med school vs. college of health professions (re: PT school)

[Carson Ranger]

I am wondering about the differences between a PT school that is part of a school of medicine and a PT school that's at a "college of health professions" that doesn't have a med school (or a hospital).

Are there particular advantages or disadvantages to either setting? Does it matter at all? The two I'm thinking about are Northwestern and Regis.

I have no intention of going to med school -- I'm definitely going to PT school -- but I'm just wondering what difference it would make being part of a med school with a hospital, or on the other hand having no med students around. Thanks.

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[PTMattI]

I have heard from some people that some schools are wanting to change the way internships are done for PT...essentially only having internships performed at cites affiliated with hospitals...which means no more private OP internships. If this were to happen then choosing a PT school that is part of a school of medicine may be a good choice. Another thing to consider is your cadaver lab...are you going to have to share your cadaver with other disciplines? Are there going to be students from other programs in your anatomy class / lab? Is the professor a PT or MD? All things to consider.

 

[DesertPT]

I have heard from some people that some schools are wanting to change the way internships are done for PT...essentially only having internships performed at cites affiliated with hospitals...which means no more private OP internships.

I seriously doubt that this will happen by the time those currently applying finish PT school, if it ever happens at all.

 

[Watson27]

I only applied to schools that are associated with a med school or research hospital. It was one of the important criteria that I based by application decisions on. It's important to me for two reasons: 1. I'm a big believer in interprofessional collaboration, so I want to be immersed in that sort of environment. When your professors are actively collaborating with other departments on research projects, it sets a great example. 2. Resources/Facilities. I don't want to go to a school that is forced to use simulation equipment because they don't have the actual resources available.

It just depends on what you want. I'm sure there are people out there who think sharing a cadaver with a few MD or PA students would be terrible. But it wouldn't bother me. In fact, I would enjoy having classes with another discipline.

 

[DesertPT]

Looks to me like Regis is substantially cheaper than Northwestern in the quick look that I took. What have you calculated to be the total tuition and fees for each school?

Regis also has a class size of 80. That would be a con for me. But if going to one school is going to cost you another $40k over the other one, then I'd still probably go with the cheaper choice.

 

[jjjDPT]

I am wondering about the differences between a PT school that is part of a school of medicine and a PT school that's at a "college of health professions" that doesn't have a med school (or a hospital).

Are there particular advantages or disadvantages to either setting? Does it matter at all? The two I'm thinking about are Northwestern and Regis.

I have no intention of going to med school -- I'm definitely going to PT school -- but I'm just wondering what difference it would make being part of a med school with a hospital, or on the other hand having no med students around. Thanks.

It will not make much of a difference either way. I am in a program that shares a campus with MD, Pharm, Dental, Nursing, OT, SLP and more. The actual amount of time you even bump elbows with students in other programs is minimal. The truth is, once you start your DPT program, you will be with your 30-80 classmates, all day, every day. You will probably even have most of your classes in the same 3 classrooms.

Now for my quick rant: Inter-professional development is great, but "collaborative learning" has become a catch phrase for schools to use to show that they are preparing their students for the future. One of the ACA's tenets is to incorporate collaborative care, and schools have latched on to the philosophy. Unfortunately, our current health care system is mostly comprised of individual professions working to protect their slice of the pie. (Stepping down from my soap box now).

Regis is a great program. I interviewed there and loved it. I was accepted but chose another school based on tuition.

 

[Carson Ranger]

-- At my Drexel interview they stressed the PT cadavers are separate from med school cadavers.

-- Regis IS cheaper than NU, but not by a mile. HOWEVER, the difference for me is I have friends I can stay with in Denver -- plus it's a shorter flight home to Tahoe.

I'm all about a larger class size and a larger faculty pool to go with it. NU's class size is even larger than Regis. Heck, if I went to undergrad for 4 years with 2,000 students, how can 80 be too many to get to know over the course of 3 years? Why not have a pool of 60 faculty to network with rather than 10 or 15? I don't see the downside of a larger class size at all -- especially if the student:faculty ratio is among the best.

 

[DesertPT]

I'm all about a larger class size and a larger faculty pool to go with it. NU's class size is even larger than Regis. Heck, if I went to undergrad for 4 years with 2,000 students, how can 80 be too many to get to know over the course of 3 years? Why not have a pool of 60 faculty to network with rather than 10 or 15? I don't see the downside of a larger class size at all -- especially if the student:faculty ratio is among the best.

True, that is definitely one way good way to look at it.

And lol try going to undergrad for 4 years with 72,000 students...

 

[jjjDPT]

-- At my Drexel interview they stressed the PT cadavers are separate from med school cadavers.

-- Regis IS cheaper than NU, but not by a mile. HOWEVER, the difference for me is I have friends I can stay with in Denver -- plus it's a shorter flight home to Tahoe.

I'm all about a larger class size and a larger faculty pool to go with it. NU's class size is even larger than Regis. Heck, if I went to undergrad for 4 years with 2,000 students, how can 80 be too many to get to know over the course of 3 years? Why not have a pool of 60 faculty to network with rather than 10 or 15? I don't see the downside of a larger class size at all -- especially if the student:faculty ratio is among the best.

Northwestern is in a cool spot in Chicago, and Chicago as a whole is an awesome city. The rent in Chicago, especially close to NU, would be very high. Rent in Denver isn't so bad. Denver is a great place to live too.

 

[DesertPT]

Knowing what I know at this point about your situation, I would probably choose Regis. You are going to save yourself quite a bit of money compared to being in Chicago. Having that med school affiliated with the university could definitely have its upside, but I bet that isn't gonna seem like such a big deal when school is over, you're out working at the So-and-So's Epic PT and Rehab shop just like everyone else, and you've got a $2000/month loan payment to deal with. But it's a complicated decision, this is just one uninformed person's opinion.

 

[Carson Ranger]

72K undergrads - yowza. how can 80 be too many fellow PT students? I don't understand the fascination with arbitrarily small class sizes. Also, NU's is one of the largest classes, but I keep telling myself if it's the oldest school in the country, they have to know what they're doing. Their faculty base is huge.

RE: Chicago rents, at least NU gives you a CTA card so you can spread out the housing search and not have additional transportation costs. That said, I'm a Mountain Man and I know I'd be more comfortable in Denver. Oh, and also there's the small detail of getting into Regis in the first place.

 

[DesertPT]

72K undergrads - yowza.

Well I guess it's more like 62,000 if you only count undergrads...and I think counting online students the total students for the whole university is actually above 80,000 as of this year.

I don't understand the fascination with arbitrarily small class sizes.

I think it is because you don't get as much individualized attention from any one teacher if classes are bigger. Yes there is more faculty so the student to faculty ratio will stay close to the same, but that doesn't mean all those faculty are teaching the courses you are in. The number of students in a given course is bound to be higher if your cohort size is bigger. But maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, and also there's the small detail of getting into Regis in the first place.

Ain't that the truth...

 

[Carson Ranger]

I think it is because you don't get as much individualized attention from any one teacher if classes are bigger.

That makes sense. But med schools have (somewhat) larger classes on average, no?
As for me, it's been a couple decades since undergrad. This time around I'll be more focused on getting individualized attention from faculty.

 

[DesertPT]

That makes sense. But med schools have (somewhat) larger classes on average, no?

No doubt. But med school is pretty different from PT school as far as I can tell. And a higher percentage of the curriculum is truly hands-on in PT school (during the didactic/pre-clinical years). Hence why PT classes are some of the smallest of any professional school program (eg. pharmacy classes are often 200 students, etc).

 

[DesertPT]

This time around I'll be more focused on getting individualized attention from faculty.

Good choice. I've never really had that opportunity with all of my classes having 150-400 students in them. So I'm looking forward to transitioning to PT school and not having every class be in a full size auditorium.

 

[starrsgirl]

This is completely opinion and may vary by school: an informal polling of my friends seems to show that if you go to a med school affiliated PT school, you will get your butt kicked the first year. (Ie shared anatomy department with med students and PAs). I wish I had known that I would be in "med school" the first semester.....my experience is VERY different than friends I have in other schools. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic education level, but in my case I specifically chose NOT to go to med school because I'm balancing a ton of stuff on my plate....now I feel like I might as well have gone. The description of "studying a lot" does not even come close to capturing the work load level. It is easily double and triple friends at other PT schools who I would say are similar academic levels to me.

 

[OneWarrior]

72K undergrads - yowza. how can 80 be too many fellow PT students? I don't understand the fascination with arbitrarily small class sizes.

I had the same train of thought when applying to PT school, is there a substantial difference in the learning environment by attending a school with a smaller class size versus a larger class size? After completing two semesters of PT school, I believe the biggest difference in the learning environment comes more from the student to faculty ratio than the actual class size. However, in my humble opinion, I believe that attending a school with a smaller class size versus a larger class size is far better in facilitating your ability to acquire the knowledge and skills that you will need to be a competent practitioner. For example, when you begin to learn how to complete examinations and provide therapeutic interventions during your lab time in school, I believe having a small class size trumps a large class size. In my cohort, we have 30 students and we typically have split labs, so that there is 1-2 professors per 15 students. When a professor is giving a demonstration on how to perform an examination technique etc., you will want to have a clear line of sight and be able to get as close as possible to the demonstration. Learning these techniques involves paying attention to a number of things that are occurring simultaneously such as hand placement, positioning of your body relative to the patient, the positioning of the patient, and the actual steps involved in replicating the technique. In addition to this, when you need clarification on a technique, it is obvious to see why having a better faculty to student ratio in the lab can be beneficial. I cannot speak for PT schools with large class sizes because I'm not sure how they organize their labs. However, knowing what I know now, I would have wanted to ask this question during the application process because I believe it makes a huge difference in the learning environment. Imagine if you have 50 or more students in a lab and only 1 or 2 professors giving demonstrations and providing clarification on those demonstrations. You may think, how many individuals would really need clarification? Well, when you are palpating for things you've never palpated before, manipulating body parts, and told to 'feel' for the end-feel during tests, I can say just about every single person will seek some level of clarification. With all that being said, if the school is able to offset the large class size with a good faculty to student ratio, especially during lab instruction, then the large class size should not drastically impact the overall learning environment.

 

[Mad Jack]

Our PT students get their own cadaver for dissection care of access to our cadaver lab. Only advantage I can really see between their education and the one at my undergrad.

 

[AlanWattsBlues]

With all that being said, if the school is able to offset the large class size with a good faculty to student ratio, especially during lab instruction, then the large class size should not drastically impact the overall learning environment.

Agreed. I don't know how it runs in your program, but there will generally be one person providing instruction in addition to a couple professors floating around to provide feedback during the hands-on portion of lab. Though the professors are clearly trying to stay on the same page, you 'll see differences in perspective and technique emerge pretty quickly. I value getting exposed to that. I'd be in a bad place if I thought there was One Right Way to do things. (though as a caveat, if you get shown different ways to do something, but only one way is graded as correct and the others are graded as wrong, then it's a bad situation).

 

[NewTestament]

After completing two semesters of PT school, I believe the biggest difference in the learning environment comes more from the student to faculty ratio than the actual class size. However, in my humble opinion, I believe that attending a school with a smaller class size versus a larger class size is far better in facilitating your ability to acquire the knowledge and skills that you will need to be a competent practitioner. For example, when you begin to learn how to complete examinations and provide therapeutic interventions during your lab time in school, I believe having a small class size trumps a large class size.

I used to think that a smaller class size would be better but I no longer believe that. But my program has 57 students, and I started with 20-25 other OT students. These days with e-mail it's not hard to ask the professor questions. Most people never contact the professor anyway. In our cadaver lab, our class was split into three different groups so there were only 25 students in the lab each time. I never felt the professors didn't have time to answer my questions or help me.

 

[OneWarrior]

Agreed. I don't know how it runs in your program, but there will generally be one person providing instruction in addition to a couple professors floating around to provide feedback during the hands-on portion of lab.

The way your program operates, when it comes to the hands-on aspects of lab, is almost exactly how my program provides instruction for the musculoskeletal PT class I recently finished. One professor provides the overall instruction and one or two other professors float around to provide feedback and clarification.

Though the professors are clearly trying to stay on the same page, you'll see differences in perspective and technique emerge pretty quickly. I value getting exposed to that. I'd be in a bad place if I thought there was One Right Way to do things. (though as a caveat, if you get shown different ways to do something, but only one way is graded as correct and the others are graded as wrong, then it's a bad situation).

Initially, I was concerned about this in my program because I also noticed right from the beginning that each professor had a slightly different approach to giving physical examinations and particular examination techniques. During practicals, you never know which professor will be proctoring your lab examination. It certainly would be a bad situation, if you are shown one way to perform a technique and then marked as incorrect by another professor because they do it another way. Fortunately for me in my program, whenever that situation arose during practicals, as long as you were able to provide rationale for doing something a certain way you would be in the clear. I agree, getting exposed to the differences in perspective and technique is a valuable component to one's physical therapy education. Having options definitely makes it easier to incorporate in your own approach what you feel works best for you.

 

[OneWarrior]

I used to think that a smaller class size would be better but I no longer believe that. But my program has 57 students, and I started with 20-25 other OT students. These days with e-mail it's not hard to ask the professor questions. Most people never contact the professor anyway. In our cadaver lab, our class was split into three different groups so there were only 25 students in the lab each time. I never felt the professors didn't have time to answer my questions or help me.

I would generally agree. Email does make it easy to ask professor questions. However, when it comes to lab instruction, I would find it relatively difficult to ask a question in email about a technique or a particular approach to the physical examination. My personal preference is that I gain more from the face-to-face contact when asking these sort of questions. In addition to this, it helps facilitate the communication process, saving time for both myself and the professor. As we all know or those who are soon to be first year students will come to know, time can be hard to come by in physical therapy school.

A significant portion of the core classes in my program have a heavy emphasis on orthopedics. The rationale for my statement regarding class size was based primarily on the amount of time spent in lab performing hands-on aspects of my program's curriculum. I believe that for certain courses such as neuroscience, pharmacology, etc. the class size has no negative influence on the learning environment. In my opinion, the only significant difference is seen during lab instruction when it comes to class size. However, even this can be offset by a good faculty to student ratio and result in no significant impact to the overall learning environment.

 

[BlueBlue8]

-- At my Drexel interview they stressed the PT cadavers are separate from med school cadavers.

-- Regis IS cheaper than NU, but not by a mile. HOWEVER, the difference for me is I have friends I can stay with in Denver -- plus it's a shorter flight home to Tahoe.

I'm all about a larger class size and a larger faculty pool to go with it. NU's class size is even larger than Regis. Heck, if I went to undergrad for 4 years with 2,000 students, how can 80 be too many to get to know over the course of 3 years? Why not have a pool of 60 faculty to network with rather than 10 or 15? I don't see the downside of a larger class size at all -- especially if the student:faculty ratio is among the best.

Also, regarding large class size. That means a greater chance of you finding friends and avoiding people you don't like. Trust me.