Med school vs dental school mentality

[deleted678432]

I’ve been browsing the medical school forums lately, (its fun, there’s a ton of drama) and I’ve found that there’s a big difference in mentality of choosing your school. In the dental school threads, you seem to be sent to a firing squad if you chose a more expensive private school over a cheaper state school. Over in the med forums, however, the majority vote is to take the hit financially and go with the more reputable school even if it is a lot more. Some people, I’ve seen, even regret accepting a full ride scholarship that resulted in them turning down a more prestigious school. What’s up with this noticeable difference?


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[InformMe123]

I've heard that difference is that most dental students do not specialize while med students do, so going to a more reputable school helps them with their goals. Additionally, the price difference isn't as large in med than dental. In general the name of the school doesn't matter that much even in medicine but there are some intangibles that could help them such as having pass/fail, no ranking, research opportunities, department of the speciality they want (to get good lor), etc. In dental schools, this also exists to some degree (like for OS) but the price difference between lower and more expensive schools are too large to be worth those benefits to some.

 

[ncide]

The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties.

 

[Medin2017]

I’ve been browsing the medical school forums lately, (its fun, there’s a ton of drama) and I’ve found that there’s a big difference in mentality of choosing your school. In the dental school threads, you seem to be sent to a firing squad if you chose a more expensive private school over a cheaper state school. Over in the med forums, however, the majority vote is to take the hit financially and go with the more reputable school even if it is a lot more. Some people, I’ve seen, even regret accepting a full ride scholarship that resulted in them turning down a more prestigious school. What’s up with this noticeable difference?


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Because like 50% of predents/dental students have 0 interest in specializing. Among the other 50%, 1/2 of those aren't extremely serious about it so aren't motivated enough to be top of their class. And among the last 25%, probably more than 1/2 of them are confident they can be top 10 at their school and the rest choose Ivies for that extra edge or b/c they got scholarships or parental support. I totally made up these numbers, but you will see when you go to school that it's a reasonable guesstimate. When I came into dental school that's how it was- a large chunk dead set on general dentistry (parents owners, already married, etc), a large chunk "interested" (not so after their first B's), and the rest of us (probably like 10-30% of my class) who are still in the running.

I am still a firm believer that ivies give you an edge, but it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth the price.

 

[allantois]

Most expensive med schools are 50k at the most, compare that to dental 70k+

 

[The Anhedonia]

Medicine: residency is a requirement for all specialties, and all residencies rate applicant depending on USMLE + school pedigree (Among other things), thus school reputation regardless of innate quality of training is very important for medical school applicants when considering their futures

Dentistry: residency is mostly optional, the acceptance standards are somewhat nebulous when compared to medicine (think about the multiple exams [NBDE.NBME. that new stupid test, etc]), and school pedigree is actually NOT significant.

 

[314117]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

 

[Medin2017]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

It probably does if you want to go to a top institution. Harvard's step score average is 240 but has so many more people matching MGH than a state school with like a 235-238 average. You can just check match lists to tell can't you?

 

[ncide]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

My brother goes to Johns Hopkins medical school and says to look at match lists. Matriculants of his school go to other top programs, and it's clear that there is an advantage once you look.

 

[Medin2017]

My brother goes to Johns Hopkins medical school and says to look at match lists. Matriculants of his school go to other top programs, and it's clear that there is an advantage once you look.

yep. look at any ivy vs a state school with close step averages and it's not even close. Someone from harvard with a 240 probably would beat out a state student with 255+. Medicine is not the same as dentistry. Academics, research, and prestige matter a lot more. Just take a few glances at the premed/med forums where people say pay 100k more for the big name/rank.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

No it's not.

It's not as extreme as law school, where a top 15 program grants essentially a different degree than the rest, but it definitely matters more in medicine than in dentistry.

 

[Cello]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

No, actually it isn't. For example, my wife's residency didn't take DO students, and they didn't accept people who weren't from a top MD program. Period.

 

[schmoob]

"The name of the school certainly does matter in medicine. It plays a lot in opening doors for you in specialties."

This is completely false.

No it's not.

 

[deleted678432]

It’s definitely a bigger factor I think. There’s exceptions, like my friend who got into a surgical residency at Stanford coming out of a mid/low tier state school. But the vast majority of residencies I think definitely look at school name.


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[InformMe123]

Reputation of med school does not matter as much as you think, i think its a correlation thing, people going to better schools are more likely to wanna get into more competitive specialties and get higher scores, etc. It does matter for academics but reputation matters for academics always.

 

[Medin2017]

Reputation of med school does not matter as much as you think, i think its a correlation thing, people going to better schools are more likely to wanna get into more competitive specialties and get higher scores, etc. It does matter for academics but reputation matters for academics always.

You aren't explaining my comments about how ivies with similar or barely higher step scores are matching way more in prestigious specialties and prestigious programs within every specialty. It pretty much directly goes against what you're saying here.

 

[Medin2017]

I will shut down this thread right here.

step 1: go here- Official Match Lists 2017...

step 2: Control F harvard, hopkins, and baylor.

How can you explain these match lists? Baylor is known to have the highest step score in the nation whenever averages are released (even higher than harvard from the ones I have seen). Not only that, it's a pretty high ranking school (higher than most state schools). As you can see in this 2017 most recent match list, harvard and Hopkins are matching way more prestigious programs within EVERY specialty. This literally destroys anyone's opinion on "hey it's all about the individual not the school!". If you think like 80% of students from harvard are matching MGH or the huge amount of Hopkins students matching Hopkins residencies is a coincidence, you need to think hard about your biases.

This even takes into account how baylor is top 10-15ish on most lists as well as the fact that it's in the huge houston medical center- I doubt they are lacking in research opportunities. Not even counting the fact that you can research out of state too if you apply.

One more thing to note is the "incestuous" nature of the match. Look how penn matches many students into penn residencies, harvard into MGH, Hopkins into Hopkins, stanford into stanford, etc. Even if you think name doesn't matter, going to one of these big name schools obviously has a factor in attending their big name residency.

^understanding this requires you to know what an average is too. If the average step of baylor is 240 or harvard is 238 for example, you can't say harvard kids are all outliers. They're clearly being outperformed as a whole on the 1 test most medical students and docs say is one of the if not biggest factors of the residency application by students at baylor, the lower ranking school.

I know it is annoying to say someone who worked harder or did better in undergrad and went to a stronger med school will have large advantages over someone who did worse in undergrad then killed it in med school, but that's the fact as shown by these neutral match lists.


Not sure if I'm allowed to link this, but here it clearly shows baylor having the highest step score MEDIAN (I thought it was average- median is even more important). 3 points higher than harvard (246 vs 243) and a whopping 8 points higher than Hopkins.

 

[InformMe123]

Cuz they prob have easier access to research and LORS that will help them but the school name itself isn't the factor most likely. Additionaly those ivies have no ranking or p/f that helps them too.

 

[Medin2017]

Cuz they prob have easier access to research and LORS that will help them but the school name itself isn't the factor most likely. Additionaly those ivies have no ranking or p/f that helps them too.

First read what I put about baylor research- how the hell is a baylor student going to be lacking in research or access to research in the freaking Houston medical center which is listed here Medical centers in the United States - Wikipedia along with Hopkins and MGH? A top 5-10 medical center in the whole entire USA. Also you ignored the fact that baylor kids can research wherever they want during summers or research years...

Secondly, unlike dentistry, many medical schools including baylor are pass fail

Thirdly, if you think baylor students have low access to quality LORs you are being naive as well.

What's important to note is that the ranking of these schools isn't even that far apart (maybe top 5 vs top 15- damn close). But the match lists tell a different story.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

You don't even need to go into all that; residency directors actually openly acknowledge that they look at Med School pedigree. Go look at the NMRP surveys. It's not a secret, dude.

 

[InformMe123]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This gives you the importance of "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" in matching per specialty, it is listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35). Now Harvard is def an exception, i feel like going to Harvard for anything will give you the advantage even for dental specialties. In the end, prestige doesn't matter for medicine if you do not want to go into academia. You can still match competitive specialties from any school.

 

[Medin2017]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This gives you the importance of "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" in matching per specialty, it is listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35). Now Harvard is def an exception, i feel like going to Harvard for anything will give you the advantage even for dental specialties. In the end, prestige doesn't matter for medicine if you do not want to go into academia. You can still match competitive specialties from any school.

Dude I've literally posted 3 different prestigious schools not just harvard... I listed hopkins and penn as well. And you can look at yale and stanford on that 2017 list too. It's like you aren't even reading any information. You aren't (and can't) refuting any of my posts but instead are just commenting as if you're talking to yourself.

I can say school pedigree is rank 23/35, but if 5 schools barely higher rank than another school (WITH HIGHER STEP SCORES) all have an extremely different (and better) match list, the statement means nothing.

You don't even need to go into all that; residency directors actually openly acknowledge that they look at Med School pedigree. Go look at the NMRP surveys. It's not a secret, dude.

This person isn't really trying to refute points or speak intelligently- just mostly saying the same thing over and over like a parrot. At least his misinformation is only in the dental forums and premeds/med students are smart enough to look at online sources. Explains why those match lists are so popular over there on the med forums.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This gives you the importance of "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" in matching per specialty, it is listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35). Now Harvard is def an exception, i feel like going to Harvard for anything will give you the advantage even for dental specialties. In the end, prestige doesn't matter for medicine if you do not want to go into academia. You can still match competitive specialties from any school.

You can.

Well, you can as long as it's not a Caribbean school, where even slaughtering the Steps will get you an IM rotation nine times out of ten.

You can in DO, but that's mainly because they've had DO residencies set aside, which they're looking to eliminate.

You can at a lower MD, but it's a liiittle harder to do than at a mid MD, which is a liiiittle harder to come from than a high tier MD. And as Medin2017 already pointed out, even the "lacking for nothing" programs like Baylor come short year after year to the name programs which have no real tangible advantages over a Baylor besides brand/network type of stuff.

And importantly, at the end of the day, the difference between two medical schools is never 150k+, as they might be for a dental student, so the gradations we're discussing at the MD level justify the choice.

I'm still mulling offers from UConn, SB, and Penn, and Penn is running a solid third right now. That would be completely and totally nonsensical for a med student.

 

[Medin2017]

You can.

Well, you can as long as it's not a Caribbean school, where even slaughtering the Steps will get you an IM rotation nine times out of ten.

You can in DO, but that's mainly because they've had DO residencies set aside, which they're looking to eliminate.

You can at a lower MD, but it's a liiittle harder to do than at a mid MD, which is a liiiittle harder to come from than a high tier MD.

And importantly, at the end of the day, the difference between two medical schools is never 150k+, as they might be for a dental student, so the subtle gradation we're discussing at the MD level is much easier to justify.

I'm still mulling offers from UConn, SB, and Penn, and Penn is running a solid third right now. That would be completely and totally nonsensical for a med student.

Off topic but I would choose uconn if I was doing OMFS if I were you. Pure p/f and 7/7 match recently is pretty sweet. I would look into the other specialties and what matters in each of them, but AFAIK ortho and omfs are the "most competitive", so if you were going for say peds it might matter a tiny bit less. At my state school alone, like 80% of people match peds, and there were like 10+ applicants. If ortho, I think a pure p/f would be awesome and then you can apply to and have more time to do meaningful research.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Off topic but I would choose uconn if I was doing OMFS if I were you. Pure p/f and 7/7 match recently is pretty sweet. I would look into the other specialties and what matters in each of them, but AFAIK ortho and omfs are the "most competitive", so if you were going for say peds it might matter a tiny bit less. At my state school alone, like 80% of people match peds, and there were like 10+ applicants. If ortho, I think a pure p/f would be awesome and then you can apply to and have more time to do meaningful research.

Hah - I'm happy to talk it out with anybody who's willing since I have one day left.

I'm definitely not doing OMFS (married, don't want to put wife through that residency), and I might even want to do gen dent. So then SB looks appealing, but wife wants to do CRNA which would help us demolish our loans, but at SB, the nearest CRNA program is still too far. I loved UConn and Penn both - UConn makes the most logical sense, but I'm also afraid that they're going to kick my ass with the way all the students talk. On the bright side, they all seem to enjoy the ass-kicking they're receiving.

 

[Medin2017]

Hah - I'm happy to talk it out with anybody who's willing since I have one day left.

I'm definitely not doing OMFS (married, don't want to put wife through that residency), and I might even want to do gen dent. So then SB looks appealing, but wife wants to do CRNA which would help us demolish our loans, but at SB, the nearest CRNA program is still too far. I loved UConn and Penn both - UConn makes the most logical sense, but I'm also afraid that they're going to kick my ass with the way all the students talk. On the bright side, they all seem to enjoy the ass-kicking they're receiving.

If I was 100% set on general dentistry, I would choose the school with the most requirements and the least stupid curriculum (e.g. PBL, mandatory 8-5 courses, huge amounts of lab work, anal profs). With grades not mattering, effort should be placed into learning about business, being faster at hand skills, and learning to be sociable if you aren't. That's what I would focus on anyway.

UConn is p/f: no matter how much of an ass kicking you receive, scoring 70/100 is easier than 90/100 unless they are giving MIT level engineering courses. Would 100% not let that affect you, but I will say this: a medical curriculum has very little benefit for a general dentist. I took a look at some medical stuff for the CBSE, and it is indeed harder than dentistry by a fair margin, though I still stand by the belief that scoring a 70 in a medical school is easier than a 90 in dental school. Otherwise med schools would have people failing CONSTANTLY.

Think about it this way if you are concerned: An average med school has say a 3.8 gpa acceptance, an average dental school maybe 3.6ish. Even accounting for this difference, you should be able to assume that it's much harder for all those kids with 3.6s to get a's in every single class than for all the 3.8s to pass medical school right? If not, then state schools would have like 70% of kids with 4.0s across the board which is surely not the case.

People like to say they have it tough. I whine like a little girl sometimes even when I'm doing really well in all my classes. It feels good to vent, but I would definitely be whining a lot less if I was just going for 70s on everything.

 

[Cello]

Cuz they prob have easier access to research and LORS that will help them but the school name itself isn't the factor most likely. Additionaly those ivies have no ranking or p/f that helps them too.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This gives you the importance of "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" in matching per specialty, it is listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35). Now Harvard is def an exception, i feel like going to Harvard for anything will give you the advantage even for dental specialties. In the end, prestige doesn't matter for medicine if you do not want to go into academia. You can still match competitive specialties from any school.

No. As a chief, my wife had a say in who was admitted to their program, and yes, school was a big factor to the residency director. Also, not all schools produce equally competent residents, and standardized exams are a poor way of assessing the quality of students coming out of medical school. That is likely the biggest reason that her residency only trusted students coming from top programs with a letter from someone in the field who mattered. As I said earlier, the residency director absolutely would not accept DO students. I don't really care what some online survey says, I know from inside what happened at one of the top ortho programs in the nation.

 

[2TH MVR]

Medicine is life and death with huge consequences requiring reputable schools and training. Dentistry is becoming/or is a service industry not dependent on the prestige of the dental school. Therefore .... you go to the cheapest dental school possible. Graduate. Learn business and people skills. Be successful. Not whining or complaining. No way I would be a primary care MD. Pretty happy with my orthodontist lifestyle after attending a cheap, but competative state dental school.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Medicine is life and death with huge consequences requiring reputable schools and training. Dentistry is becoming/or is a service industry not dependent on the prestige of the dental school. Therefore .... you go to the cheapest dental school possible. Graduate. Learn business and people skills. Be successful. Not whining or complaining. No way I would be a primary care MD. Pretty happy with my orthodontist lifestyle after attending a cheap, but competative state dental school.

Eh.

I agree that the non life and death thing changes your mentality.
While I'm on the "school matters" side of the argument for medicine, I see this as kind of an insult to the brutal training that low-tier MD and DO students go through - and dental, too. Anybody who practices one of these fields in the US (including Carib MDs with US residencies, international dentists with advanced standing degrees from the US, etc) has put themselves through more soul-sucking training than 99.9% of people in the world will go through.

I tend to kick back at people in medical fields who think that they're God's gift to the world, and I know brilliant firemen, teachers, trash guys, etc, whose day to day lives are much tougher than many in the medical world. But I don't understand downplaying what a pain in the ass it is to get the degree (along with a couple of other fields - many engineering disciplines come to mind).

 

[321931]

I’ve been browsing the medical school forums lately, (its fun, there’s a ton of drama) and I’ve found that there’s a big difference in mentality of choosing your school. In the dental school threads, you seem to be sent to a firing squad if you chose a more expensive private school over a cheaper state school. Over in the med forums, however, the majority vote is to take the hit financially and go with the more reputable school even if it is a lot more. Some people, I’ve seen, even regret accepting a full ride scholarship that resulted in them turning down a more prestigious school. What’s up with this noticeable difference?


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I’ve only had maybe one patient a year ask where I graduate from. They just don’t care.

As long as you are in network, bill them correctly and are a personable guy then nothing else matters.

The big thing is in network and take my insurance plan. See the trend of dentistry?

 

[DDS9994]

I’ve only had maybe one patient a year ask where I graduate from. They just don’t care.

As long as you are in network, bill them correctly and are a personable guy then nothing else matters.

The big thing is in network and take my insurance plan. See the trend of dentistry?

Yep! The whole OON offices and ffs models are dying out for the most part. Great skills does not automatically translate to financial success sadly.

 

[pikaboo]

MDs get compensated through a lot of different options for the financial hit (such as big pharma), you don't have those privileges after dental school.

 

[Cello]

MDs get compensated through a lot of different options for the financial hit (such as big pharma), you don't have those privileges after dental school.

How do you mean? After the Sunshine Act, the Medicare/Medicaid anti-kickback statue (see US v Brown), and some state laws (California for example) banning gifts to physicians, that practice is mostly a thing of the past. The days of paid vacations to Key West and stock options in pharma companies are largely over. I know it isn't completely gone, but it seems that only the older physicians ever talk about what it was like.

 

[pikaboo]

How do you mean? After the Sunshine Act, the Medicare/Medicaid anti-kickback statue (see US v Brown), and some state laws (California for example) banning gifts to physicians, that practice is mostly a thing of the past. The days of paid vacations to Key West and stock options in pharma companies are largely over. I know it isn't completely gone, but it seems that only the older physicians ever talk about what it was like.

Loopholes my friend, loopholes.

 

[InformMe123]

Patients don't care where their physicians went to school either

 

[WaveRace]

Patients don't care where their physicians went to school either

I mean, n=1 here, but that's not true in my case. I had to have a major surgery last year, and you better believe that I did a ton of research on potential surgeons before I chose one. School/residency were major factors in my choice of surgeon.

 

[DDS9994]

I mean, n=1 here, but that's not true in my case. I had to have a major surgery last year, and you better believe that I did a ton of research on potential surgeons before I chose one. School/residency were major factors in my choice of surgeon.

Go Blue, class of 2003

 

[WaveRace]

Go Blue, class of 2003

Go Blue!

 

[Cello]

Patients don't care where their physicians went to school either

Definitely not true. Again, wife gets patients all the time who looked her up online and chose her based on her background.

 

[InformMe123]

I am not convinced. I highly doubt MOST patients choose doctors based on where they went to med school. Maybe it might be true for concierge style practices like plastic surgery. Maybe its true for some other doctors. If anything its usually based on insurance or referrals or family/friends/online recommendations.Where you went to medical school really doesn't change how good of a doctor you can become.

 

[schmoob]

Where you went to medical school really doesn't change how good of a doctor you can become.

Oh boy...

 

[InformMe123]

Oh boy...

yessir

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

Where you went to med school doesn't change how good of a doctor you can become very much. No one learns how to be doctor in med school. Every single medical student across the country is learning the same exact things because we're graduating a generation of doctors whose didactic education ultimately boils down to a couple qBanks and whose clinical education is essentially AP Following People Around with a minor in List Updating. With that said, where you went to medical school can matter for residency placement, and mileage will vary. Residency is much more important in training as it is where you do learn to become a doctor and where your ceiling on just how good of a doctor you can be (which is a lot more subjective than SDN posters would have you believe).

 

[W19]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This gives you the importance of "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" in matching per specialty, it is listed as the 23rd most influential factor (out of 35). Now Harvard is def an exception, i feel like going to Harvard for anything will give you the advantage even for dental specialties. In the end, prestige doesn't matter for medicine if you do not want to go into academia. You can still match competitive specialties from any school.

These PDs just want to be politically correct... As someone going thru the match right now, I can tell you school name (i.e. rank) definitely matters...