Med schools basically don't give a rat's a$$ about undergrad school

[Jeffy]

Based on the obvious academic discrepancy between different undergraduate institutions, wouldn't you expect med schools to take this into consideration more when they weigh applicants against one another? I personally would argue that it is MUCH easier to schedule plenty of EC's and a higher GPA at some schools versus another. If this is the case, which I think it is, why do med schools pretty much only consider undergrad schools when theyre comparing 30 students with the same GPA, MCAT's, etc.? Anyone have any answers?

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[SMW]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by BowB4Jeff:
• why do med schools pretty much only consider undergrad schools when theyre comparing 30 students with the same GPA, MCAT's, etc.? Anyone have any answers?••••• I'm not sure this is the case (and not really sure what this is). But I have to disagree with the title of your thread.

 

[oldman]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by BowB4Jeff:
•Based on the obvious academic discrepancy between different undergraduate institutions, wouldn't you expect med schools to take this into consideration more when they weigh applicants against one another? I personally would argue that it is MUCH easier to schedule plenty of EC's and a higher GPA at some schools versus another. If this is the case, which I think it is, why do med schools pretty much only consider undergrad schools when theyre comparing 30 students with the same GPA, MCAT's, etc.? Anyone have any answers?•••••how do you know that "med schools pretty much only consider undergrad schools...when theyre [sic] comparing 30 students...?"

it truly is a mysterious process when they analyze who gets into medical school. being in a lesser known school might give you a chance to shine over a big name school. at the same time, coming out of a big name school they will either know of how difficult your curriculum might be or have a better feel of how students from that institution perform in medical school.

 

[Jeffy]

From what I've heard (to be honest none was actual Fact), an applicant's undergrad institution keys-in mainly when students with similar applications are being weighed against one another, ie, two students with similar GPA, MCAT, EC's, geographic location, etc. Otherwise, numbers speak more than anything else. To be honest, some people I know that have been accepted in the past came from such crappy schools that I can't believe that their 3.7 GPA would actually displace someone from a top 20 school with a 3.3. Obviously other factors come into play as well, but I'm sorry, getting a 3.7 at some schools is not that hard whereas a 3.3 could be gruelling soemwhere else.

 

[Jeffy]

And by the way, sorry about the title of the topic, it is a pretty inaccurate statement in retrospect.

 

[THE instiGATOR]

Some people can't afford to go to prestigious private schools and have to "settle" for less prestigious state schools. Why should they be penelized for this? They shouldn't, and this is why med schools shouldn't put too much weight on one's school. Unfortunately, they do.

The school doesn't make you...you make the school.

 

[r124c41]

"Some people can't afford to go to prestigious private schools and have to "settle" for less prestigious state schools." Absolutely false! It's best to have parents rich enough to pay the full $35k/yr out of their chump change. Next best is to be dirt poor and have most of the $35k be grants from the school. Worst is to be middle, middle class [say $50k-$150k/yr gross] in which case the FAFSA forces the parents to borrow $20k-$25k/yr. Many of the latter parents are unwilling to take on $100k of debt [they would rather have shiney new cars or adequate pension plans] and so their kids are frozen out of the most prestigious undergrad schools. If you had the resume for the Ivyies but went to State instead, it's your parents who screwed you, not society. So stop whining.

 

[Jeffy]

I know plenty of people who were able to go to the school of their choice because of financial aid packages, and not just the low income students either. I'm middle class and the only reason I was able to go to a private school was because my school is very generous. Many private schools end up being cheaper than state schools because of this - mine is.

 

[Doctora Foxy]

Just another reason why the MCATS make so much sense.

 

[THE instiGATOR]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by r124c41:
•"Some people can't afford to go to prestigious private schools and have to "settle" for less prestigious state schools." Absolutely false! It's best to have parents rich enough to pay the full $35k/yr out of their chump change. Next best is to be dirt poor and have most of the $35k be grants from the school. Worst is to be middle, middle class [say $50k-$150k/yr gross] in which case the FAFSA forces the parents to borrow $20k-$25k/yr. Many of the latter parents are unwilling to take on $100k of debt [they would rather have shiney new cars or adequate pension plans] and so their kids are frozen out of the most prestigious undergrad schools. If you had the resume for the Ivyies but went to State instead, it's your parents who screwed you, not society. So stop whining.•••••Sure nuff. Guess I did get "screwed" by the parents who invested so much in raising me. They happen to be at the lower end of your $50-$150 range, and were in the process of purchasing their first home when I headed off to college. Why should I expect them to go $100K in debt so I can get a measly little undergrad degree? I shouldn't, so I opted to take the scholarship route.

So, I guess it is not "absolutely false". Maybe I could have gone to a "better" school if I had been selfish and insisted my parents take on a huge debt load.

I didn't whine a bit in my previous post. You, for certain, did act like a dick in yours.

 

[daisygirl]

•••quote:••• I didn't whine a bit in my previous post. You, for certain, did act like a dick in yours.•••• I second that

 

[appomattox]

rc1241:

1. It's Ivies, not Ivyies.
2. Don't use the Ivy League as your convenient whipping boy. It has the best damn financial aid in town, as compared to prestigious private schools, like . . . Emory, for example.
3. Yes, your parents screwed you, but society did too, by deciding not to adequately fund higher education. All German students walk away from school debt free, even doctors and lawyers. Do you know what a year tuition is for Oxford and Cambridge? GBP 1,075. American society (or the government, whatever) screwed you.

 

[Epi]

I think it would be best if we all just calmed down a little.

 

[borya_2002]

COMMIE DIARRHEA SHUT UP.
if german doctors are debt and their society is so good, why are they so eager to move to US?

and about schools, i'm sure you can get great education in a state school. but of course you have reason to complain if you were accepted and couldn't afford it. but what's even worse is the ****ing affirmatvie action.

 

[BlackPuma]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Epi:
•I think it would be best if we all just calmed down a little.
•••••I like the way you think :wink: your going to UCSF aren't? no wonder you're so calm

 

[THE instiGATOR]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by borya_2002:
•and about schools, i'm sure you can get great education in a state school. but of course you have reason to complain if you were accepted and couldn't afford it.•••••Yup yup, tis me. UF provided a great education, though, so I will never complain. I was just proposing a reason why med schools should not place so much emphasis on the school at which you received you degree.

About Germany...It's friggin' awesome. Don't dis my motherland, man!!! :wink:

 

[borya_2002]

do med schools really care so much about where you went? i mean if a 3.5 from harvard is judged same as 3.8 from a solid state school, it sounds fair. though you might argue the state school graded just as hard. but you can at least make up for it on the mcat, or try to get a 3.8 anyway.

but when schools pick someone with 3.2 over 3.6 just based on race, that's higher degree of unfairness.

 

[Doctora Foxy]

ignorance is bliss

 

[THE instiGATOR]

Bliss is ignorance.

Damn, everything seems Socratean when you're toasted! :wink: I've got to finish a paper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> This should be interesting!

 

[rajneel1]

i do think undergrad school counts. if you did a few years at community college, you might be asked about it.
medical schools do have a feel for differences in curriculum and grading among undergraduate schools. they know that a 3.8 from UC Berkeley and a 3.8 from some other UCs are not comparable.
and some schools will compare all the applicants from one undergrad and then offer interviews only to the top applicants from that one undergrad.
you should always make the best out of where you go (goes for med school also) however!

 

[rxfudd]

This topic has been hacked at to death, and no one ever brings up the difference in programs within a school.

A degree in biophysical chemistry at Cornfield University, USA is gonna be a hell of a lot harder than a degree in advanced cutlery from Harvard. It not only matters where you went, but what you studied while you were there. The blanket statement that a 3.5 at an Ivy is equal to a 3.8 at a non-ivy is completely ridiculous.

 

[Peter Parker]

In response to rxfudd, that is why BCPM GPA's on AMCAS exist -- so that there is more focus on the grades for the required science courses. The required science courses must always be taken regardless of major.

 

[trouta]

Your undergrad institution must play some role in the process. I was lucky enough to go to a relatively prestigious school and more than once an interviewer said something to the effect of "its always nice to have students from your school applying."

Also, our advisor always told us that GPAs were not compared straight across and that if an adcom knows anything about the school you are from they should know how to look at your GPA. With the problem of grade inflation being rampant, this is an important distinction to make and I think a correct one.

However, those who could not afford a "good" school should not be penalized, but if their GPA is good enough they should get in any way.

 

[praying4MD]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by rxfudd:
•A degree in biophysical chemistry at Cornfield University, USA is gonna be a hell of a lot harder than a degree in advanced cutlery from Harvard.•••••Advanced cutlery? Man, even in a mundane thread like this fudd always makes me laugh! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

 

[NUgirl]

i think that undergrad makes a difference (although its unclear how much). I got a low MCAT score and my gpa is only a 3.6. But I have been fortunate to get interviews. I think that my undergrad name played a huge role in making up for my GPA and MCAT. And thank goodness!

My interviewer at Loyola actually said that "Im surprised youre interviewing so late (April, cause my app wasnt in till Jan) cause we usually interview people very early on in the cycle." His words, not mine.

I think that it may play SOME role (b/c you had to get in there so it shows how you worked in hs), but I dont think that it's the deciding factor because there are so MANY great schools (state and private) out there.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by appomattox:
•rc1241:

1. It's Ivies, not Ivyies.
2. Don't use the Ivy League as your convenient whipping boy. It has the best damn financial aid in town, as compared to prestigious private schools, like . . . Emory, for example.
3. Yes, your parents screwed you, but society did too, by deciding not to adequately fund higher education. All German students walk away from school debt free, even doctors and lawyers. Do you know what a year tuition is for Oxford and Cambridge? GBP 1,075. American society (or the government, whatever) screwed you.•••••Wow Appomattox. Claiming that the gov't screwed us because the lack of their involvement which actually encourages personal responsiblity Silly socialist.

 

[NUgirl]

Oops, I meant he said we interview people from your school early on in the cycle, not we interview people early.

 

[Peter Parker]

NUGirl, just wondering what kind of luck with admissions you've had with your stats coming from NU? I'm in a similar situation to you and I go to NU also.

 

[Jeffy]

•••quote:••• I think that my undergrad name played a huge role in making up for my GPA and MCAT. ••••Think the top-notch liberals have the same effect on adcoms as Northwestern or UChicago, for example?

 

[Peter Parker]

[/QUOTE]Think the top-notch liberals have the same effect on adcoms as Northwestern or UChicago, for example?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Yes. Perhaps even better.

 

[Jeffy]

Hey Spidey, why would you say "even better?" I kow that the liberals have a damn good reputation of educating undergrads, but still, wouldn't you assume that a school like yours still carries a certain amount of name reputation that goes unbeaten?

 

[Peter Parker]

BowB4Jeff,
I think some of the top liberal arts schools (i.e. Swarthmore, Amherst, the Claremonts) might be better than NU (and its peer schools) for a few reasons...
1. When you're applying, med schools want institutional diversity. Since liberal arts schools have fewer students in general applying to medical school, these students are 'desired' more. This is why Swarthmore has a &gt;90% acceptance rate for its pre-meds and NU has ~60%. Look at it this way: How many NU pre-meds versus Swarthmore pre-meds would an average UChicago interviewer face in an application cycle? Just by there being less Swarthmore applicants, the ones that do apply are likely to stand out more. The NU pre-med is relatively 'common' to the Swarthmore pre-med.

Institutions have tried to get around this...Hopkins pre-screens its pre-meds before they apply out, thus ensuring that only a select echelon apply and reflect well on the Hopkins brand name. NU, on the other hand, allows all of its pre-meds to apply out with no screening and only a little advising. This has its advantages and disadvantages. The biggest drawback is that the applicant pool sees a greater number of NU pre-meds with a wide range of credentials, thereby diluting the effect of the NU brand name. Top liberal arts schools don't face this 'dilemma of too many pre-meds' and thus retain the effect of their name on adcoms.

2. By simply choosing to attend a liberal arts school, it shows that the student is interested in being something other than the typical biology major with research experience from a large university (which make up a vast number of the applicants as per the MSAR book).

3. Liberal arts schools are also more likely to gear their resources towards undergraduate students because they are the main focus. That being said, advising offices at liberal arts schools tend to be much better than at other 'top' universities.

Sorry to make this so long, but hope it helps some.

 

[Cdc28p]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Peter Parker:
•Hopkins pre-screens its pre-meds before they apply out, thus ensuring that only a select echelon apply and reflect well on the Hopkins brand name. •••••What the hell? Is this true? Some advisors have the audacity and arrogance to tell some poor premeds that they're not allowed to apply to med schools??? If true, this is so f***ed up.

 

[gel1]

BowB4Jeff,
I agree with everything that Peter Parker said. I graduated from Pomona and got interviews from every single med school that I applied to. Why? Not because I had some insane numbers...they were good but everything else really made me stand out. The recommendations were outstanding, I knew all of my profs inside and outside the classroom. The pre-med committee is exceptional, and every med school was Very interested in my liberal arts background. In fact, I was offered 2 different full scholarships, which I mostly credit to coming from the liberal arts background (all of my own merits shined through, I wasn't just a number). It allowed schools to really see who I was--something that you can't just do in a 30 minute interview. You will be sought after if you come from a top-five liberal arts school. I met countless students from my school at all of these top med schools. That should be surprising considering that my college only has ~350 students/class, and a smaller fraction of that is pre-med. Good luck, PM me if you have questions.

 

[NUgirl]

Hi Peter Parker,

I applied late (Dec-my primaries), and only to 4 chicago schools (missed the NU dedline) because of how late I applied. I got interviews at 3 out of 4 medical schools. I was really happy considering I applied so late!!!! Good luck!

 

[Taty]

I think it's plays some role, but not big role anyway...

 

[Peter Parker]

NUGirl,
Just to get a little off topic on this thread, I'd like to hear your impressions of Pritzker. You can PM me if you'd like. I'd like to know what they look for in NU students, particularly. Congrats on that acceptance, btw. Did the new pre-med advisor help you out much?

 

[oldman]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Peter Parker:
•Hopkins pre-screens its pre-meds before they apply out, thus ensuring that only a select echelon apply and reflect well on the Hopkins brand name.•••••when you say pre-screen, you make it sound like they prevent you from applying. what they are actually doing is looking at your file and helping you figure out when is the best time to apply. And if you want to go against their advice, they will still do their best to support you. The result is they have a high rate of getting people into medical school, and they get people who are reapplicants and alumni into medical school (79% Rate). If there is one redeeming part of the ugrad, it's the pre-med office.

 

[oldman]

i have friends who went to colleges with little to know pre-med advisor support. he ended up not getting in (he told me what he did afterwards) because he didn't apply right. with proper advice, it can really save you a lot of frustration, time, and money.

in regards to the importance of the institution. i know jhu people who didn't get into med school despite great gpa, etc. i've also met people at my state school or puny little liberal arts schools charging off to places like WashU.

in reality it is silly to debate this because heck, none of us are on adcoms. it's like a bunch of people staring at a electron microscope and debating what makes it work.

 

[THE instiGATOR]

Is that 79% their overall acceptance percent, oldman? I would think Hopkins can do better. UF had 53% accepted last year, which isn't all that bad (I was one of the rejectees in that #. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> ). No barriers are put up to prevent students from applying here (or to dissuade them).

One of my interviewers thought I was an Auburn undergrad. When I corrected him, he said: "Oh... UF? Well, that earns you bonus points!". I didn't know whether he hated Auburn or loved UF. Rock on either way!

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I guess one's undergrad school does matter. After all, its only ever so often that you see someone at an interview who went to Univ of Nevada- Las Vegas. Especially when he is by himself in a room full of Stanford, Duke, WashU, and NYU undergards. I guess my 3.6 at UNLV was as good as the 3.8+'s that these people got from these great schools. Damn. UNLV. The new Harvard of the West.
(sarcasm laid on pretty thick here) :wink:

 

[Jeffy]

Webslinger and Gel1,

Thanks for all of that good advice and reassurance! Jeez, that was actually some of the best best stuff (for my anxiety anyways ) I've heard in a long time, esp. from this site. As a premed who is still kinda early in the game but needing to do a bit of catch-up, I appreciate that kind of insight. By the way Wallcrawler, are you serious that NU's rate is low? For some reason I would have never thought that. And to Gel1, expect me to PM you soon.

Thanks you two!

 

[McEntrye]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by UCSFreak:
•I guess one's undergrad school does matter. After all, its only ever so often that you see someone at an interview who went to Univ of Nevada- Las Vegas. Especially when he is by himself in a room full of Stanford, Duke, WashU, and NYU undergards. I guess my 3.6 at UNLV was as good as the 3.8+'s that these people got from these great schools. Damn. UNLV. The new Harvard of the West.
(sarcasm laid on pretty thick here) :wink: •••••I think that is because the people who go to Stanford, Duke, WashU, and NYU etc have already been selected for intelligence. So the smarter people tend to have come from the bigger name schools - not that there aren't many very smart and able people who attended a less well known school for one reason or other. I think med schools take this into account, and try to judge many aspects of an applicant's character.

That is why you can have people like Jessica, who come from no-name state, and get into all the top schools, while others from Harvard undergrad might be much less successful.

 

[oldman]

79% is their acceptance rate for people who already graduated from hopkins and applied. i think it was also their acceptance rate for those who were repeate applicants.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Swamp Syphilis,
anyone?:
•Is that 79% their overall acceptance percent, oldman? I would think Hopkins can do better. UF had 53% accepted last year, which isn't all that bad (I was one of the rejectees in that #. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> ). No barriers are put up to prevent students from applying here (or to dissuade them).

One of my interviewers thought I was an Auburn undergrad. When I corrected him, he said: "Oh... UF? Well, that earns you bonus points!". I didn't know whether he hated Auburn or loved UF. Rock on either way!•••••

 

[Peter Parker]

BowB4Jeff,
Yes, NU's rate is around 60-65%, but increasing steadily. It was 55% two years ago according to the info I was told by an advisor. There is a new office of advising here and they are investing a lot of resources into getting this rate increased...it should be on par with schools like Hopkins in the near future. The national average hovers around 40%.

 

[Peter Parker]

NUGirl,
Thanks for the PM! Unfortunately, you've disabled your PM so I'm not able to write you back. I'm sure I've seen you around as well!

 

[Jeffy]

Parker,

How exactly does NU plan on raising its percentage? That sounds a little odd to me.

 

[sandflea]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Peter Parker:
•BowB4Jeff,
Yes, NU's rate is around 60-65%, but increasing steadily. It was 55% two years ago according to the info I was told by an advisor. There is a new office of advising here and they are investing a lot of resources into getting this rate increased...it should be on par with schools like Hopkins in the near future. The national average hovers around 40%.•••••i graduated from NU in '99 and we were told all through undergrad that NU's acceptance rate steadily hovered around 70%, not around 55%. 55% seems mighty low to me. what does this 55% represent, those who get into med school on the first try or those who *ever* get in? i find it odd that you and i were given such differing info about this.

 

[NUgirl]

You're welcome Peter Parker,

Do you know how I can put the PM icon back on? I dont think I ever had one! Thanks!

 

[Doctora Foxy]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by NUgirl:
•You're welcome Peter Parker,

Do you know how I can put the PM icon back on? I dont think I ever had one! Thanks! •••••Go to the top of the page and click "my profile", then go to update your profile on the top left corner. On the bottom of that page, you'll see where you can select to receive private messages.