Med Students Complain Waaaay Too Much

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I'm not sure it's all that clear.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...society+(ScienceDaily:+Science+&+Society+News)

Not everybody agrees with you that the work hour limits are "common sense". You will find a lot more debate about the merits of traditional call schedules versus night float systems. But that is also complicated by the fact that it seems like almost every program does night float slightly differently.


(Note, I am personally very happy about 80 work week restrictions - just pointing out that there are people campaigning to have it changed)

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@Cipher: I agree strongly. I just don't hang with the complainers, it drains you.
 
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:thumbup:

If I weren't already hardened by a few years in the workforce I'd probably be the loudest complainer alive.

Nowadays when someone is pissed about something I just think, "You should've seen the crap that my boss pulled. This is easy-street."

Only the truly outrageous stuff (outrageous in my perspective) gets me riled up.


:thumbup: A to the MEN! I too worked in the corporate American pyramid scheme and saw how it was out there. I rather be here than to deal with my crappy office/lab tech job any day. My worst days in medical school are better than my best days at my jobs.
 
:thumbup: A to the MEN! I too worked in the corporate American pyramid scheme and saw how it was out there. I rather be here than to deal with my crappy office/lab tech job any day. My worst days in medical school are better than my best days at my jobs.

One of the truest things I have ever read on SDN. :thumbup:
 
Whinier than grunts hm2?
 
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Former infantry here myself, and yes did we ever complain. As they say, if a grunt isn't complaining then something is very wrong. But really, we have a pretty good reason to have a chip on the shoulder :D

I posted this picture up in my lab where I work when I heard some of the others complaining about how stressed out they are come finals week haha (premed no less). A little complaining/venting can be a good thing...but some people are truly clueless in the extreme as to how privileged they are and how good they have it. A little gratitude goes a long way.

And a shoutout to corpsman33, nobody loves corpsman/combat medics more than infantry do!
 
One of the best part of rotations, besides just being on rotations, is not having to hear the incessant BS from students who always seem to have something to be upset over.
 
Yep, spoiled little ****s. I would never wish pre Libby Zion residency on anyone, but there does come a point where your learning suffers because of being babied. Guess what happened when the coddled interns became PGY2?
:thumbup: x 10
 
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Former infantry here myself, and yes did we ever complain. As they say, if a grunt isn't complaining then something is very wrong. But really, we have a pretty good reason to have a chip on the shoulder :D

I posted this picture up in my lab where I work when I heard some of the others complaining about how stressed out they are come finals week haha (premed no less). A little complaining/venting can be a good thing...but some people are truly clueless in the extreme as to how privileged they are and how good they have it. A little gratitude goes a long way.

So here's what has bugged me about that picture...
1) So there's a marine sitting in a trench in a hostile area without IBA?
2) And another one taking pictures of him?
3) And just happened to take a photo right as an incoming round hits?
4) And still no helmet?

I'm at a role III hospital now. One of the brigade surgeons brought this picture by a while ago; I had the same questions then. He just laughed.
 
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So here's what has bugged me about that picture...
1) So there's a marine sitting in a trench in a hostile area without IBA?
2) And another one taking pictures of him?
3) And just happened to take a photo right as an incoming round hits?
4) And still no helmet?

I'm at a role III hospital now. One of the brigade surgeons brought this picture by a while ago; I had the same questions then. He just laughed.

pretty sure that pic is from the Hurt Locker.
 
Oh.
Well, then it's even worse.

"Our job is hard- here's a picture of how hard it is, stylized in a movie."

"I saw (insert movie here), thank you for your service. ".

I really can't complain though, so long as the public looks favorably on vets and I have the card to play. Just compare how service members are depicted now v. the 70s.
 
i know what you're trying to say but for real...

horror is what's happening to my friends and family back in new jersey and new york after this storm... or others whose homes washed out to sea or even worse, those who lost loved ones.

studying for exams ain't $hit compared to real life troubles. most of these kids need to buck up, shut up, and just get it done.

this is some of the most flawed logic that people like to put out there.

"real life troubles" - guess what, the guy who lost his home in hurricane sandy has it easy compared to the guy struggling to survive on a day-to-day basis in an african war/genocide zone.
and that guy has it easier compared to a prisoner who is tortured everyday by some sick bastard in the confines of some dungeon or basement.

for a guy whose name is dharma, you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept that suffering (from so-called horrors), is a construct of the mind, and that horrors only exist if youre not non-attached. i'd agree with you if you told everybody, including the guy who lost his home and loved ones in a storm, to shut up and buck up, but instead you decided to arbitrarily draw some subjective line
 
this is some of the most flawed logic that people like to put out there.

"real life troubles" - guess what, the guy who lost his home in hurricane sandy has it easy compared to the guy struggling to survive on a day-to-day basis in an african war/genocide zone.
and that guy has it easier compared to a prisoner who is tortured everyday by some sick bastard in the confines of some dungeon or basement.

for a guy whose name is dharma, you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept that suffering (from so-called horrors), is a construct of the mind, and that horrors only exist if youre not non-attached. i'd agree with you if you told everybody, including the guy who lost his home and loved ones in a storm, to shut up and buck up, but instead you decided to arbitrarily draw some subjective line

Actually it's a objective line of poverty and death, but carry on with your hyperbole.
 
I really can't complain though, so long as the public looks favorably on vets and I have the card to play. Just compare how service members are depicted now v. the 70s.

True that.

I still haven't come up with a good response when people tell me "thank you for your service". I just sort of mumble in a vaguely appreciative tone and then wander away.
 
True that.

I still haven't come up with a good response when people tell me "thank you for your service". I just sort of mumble in a vaguely appreciative tone and then wander away.

I always just say "that's not necessary, but thank you". Then I walk away. Inevitably the next question is "did you see some f@#&$! up ****?"
 
Actually it's a objective line of poverty and death, but carry on with your hyperbole.

Re-read my post. The subjective line which I'm referring to is that which designates certain situations as "real life troubles"/"horrors".

But carry on with displaying poor reading comprehension skills
 
True that.

I still haven't come up with a good response when people tell me "thank you for your service". I just sort of mumble in a vaguely appreciative tone and then wander away.

LOL, that's hilarious. I always feel awkward too.

I was a chaperone for a group of wounded warriors (true war heroes) on a fishing trip to Florida, and as we were in the airport and everywhere we went I kept getting lumped in with these guys and thanked continually. I wanted to stop each time and say that these Marines deserved your thanks and not me, but it was a losing battle each time.
 
this is some of the most flawed logic that people like to put out there.

"real life troubles" - guess what, the guy who lost his home in hurricane sandy has it easy compared to the guy struggling to survive on a day-to-day basis in an african war/genocide zone.
and that guy has it easier compared to a prisoner who is tortured everyday by some sick bastard in the confines of some dungeon or basement.

for a guy whose name is dharma, you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept that suffering (from so-called horrors), is a construct of the mind, and that horrors only exist if youre not non-attached. i'd agree with you if you told everybody, including the guy who lost his home and loved ones in a storm, to shut up and buck up, but instead you decided to arbitrarily draw some subjective line

I feel you on this one. The arbitrary and subjective line between learning gross anatomy and losing your house and worldly possessions is really hard to draw.


















































































































No wait. Hang on. It isn't.
 
There's a fine line between complaining and understanding the environment medical school creates for medical students. I don't agree with students complaining about exams, anatomy, how much they have to study....etc. However, I do fully agree that change should be made with the work hours and the culture that is medicine.

Maybe I'm flawed along with the countless students that commit suicide during rotations. Maybe I'm whining with the other med students that have their relationships and marriages on the brink of divorce who face this typically during the third year.
Maybe the concept of students having to down Ritalin in order to do well on their boards or rotations in order to succeed.
Maybe I'm flawed for understanding that there's numerous things that happen in med school that need to be addressed. The difference between corporate America and Medicine, is at the end of the day if you get mad a stapler no one dies.
 
Its not whining its looking towards a healthier environment and working towards change.
 
And lol saying who is suffering more is a waste of time. At the end of the day a wounded soldier or a wounded civilian, a soldier with PTSD or a med student dealing with MDD. You can't say one is worse than the other. And if one is worse is the other one peaches and cream.
 
There's a fine line between complaining and understanding the environment medical school creates for medical students. I don't agree with students complaining about exams, anatomy, how much they have to study....etc. However, I do fully agree that change should be made with the work hours and the culture that is medicine.

I don't want any further changes made to work hours without evidence showing a benefit of the proposed changes. With the changes so far, there isn't clear evidence showing it's better than the previous rules (though I definitely agree that I'm glad we don't have to do 120+ hours per week anymore!). It would be hypocritical of us to push for changes without evidence in an era where we're emphasizing EBM so much.

Every one of us in med school should have researched what the hours were like before we decided to pursue medicine. I place people who complain about work hours in the same category that you place those who complain about exams, anatomy, how much they have to study, etc.

Maybe I'm flawed along with the countless students that commit suicide during rotations.

Can you provide data? I'm honestly curious because I've never heard of "countless" clinical-year med students committing suicide. I know that the suicide rate amongst physicians is higher than the general population, but I don't know any stats regarding medical students.

Maybe I'm whining with the other med students that have their relationships and marriages on the brink of divorce who face this typically during the third year.

Can't really comment on this one since I don't have any first-hand experience. I can definitely agree that it places stress on relationships.

Maybe the concept of students having to down Ritalin in order to do well on their boards or rotations in order to succeed.

I don't know a single person in my class of ~200 who used Ritalin to succeed in med school or the boards. With all the review books and other tools we have today, I don't think people abuse stimulants as much as they may have in the past -- I don't have any actual evidence to support that statement though. Nowadays, there's a pretty clear-cut formula for doing well on the boards. Nearly everyone in the Step 1 forums with a high score has pretty much the same study methods.

We sure do abuse a lot of coffee, though! ;)
 
And lol saying who is suffering more is a waste of time. At the end of the day a wounded soldier or a wounded civilian, a soldier with PTSD or a med student dealing with MDD. You can't say one is worse than the other. And if one is worse is the other one peaches and cream.

I get what you're saying & agree, atrocities suck. However, a wounded Soldier is a person (9 times out of 10) of a higher caliber of character than your everyday civilian. Especially these days, as that post-9/11 veteran signed up to protect their fellow Americans and serve valiantly. And know before anyone attempts to dispute this that it doesn't matter what your disagreement (s) maybe. It's the incompetent politicians that have disgraced the countless heorics performed everyday by these troops. Not the troops themselves. We, who have lived war day-in & day-out, not knowing if we'd see our loved ones again, & who have lost (in many cases) almost everything... all for the sake of protecting (if civilians actually knew of the true capabilities and sheer size of truly evil groups that constantly are at work to take down Americans just for being Americans, they'd sh#! themselves) the rights & liberties of all U.S. Citizens. And so yes, I can most certainly and without hesitation say that while I agree the loss of any good person is tragic, loss of a great one is even worse.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread... just found out that a former Soldier of mine recently took his own life. He was a good Soldier and an even better young man.
 
Agree that whining is way too prevalent in med school. Part of the problem is that people who go to med school have typically gone from strength to strength in every other aspect of their lives. When you're used to being first in your class without really trying and have oodles of self-esteem, then suddenly you're working your ass off to be an average student, you may lash out at your environment because that's the only thing that changed.

Between the selection process for high achievers and the fact that most med students are from upper middle class/upper class backgrounds, we are not as a group accustomed to getting our asses kicked by life.
 
Med school aint that bad...consumes a good amount of my time but whatevs
 
I get what you're saying & agree, atrocities suck. However, a wounded Soldier is a person (9 times out of 10) of a higher caliber of character than your everyday civilian. Especially these days, as that post-9/11 veteran signed up to protect their fellow Americans and serve valiantly. And know before anyone attempts to dispute this that it doesn't matter what your disagreement (s) maybe. It's the incompetent politicians that have disgraced the countless heorics performed everyday by these troops. Not the troops themselves. We, who have lived war day-in & day-out, not knowing if we'd see our loved ones again, & who have lost (in many cases) almost everything... all for the sake of protecting (if civilians actually knew of the true capabilities and sheer size of truly evil groups that constantly are at work to take down Americans just for being Americans, they'd sh#! themselves) the rights & liberties of all U.S. Citizens. And so yes, I can most certainly and without hesitation say that while I agree the loss of any good person is tragic, loss of a great one is even worse.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread... just found out that a former Soldier of mine recently took his own life. He was a good Soldier and an even better young man.

This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.
 
This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.

I know right? They should've went to college on mommy and daddy's paycheck and joined a frat like real men. Then they could go to DO school and bitch on Internet forums about how bad they have it. Nothing says hero more than biting the hand that feeds you.
 
This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.

I hope you're not serious.There are many that cannot afford college, therefore they enlist. Serving is one of the most honorable selfless things one can do. Just because you hear of a few bad ones in the media doesn't mean they're all hopeless people who have no choice but to join the military.
 
This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.

Unless you're brave enough to say that to the face of a soldier who's been shot in the head and undergoing rehab and trying to piece their life back together, then I can't respect your opinion. You have the right to say what you want, though you'd still be wrong, but at least we could respect you for having the bravery to say it to someone who has sacrificed for their country instead of a group of anonymous internet posters. You might not agree with what what politicians are telling soldiers to do, but you have to respect someone who's devoted their life to something greater than themselves, just like the clergy, nuns, public school teachers, etc...

Only so many people are willing to put themselves in harm's way for others. I think that's a noble thing. Please don't minimize their sacrifices.
 
There comes a point where demanding "evidence" for something is more a means to dismiss an argument than to express a genuine academic interest. We don't need randomized, blinded, placebo-controlled studies to describe the obviously detrimental effects of repeated 100+ hour workweeks. Evidence is great, but demanding studies to describe the obvious is counterproductive. Article for reference.

Well... in this area I think you do need more study; if only to better define the parameters.

The problem with much of the debate over work hours is that we don't know if we're really fixing the underlying problem.

Argument A) residents are overworked and because of lack of sleep they are making mistakes
Argument B) residents are undertrained and because of lack of knowledge they are making mistakes
Argument C) residents are overworked and because of lack of sleep they aren't learning as much and are making mistakes
Argument D) ... and so on and so forth

So which is it? The endpoint the laypublic cares about is medical errors. There has been a lot of debate over what really causes those. With a multifactorial problem like this it's hard to point to one change and say "this will make things better". There have been studies that show that lack of sleep makes one impaired. But it's still hard to say, based on those studies that it was the lack of sleep that directly caused the problems. Plus in some studies, even shortening the work day didn't translate to increased sleep because residents went home and did other things.

So I would argue that yes, more study is needed. This isn't one of the "obvious" areas of medicine. There are enough confounders in play that getting a handle on the problem is difficult.

Textbookversion said:
This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.

While I get what (I think) you're going for, that's kind of a tactless way to say it.

Perhaps it would be better to say something like... despite current public consensus, soldiers are not heroes just by virtue of doing their job. To give all soldiers automatic hero status upon enlistment/commission brings down the standards of "hero" and makes it more difficult to identify the ones who truly go above and beyond. Many 19-21yr olds joined as they saw this as the best (or only) avenue towards a career or a way to support themselves. Most didn't do it out of a selfless desire to help their country and protect their fellow Americans; they did it for the same reasons everyone else gets a job- to pay bills, provide for their family, and further their career goals.

Is the 19yr old supply tech who has never left a base in Louisiana any more of a hero just because they wear the uniform than say... a 6th grade math teacher in NYC? or a post office clerk in Tulsa? Calling all soldiers heroes is something we do to make ourselves feel good and show support. We're trying as a nation not to repeat the mistakes of post-Vietnam and condem all of the soliders just because they served in the military. Now the pendulum has swung the other direction, and although it's better on this side than the other, we are still over-heroizing people just by virtue of the employer they work for. I think you can be proud of someone and supportive of them, without having to elevate them to a status normally reserved for the exemplary outlier.

Mind you, I'm writing this while wearing body armor in my tent in Afghanistan. My belt has a stethoscope holster right next to my 9mm.
 
While I get what (I think) you're going for, that's kind of a tactless way to say it.

Perhaps it would be better to say something like... despite current public consensus, soldiers are not heroes just by virtue of doing their job. To give all soldiers automatic hero status upon enlistment/commission brings down the standards of "hero" and makes it more difficult to identify the ones who truly go above and beyond. Many 19-21yr olds joined as they saw this as the best (or only) avenue towards a career or a way to support themselves. Most didn't do it out of a selfless desire to help their country and protect their fellow Americans; they did it for the same reasons everyone else gets a job- to pay bills, provide for their family, and further their career goals.

Is the 19yr old supply tech who has never left a base in Louisiana any more of a hero just because they wear the uniform than say... a 6th grade math teacher in NYC? or a post office clerk in Tulsa? Calling all soldiers heroes is something we do to make ourselves feel good and show support. We're trying as a nation not to repeat the mistakes of post-Vietnam and condem all of the soliders just because they served in the military. Now the pendulum has swung the other direction, and although it's better on this side than the other, we are still over-heroizing people just by virtue of the employer they work for. I think you can be proud of someone and supportive of them, without having to elevate them to a status normally reserved for the exemplary outlier.

Mind you, I'm writing this while wearing body armor in my tent in Afghanistan. My belt has a stethoscope holster right next to my 9mm.

That is the more tactful way to frame it.

I've met soldiers (and veterans) who did heroic things and to me are heroes. The vast, overwhelming majority of military members are just people doing a job to bring home the bacon, there isn't anything magical about putting on the uniform.

Also to the people calling me out... lol. You don't know me, or what I've done in my life, or even where I go to school. Address the arguments not the person /shrug.
 
That is the more tactful way to frame it.

I've met soldiers (and veterans) who did heroic things and to me are heroes. The vast, overwhelming majority of military members are just people doing a job to bring home the bacon, there isn't anything magical about putting on the uniform.

Also to the people calling me out... lol. You don't know me, or what I've done in my life, or even where I go to school. Address the arguments not the person /shrug.

That was courageous :thumbup:

You're my new hero.
 
Is the 19yr old supply tech who has never left a base in Louisiana any more of a hero just because they wear the uniform than say... a 6th grade math teacher in NYC? or a post office clerk in Tulsa? Calling all soldiers heroes is something we do to make ourselves feel good and show support. We're trying as a nation not to repeat the mistakes of post-Vietnam and condem all of the soliders just because they served in the military. Now the pendulum has swung the other direction, and although it's better on this side than the other, we are still over-heroizing people just by virtue of the employer they work for. I think you can be proud of someone and supportive of them, without having to elevate them to a status normally reserved for the exemplary outlier.

Mind you, I'm writing this while wearing body armor in my tent in Afghanistan. My belt has a stethoscope holster right next to my 9mm.

I think you're missing a big point. That 19 year old supply tech is held to a much higher standard that his/her civilian counterpart. Also, hero has always been and always will be a subjective term.

I'd also argue that most 18 year olds enlisting in the armed services don't have the cognizance of planning ahead so much as to enlist out of professional elevation prospects. If they do, than they are surely weighing the risk of being in harm's way, and for that they are courageous.

Are service members and veterans sensationalized? Sure, and we're always a protected group when it comes to political talks, preferences, and benefits. The masses are too simple (or just cant be bothered) to understand the complexities of the armed forces and war, so it is all placed in the same box; war is bad, soldiers are good etc..and thus this spectrum as you say, is better than the other. I can see why textbook would be skeptic, seeing as he is intelligent and pursuing a field that demands evidence.
 
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I think you're missing a big point. That 19 year old supply tech is held to a much higher standard that his/her civilian counterpart. Also, hero has always been and always will be a subjective term.

I'm not missing it... I just don't subscribe to it. :)
The question I would pose is why is the military person held to a higher standard? Just by virtue of their employer? There are plenty of civilians employed by the DOD who also get sent overseas. Are they heroes? Do we hold them to a higher standard also? I agree that hero is a subjective term. But by overuse it can dilute the impact the term has.

Are service members and veterans sensationalized? Sure, and we're always a protected group when it comes to political talks, preferences, and benefits. The masses are too simple (or just cant be bothered) to understand the complexities of the armed forces and war, so it is all placed in the same box; war is bad, soldiers are good etc..and thus this spectrum as you say, is better than the other. I can see why textbook would be skeptic, seeing as he is intelligent and pursuing a field that demands evidence.

Indeed.
 
Enjoy your day... some people of higher caliber than yourself gave their lives so that you will.
 
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This is a hilarious post. Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects. Not magical heroes.

That is the more tactful way to frame it.

I've met soldiers (and veterans) who did heroic things and to me are heroes. The vast, overwhelming majority of military members are just people doing a job to bring home the bacon, there isn't anything magical about putting on the uniform.

Also to the people calling me out... lol. You don't know me, or what I've done in my life, or even where I go to school. Address the arguments not the person /shrug.

I'll address your flawed argument. You said the majority of active duty members have no other real world prospects (i.e. join the military or be doomed to McDonald's........:eek:). You also said they are "scared"......really?!?! I don't even think I need to address the "scared" statement because it is so absurd.

What about officers in the military??? Every single one (with the exception of Warrant Officers) possess the minimum of a bachelors degree and many others have graduate degrees. But I guess these individuals had no other prospects and could never get a job in the "real" world, so they had to come get a hand-out from uncle sam. In reality, going to MEPs and getting physically cleared, getting a security clearance, meeting the requirements for whatever job you are applying for in the military is extremely exhausting and hard. It is often much easier to find a job on the civilian side of things.

Also, many enlisted members join because they want to be Navy Seals, Rangers, Nuclear Techs on aircraft carriers, or medics/corpsman, etc. etc. The list goes on and many of these jobs simply aren't offered to civilians. I cannot believe you would be so naive to claim that the majority of people serving do so out of necessity. What an absolute ridiculous statement. Grow up and get over yourself.

Also, you seem a little ignorant yourself.....the only branch of the military that has "soldiers" is the Army. What about the Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard?
 
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I'm not missing it... I just don't subscribe to it. :)
The question I would pose is why is the military person held to a higher standard? Just by virtue of their employer? There are plenty of civilians employed by the DOD who also get sent overseas. Are they heroes? Do we hold them to a higher standard also? I agree that hero is a subjective term. But by overuse it can dilute the impact the term has.
.

Why? You know why; to ensure maximum compliance and efficiency when carrying out orders. That's why service members are broken down and go through vigorous training, gut busting training (at least in infantry, and to certain extents all other members). It's structured for us to care for one another in ways most people can understand; how else are you going to get people to fight to the death?

As to DoD employees: those guys are 80% ex military, and you won't find 19 year old civilian employees working for DoD. In context, I'm willing to bet anything that the service members who went from mil to medicine are certainly holding that standard higher than most as evident in their success.

Then there's hardship. How many med students do you know that understand what it's like to be tired, cold and miserable? Granted I'm a premed until July; my hardship today consisted of being hungover and having to write a 30 page lit review. Now I'm sitting on the couch 2 blocks from the beach. Now look at you. There's no comparison, I've been there. You have my utmost respect and I thank you for your service. I'm sure you're someone's hero.
 
Also, many enlisted members join because they want to be Navy Seals, Rangers, Nuclear Techs on aircraft carriers, or medics/corpsman, etc. etc.
Deciding on a career path because you get to do cool things doesn't necessarily make that person a selfless patriot. It makes them... normal.
The list goes on and many of these jobs simply aren't offered to civilians. I cannot believe you would be so naive to claim that the majority of people serving do so out of necessity. What an absolute ridiculous statement. Grow up and get over yourself.

If my choice was be an Nth generation coal miner or join the military (because my hypothetical family couldn't help with college and everyone from that small town basically worked the mine), then all of a sudden the military becomes a pretty good alternative that has nothing to do with selfless patriotism.

The problem is that this is an observation, not a judgement. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with joining the military because there are some really cool jobs in the military or because it's better than the alternative for some people. The only problem is it runs counter to the idea that everyone in the military are selfless patriotic heroes.

Heck, here's an idea. Let's remove the GI bill. After all, if the military is full of people who are there for selfless patriotic reasons, they shouldn't miss it... right?

Also, you seem a little ignorant yourself.....the only branch of the military that has "soldiers" is the Army. What about the Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard?

Generic term is generic. Getting mad because someone said "soldier" instead of "soldier/marine/airman/sailor/coast guard man (?) is like an EMT or paramedic getting mad because someone was using the wrong term ("EMTs" or "paramedics" to refer to everyone) or electrophysiologists being called a "cardiologist. In other words, needlessly pedantic.
 
Deciding on a career path because you get to do cool things doesn't necessarily make that person a selfless patriot. It makes them... normal.

I was never talking about patriotism anywhere in my quote. I was talking about whether they had other career choices or were forced into the military due to lack of options. Please show me where I tried to turn every military member into a selfless patriot in my quote? Pretty sure you just made that assumption yourself.

If my choice was be an Nth generation coal miner or join the military (because my hypothetical family couldn't help with college and everyone from that small town basically worked the mine), then all of a sudden the military becomes a pretty good alternative that has nothing to do with selfless patriotism.

The problem is that this is an observation, not a judgement. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with joining the military because there are some really cool jobs in the military or because it's better than the alternative for some people. The only problem is it runs counter to the idea that everyone in the military are selfless patriotic heroes.

Heck, here's an idea. Let's remove the GI bill. After all, if the military is full of people who are there for selfless patriotic reasons, they shouldn't miss it... right?

Again I WAS NOT MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT THE MILITARY MEMBERS WERE SELFLESS.

Also, I never said that every military member had a ton of career options but let's review textbook boy's quote: "Soldiers are a bunch of scared 19-21 year olds without any better prospects".

He stated that ALL military members only joined due to their inability to succeed in life outside of the military. A pretty sensationalized statement. My point was that there are literally thousands and thousands of military members who join despite having incredible intelligence, talent, degrees, NFL football players (Pat Tillman ring a bell), and all kinds of other prospects. And many people do join to do "cool" things in the military, but does that mean they couldn't have been successful elsewhere or were forced to join because their IQ was near 70.

Please reread my post a few more times before you reply next time.
 
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Deciding on a career path because you get to do cool things doesn't necessarily make that person a selfless patriot. It makes them... normal.


If my choice was be an Nth generation coal miner or join the military (because my hypothetical family couldn't help with college and everyone from that small town basically worked the mine), then all of a sudden the military becomes a pretty good alternative that has nothing to do with selfless patriotism.

The problem is that this is an observation, not a judgement. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with joining the military because there are some really cool jobs in the military or because it's better than the alternative for some people. The only problem is it runs counter to the idea that everyone in the military are selfless patriotic heroes.

Heck, here's an idea. Let's remove the GI bill. After all, if the military is full of people who are there for selfless patriotic reasons, they shouldn't miss it... right?



Generic term is generic. Getting mad because someone said "soldier" instead of "soldier/marine/airman/sailor/coast guard man (?) is like an EMT or paramedic getting mad because someone was using the wrong term ("EMTs" or "paramedics" to refer to everyone) or electrophysiologists being called a "cardiologist. In other words, needlessly pedantic.

The people I have served with in the military would have surely made it in civilian life had they not joined. I think the coal mine analogy you use is a rare case. That being said, your GI Bill comment just proves you know little of military benefits. Before 2009 the GI Bill was crap; it was an afterthought to the people who joined before then.
 
The people I have served with in the military would have surely made it in civilian life had they not joined. I think the coal mine analogy you use is a rare case. That being said, your GI Bill comment just proves you know little of military benefits. Before 2009 the GI Bill was crap; it was an afterthought to the people who joined before then.

Hey Nontrad, why would us military folk even need the GI Bill? We're just a bunch of illiterate coal miners with no ambitions for college or even trade school really. I'd rather just have a 12 pack of bud-light and the V.A. can call us even.

:laugh:
 
Hey Nontrad, why would us military folk even need the GI Bill? We're just a bunch of illiterate coal miners with no ambitions for college or even trade school really. I'd rather just have a 12 pack of bud-light and the V.A. can call us even.

:laugh:

Lmao.
 
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2 military posters who are wondering why everyone isn't bowing down to them.
 
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