Med students to nurses: show us your boobs!

[JamesSteelJones]

Hey--what do you guys think about this?

Strangeways, Here We Come: University of Alberta medical students have something important to say about nurses--especially their breasts!

July 8, 2005 -- The Edmonton Journal published a fair piece by Jodie Sinnema on May 19 about the recent controversy surrounding the lyrics of a "Nurses' Song" performed by University of Alberta medical students at their annual "Medshow." It seems that nursing professors, the university provost, and even the medical school dean found something objectionable about the song's assertions that nurses were "******" and "bitches" whose "incompetence" threatened to "make our patients die." But at least the medical students felt nurses were qualified to "fill up my coffeepot" and "give good head," and the refrain urged nurses to "show me those boobs." The song seems to reflect virulent misogyny, ignorance of nursing, and professional insecurity, a perfect storm of dysfunction that persists in many clinical settings, harming patients and contributing to nursing burnout and the global nursing shortage. To the extent the song and the medical students' apparent non-apology are indicators of their career trajectory, it's bad news for patients and colleagues. But the students' conduct does suggest that the business outlook may be good for local malpractice and personal injury lawyers--and possibly even those who work in the criminal justice system! See more here
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/news/2005jul/08_edmonton_j.html

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[Tiki]

Hey--what do you guys think about this?

Strangeways, Here We Come: University of Alberta medical students have something important to say about nurses--especially their breasts!

July 8, 2005 -- The Edmonton Journal published a fair piece by Jodie Sinnema on May 19 about the recent controversy surrounding the lyrics of a "Nurses' Song" performed by University of Alberta medical students at their annual "Medshow." It seems that nursing professors, the university provost, and even the medical school dean found something objectionable about the song's assertions that nurses were "******" and "bitches" whose "incompetence" threatened to "make our patients die." But at least the medical students felt nurses were qualified to "fill up my coffeepot" and "give good head," and the refrain urged nurses to "show me those boobs." The song seems to reflect virulent misogyny, ignorance of nursing, and professional insecurity, a perfect storm of dysfunction that persists in many clinical settings, harming patients and contributing to nursing burnout and the global nursing shortage. To the extent the song and the medical students' apparent non-apology are indicators of their career trajectory, it's bad news for patients and colleagues. But the students' conduct does suggest that the business outlook may be good for local malpractice and personal injury lawyers--and possibly even those who work in the criminal justice system! See more here
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/news/2005jul/08_edmonton_j.html

Wow. That is absolutely disgusting. They should be ashamed of themselves. I'm glad I don't go to school there.

 

[pillowhead]

Unbelievable. I can't believe than in 2005, someone would do something so blatantly offensive, untrue, and just plain old stupid. The medical students at that school are going to have a super time once they reach the wards. What on earth were they thinking? I'd love to see them say that face to face to some of the nurses who have been practicing for decades in surgery or the ER.

 

[PostalWookie]

That's pretty dumb. Sexism and all that other stuff aside, these med students are going to have a miserable time during their rotations if the nurses hate them.

 

[ocean11]

WOW! and to think I applied and wanted to get in there.... thanks for the rejection Alberta

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Let me be the first to say, I don't think I'd want to see the boobs of the vast majority of the nurses at my hospital.

(Preemptive note: This is a joke. The above mentioned song is pretty offensive and not really that funny to boot. Its offensiveness doesn't bother me as much as the lack of humor).

 

[thackl]

I hate to see all nurses lumped into the same stereotype. Many are very good, but steroetypes don't usually come without cause. My wife is a nurse and will quickly point out that MANY are like that. BTW, I was an engineer with NO interest in medicine when we met.

 

[Indryd]

Canadian? Mysogyny? I know!

I bet that's Hakashi/Masumame's area of Canada! Probably where his famous dad surgeon trained/teaches!

 

[Medikit]

It's not even funny really, I can imagine people laughing out of embarassment, but it seems like they just sort of slopped a bunch of mean phrases together in hopes that they could hide their contempt under the pretext of "I'm just kidding hehe LOL IRL".

 

[JamesSteelJones]

<<I hate to see all nurses lumped into the same stereotype. Many are very good, but steroetypes don't usually come without cause. My wife is a nurse and will quickly point out that MANY are like that.>>

Like what? Their treatment would make our patients die? They fill our coffeepots? They give us good head? We ride them like the village bike? They show us their boobs?

Come on, have some self respect. They go to college for 2-10 years to become nurses--some go for longer than we do. I wouldn't want anyone dissing my profession that way. Plus--they save our butts and teach us what we need to know in a clinical setting and somehow never get faculty title or pay. It's really sickening how our profession has attacked nursing when our patients would die in droves without them on so many levels. And such sexual agression in a public forum...I just can't beleive they weren't attacked by an angry mob.

Oh, I forgot, it's just a JOKE! Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

 

[thackl]

<<I hate to see all nurses lumped into the same stereotype. Many are very good, but steroetypes don't usually come without cause. My wife is a nurse and will quickly point out that MANY are like that.>>

Like what? Their treatment would make our patients die? They fill our coffeepots? They give us good head? We ride them like the village bike? They show us their boobs?

Come on, have some self respect. They go to college for 2-10 years to become nurses--some go for longer than we do. I wouldn't want anyone dissing my profession that way. Plus--they save our butts and teach us what we need to know in a clinical setting and somehow never get faculty title or pay. It's really sickening how our profession has attacked nursing when our patients would die in droves without them on so many levels. And such sexual agression in a public forum...I just can't beleive they weren't attacked by an angry mob.

Oh, I forgot, it's just a JOKE! Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

Hey, i don't even have enough expirience to develope my own opinion. My wife has been a nurse for 14yrs and she does not have a very high opinion of many of her co-workers.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

<<Hey, i don't even have enough expirience to develope my own opinion. My wife has been a nurse for 14yrs and she does not have a very high opinion of many of her co-workers.>>

Well, why don't you ask her to write out exactly how her profession is just like what the U of Alberta med students portrayed? Does nursing really involve giving med students blow jobs? Does she give her colleagues blow jobs at work? She sure must have a lot of professional pride!

 

[liverotcod]

I guess I assumed that the song referred to male nurses only. But now I see that it's just possible they meant all nurses.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

You thought the song was only about male nurses? I think it's pretty rare to sling insults at men when they are called bitches, ****** and village bikes and asking them to flash their boobs...

 

[thackl]

<<Hey, i don't even have enough expirience to develope my own opinion. My wife has been a nurse for 14yrs and she does not have a very high opinion of many of her co-workers.>>

Well, why don't you ask her to write out exactly how her profession is just like what the U of Alberta med students portrayed? Does nursing really involve giving med students blow jobs? Does she give her colleagues blow jobs at work? She sure must have a lot of professional pride!

Naaaa, she's always been one of the good ones (hard working, follows the rules). The others can make her job very difficult.

 

[liverotcod]

You thought the song was only about male nurses? I think it's pretty rare to sling insults at men when they are called bitches, ****** and village bikes and asking them to flash their boobs...

I was attempting humor, there. The students' little song seemed so full of machismo that putting a little homoerotic spin on it seemed a funny way to put them down.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

Sorry I didn't get the sarcasm.

I'm actually surprised we haven't had any people on the list finding this one funny and joining with our brethren in Alberta. So many med students seem eager to actually dis nurses when they get the opportunity...

 

[2tall]

I wonder where these students' attitudes descended from?

Spontaneous generation...I think not.

 

[noncestvrai]

It sounds like a Matt Stone and Trey Parker song...

noncestvrai

 

[megsMS]

<<I hate to see all nurses lumped into the same stereotype. Many are very good, but steroetypes don't usually come without cause. My wife is a nurse and will quickly point out that MANY are like that.>>

Like what? Their treatment would make our patients die? They fill our coffeepots? They give us good head? We ride them like the village bike? They show us their boobs?

Come on, have some self respect. They go to college for 2-10 years to become nurses--some go for longer than we do. I wouldn't want anyone dissing my profession that way. Plus--they save our butts and teach us what we need to know in a clinical setting and somehow never get faculty title or pay. It's really sickening how our profession has attacked nursing when our patients would die in droves without them on so many levels. And such sexual agression in a public forum...I just can't beleive they weren't attacked by an angry mob.

Oh, I forgot, it's just a JOKE! Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

Could you please explain the 2-10 years of college for nurses? I don't know of any nurse I know who went to college for 10 years.

 

[thackl]

Could you please explain the 2-10 years of college for nurses? I don't know of any nurse I know who went to college for 10 years.

You can get a phd in nursing....... shouldn't quite take 10yrs though

 

[2tall]

four years of college...two years of nursing school (if, this is the route one choices)...MSN...you could additionally get your PhD or become a nurse practitioner.

I'm sure there's a way to get to 10.

 

[Paws]

Does this medschool not have any women in its classes? Are they all men? I would have had to open my big mouth and say something if anything like that came anywhere close to actually getting on the stage. I am surprised other students let that pass ...

C'mon Canada! you can do better than that!

 

[2tall]

blame Canada!!!

 

[wends]

albertans are different! they're not real canadians (joking!)

 

[toofache32]

I've got some pictures of nurses' boobies if you guys want them.

 

[2tall]

Sorry I didn't get the sarcasm.

I'm actually surprised we haven't had any people on the list finding this one funny and joining with our brethren in Alberta. So many med students seem eager to actually dis nurses when they get the opportunity...

I think people "diss" bad nurses. They "diss" bad doctors as well. I don't think anyone believes (even our cohorts in Alberta) that the profession of nursing is a waste. Their comments were abhorrent and profoundly ignorant...juvenile, at best.

It's unfortunate when humor goes too far.

 

[2tall]

I've got some pictures of nurses' boobies if you guys want them.

Nice avatar!

Those boobies belonged to fat old men. It's a HIPAA violation to dress patients up like nurses and photograph their man-boobs. Next time...only dress-up. No pictures!

 

[JamesSteelJones]

<<Could you please explain the 2-10 years of college for nurses? I don't know of any nurse I know who went to college for 10 years.>>

I'm sorry, I'm new at this and can't figure out how to use the quote function. Anyway...

BSN=4 years
MSN=2 years
PhD=4 years
-------------------
TOTAL=10 years

 

[dopaminophile]

<<Could you please explain the 2-10 years of college for nurses? I don't know of any nurse I know who went to college for 10 years.>>

I'm sorry, I'm new at this and can't figure out how to use the quote function. Anyway...

BSN=4 years
MSN=2 years
PhD=4 years
-------------------
TOTAL=10 years

wouldn't the two years of masters in nursing go towards the PhD? So really it would be like 8 years.

This is not to mention the fact that the PhD is an academic degree in the theory, philosophy, and science of nursing (I think) rather than a practical skills degree as are CNAs, RNs, NPs, and PAs. Nurses are highly trained with a specific set of skills and theory, but even if they have 20 years of schooling, it's not the same field as a doctor's. I always find it silly that people think 8 years of nursing school is the same as 8 years of medical school--they are different fields of study and very different professions. You can have a nurse that is more highly trained in nursing than is a certain doctor in medical practice, but that doesn't mean the nurse knows more about medicine than does the doctor. (It does mean that the nurse knows a hell of a lot more about how to do his/her job well than does the doctor though. ;] )

It seems to me that these guys got caught up in a party mentality that is pretty permissive of things that are politically incorrect and they just went too far. What's sad is that they don't realize the errors of their ways and aren't handling the aftermath very well.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

wouldn't the two years of masters in nursing go towards the PhD? So really it would be like 8 years.

Nope. 2 years for the MSN, 4 years for the PhD. I have friends who are doing this program.

This is not to mention the fact that the PhD is an academic degree in the theory, philosophy, and science of nursing

Meaning what? Their education doesn't count? What do you expect it to be in, economics or physics? Anyway, their clinical component is often weighted toward their MSN when they get their NP's, nurse-midwife, nurse anesthetist or clinical nurse specialist sub-specialty degrees.

Nurses are highly trained with a specific set of skills and theory, but even if they have 20 years of schooling, it's not the same field as a doctor's. I always find it silly that people think 8 years of nursing school is the same as 8 years of medical school--they are different fields of study and very different professions.

Obviously they are different professions. Nurses know they are of course studying nursing. Do you think they're deluded that they are studying medicine? They have no desire to be physicians, believe me. You should hear the contempt they have for physicians for all the abuse physicians give them at work. Check out the discussion board on this where all the nurses have written about the UofA Medshow--they're furious at the entire profession and apparently have been for a long time
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1120849519

You can have a nurse that is more highly trained in nursing than is a certain doctor in medical practice, but that doesn't mean the nurse knows more about medicine than does the doctor.

Well who ever said they did? They know more about nursing. And sorry to tell you this, but the research shows that they're kicking our butts. Look at this for the data:

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/apn_md_relative_merits.html

 

[professor chaos]

people, please! let me be the first to call bull**** on this one. let's exercise some critical reading skills here...you all did take MCAT verbal, right? this is from a posting on the website of the center for nursing advocacy. The links to the supposed article in the edmonton journal link only to some dead-end google search string of some guy's blog, with the search terms medshow, jesus christ superstar, and boobs. Am i the only one who questions the veracity of this story here? if something sounds too ridiculous to be true, it usually is. if the only place you hear of it is on the website of a special interest group that is at war with the medical profession, i can guarantee you that it is probably a steaming load of crap. as with any story- consider the source, folks!

 

[professor chaos]

oh, and janessteeljones,RN- i just noticed that this is your first thread here ever, and you have now linked to this same nurse's advocacy site three times now. i wonder who you are here representing . so i guess while you are here, how's about getting my coffee and opening wide, sweetie!

 

[JamesSteelJones]

let's exercise some critical reading skills here... this is from a posting on the website of the center for nursing advocacy.

Obviously. But I couldn't find a comparison on the AMA's website or anywhere else. Believe me I looked for a competing comparison. Let me know if you find one.

the links to the supposed article in the edmonton journal link only to some dead-end google search string of some guy's blog, with the search terms medshow, jesus christ superstar, and boobs. Am i the only one who questions the veracity of this story here?

No, man, it was working the other day, I saw it. It's a real article. Maybe the cache link died.

if something sounds too ridiculous to be true, it usually is. if the only place you hear of it is on the website of a special interest group that is at war with the medical profession, i can guarantee you that it is probably a steaming load of crap. as with any story- consider the source, folks!

My nurse friends go there all the time. Sure they advocate for the profession--that's their job--but they have some huge nursing leaders on their board. They're not kooks.

oh, and janessteeljones,RN- i just noticed that this is your first thread here ever, and you have now linked to this same nurse's advocacy site three times now. i wonder who you are here representing . so i guess while you are here, how's about getting my coffee and opening wide, sweetie!

God you're disgusting. Sure, I'll get you your coffee and you can open wide. I have a coffee enema for you that you appear to be wanting.

I must work for an organization because I have linked to it? I don't know if you know this, but the entire nursing profession is up in arms about this right now and we need to know about it so we can deal with our nursing colleagues about it in the hospital. You think they're not going to assume we're all the same way? Obviously you don't think so much different from the University of Alberta medical students with your sexually aggressive comments. I suggest you go seek some serious treatment. What are you going into, gynecology? We don't need people like you in medicine. You give us all a bad name.

 

[Mr. Obsessive]

Obviously, but I couldn't find a comparison on the AMA's website or anywhere else. Believe me I looked for a competing comparison.



No, man, it was working the other day, I saw it. It's a real article. Maybe the cache link died.



My nurse friends go there all the time. Sure they advocate for the profession--that's their job--but they have some huge nursing leaders on their board. They're not kooks.



God you're disgusting. Sure, I'll get you your coffee and you can open wide. I have a coffee enema for you that you appear to be wanting.

I must work for an organization because I have linked to it? I don't know if you know this, but the entire nursing profession is up in arms about this right now and we need to know about it so we can deal with our nursing colleagues about it in the hospital. You think they're not going to assume we're all the same way? Obviously you don't think so differently as the University of Alberta medical students with your sexually aggressive comments. I suggest you go seek some serious treatment. What are you going into, gynecology? We don't need people like you in medicine. You give us all a bad name.

Whoa guys.... same team. same team.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

Whoa guys.... same team. same team.

Oh, that's right. Nurses are on an opposing team.

That's the sort of thinking that got us in trouble in the first place...

 

[LADoc84]

-

 

[wolferman]

Oh, that's right. Nurses are on an opposing team.

That's the sort of thinking that got us in trouble in the first place...

Wow. Mr. Obsessive tries to diffuse the situation and you dissect his words in order to find offense. You're amazing.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

Wow. Mr. Obsessive tries to diffuse the situation and you dissect his words in order to find offense. You're amazing.

Words have power man. The way we think controls the way things are.

 

[JAMMAN]

Like Chris Rock once said...

I'm not saying it's right...but I understand...

 

[Mr. Obsessive]

Words have power man. The way we think controls the way things are.

The way you think... no wonder the way things are the way they are for you. I meant nurses and doctors are on the same team (and so is every other health care professional). I'm sure every other person who read the post interpreted it as such.... except you. I hope you see that as a problem.

 

[JamesSteelJones]

The way you think... no wonder the way things are the way they are for you. I meant nurses and doctors are on the same team (and so is every other health care professional). I'm sure every other person who read the post interpreted it as such.... except you. I hope you see that as a problem.

I'm not sure you really meant that in your original message frankly. It seemed like you were saying that we med students were on the same team--against nurses. but whatever. I'm glad you're incorporating nurses into the team too.

by the way, I just found a copy of that Edmonton Journal article. But WARNING, it's on the center for nursing advocacy's web site--sorry I couldn't find it anywhere else!
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/news/2005jul/edmonton_05_19_art.html

 

[dmoney41]

Notice that over half of the UA med class is women and over half of the people who sang this were women, as well as the fact that they sang a song about medical students that was just as bad. This is, I suspect, taken completely out of context by an advocacy group so politically correct and sensitive that they write outraged letters for bizarre perceived slights (see their webpage writing angry letters about how the "intern deprived of sleep" study failed to recognize the "vital role of nurses in preventing medical errors" despite the fact that .... that's not really .... relevant at all?).

 

[superdavykinz]

There's a md/phd student on here that goes to uofa..maybe she can shed some light on what went down. And for mr. obessive's comment of 'same team'..I read it as it is. "We're all on the same team."

 

[driedcaribou]

So I guess 90% of you in this thread subscribe to the 'everything is sacred' train of thought and nothing can be made fun of?


The basis of humor is to make something ridiculous or say something unexpected usually at the expense of a group or individual.


If you disagree, then I suppose we should ban everything in the media that makes fun of any group of people.

We should ban House because they portray doctors as uncaring and ban Scrubs because they portary interns and residents as incompetent immature brats.

We should ban the Simpsons because of their portrayal of stereotypes like Apu and ban Family Guy for pretty much their offensive portrayal of... well everything. And how about Dr. Nick? Doctors should take action because well how could a doctor possibly be portrayed as incompetent? God forbid.

We should ban the Book House of God for their portrayal of nurses as **** toys for residents.


So perhaps the song wasn't funny. Of course it's offensive. That was their attempt at humor.

So when nurses and the public make fun of doctors it's ok but when medical students make fun of nurses it's not ok.

I see how this double standard is working.

Go and jump on the righteous bandwagon. I'm going to take the sinking ship of context and independant thought home.

 

[liverotcod]

driedcaribou, I am with you 100% up to the point that a sincere complaint was made by the legitimate representatives of the injured party (the nurses). At that point, it's appropriate for a full apology to be made. In other words, just say "We apologize. It was done in fun but we now realize that it was inappropriate. Our intent was not to be hurtul."

That should take the sting out. But it sounds like the med students are reluctant to do the civil thing.

 

[wolferman]

The MedShow is considered infamous by some for its perennial risque material, but is liked by others who see the black humour as a way to release stress while studying to become doctors. It's put on every year by medical students as a fundraiser for the graduating class.

Does anyone know what kind of pieces they've done in the past? If it's an annual event and it's known for it's black humor, I'm curious why the nurses chose this year to object. This suggests to me that they must've really lowered the bar on their comedy this year compared to past years.

 

[driedcaribou]

driedcaribou, I am with you 100% up to the point that a sincere complaint was made by the legitimate representatives of the injured party (the nurses). At that point, it's appropriate for a full apology to be made. In other words, just say "We apologize. It was done in fun but we now realize that it was inappropriate. Our intent was not to be hurtul."

You are right though. It is appropriate for a full apology to be made. It would be the mature thing to do.

It is a shame though that this will likely snowball out of proportion and be taken largely out of context to nursing organizations which will predictably over react. I don't know if they should go so far to say it was inappropriate though. I believe the MedShow also makes fun of Engineers and Lawyers as well. Saying they realize it was inappropriate means they can't make fun of nurses ever again in future MedShows. I don't see why they get immunity to all forms of insults.

Almost everyone seems to bag out Lawyers universally and it is surprising they don't sue the pants off everyone for defamation.

 

[professor chaos]

Obviously. But I couldn't find a comparison on the AMA's website or anywhere else. Believe me I looked for a competing comparison. Let me know if you find one

that is because the story is B.S., only parroted by nursing activists to advance thier cause.

My nurse friends go there all the time. Sure they advocate for the profession--that's their job--but they have some huge nursing leaders on their board. They're not kooks.

i am not implying that this group is on the fringe. the sad fact is the huge nursing leaders today ARE THE KOOKS. While most actual clinical nurses i know are very cool people that know thier role and are happy to be very well paid (relative to thier length of education) to perform it, every single one of these "activist nurses" are egomaniacs with major physician-based inferiority issues, that will not stop until NP's are 100% equal to or greater than physicians in every concievable measure (status, income, practice rights, neurosurgery, etc..) These groups are our sworn enemies (but again, not the 95% of actual clinical nurses that could care less about this crap.)

God you're disgusting. Sure, I'll get you your coffee and you can open wide. I have a coffee enema for you that you appear to be wanting.
I must work for an organization because I have linked to it? I don't know if you know this, but the entire nursing profession is up in arms about this right now and we need to know about it so we can deal with our nursing colleagues about it in the hospital. You think they're not going to assume we're all the same way? Obviously you don't think so much different from the University of Alberta medical students with your sexually aggressive comments. I suggest you go seek some serious treatment. What are you going into, gynecology? We don't need people like you in medicine. You give us all a bad name.

my point is that you seem all too eager to advance thier agenda, which is to take this ridiculous story WAY out of context, propogate it all over the internet, and create an outrage for thier political gain. oh, poor poor nurses, let's all bend over backwards to make them happy. if you are not getting paid by them, perhaps that is something you should inquire about- you are acting as one hell of a spokesperson. and the coffee and a blowjob crack was solely intended to get under your paper-thin skin. I see that it worked.

anyone who is interested in this story should also take a few minutes to browse the center for nursing advocacy's positions/faq's at http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/faq.html (the allnurses forum posting also originates from here, too)
i especially liked the section on "nurse-friendly language" ooh, ooh, don't call physicians doctors, it disparages the hard work of the many PhD nurses out there!! also, they are not "doctor's orders", they are "medical care plans" that nurses must evaluate and negotiate with the physician prior to implementing them at thier own discretion. i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

If we let them, these people will continue to spread new "outrages" like this every single day, and as long as we are on the on the defensive explaining ourselves rather than calling them on thier strategic lies and exagerrations, then they are winning the battle of public opinion. It is just like how republicans will talk about how democrats would rather give terrorists hugs than defend america, and all this other crap, and what do the dems do? they actually waste thier time answering it rather than framing the discussion themselves (but, but, we hate terrorists.. we aren't liberals...we love america..). in the meantime, what happens...republicans win EVERYWHERE. A bit off track, but a good analogy i feel... The aggressor wins the debate every time. and right now, these very powerful nursing lobbies are kicking our ass. we don't need to fuel thier fire by apologizing for what a handful of dorks said at some forum where we really don't have the first clue as to what exactly went on, or its proper context.

 

[wolferman]

Professor Chaos's conspiracy theory is sounding more valid to me after discovering a disturbing similarity between a phrase used on SDN and on the Nursing Advocacy site. The similarity is so striking that I can only conclude that JamseSteelJones and the webmaster at the Center of Nursing Advocacy are one in the same. I report, you decide.

Words have power man. The way we think controls the way things are.

Language is powerful. If members of the public...

The above quote is from the last paragraph on the following page:
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/nf/ap_office.html