med students- why they look down upon us?

[ProZackMI]

I fully encourage all medical professionals to harass chiropractors!! (& no, a chiropractor is NOT a medical professional) Chiropractric manipulation is all alternative bullsh*t!! I would never ever ever let a loved one see a chiropractor. Don't ever let a chiropractor touch your neck especially, please!!

This post may seem kindof ironic considering my previous post. But I don't think chiropractic work has any basis in medical knowledge, research, clinical testing, etc. Unlike dental and medical practices.

You just made my week! Thanks for the laugh, and...the reality. You are indeed correct...chiros are not medical professionals. I have a thing about optometrists too (especially them calling themselves "Doctor" and having limited TPA/DPA privis), but at least most optometrists are ethical folks, just misguided about their place in the health care system.

However, dentists are indeed ethical and very well trained medical professionals who are on par with MDs/DOs.

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[ProZackMI]

During my first year I had a PA student tell me she thought dentists shouldn't be called "doctors" (picture her finger motions!) because they were so limited in their scope of knowledge and training -- as compared to PA's!

Regardless of one's level of training, people will try to slam others if they're insecure themselves. Unfortunately for them, they're the ones that look like tools every time.

You've got to be kidding? A PA told you that?

Let's see:

Dentist:
- 4 years of college for a BA/BS
- 4 years of dental school for a DDS/DMD
8 years of formal post secondary education; some with residency programs

PA (depending on the state)
- 2 years of college, 4 years of college, or in rare cases, a master's for 6 years of school.

And dentists don't deserve to be called "doctor"? Anyone with 7-8 years of school earned the title "doctor" (well, except chiros!). Hell, even lawyers have a doctorate (JD). That PA was just jealous.

 

[ProZackMI]

The top 10 Highest Paying Jobs in the US
1-Surgeons: $190,280
2-Anesthesiologists: $184,880
3-Obstetricians and gynecologists: $180,660
4-Internists, general: $160,130
5-Pediatricians, general: $143,300
6-Chief executives: $140,580
7-Family and general practitioners: $139,640
8-Psychiatrists: $139,300
9-Dentists: $131,210
10-Airline pilots, copilots and flight engineers: $129,880

oh yeah i guess you are right but only if you flip the chart upside down

Uhh, OB-GYNs, Peds, Internists, and FP/GPs usually don't make anywhere near as much as general dentists. Where are your figures from? I'd say most surgeons make much more than 190K a year. Many CRNAs make more than 185K a year, so anesthesiologists would most likely make around 300K a year. I'm a psychiatrist and I make over 140K per year, and I know that I make more than most GPs/FPs and even IMs.

 

[dinesh]

Maybe it's because your penis was larger.

 

[ProZackMI]

Regarding pharmacy, who told u we don't talk about pharmacists and what they do?? Actually dentists, unlike pharmacists, are doctors. Not only do pharmacists call themselves doctors (it doesn't bother me actually) but they act as ones as well. They (mis)diagnose patients and prescribe wrong medicines to them. Again this is in Egypt and I don't know about other countries. So I believe the debate is actually justified between doctors and pharmacists rather than between doctors and dentists. I haven't seen a doctor making braces and haven't seen a dentist doing a hemorrhoidectomy.

In the US, a pharmacist usually attends college for 4 years, earning a BA/BS, and then goes to pharmacy school for another 4 years for a PharmD (Doctor of Pharmacy). Many US pharmacists then attend a 1-3 year residency program. Pharmacists, like dentists, podiatrists, veterinarians, osteopaths, psychologists, lawyers (yes, even lawyers), and PhDs, are "doctors" by degree and title.

You, however, are not a doctor since in Egypt, you only earn a Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery, or Bachelor of Dentistry degree.

No pharmacist diagnoses patients. They may recommend medications, but they are not allowed to dx and treat patients. Clincial pharmacists at my hospital save lives and millions of dollars each year by preventing malpractice situations by catching drug mistakes made by MDs and DOs.

 

[ProZackMI]

Maybe it's because your penis was larger.

This is very true; it is indeed quite large.

 

[toofache32]

Uhh, OB-GYNs, Peds, Internists, and FP/GPs usually don't make anywhere near as much as general dentists. Where are your figures from? I'd say most surgeons make much more than 190K a year. Many CRNAs make more than 185K a year, so anesthesiologists would most likely make around 300K a year. I'm a psychiatrist and I make over 140K per year, and I know that I make more than most GPs/FPs and even IMs.

I think all those numbers are pretty low. And what the heck is a "chief executive"? Pretty generic.

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/faq.asp

 

[Legacy]

Dentists have the highest Suicide rate too!!!

Phew, glad that's out of the way. Now I'll go back to food bundling.

 

[12YearOldKid]

I want to let u know more about Egypt. Egyptians are a bunch of illiterate bedouins living in tents and riding camels who try to fool tourists and sell them some stupid mini-pyramids and sphinxs. We don't have any sophisticated higher form of life in Egypt. Fortunately, we have some skilled Americans living here who do the medical and dental work. So, when u visit Egypt to buy a minipyramid, u don't have to worry about who will fix ur broken tooth.

I applaud you for this. It is often difficult for us to look at ourselves honestly and objectively, but you seem to have come to terms with who you are. I wish more people had this gift.

 

[hyperbaric]

Now if the MD's and DO's could just get along.....

 

[SuperTrooper]

I want to let u know more about Egypt. Egyptians are a bunch of illiterate bedouins living in tents and riding camels who try to fool tourists and sell them some stupid mini-pyramids and sphinxs. We don't have any sophisticated higher form of life in Egypt. Fortunately, we have some skilled Americans living here who do the medical and dental work. So, when u visit Egypt to buy a minipyramid, u don't have to worry about who will fix ur broken tooth.

Yeah, Egypt sucks hardcore.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

The top 10 Highest Paying Jobs in the US
1-Surgeons: $190,280
2-Anesthesiologists: $184,880
3-Obstetricians and gynecologists: $180,660
4-Internists, general: $160,130
5-Pediatricians, general: $143,300
6-Chief executives: $140,580
7-Family and general practitioners: $139,640
8-Psychiatrists: $139,300
9-Dentists: $131,210
10-Airline pilots, copilots and flight engineers: $129,880

oh yeah i guess you are right but only if you flip the chart upside down

Interesting to note would be the hours worked by each one to make that salary. It would cast a very different light on it. Also, dentists are small business owners, which allow them awesome ways to make money without showing income. I love accountants...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

It's just because you don't have to study the complex pelvic anatomy or the smallest details of the urinary physiology or diagnose Wolf-Parkinson-White sydrome from an EKG to make a tooth filling !!

I wouldn't have to look far to find medical students or residents in my hospital who wouldn't be able to do the above. There are just as many idiots graduating from medical school as there are graduating from dental school. Trust me. Luckily, we don't have many Egyptians over here, or there would be a lot more.

 

[Fascia Lata]

In the US, a pharmacist usually attends college for 4 years, earning a BA/BS, and then goes to pharmacy school for another 4 years for a PharmD (Doctor of Pharmacy). Many US pharmacists then attend a 1-3 year residency program. Pharmacists, like dentists, podiatrists, veterinarians, osteopaths, psychologists, lawyers (yes, even lawyers), and PhDs, are "doctors" by degree and title.

You, however, are not a doctor since in Egypt, you only earn a Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery, or Bachelor of Dentistry degree.

No pharmacist diagnoses patients. They may recommend medications, but they are not allowed to dx and treat patients. Clincial pharmacists at my hospital save lives and millions of dollars each year by preventing malpractice situations by catching drug mistakes made by MDs and DOs.

Hey I know that pharmacists in the US hold a PharmD (my sister is an American PharmD). However, almost all pharmacists in the US wouldn't call themselves doctors, just the same way JDs (lawyers) wouldn't call themselves doctors.

When I said pharmacists diagnose and treat patients on their own, I made sure to make it clear that this applies only to Egypt. Actually this happens in Egypt, where the poor patients find it easier to consult pharmacists by telling them their complaints rather than going to a doctor. The illiterate patients actually don't perceive any difference between different personnel wearing white coats. They may not actually know that pharmacists go to a different school. So, they find it more convenient to go to one doctor (the pharmacist) rather than going to a doctor whom they pay to refer them to the other doctor (the pharmacist).

Returning to the chicken-egg dilemma of MBBS not being a doctorate degree, I agree with you. It is not an academic doctorate. On the other hand, it is considered to be a professional doctorate. This is attested on both: the diploma itself and the Egyptian Physician Syndicate ID where the title of the physician is written as (DOCTOR).

The professional vs academic doctorate topic has been discussed thoroughly in other threads, but I will try to let u know what I mean. Most 3rd world countries follow the old British system of education. I will talk about Egypt:

1- MBBS/MBBCh : Bachelors of Medicine and Bachelors of Surgery
(6 years of Medicine "we don't have ANY premed requirements" to be followed by one year of compulsory rotating internship).
2- MS: Masters of Science in a clinical specialty. It consists of three parts: the first being basic sciences, the second being the clinical specialty and the third being thesis defense.
3- MD: Doctorate in Medicine. A purely research-based degree that is required to advance in an academic career.
4- PhD: a doctorate in basic sciences.

Things are now starting to change. Many schools in Egypt are on their way to change the nomenclature of the diplomas they award. For example, Alexandria Med School (my school) has recently changed the nomenclature as follows:

1- MD: equivalent to the old MBBCh
2- MS: remains the same
3- PhD: a research-based academic doctorate either in a clinical science or in a basic science.

Here is a link to prove what I am saying:

http://www.alexmed.org/alexmedsch/education_M_D_Program.asp
(I know the website looks stupid and lacks any useful information)

Actually I see no difference, and I don't know why they made that change. Anyway "the new" MD degree is NOT an academic doctorate but is rather a preofessional one, while "the old" MD degree was an academic doctorate rather than a professional one.

In the UK, an American graduate is not able to call himself an MD, because the MD degree in the UK is still an academic doctorate, which has no equivalent in the US system. On the other hand, the AMA has stated that the MBBCh degree is equivalent to an American MD. That's why most graduates of medical schools following the British system substitute the MBBCh letters with "MD". It may have an element of inferiority complex though (Plz guys don't start it).

Most UK consultants don't have an MD degree and are still called "doctors".
Here u can see a list of UK consultants names preceded by the letters (Dr.) and lacking the letters (MD) under the qualification tab. If u believe people without an MD shouldn't be called doctors, then u have to agree that the UK has lost more than 9/10 of its consultant physicians, let alone the physicians who are still in training, none of whom being a doctor !!!

I assume u know that UK surgeons call themselves (Mr).

http://www.specialistinfo.com/

For all of you who are trying to insult, I wouldn't bother replying anymore as I know ur point of view won't change. Thanks anyway.

Mohamed

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Ditto. I've interacted with a few medical students here, and we are all pretty amiable to one another. I'm actually surprised how amiable we all are.

Every once in a great while I run into someone who makes it apparent that they think a DDS is beneath them, but for the most part, medical residents are just as respectful of us as they are of other medical specialties. I even hang out with a couple ENT guys. Traditionally, ENT/OMFS clash because of turf conflicts. The only people that I've gotten the superiority thing from are the ones that no one in the hospital tends to like anyway. F*ck 'em!

 

[Rube]

You just made my week! Thanks for the laugh, and...the reality. You are indeed correct...chiros are not medical professionals. I have a thing about optometrists too (especially them calling themselves "Doctor" and having limited TPA/DPA privis), but at least most optometrists are ethical folks, just misguided about their place in the health care system.

However, dentists are indeed ethical and very well trained medical professionals who are on par with MDs/DOs.

I won't stick up for Chiros being called doctor but I would definitely call them professional (except for the ones that aren't). The fact is MDs and even the DOs are lousy at treating simple things like back aches. Most people who get musculoskeletal pain live with it because the etiology is not well understood. My point in defending Chiro is just to say that anyone who devotes themselves to this area of HC and helps people deserves to be treated as a professional.

 

[lnn2]

During my first year I had a PA student tell me she thought dentists shouldn't be called "doctors" (picture her finger motions!) because they were so limited in their scope of knowledge and training -- as compared to PA's!

please!!! if her job tittle has the word "assistant" in it then she's owned by someone (physician) hence she'll be doing b!tch works.

My point in defending Chiro is just to say that anyone who devotes themselves to this area of HC and helps people deserves to be treated as a professional.

True dat but most of the Chiros associtate with personal injury (car accidents) lawyers. They're not legit.

 

[toofache32]

I wouldn't have to look far to find medical students or residents in my hospital who wouldn't be able to do the above. There are just as many idiots graduating from medical school as there are graduating from dental school. Trust me. Luckily, we don't have many Egyptians over here, or there would be a lot more.

I have a medical degree and I have no idea how to tell WPW from anything else on a EKG. Or urinary physiology. In the MD world it's analagous to what the orthodontists teach us in dental school..."refer it out!"

 

[lnn2]

I'm a psychiatrist and I make over 140K per year, and I know that I make more than most GPs/FPs and even IMs.

Not too shabby for a shrink! Are you not practicing law? I've seen MDs and DDS/DMD with JD degree. Is there a good use for it (malpractice?) other than to add a couple more letters behind your name?!

 

[SuperTrooper]

Alexandria Med School (my school)

haha!! You go to Alexandria University? Dude, Cairo State kicks your ass every year in football!!

But seriously, egypt sucks.

 

[rottentooth]

As a medical student, I look in this forum sometimes because I'm curious, having had little exposure to the dental field.

I think that it runs both ways. My school has medical and dental students and the dental students seem to look down on the medical students. I know one of them personally and he is constantly telling me that dental school is much harder than medical school, etc. Other dental students say the same thing. I think that his comments are unfounded, and, even if they were 100% true, and medical school were much easier than dental school (I wouldn't know) then why say those things? I would never tell a nursing student that medical school is sooooo much harder than nursing school, even though medical school is probably more challenging. It belittles the person and it reveals an inferiority complex. Medical school is harder than a lot of things. To comment on this to someone in a school that I think is less challenging is rude.

I totally agree with KatieOConnor...I am embarrassed for my fellow dental students who make this "MD vs DDS thing an issue"! There is a serious inferiority complex in our field!

 

[ProZackMI]

Hey I know that pharmacists in the US hold a PharmD (my sister is an American PharmD). However, almost all pharmacists in the US wouldn't call themselves doctors, just the same way JDs (lawyers) wouldn't call themselves doctors.

When I said pharmacists diagnose and treat patients on their own, I made sure to make it clear that this applies only to Egypt. Actually this happens in Egypt, where the poor patients find it easier to consult pharmacists by telling them their complaints rather than going to a doctor. The illiterate patients actually don't perceive any difference between different personnel wearing white coats. They may not actually know that pharmacists go to a different school. So, they find it more convenient to go to one doctor (the pharmacist) rather than going to a doctor whom they pay to refer them to the other doctor (the pharmacist).

Returning to the chicken-egg dilemma of MBBS not being a doctorate degree, I agree with you. It is not an academic doctorate. On the other hand, it is considered to be a professional doctorate. This is attested on both: the diploma itself and the Egyptian Physician Syndicate ID where the title of the physician is written as (DOCTOR).

The professional vs academic doctorate topic has been discussed thoroughly in other threads, but I will try to let u know what I mean. Most 3rd world countries follow the old British system of education. I will talk about Egypt:

1- MBBS/MBBCh : Bachelors of Medicine and Bachelors of Surgery
(6 years of Medicine "we don't have ANY premed requirements" to be followed by one year of compulsory rotating internship).
2- MS: Masters of Science in a clinical specialty. It consists of three parts: the first being basic sciences, the second being the clinical specialty and the third being thesis defense.
3- MD: Doctorate in Medicine. A purely research-based degree that is required to advance in an academic career.
4- PhD: a doctorate in basic sciences.

Things are now starting to change. Many schools in Egypt are on their way to change the nomenclature of the diplomas they award. For example, Alexandria Med School (my school) has recently changed the nomenclature as follows:

1- MD: equivalent to the old MBBCh
2- MS: remains the same
3- PhD: a research-based academic doctorate either in a clinical science or in a basic science.

Here is a link to prove what I am saying:

http://www.alexmed.org/alexmedsch/education_M_D_Program.asp
(I know the website looks stupid and lacks any useful information)

Actually I see no difference, and I don't know why they made that change. Anyway "the new" MD degree is NOT an academic doctorate but is rather a preofessional one, while "the old" MD degree was an academic doctorate rather than a professional one.

In the UK, an American graduate is not able to call himself an MD, because the MD degree in the UK is still an academic doctorate, which has no equivalent in the US system. On the other hand, the AMA has stated that the MBBCh degree is equivalent to an American MD. That's why most graduates of medical schools following the British system substitute the MBBCh letters with "MD". It may have an element of inferiority complex though (Plz guys don't start it).

Most UK consultants don't have an MD degree and are still called "doctors".
Here u can see a list of UK consultants names preceded by the letters (Dr.) and lacking the letters (MD) under the qualification tab. If u believe people without an MD shouldn't be called doctors, then u have to agree that the UK has lost more than 9/10 of its consultant physicians, let alone the physicians who are still in training, none of whom being a doctor !!!

I assume u know that UK surgeons call themselves (Mr).

http://www.specialistinfo.com/

For all of you who are trying to insult, I wouldn't bother replying anymore as I know ur point of view won't change. Thanks anyway.

Mohamed

I understand the British educational system and I understand that in the US, most of the professions have changed their degree nomenclature to reflect a professional doctorate rather than a first bachelor's degree (e.g., MD vs. MBBS or DDS vs. BDS). However, from what I understand, most physicians/dentists/vets in the UK and countries following the UK model have about 2 years of "pre-med" college/university classes, then go into their four year professional program and earn their first and only degree, the MBBS/BDS, etc.

Here, in the US, almost all (but not always) physicians and dentists (and also lawyers and other professionals) possess a BS/BA degree and then their professional degree. While a BA/BS in biology in addition to an MD does not make a physician superior to one in the UK who only has an MBBS, it does, however, support the use of the title "doctor" and elevates the MD from an undergraduate degree to a post graduate degree. Is an MD equivalent to a PhD? No, of course not. A PhD is a research degree and an MD or JD or DDS is not. However, an MD, JD, or DDS is a professional doctorate, whereas the MBBS/LLB/BDS/BVSc are undergraduate degrees.

What I find hard to believe is how someone with a BDS or MBBS or BVSc degree can have the unmitigated gall to refer to themselves as "doctor" when in fact, they are not doctors at all. I can see how it can be confusing (mixing the doctor title with the term physician), but if you sincerely do not possess an academic or professional doctorate, you should not be called doctor. It reminds me of the PAs and NPs here in the States who allow patients to call them "doctor". If your degree says "Doctor" in it, you, are a doctor. You may be a doctor of jurisprudence, chiropractic, or medicine, but you are a doctor.

That being said, I don't think physicians trained in the UK, or under the UK model, are inferior to the US trained physician. But there is something to be said about someone who has two degrees vs. someone who has one. In my mind, "doctor" signifies a certain level of academic achievement (e.g., higher/advanced degree in a field), not a profession. One is a doctor by degree earned, not by profession/trade. One who has gone to school for 7-8 years and has earned a BA/BS and an MD/JD/DDS/DVM/PharmD, etc., is truly a "doctor", wheres one with only an LLB/MBBS/BVSc, etc., is not. Another factor: the age of the practitioner. A little age and maturity is not always a bad thing!

 

[ProZackMI]

Not too shabby for a shrink! Are you not practicing law? I've seen MDs and DDS/DMD with JD degree. Is there a good use for it (malpractice?) other than to add a couple more letters behind your name?!

Nope, I take the bar exam in February (shudder), and only practicing medicine right now. The truth is, an MD/JD or DDS/JD is pretty useless unless you're involved in academic medicine/law. Why? Well, why put yourself through all of that schooling (and stress and debt) when you simply cannot practice both medicine and law? In my case, I plan on leaving medicine altogether and move into law. Malpractice? HELL NO! I am actually thinking about intellectual property and education law.

It's my experience that most professionals or academics who earn a second professional degree are either misguided or want to leave one profession and enter another. It's not a bad thing, but it's rare that and MD/JD or DDS/JD actually practices both medicine/dentistry and law. Usually, one field is chosen and the second degree is a "bonus", but not necessary.

If you have a law degree, you are more than qualified to practice med mal law. You don't need a comprehensive medical background. Most med mal lawyers pick up enough jargon and basic medicalese to navigate through discovery and expert testimony without difficulty. In fact, many med mal lawyers I know even understand the pathology of diseases and injuries fairly well, which is surprising. Likewise, most docs who do frequent court work, can pick up enough legalese to manage just fine. A JD is overkill and unnecessary.

In my case, I wanted a change and decided to go for it. Maybe I'm an idiot (well, there is no doubt that I am!!!), but I always wanted to be a lawyer when I was younger, and never really wanted to be a doctor. So, I just did what I wanted...after wasting a good chunk of my life training to be a doctor.

 

[ProZackMI]

I have a medical degree and I have no idea how to tell WPW from anything else on a EKG. Or urinary physiology. In the MD world it's analagous to what the orthodontists teach us in dental school..."refer it out!"

I have an MD and remember a great deal of anatomy and physiology, pathology, etc., but I have forgotten a ton of stuff. I can read EKGs and EEGs just fine, but a venous Doppler or a PFT? Nope. I don't remember if FEV1 or FVC is more important. I don't remember squat about DLCOs. No clue about ABG levels. If you don't use it, you lose it.

 

[Fascia Lata]

However, from what I understand, most physicians/dentists/vets in the UK and countries following the UK model have about 2 years of "pre-med" college/university classes, then go into their four year professional program and earn their first and only degree, the MBBS/BDS, etc.

Nope, in most of the cases, there is no premed requirement in the UK (my cousin is an Oxford grad). At some schools there might be a preparatory year if they believe the student is not well prepared out of high school. This is because secondary school (A levels) in the UK is much more challenging than the US high school.

The UK med schools are 5 to 6 years long. The whole 5/6 years are medicine vs 4 years of medicine in the US, but of course the US schools are much more rigorous.

Again, the MD degree in the UK is a research academic doctorate rather than a professional one, and ALL UK "physicians" are formally referred to as "doctors" (with the exception of surgeons) even if they don't have an academic doctorate. This kind of disproves what u were saying about being a doctor implies holding a doctorate rather than being a physician by profession. And yes, the UK MD is a research degree just like PhD, with PhD lasting more time. The American MD is a FIRST degree in medicine, just like MBBCh in the UK. Think about it can't u do a masters in medical basic sciences after ur MD?? Don't lawyers pursue a master (LLM) after JD? This implies that professional doctorates are FIRST degrees rather than ADVANCED degrees. They r just "graduate-entry". Plz see these sites to know about the UK MD degree:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ioo/courses/research.htm
http://www.le.ac.uk/sm/md/publish.html
http://www.medschl.cam.ac.uk/courses/md-mchir/index.html
http://www.gla.ac.uk/faculties/medicine/gradschool/research.html
http://www.medschoolguide.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1029

The UK is shifting towards the US model, which I believe is the best, by creating graduate entry MBBCh courses of 4 years duration and designed specifically for those holding a first bachelors. However, the nomenclature remains the same (MBBCh) as the MD degree is a different story.

Thank u Prozac for ur time replying to my posts.
Mohamed

 

[OzDDS]

One who has gone to school for 7-8 years and has earned a BA/BS and an MD/JD/DDS/DVM/PharmD, etc., is truly a "doctor", wheres one with only an LLB/MBBS/BVSc, etc., is not.

This is a false statment, maybe your opinion, but still legally incorrect.

*They have 7-8 year combined MBBS-BA programs in the UK too btw.
* If you graduate from a UK medical school with an MBBS and take the US exams you are then allowed to use the title MD because the US recognises it as the same level.

A rose by a diff name is still a rose.

Example.. what about physical therapy programs in the US. 20 years ago they were all bachelors degrees, then they were masters, and now they are all going to be DPT (doctorate in physical therapy) degrees. They are all first degrees in physical therpy. programs consisting of 2-3 years in length. Guess what.. at the end of the day.. your a physical therapist. Not a doctor. What about Nurse Anesthatists who spend an extra year getting a clinical doctorate. So your saying your going to rock up to the OR and call that nurse anesthatist Dr. so and so. But you would not go to the OR in the UK and call a medical graduate and fully trained anesthesiologist "Doctor"? If so, your a disrespectful idiot.

 

[OffAngleHatchet]

If you don't use it, you lose it.

:: raises hand :: Is it true that if you don't use it, you lose it?

 

[aphistis]

But you would not go to the OR in the UK and call a medical graduate and fully trained anesthesiologist "Doctor"? If so, your a disrespectful idiot.

I would call an anesthesiologist "Dr.", yes. If I was addressing a surgeon, however, I'd refer to him/her as Mr./Mrs./Ms. as appropriate, and there's nothing disrespectful or idiotic about it.

From someone who's learned the hard way a couple times, you might want to make sure you've done your own homework before you start calling people names.

 

[ProZackMI]

This is a false statment, maybe your opinion, but still legally incorrect.

*They have 7-8 year combined MBBS-BA programs in the UK too btw.
* If you graduate from a UK medical school with an MBBS and take the US exams you are then allowed to use the title MD because the US recognises it as the same level.

A rose by a diff name is still a rose.

Example.. what about physical therapy programs in the US. 20 years ago they were all bachelors degrees, then they were masters, and now they are all going to be DPT (doctorate in physical therapy) degrees. They are all first degrees in physical therpy. programs consisting of 2-3 years in length. Guess what.. at the end of the day.. your a physical therapist. Not a doctor. What about Nurse Anesthatists who spend an extra year getting a clinical doctorate. So your saying your going to rock up to the OR and call that nurse anesthatist Dr. so and so. But you would not go to the OR in the UK and call a medical graduate and fully trained anesthesiologist "Doctor"? If so, your a disrespectful idiot.

You truly have significant problems with reading comprehension as well as some apparent emotional problems. Calling me an idiot must make you feel great about yourself, eh? Interesting considering the topic: dental students feel that med students look down upon them, and here you are, looking down upon me for making my valid comments.

Did you NOT read and understand what I wrote? Yes, an MD and an MBBS are functional equivalents. I understand that concept. I have an MD. I have a JD. I'm not an idiot. However, what my point was, and still is, that I find it deceptive and somewhat pretentious for a practitioner to call himself "Doctor" when he has either one or two bachelor's degrees. In the UK and UK based educational systems, the title doctor for physicians is called a "courtesy title". Here in the US, we may have the equivalent of an MBBS, but we are true doctors in that we have a post bachelor's professional doctorate degree.

That was my whole point, genius. Yes, it's semantics, but nonetheless, to go around calling yourself "doctor" when you do not have one is pure puffery. How do you avoid this? Stop using the antiquated and ridiculous British nomenclature.

And, yes, I am aware of the transition to the DPT degree. Many professions have done this: pharmacy, audiology, optometry (many years ago), and now PT. The 5-year BS in Pharm has changed to a graduate level PharmD. The PharmD is more than a renamed BS. An AuD is now the degree for audiologists, but it's a puffed and bloated MA/MS in audiology. The ONLY reason why audiologists went to the AuD is because they want increased respect and hope to expand their scope of practice to become more like optometrists (who do the same thing for the eyes as the audios do for the ears). Is this degree inflation or expansion of practice? For pharms, as time has gone by, there are more medications, contraindications, and interactions than ever before. Simply put, there are more and more drugs created and put out on the market each year. Pharmacy has expanded and the knowledge required to be a pharmacist has also expanded, hence the change in degree.

However, how has audiology or PT changed? I say the transition toward a clinical doctorate is more reflective of the need for professional recognition and eventual classification os primary care providers (with increased insurance reimbursement, RxPs, etc.).

Nevertheless, one is a "doctor" by the degree he holds, not by his profession. I am a doctor by virtue of having earned a Doctor of Medicine degree, not because I am a physician. In continental Europe (with the exception of France), the word doctor = academic. If you say, "I'm a doctor", the Europeans correctly assume you're a scientist or academic, or...even a lawyer! In the US, France, and in the UK, the word doctor immediately connotes with medicine/health care. Many Germans and other Euros think of physicians as mere "body mechanics". My uncle in Denmark, for example, is a PhD in biochem. He looks down upon MDs because they touch "blood, feces, and other disgusting materials". It's a matter of perspective, I guess.

If you have an MBBS, you are NOT a doctor by degree, but only by courtesy title. It's that simple. A US JD is more of a doctor than a Brit MBBS. That's not to say that an MBBS cannot be an excellent physician.

Here's the abridged version:
1) AnyONE who possess an EARNED professional or academic doctorate, be it MD, DDS, DVM, PharmD, JD, DPT, PhD, EdD, ScD, etc., is a DOCTOR.

2) An MD is a physician first, and then a doctor by virtue of his degree.
3) A DDS is a dentist first, then a doctor by virtue of his degree.
4) A doctor is a degree, not an occupation. The word DOCTOR does not mean a healer! To use the term doctor to mean physician is not an appropriate use of the word.

That was my point.

 

[ProZackMI]

This is a false statment, maybe your opinion, but still legally incorrect.

*They have 7-8 year combined MBBS-BA programs in the UK too btw.
* If you graduate from a UK medical school with an MBBS and take the US exams you are then allowed to use the title MD because the US recognises it as the same level.

A rose by a diff name is still a rose.

Example.. what about physical therapy programs in the US. 20 years ago they were all bachelors degrees, then they were masters, and now they are all going to be DPT (doctorate in physical therapy) degrees. They are all first degrees in physical therpy. programs consisting of 2-3 years in length. Guess what.. at the end of the day.. your a physical therapist. Not a doctor. What about Nurse Anesthatists who spend an extra year getting a clinical doctorate. So your saying your going to rock up to the OR and call that nurse anesthatist Dr. so and so. But you would not go to the OR in the UK and call a medical graduate and fully trained anesthesiologist "Doctor"? If so, your a disrespectful idiot.

By the way, you're is how you properly spell the contraction you and are. Your is a possessive. Also, an MD is a degree, not a title. Doctor of Medicine is a degree just like Doctor of Philosophy, Doctor of Jurisprudence, Master of Arts, etc.

A degree can bestow a title upon the user. An MD bestows the title doctor by virtue of the degree, not by the occupation. Confusion only arises in countries that inappropriately equate the word doctor with physician. Technically speaking, using your examples of the CRNA with a doctorate, or the DPT, they are, in fact, by virtue of their earned clinical doctorates, doctors.

Now, if you're saying I'm wrong, then NO dentist is a doctor, because no dentist is, in the true sense, a physician. Only allopaths, osteopaths, vets, and podiatrists would be allowed to use the title doctor if you truly believe what you're saying. All of you dentists, psychologists, pharmacists, optos, and chiros would not be able to use the title since you are not physicians.

Either lose that warped idea that MD = doctor, or start using appropriate titles of address:

Physician Jones
Dentist Smith
Optometrist Davis
Pharmacist Jenkins

 

[ProZackMI]

:: raises hand :: Is it true that if you don't use it, you lose it?

I suppose it depends on the area of study and the person in question. In my case, I found many areas of medicine to be boring or just not interesting. As I increased my knowledge in psychiatry, through my residency and subsequent practice, I found myself filling my mind with more psychopharmacology, psychopathology, DSM-IV nomenclature and dx, substance abuse treatments, etc. I still use a great deal of my clinical medical knowledge, but honestly, things like OB-GYN, ophthalmology, path, cardio, etc., I have forgotten or displaced. I often have to look up normal lab values (e.g., HCT, HGB, SGPT, BUN, creatinine, bilirubins, albumin) more now than I did when I was in IM. As an internist, I could look at a pt's labs and would know if they were low or high in a certain area, now I find myself questioning sometimes. This was even moreso during and after law school when I had to cram more stuff into my skull. In my visualization, I see it as: as more new stuff comes in, more old stuff has to go out to create a homeostasis. Not sure if that's true, but it certainly has been my experience.

 

[daelroy]

On the flipside, nothing annoys me more than when certain dental students and dentists try to state they have the same clinical skills and understanding of basic sciences that I have "+ their dental skills." I don't think medicine is better than dentistry or vice versa. But I do think they are different fields that emphasize different skill sets. I know some schools like Columbia make dental and medical students share the same curriculum but the vast majority of dental schools don't do this. I know that many dental schools don't require anatomy training below the head and neck and those that do don't require lower limb anatomy as examples. You don't spend your 3rd and 4th years doing clinical rotations and then another 3 years reinforcing those clinicals skills in a hospital based residency. I know there are exceptions like the oral surgeons who get an M.D. degree but I count those people as physicians as much as I do dentists so I'm not addressing them.

Dentistry is not a subspeciality of medicine like radiology. You don't devote the same number of hours toward basic science classes since you spend a large portion of your hours learning dental skills. Dentistry prepares people for the opportunity to practice upon graduation which is why you spend a significant amount of time during dental school learning your trade. Medicine is not modeled in this fashion. We are expected to do a residency so we are not cramming clinical skills during our first two years like you guys do. That is why we spend more hours on pathology, microbiology etc.

Again, I don't think less of dentistry but it is a different fields that shares many things in common with medicine but they are not the same.

 

[ProZackMI]

On the flipside, nothing annoys me more than when certain dental students and dentists try to state they have the same clinical skills and understanding of basic sciences that I have "+ their dental skills." I don't think medicine is better than dentistry or vice versa. But I do think they are different fields that emphasize different skill sets. I know some schools like Columbia make dental and medical students share the same curriculum but the vast majority of dental schools don't do this. I know that many dental schools don't require anatomy training below the head and neck and those that do don't require lower limb anatomy as examples. You don't spend your 3rd and 4th years doing clinical rotations and then another 3 years reinforcing those clinicals skills in a hospital based residency. I know there are exceptions like the oral surgeons who get an M.D. degree but I count those people as physicians as much as I do dentists so I'm not addressing them.

Dentistry is not a subspeciality of medicine like radiology. You don't devote the same number of hours toward basic science classes since you spend a large portion of your hours learning dental skills. Dentistry prepares people for the opportunity to practice upon graduation which is why you spend a significant amount of time during dental school learning your trade. Medicine is not modeled in this fashion. We are expected to do a residency so we are not cramming clinical skills during our first two years like you guys do. That is why we spend more hours on pathology, microbiology etc.

Again, I don't think less of dentistry but it is a different fields that shares many things in common with medicine but they are not the same.

I agree with your statement completely. The same is true of other professions such as pharmacy, optometry, vet med, and even nursing. You learn the skills necessary for practice IN school, NOT after school in a residency. In dentistry, pharmacy, and optometry, for example, if you want to learn additional skills, or expand your area of practice, you can enter a specialized residency. I've always wondered if the US model of medical education overly inflates the physician's status and underutilizes medical school.

In other words, your average general practice dentist learns what he needs to be a competent practitioner in four years of dental school coupled with professional experience. Your average dentist doesn't go through a residency program, so why should your average general practice physician? Why not gear med school to be MORE LIKE dental school rather than have dental school be more like medical school? Dentists, pharmacists, and optometrists leave school earlier than MDs (if you count residency as additional schooling), can enter the profession at a younger age than MDs, and start making good money much earlier than MDs. They learn the skills necessary to practice after four years, whereas we learn the skills to practice after a basic or specialized residency.

Why? If a physician wants to specialize, then I can see an extended residency, but honestly, I did not need 4-5 years of post MD training to be an internist or psychiatrist. If my med school curriculum had been more like dental school, I would have left med school with the appropriate professional skills to be a GP. Med school, however, does not prepare one to be a physician -- residency does.

I still don't understand why. I never did. The extended residency/education for physicians increases their student loan debt, delays their entry into professional practice, and...dare I say...also creates additional ego inflation by equating residency to 3-7 years of post MD coursework, which, in fact, it is not. Only a small portion of a residency program is didactic, the majority being "hands-on", on-the-job training.

Dentists have it right. I think medical education should be more like dental education. However, back to your point, dental school is NOT medical school. I have seen where many dentists, but usually more often the chiros and optos, state that they have the SAME classes as physicians the first two years of school, then move toward their professional curriculum the last two years. I have looked at some other professional programs to compare and from what I've seen, only dentists and podiatrists share many of the same first two year classes as allo/osteopaths. Since I have not been to dental school, however, I do not know for certain, but no matter what any one says, there is a reason why medical school is different from dental school: they are not the same, although, in some ways, they are very similar.

 

[ProZackMI]

I say that a physician trained in the UK system, who has earned either a 5-6 year Bachelor of Medicine (MBBS) degree, or a 7-8 year BA/BS and MBBS degree, is NOT a doctor in the true sense of the word. This person has a courtesy title of "doctor", but in fact, is a holder of a professional, advanced bachelor's degree. Technically, the holder of an MA, MS, or MBA is "higher" than the holder of an MBBS degree. That is a statement of fact, not opinion.

In the US, physicians, lawyers, and dentists, and many other professionals, must complete a BA/BS degree first, take a very difficult admission test, and then undergo another 3-4 years of post undergraduate training for a graduate level professional degree. Finally, after graduation, the professional must complete a rigourous licensing examination (Bar, USMLE, etc.).

Does that mean the physician in the UK, with one degree (MBBS), who is a licensed physician, is less trained, or inferior, to an American trained physician with a BS and MD? No, not at all. The extra undergraduate degree does not make one a better physician, but it does do a few things:

1) It allows the physician to have more time to grow and mature as an adult: 18-22 (undergraduate) and then 22-26 (medical) and then residency (26-34, depending on specialty). Age and life experience create a more well-rounded, mature person, which means an older, wiser, more wordly physician.

2) It also gives the physician a solid educational foundation in language, writing, literature, math, science, art, history, etc. A four year degree in any field, with certain pre-reqs, is what is needed to enter most med schools. I believe this makes American docs somewhat more educated in other fields outside of med/science.

3) The additional schooling adds credibility toward the doctoral credential. A true doctorate is a post bachelor's degree. You CANNOT earn a PHD without first earning a BA/BS, and in some cases, without first earning a BS/BA and then an MS/MA. An MD is NOT a first degree, but rather, a first professional degree. This makes the MD, DDS, JD, etc., more like a PhD than it does a second bachelor's degree.

About equivalencies. I have a problem with the IMG/FMGs who come to the US with an MBBS/BVSc/BDS, etc., and who then qualify for US licensure, but deceptively assume the title doctor and adopt the degree MD or DDS, etc. This is "false advertising" and is a misrepresentation of material fact. The FMG does NOT possess an MD, but rather an MBBS. Why not just practice and use your MBBS? Because it would "confuse" most people and it would also lead most Americans to believe the physician was somehow less qualified. "You mean, you only have a bachelor's degree in medicine?"

Consider this: what if you earned a master's degree in science from a university in Eastern Europe. You come to the US and call it a PHD because it's a 3 year master's, not a 2 year master's like in the US. Is that right? Is that fair? The title DOCTOR is ONLY bestowed upon one by earning an academic/professional degree. The title DOCTOR is not earned by entering a profession. That is NOT how it works. The word doctor has been inappropriately confused with physician for a long time.

An MBBS is a physician, not a doctor.

 

[toofache32]

...I know that many dental schools don't require anatomy training below the head and neck and those that do don't require lower limb anatomy as examples. You don't spend your 3rd and 4th years doing clinical rotations and then another 3 years reinforcing those clinicals skills in a hospital based residency. I know there are exceptions like the oral surgeons who get an M.D. degree but I count those people as physicians as much as I do dentists so I'm not addressing them...You don't devote the same number of hours toward basic science classes since you spend a large portion of your hours learning dental skills....

I'm not aware of any dental school that let you get by with only head & neck anatomy. Which ones are you referring to? Also, as an oral surgeon with a medical degree, I'm not sure you really understand our specialty. Or maybe I just misinterpreted what you were saying. The medical degree is optional and peripheral to our training and has no bearing on the procedures we perform or the patients we treat. Med school was the easiest part of my residency because you have no responsibility whatsoever in med school.

And you're correct that we spend a large portion of our hours in dental school learning dental skills. But this is in addition to all the hours we put in to the basic sciences. I only had 17-20 lecture hours per week in med school, whereas I had 30-35 lecture hours per week in dental school. Yes, you heard me correctly. Sitting in lecture from 8-5 every day but Friday sucked. Then we had the evening to study and do lab work. So it's a false (and common) assumption to say that dental students spend less time on basic sciences because of the time spent on dental subjects. Dental students have much less free time and a larger volume of material to digest.

 

[daelroy]

And you're correct that we spend a large portion of our hours in dental school learning dental skills. But this is in addition to all the hours we put in to the basic sciences. I only had 17-20 lecture hours per week in med school, whereas I had 30-35 lecture hours per week in dental school. Yes, you heard me correctly. Sitting in lecture from 8-5 every day but Friday sucked. Then we had the evening to study and do lab work. So it's a false (and common) assumption to say that dental students spend less time on basic sciences because of the time spent on dental subjects. Dental students have much less free time and a larger volume of material to digest.

It's also false to assume all medical students take 17-20 lecture hours per week as well as it is to assume all dental students had your schedule. It varies with each school. I had 30-35 hours of lecture my first two years of medical school and none of those had anything to do with dentistry. On the other hand, UOP complete their basic sciences in less than one year. I was in lecture from 8-5 four days per week and many medical students share a similar schedule. There are some medical students who are in lecture 40 hours per week! Yes, 40 hours per week and none of those classes include dental anatomy, dental pathology or dental prep classes. 17-20 hours of lecture sounds like a joke especially for a 2nd year curriculum, no offense. I'm suprised you feel that 30 hours of lecture is unusual since most medical schools offer a similar schedule. And when accounting for the USMLE Step I board exam after 2nd year and the knowledge required to pass that exam let alone succeed on it reinforces the fact that medical students are required to know much more about basic sciences than dentists since the exam is solely devoted to basic sciences.

I won't disagree that dental students have less free time than medical students due to all the skills they are learning and the preparation that is required. But they simply do not have the same level of clinical training that physicians have unless you are talking about an oral surgeon with the M.D. that goes back to medical school and undergoes the full clinical rotation setup. Again, I wouldn't profess to be able to do dentistry or have the same knowledge of the oropharyngeal cavity that any dentist does. Likewise, a dentist is not going to have the same depth of knowledge regarding pathology, pathophysiology, anatomy and microbiology that a physician has especially by the time the physician is done with residency.

 

[daelroy]

Uhh, OB-GYNs, Peds, Internists, and FP/GPs usually don't make anywhere near as much as general dentists. Where are your figures from? I'd say most surgeons make much more than 190K a year. Many CRNAs make more than 185K a year, so anesthesiologists would most likely make around 300K a year. I'm a psychiatrist and I make over 140K per year, and I know that I make more than most GPs/FPs and even IMs.

You have to understand that many of the primary care fields in medicine like family practice and general internal medicine is similar to general dentistry in that you could earn 500K or 80K depending on a lot of factors such as location, patient population, type of patients seen, cosmetic or elective procedures etc. I know some general dentists who are making a half a million dollars per year and others that are barely earning over a 100K. Likewise, I know some internists who perform a lot of procedures that earning half a million and other working for CIGNA making 80K.

 

[dinesh]

I want to know why the frick we always have to get into this arguement.
It's that time of the month?

 

[daelroy]

....edited

 

[dinesh]

 

[Fascia Lata]

Either lose that warped idea that MD = doctor, or start using appropriate titles of address:

Physician Jones
Dentist Smith
Optometrist Davis
Pharmacist Jenkins

This is a good idea. Unless you have an inferiority complex you should have no objection on the above suggestion. Well said Prozack.

Okay u have convinced me to an extent. At least in the USA, where the 1ry medical diploma is a doctorate degree by name, one should clearly address himself by one's profession and only write the letters of his diploma after his name and not the ones that he thinks are equivalent. This is in order not to deceive the public. However, I still se nothing wrong in calling a physician or a dantist "doctor" in a country where the 1ry professional degree is a bachelors degree (such as UK, Egypt,..etc)and the term dcotor is broadly understood to be equivalent to the term physician.

 

[Rezdawg]

It's also false to assume all medical students take 17-20 lecture hours per week as well as it is to assume all dental students had your schedule. It varies with each school.

Most dental students are in class 30-35 hours per week. Its very common.

BU's med school schedule is a joke compared to what we do. Med school curriculum at BU...

Semester 1:
Gross Anatomy
Histology
Psychiatry
Integrated Problems (IP)
Intro to Clinical Medicine (ICM)

Semester 2:
Biochemistry
Physiology
Essentials of Public Health
Neurosciences
Endocrinology
Immunology
Genetics

Semester 3:
Microbiology
Pathology
Pharmacology
IP
ICM

Semester 4:
Biology of Disease
IP
ICM
Psych
Time off for USMLE step 1

Thats basically 1 year of dental school stretched out into 2 years of medical school.

 

[Fascia Lata]

Thats basically 1 year of dental school stretched out into 2 years of medical school.

What about the content? is it the same? I mean that the subjects could have the same names but with a different content. Just curious.

 

[daelroy]

Most dental students are in class 30-35 hours per week. Its very common.

BU's med school schedule is a joke compared to what we do. Med school curriculum at BU...

Semester 1:
Gross Anatomy
Histology
Psychiatry
Integrated Problems (IP)
Intro to Clinical Medicine (ICM)

Semester 2:
Biochemistry
Physiology
Essentials of Public Health
Neurosciences
Endocrinology
Immunology
Genetics

Semester 3:
Microbiology
Pathology
Pharmacology
IP
ICM

Semester 4:
Biology of Disease
IP
ICM
Psych
Time off for USMLE step 1

Thats basically 1 year of dental school stretched out into 2 years of medical school.

You forgot to include how many hours are spent in each class. At our school, Physician Assistants take the same types of classes we do but spend considerably less time in each class and have separate exams so they are not asked to learn the same depth of knowledge as us. It doesn't mean anything to simply list a class schedule like that.

 

[Rezdawg]

You forgot to include how many hours are spent in each class. At our school, Physician Assistants take the same types of classes we do but spend considerably less time in each class and have separate exams so they are not asked to learn the same depth of knowledge as us. It doesn't mean anything to simply list a class schedule like that.

Well, im not sure the break down for each class, but they are scheduled, on average, from about 9am-3pm. And as far as depth of material per basic science course, its all the same, except for gross anatomy, in which we normally dont go below the abdomen (although since the boards are starting to cover more material regarding the reproductive system, our curriculum has changed to accomodate that as well)....so we dont do legs, which the med students do.

 

[toofache32]

...But they simply do not have the same level of clinical training that physicians have unless you are talking about an oral surgeon with the M.D. that goes back to medical school and undergoes the full clinical rotation setup.

What does the MD add to oral surgery training?

 

[Rezdawg]

What about the content? is it the same? I mean that the subjects could have the same names but with a different content. Just curious.

Its almost identical. Many of our basic science teachers teach the same subjects to the med students. Only real difference is the leg section of gross anatomy, which we dont cover.

 

[daelroy]

What does the MD add to oral surgery training?

For all intents and purposes, it adds nothing. Yes, I get that just like I get that our first year of basic sciences adds essentially nothing to our future careers as physicians. However, the point is the oral surgeon with the M.D. went to medical school and took additional courses that an oral surgeon without the M.D. did not. Thus they do have additional coursework in basic sciences and additional experience in clinical rotations that an oral surgeon without the M.D. training has. A physician is one who graduates from a medical school and thus an oral surgeon who didn't graduate from medical school is not a physician.

 

[toofache32]

For all intents and purposes, it adds nothing.... A physician is one who graduates from a medical school and thus an oral surgeon who didn't graduate from medical school is not a physician.

This is true. I was just wondering if you were making an exception to MD-oral surgeons because of the MD or if you consider there to be 2 "tiers" of oral surgeons. That's all.

 

[daelroy]

Its almost identical. Many of our basic science teachers teach the same subjects to the med students. Only real difference is the leg section of gross anatomy, which we dont cover.

This isn't exactly true. My uncle teaches at UCSF and told me they provide different exams to the dental and medical students. They ask more difficult questions to the medical students because they have to take Step I at the end of second year which requires a higher depth of knowledge than the dental board in regards to basic sciences. I believe Columbia offers two separate exams as well despite students sharing the same lecture hall?