MD medical education is not fit for 21st century

[kbb1]

If we’re talking pure numbers Medicine is easier to attain and safer. There shouldn’t be an argument there. For every 1 person who takes risks in business and becomes Uber successful, there’s at least 4 that fail.

Most people aren’t gonna be the “special case” that they were always told they would be when they were growing up. Which seems to be what you’re referring to in your points, at least from how I see it

Risk is relative!
Just because you don’t become the next mark zuckerberg does not mean you’ve failed. You can look into millennial startups and see that many people sell their ideas/business with a good profit for the next project. Just saying...

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[kbb1]

OP you got into medicine for bad reasons, the end.

I don’t think it’s for you to decide what is a bad reason and what is not. I think we all make choices for ourselves based on our unique life experiences and perspectives. I urge you to be more open minded if you are a doctor?

 

[GoSpursGo]

The way you argue your points by basing them off of “people you know”? It sounds like a lot of people you know are not successful at what they are doing. I’m sorry that’s your experience but there are also many people who do succeed in the marketplace. There’s are people who take risks and those who don’t. It’s not productive to argue which is better...?

I mean, you made your point based on "friends who studied comp sci," so you're also arguing your point based off "people you know."

As others have said, the success scenario in business is undoubtedly more lucrative. But not everyone who goes into business is successful--even ignoring the 7 figure-makers at Google, even selling your ideas/businesses at a profit is no guarantee--there are TONS of startups that you never hear about because they just go under, and trying to pretend that those fail scenarios don't exist is not realistic. On the other hand, just about everyone who goes to med school in the US can get a comfortable and relatively fulfilling job. Which path makes the most sense is a personal decision based on peoples' risk tolerance and what kind of day-to-day work they will find fulfilling, so your claim that "medical education is not fit for the 21st century," while provocative and click-bait-y, is a gross overstatement.

If you have the risk tolerance to jump in feet-first into business, by all means go for it. Come back in a few years and let us know how it worked out for you.

 

[kbb1]

I mean, you made your point based on "friends who studied comp sci," so you're also arguing your point based off "people you know."

As others have said, the success scenario in business is undoubtedly more lucrative. But not everyone who goes into business is successful--even ignoring the 7 figure-makers at Google, even selling your ideas/businesses at a profit is no guarantee--there are TONS of startups that you never hear about because they just go under, and trying to pretend that those fail scenarios don't exist is not realistic. On the other hand, just about everyone who goes to med school in the US can get a comfortable and relatively fulfilling job. Which path makes the most sense is a personal decision based on peoples' risk tolerance and what kind of day-to-day work they will find fulfilling, so your claim that "medical education is not fit for the 21st century," while provocative and click-bait-y, is a gross overstatement.

If you have the risk tolerance to jump in feet-first into business, by all means go for it. Come back in a few years and let us know how it worked out for you.

My mistake. I think my point still holds because anyone who went to a decent undergrad probably has friends who have done comp sci and are doing well.
If medical education is doing a good job, why is it that 30% (I will find the paper in a sec) of MS4 would have never done med school now v 7% or so back in 2006?

 

[Chibucks15]

My mistake. I think my point still holds because anyone who went to a decent undergrad probably has friends who have done comp sci and are doing well.
If medical education is doing a good job, why is it that 30% (I will find the paper in a sec) of MS4 would have never done med school now v 7% or so back in 2006?

Because nobody actually has experience in the field to see if it’s for them. They get the Hollywood version or hear about the glory days of medicine. Then when they get here, having never had a job before, it isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. Which kind of is the tone of your post to me.

The real world sucks, no matter what job you have. The goal is to make it suck as little as possible. But most med students never have had to work so they don’t get it

Not everything is like shark tank, and something like 50% of those deals fail too. Most people only have one good idea if they even have any at all. It purely isn’t sustainable unless you sell a company for billions like mark cuban

 

[VincentAdultman]

I don’t think it’s for you to decide what is a bad reason and what is not. I think we all make choices for ourselves based on our unique life experiences and perspectives. I urge you to be more open minded if you are a doctor?

You said that you thought medicine was the only way to have a rewarding and respected career and that it was never a calling. I mean that’s a objectively bad reason to to go into medicine and I don’t need to be more open minded on that any more than I need to be open minded on blood-letting to release bad humors.

 

[GoSpursGo]

My mistake. I think my point still holds because anyone who went to a decent undergrad probably has friends who have done comp sci and are doing well.
If medical education is doing a good job, why is it that 30% (I will find the paper in a sec) of MS4 would have never done med school now v 7% or so back in 2006?

I don't think whether an MS4 would choose to do med school again is a valid marker of whether going into medicine is a good career choice.

Furthermore, you're telling me that 70% of the people finishing training are happy with the field they're going into? That doesn't sound too bad to me, and if such data existed about other fields I wouldn't be surprised to find that it compares pretty favorably to people who are 2-3 years into their business career.

 

[kbb1]

I don't think whether an MS4 would choose to do med school again is a valid marker of whether going into medicine is a good career choice.

Furthermore, you're telling me that 70% of the people finishing training are happy with the field they're going into? That doesn't sound too bad to me, and if such data existed about other fields I wouldn't be surprised to find that it compares pretty favorably to people who are 2-3 years into their business career.

https://physiciansfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/physicians-survey-results-final-2018.pdf

I don’t know about you, but 55% people feel like they have low morale and 78% experiencing burnout seems pretty negative to me.

 

[kbb1]

I think that’s it’s great you guys seem to be enchanted by medicine. I just don’t see how someone in the 21st century could have such tunnel vision about career choices.

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

I think this is all relative to your upbringing. If you came from a wealthy background and had wealthy classmates, your perspective is likely skewed in regards to how easy it is to succeed in other fields. A lot of my wealthy friends from high school (a very affluent one to speak) are doing quite well, not necessary because of success or the nature of business, but rather because they had significant connections through family members. In comparison, people from my undergraduate that majored in business are struggling to find jobs. This idea of making 250k right out of undergrad from majoring in business/engineering is a bunch of nonsense for the average person

 

[GoSpursGo]

Sure, I'll get right on reading that 84 page document

I think that’s it’s great you guys seem to be enchanted by medicine. I just don’t see how someone in the 21st century could have such tunnel vision about career choices.

We don't. If you think you would be happier doing business and are convinced that you will be one of the successful ones, then by all means do it. But this whole narrative that people in medicine are miserable and nobody should do it is an overstatement, and also I think overestimates how happy people are in other fields--there are a lot of people in every field who are unhappy these days. Regardless, I'm really happy with my job.

 

[kbb1]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

 

[enalli]

Sure, but there is a lot of potential in startups to change how we do basic things. How is AI, machine learning, blockchain etc. all going to affect how medicine is practiced?
How important is health admins vs. doctors in delivery of care today?
Doctor's have no power in where the trajectory of medicine is going because they just keep their heads down.

Yes, the best of the best in computer science and engineering have improved and will continue to improve humanity. But it's also true that the best of the best of physicians and physician-scientists have improved and will continue to improve humanity.

Are you saying that you'd rather work hard to be the best of the best in computer science and engineering to change humanity, but not in medicine?

Also, I would be happy to hear the great contributions to society by management consultants.

 

[kbb1]

Sure, I'll get right on reading that 84 page document

We don't. If you think you would be happier doing business and are convinced that you will be one of the successful ones, then by all means do it. But this whole narrative that people in medicine are miserable and nobody should do it is an overstatement, and also I think overestimates how happy people are in other fields--there are a lot of people in every field who are unhappy these days. Regardless, I'm really happy with my job.

You don’t have to read the whole thing to grasp some of the important stats regarding burnout. I think it’s great that people can be happy in medicine. I just think that med edu could also be edited/more tailored to a changing world.

 

[kbb1]

Yes, the best of the best in computer science and engineering have improved and will continue to improve humanity. But it's also true that the best of the best of physicians and physician-scientists have improved and will continue to improve humanity.

Are you saying that you'd rather work hard to be the best of the best in computer science and engineering to change humanity, but not in medicine?

Also, I would be happy to hear the great contributions to society by management consultants.

Your view is short sighted. Should I list all the alumni of management consulting gigs? This is just McKinsey List of former employees of McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia

I’m fairly sure many of those people have literally changed the world, how we fundamentally trade and organize nations.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think that’s it’s great you guys seem to be enchanted by medicine. I just don’t see how someone in the 21st century could have such tunnel vision about career choices.

Medicine has a lot going for it: if you get accepted into med school you're pretty much guaranteed a 200k+ job within 7-10 years. No other field can promise you that. Yes some make more, but not everyone in those fields makes more.

Its not perfect by any stretch, but its about the safest bet to make a good living.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

Sure, let's do that.

I work 8-5 4 days a week and 8-12 the 5th day. 90 minutes for lunch. I don't work weekends. I don't work holidays. I don't work nights. I'm on home phone call 1 day per month. 30 days of vacation per year.

Man, the quality of life for medicine really sucks.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Sure, let's do that.

I work 8-5 4 days a week and 8-12 the 5th day. 90 minutes for lunch. I don't work weekends. I don't work holidays. I don't work nights. I'm on home phone call 1 day per month. 30 days of vacation per year.

Man, the quality of life for medicine really sucks.

Aside from when I’m on call for a week every six weeks, I would say my schedule is pretty good as well. 8-5 in the office, 1-2 OR days a week.

 

[managedcarefin]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

Sure, I work at 1 of the consulting firms listed here.

I wake up at 5am for a 6:45am flight I work on the 3 hour flight. I get to the client then work til 6pm. Workout for an hour and log back in till 10pm. I then repeat all 8am - 8pm all week. I do the reserve flight on thursday get home around 8pm. I'll have a light Friday. Weekend work happens but not always. Quality of life is relative to a situation.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Your view is short sighted. Should I list all the alumni of management consulting gigs? This is just McKinsey List of former employees of McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia

I’m fairly sure many of those people have literally changed the world, how we fundamentally trade and organize nations.

I think it's pretty telling that you're basing your claim that medical education is poor on the opinions of a bunch of MS4, yet you're telling an attending that he/she is short-sighted.

Again, you are solely looking at the success stories outside of medicine and willfully ignoring the failures. Once you're in medical school, it is very difficult to truly fail in the long-term. If medicine is not for you, that's totally fine, it's not for everyone, but I really don't understand the insistence that your point of view is the only valid one. You'll find unhappy people in all walks of life, and the ones who are unhappy in medicine may well have been unhappy regardless of the field they chose..

 

[VincentAdultman]

 

[Terry Toma]

Ample opportunity exists to tailor your education based on whatever interests you have beyond straight clinical medicine. You can study anything you want in undergrad. You can take a gap year or two to gain professional experience that will complement your medical education. You can spend M1 summer doing basically anything you want. You can do research in all kinds of different fields. You can do a dual degree.

If you wanted your career to consist of part clinical work and part business, tech, etc., that is certainly attainable and you could have done a lot of different things to set yourself up for this. I just don't see that a medical degree is nearly as restrictive as you make it out to be. It may take some planning and creativity to get where you want to be, but people with MDs are doing all kinds of professional work.

 

[T687]

I can see how you have this perspective if you come from a wealthy family/area and largely judge success by those metrics. As someone who worked for one of the major tech companies and in consulting, it's very difficult for me to see how anyone could think that being a physician has less of an impact (especially than management consulting where you're basically getting paid to tell companies what they should already know). You should consider that your view of these fields vs. the reality of these fields is equivalent to what a normal person on the street thinks being a doctor is like vs. what it's actually like.

At the end of the day, making big money in "business" devolves to sales ability, even in consulting and investment banking, and in my opinion there's nothing world changing or fulfilling about that. Most of your advancement is based on who you know and the relationships you've cultivated, not your ability level (beyond a certain minimum). That's the reason why you see all of these alumni in high positions at other organizations. In tech, even if you're working on a major life changing technology, you're probably 1 of hundreds working on it. The lifestyle of both fields can be terrible and variable just like medicine. You don't have much life when you're essentially always on call at these big firms and you aren't even in your home city the majority of the year, even if you are earning a lot.

I'm sure life in medical school/residency can be terrible but if you want the lifestyle when you finish you can have it. The "successful" people at these consulting firms/tech companies/banks can never stop grinding for their entire career because the major companies and organizations won't hesitate at all to drop basically anyone over a short term failure and all of their peers are competing for their spots.

 

[kbb1]

I can see how you have this perspective if you come from a wealthy family/area and largely judge success by those metrics. As someone who worked for one of the major tech companies and in consulting, it's very difficult for me to see how anyone could think that being a physician has less of an impact (especially than management consulting where you're basically getting paid to tell companies what they should already know). You should consider that your view of these fields vs. the reality of these fields is equivalent to what a normal person on the street thinks being a doctor is like vs. what it's actually like.

At the end of the day, making big money in "business" devolves to sales ability, even in consulting and investment banking, and in my opinion there's nothing world changing or fulfilling about that. Most of your advancement is based on who you know and the relationships you've cultivated, not your ability level (beyond a certain minimum). That's the reason why you see all of these alumni in high positions at other organizations. In tech, even if you're working on a major life changing technology, you're probably 1 of hundreds working on it. The lifestyle of both fields can be terrible and variable just like medicine. You don't have much life when you're essentially always on call at these big firms and you aren't even in your home city the majority of the year, even if you are earning a lot.

I'm sure life in medical school/residency can be terrible but if you want the lifestyle when you finish you can have it. The "successful" people at these consulting firms/tech companies/banks can never stop grinding for their entire career because the major companies and organizations won't hesitate at all to drop basically anyone over a short term failure and all of their peers are competing for their spots.

Thank you for your insight. Everything you have said is really important. I don’t think that either is objectively better than another. I think it’s all relative, like you’ve pretty much summed up!
But I don’t know why people are in denial about how medical training/career could be better. Just because it’s tolerable by some people’s standards does not make it acceptable to be static.
A lot of attendings say that things are so much easier today (hours and all) so we should be grateful... how does that make sense?

 

[libertyyne]

There are number of jobs including mgmt consulting, hospital administration, device design, public health, advocacy, research that are easier to obtain as an MD compared to lay people with just a BS or MS in some random thing.

There are infinite avenues you can pursue on your own which include starting businesses that you dont really need formal education for, even in comp sci you can do stuff . Coding boot camps exist, exec MBAs etc are a way to skill up. A lot of these positions do not require formal education, rather you need skills to get an in , and once you are in you need to grind.

The problem with all of this is opportunity cost with an MD in clinical medicine you are looking at 250+, where as start-ups ,your own businesss and other positions you are going to get a 50%pay cut to say the least. No one is stopping you from doing those things.

 

[libertyyne]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

Go work for the CDC or other govermental gigs that pay below market value for physicans. Lifestyle will be better.


I came into this thread expecting an exposition on how schools are dead and that everyone should just study on their own and take step 1 , and then apply for clinical rotations.

 

[deleted480308]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

You ever tar a roof in florida? Don’t try and tell me about the bad quality of life in medicine.

 

[CidHighwind]

Can we just forget about money for 1 second?
Think about quality of life.

How? Quality of life is tied to how much you make. You can’t be happy if you’re always worried about bills and expenses. For the vast majority of people, there really isn’t any realistic job that pays as well as medicine. Even most CEOs don’t make as much as a physician does.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I am a software engineer who left medical school (check my AMA in pre-DO).

The grass isn’t necessarily greener, it’s just different. I would say, on the whole, I personally made the right call. I legitimately have had 6 figure offers within 1 year of being in my career. However it definitely is not like you just “learn computer science” and then magically you are set for life.

Even in computer science you can extremely easily become funneled into a job that feels really difficult to have transferable skills. You legit have to adapt, and in some cases go back to square one and learn and entirely new set of skills (often forfeiting higher pay). Also doing this, while you are already working your 9-5. It actually shares a lot of the lifelong learning attributes, and the work outside of work, that medicine has.

Yes, there are “tons” of jobs, and lots of good work out there. But you learn very quickly that your area of expertise defines a lot about your career. You can’t just say you are a programmer and magically land any job you want. There are vast differences between different types of developers who use different frameworks, languages, program different things, etc. And once you start going down a route, it can be very difficult to change - your resume defines you.

I guess rambling aside... I would never argue the case of medicine vs computer science jobs. They are so incredibly different and offer such different things to people, the economy and world. The bigger argument is really why you stuck it out if you were miserable after like year 1. Definitely wouldn’t have hurt anything to try some programming or something during summer between MS1 and 2.

I feel you on a high level that yes, on a societal level there absolutely is a mantra of “good job” = medicine (or simply tons of schooling). And I think that is producing a ton of unhappy people in lots of different fields. I think the distinction with medicine is that it is such a commitment (financial and time) that people cannot gracefully enter and then leave. So the question is simply why didn’t you when you had the chance? I think that is the thing you need to reconcile, and then how to use the knowledge and degree that you do (will) have to achieve the lifestyle that you want.

 

[yakarma11]

MS4 here reflecting on coming to medical school. The following are just my personal views, so don't attack me if you disagree!
I think that we live in a really exciting time in history where globalization is rapid and there are so many high impact and rewarding careers. But I don't think I've really realized that until fairly recently. I have always had this shadow over me, telling me that medicine is the only way that I can have a rewarding and respected career. Medicine was never a calling for me. Because of how miserable I have been the past 2-3 years in med school, I've taken a lot of time to reflect on why I'm still pursuing this career. At the end of the day, i think the pull for me has always been a socially constructed idea of what it means to have a "good job." Then I realized that these ideas were shaped by assumptions formed so long ago that they're essentially meaningless today.
Anyway, I have friends who studied comp sci, now working at google/microsoft/startups that are doing amazing work that seem not only rewarding on a professional level but actually making a difference in the world. There are also people who have gone into mgmt consulting doing a lot of diverse work/traveling and making career advancements that I feel like would be nearly impossible to achieve from a medical education.
In a way, I guess I feel like medical school/medical degree is good for nothing except for practicing medicine. It's like a certificate of completion, but then you're trapped into committing in additional 4 years to residency and not a lot of room for creativity/career advancement or real impact in the long run.
What do you guys think?

I mean since you were an M1, it can be argued that medical school education has changed drastically. There have been many changes to curriculums at medical schools to allow for diversity in experience during medical school. More and more schools are beginning to allow students to do electives separate from the traditional curriculum. For example, at GW, you can now explore different avenues while in school (public policy in DC, clinical research, community health, etc). With fewer lectures being mandatory, students can take advantage of more free time to pursue other interests. It's not seen as abnormal anymore to take a year off (for example a small med youtuber I occasionally watched interned for a year with the Dr. Oz show b/w third and fourth year). I think that most med students prefer to take the traditional route because most just want to just do patient care. Hence, why most med students see attempts by schools to help branch med students out as taking time away from their studies. I also think schools offering dual degrees (MD/MBA, MD/JD, MD/MPH) is the best way for med students to make themselves valuable candidates outside the medical field

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Medicine is a bad field for rich kids because it's (relatively) fair. No reason to play by the rules when you're born with connections. /endthread

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Medicine is a bad field for rich kids because it's (relatively) fair. No reason to play by the rules when you're born with connections. /endthread

Tell that to the intern that scrambled into my old FM program and then miraculously got a PGY-1 spot the next year at the OB program where her father is an attending...

 

[enalli]

Your view is short sighted. Should I list all the alumni of management consulting gigs? This is just McKinsey List of former employees of McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia

I’m fairly sure many of those people have literally changed the world, how we fundamentally trade and organize nations.

Are you seriously trying to say that management consulting is impactful because its alumni have done impactful things after leaving consulting? Your might as well say that acting ended the cold war because Ronald Reagan used to be an actor.

 

[bobjonesbob]

To give you some prospective, the “hyper-competitive” specialties in medicine have match rates from 50-75%. For some of those other jobs, the acceptance rate is much, MUCH lower. For instance, Google has 500 applicants for 1 spot.

You're forgetting that a lot of selection (MCAT, medical school acceptance, step 1, application fees) has already taken place when you get to the point where someone is applying for a competitive residency spot. Any undergrad engineer can apply to google for free.

 

[shouldvestudied]

Here is an easy decision tree to help you decide if you made a mistake by going to medical school:

1) Did you go to an Ivy League school or Stanford or MIT? If yes, go to 5. If no, go to 2.

2) Have you ever been identified as gifted in math? If yes, go to 6. If no, go to 3.

3) Do you test well? Did you crush the CARS section of the MCAT? If yes, go to 7. If no, go to 4.

4) Congratulations, you made the right decision going to medical school. You get to do a job that isn't actively harmful while having some of the highest job security in the country. You will most likely be in the top 2% of earners from your thirties onward and you will have the luxury of being able to work almost anywhere you want as long as that isn't in the middle of NYC or SF.

5) Yep, you ****ed up. You could have gone into consulting or finance (assuming you aren't math-phobic like 50% of med students) and made more money than in medicine. You would almost assuredly be actively making the world worse but you would be better off financially.

6) Yep, you ****ed up. You could've majored in CS/Math/Physics/EE and been raking in ****loads of money at FAANG. Your job would most likely involve finding ways to better harvest everyone's personal info and use it to sell them ads but you would be better off financially.

7) You might have ****ed up. Even if you got into a T14 Law school, which is tough unless you're coming from a good undergrad with a high LSAT, you still need to be at least top 25% to be guaranteed a Big Law gig. But if you were one of the lucky ones and you don't have any qualms about helping a company like Dow Chemical avoid its civil obligations to people whom they killed or maimed then you would be better off financially.

 

[CidHighwind]

You're forgetting that a lot of selection (MCAT, medical school acceptance, step 1, application fees) has already taken place when you get to the point where someone is applying for a competitive residency spot. Any undergrad engineer can apply to google for free.

Who cares about the application if they don’t pick you? I doubt Google pays for the plane ticket if you’re selected for interview, and I don’t think a 99.8 percent rejection rate is encouraging. ~40% of applicants get accepted to medical school. Again, no realistic job pays as well as medicine.

 

[Splenda88]

Where are all these zillionaire businessmen/women?

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

 

[Select All That Apply]

Who cares about the application if they don’t pick you? I doubt Google pays for the plane ticket if you’re selected for interview, and I don’t think a 99.8 percent rejection rate is encouraging. ~40% of applicants get accepted to medical school. Again, no realistic job pays as well as medicine.

Google pays for on-site interviews. But there are usually at least two or more screening interviews before the on-site interview.

 

[Scrubb]

OP, how do you write the first half of your post and then follow with the examples of tech/computer sci and management consulting? I was expecting examples that are a little less mainstream and actually impactful and rewarding.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Here is an easy decision tree to help you decide if you made a mistake by going to medical school:

1) Did you go to an Ivy League school or Stanford or MIT? If yes, go to 5. If no, go to 2.

2) Have you ever been identified as gifted in math? If yes, go to 6. If no, go to 3.

3) Do you test well? Did you crush the CARS section of the MCAT? If yes, go to 7. If no, go to 4.

4) Congratulations, you made the right decision going to medical school. You get to do a job that isn't actively harmful while having some of the highest job security in the country. You will most likely be in the top 2% of earners from your thirties onward and you will have the luxury of being able to work almost anywhere you want as long as that isn't in the middle of NYC or SF.

5) Yep, you ****ed up. You could have gone into consulting or finance (assuming you aren't math-phobic like 50% of med students) and made more money than in medicine. You would almost assuredly be actively making the world worse but you would be better off financially.

6) Yep, you ****ed up. You could've majored in CS/Math/Physics/EE and been raking in ****loads of money at FAANG. Your job would most likely involve finding ways to better harvest everyone's personal info and use it to sell them ads but you would be better off financially.

7) You might have ****ed up. Even if you got into a T14 Law school, which is tough unless you're coming from a good undergrad with a high LSAT, you still need to be at least top 25% to be guaranteed a Big Law gig. But if you were one of the lucky ones and you don't have any qualms about helping a company like Dow Chemical avoid its civil obligations to people whom they killed or maimed then you would be better off financially.

too much truth

 

[Goro]

OP, how do you write the first half of your post and then follow with the examples of tech/computer sci and management consulting? I was expecting examples that are a little less mainstream and actually impactful and rewarding.

What I got out of the OP was that he was complaining that an MD isn't as broad a career stepping stone is as compared to an UG liberal arts degree.

 

[Lucca]

This discussion on SDN always devolves into Banking/Consulting/Tech/Big Law vs. Medicine but this is falling into the same trap that the OP described IMO.

There are school districts where teachers are compensated very well. If you are a motivated, smart, driven individual there is a huge need for excellent teachers and if you play your cards right you can have a well compensated job, with benefits, a large amount of freedom for side projects during the summer, and good quality of life. Are you going to be popping bottles on your G5 @ 30 yo? No but you’ll probably live a comfortable life. It’s also good for ppl who like lifelong learning and as you become more experienced there are opportunities to have a broader impact through research, leadership, policy.

Do you like working with your hands and having technical skill but don’t want to make the sacrifices that come with being a surgeon? You can become a plumber, electrician, carpenter and make good money, even more if you eventually get enough clientele and experience to become an independent contractor or maybe join a group that helps make homes. You get to help people, make them happy, get paid good money, work as much or as little as you want depending on what you want to get paid, etc. Your parents might not brag as much about you to their friends but you’ll have $$+QOL and be doing something positive with your life as long as you are not scamming old people of their pension money or something.

Someone with the drive to make it to medical school doesn’t only have to fight for the most prestigious, uber competitive jobs. There’s a lot out there you can do.

Judging Medicine as a job by residency is dumb imo. It’s a long time and it’s rly rly hard and requires many sacrifices but it’s also a sliver of a very long career lifespan.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

George Miller, the creator of Mad Max who is also a physician, thinks you just lack vision.

Not to mention Arthur Conan Doyle and Michael Crichton.

 

[Goro]

Not to mention Arthur Conan Doyle and Michael Crichton.

And Anton Chekhov

 

[Kardio]

I don't understand threads like these.

This post started off with the "impactfulness" of medicine relative to other careers. This is an X-Ray from 1929. In that year, Dr. Werner Forssmann became the first human being to have been catheterized. Against the wishes of his home institution, he performed the procedure on himself. In 1956, his stunt won him a Nobel Prize. I can't even estimate the number of lives that have been saved in the 90 years since this photograph was taken.

You don't have to do something so dramatic (or, admittedly, crazy) to have an impact in medicine. I have this weird feeling that traditional research and publications actually serve a purpose outside of buffing your residency/fellowship applications. In the day-to-day, I think it's easy to forget that you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Adding some height to that giant, for the next generation, is a choice you get to make. Appreciating just how high you're really sitting, and the opportunities you have to change the world, is a matter of perspective.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Much depends upon how you define "impact". In the last month I have:

1. Diagnosed a patient who others thought had some sort of leukemia / bone marrow failure with Anaplasma, he completely recovered.
2. Managed a guy with opioid use disorder admitted with MSSA septic joint and epidural abscess. All of his infections had basically been treated, now just on a long course of Abx. No one had addressed his pain and opioid problem, he was using all sorts of narcs. I switched him to methadone, which he was unwilling to consider with others but I sat with him every day, listened to his story, bonded with him. He trusted me, we switched him to methadone TID, and then moved him to single day dosing so that when he is finally discharged he can transition to a methadone clinic. He seems committed to staying off heroin. Will he? I don't know, but I think he has a chance.
3. Put my 94 yo patient whom I follow with home visits on hospice. I plan to be at his funeral and speak.

I'll trade your Google impact for just that any day, and that's just the last few weeks. I love going to work. I get to interact with fascinating people, manage complicated problems, work with skilled colleagues, and students.

Could I have made more money doing something else? Probably. Do I end up working a bunch of weekends? Yep, and it can be frustrating. Is some of what I do incredibly frustrating? Absolutely. Would I trade it for anything else? Absolutely not.

 

[ergotamine]

MS4 here reflecting on coming to medical school. The following are just my personal views, so don't attack me if you disagree!
I think that we live in a really exciting time in history where globalization is rapid and there are so many high impact and rewarding careers. But I don't think I've really realized that until fairly recently. I have always had this shadow over me, telling me that medicine is the only way that I can have a rewarding and respected career. Medicine was never a calling for me. Because of how miserable I have been the past 2-3 years in med school, I've taken a lot of time to reflect on why I'm still pursuing this career. At the end of the day, i think the pull for me has always been a socially constructed idea of what it means to have a "good job." Then I realized that these ideas were shaped by assumptions formed so long ago that they're essentially meaningless today.

OP, I feel you. I'm sorry your post is getting backlash in sdn, but it is sdn lol. I totally get what you are saying. Although like you and few others (maybe) I made a mistake of jumping into medicine before exploring other options. If you find opportunities for mds without residency, do let me know

 

[VincentAdultman]

Much depends upon how you define "impact". In the last month I have:

1. Diagnosed a patient who others thought had some sort of leukemia / bone marrow failure with Anaplasma, he completely recovered.
2. Managed a guy with opioid use disorder admitted with MSSA septic joint and epidural abscess. All of his infections had basically been treated, now just on a long course of Abx. No one had addressed his pain and opioid problem, he was using all sorts of narcs. I switched him to methadone, which he was unwilling to consider with others but I sat with him every day, listened to his story, bonded with him. He trusted me, we switched him to methadone TID, and then moved him to single day dosing so that when he is finally discharged he can transition to a methadone clinic. He seems committed to staying off heroin. Will he? I don't know, but I think he has a chance.
3. Put my 94 yo patient whom I follow with home visits on hospice. I plan to be at his funeral and speak.

I'll trade your Google impact for just that any day, and that's just the last few weeks. I love going to work. I get to interact with fascinating people, manage complicated problems, work with skilled colleagues, and students.

Could I have made more money doing something else? Probably. Do I end up working a bunch of weekends? Yep, and it can be frustrating. Is some of what I do incredibly frustrating? Absolutely. Would I trade it for anything else? Absolutely not.

And that’s the great thing about medicine! Because while I find all of that very boring medicine gives me the opportunity to drill holes into people’s bones. There’s something for everyone!

 

[vernhart]

I don’t know what your experience has been in med school but I have never actually seen anyone’s life ‘being saved.’ A lot of work is maintenance of really uninspiring things...

Well if it's going well you won't even notice it being done. It's too routine. The problem is you are around it too much to appreciate it. Same goes for many patients. Many don't realize that without that "maintenance" medication, they would be dead. You know what happens to animals in the wild who get septic? They die. You see a life being saved every single day, but you are taking it for granted (as do most of us most of the time).

TLDR: we savin' lives on the daily but we make that ish look easy

 

[nimbus]

My nephew graduated last summer with a degree in aerospace engineering from a top engineering school and is now a year into working in a well paying job at Northrop Grumman. It is not as fulfilling as he had hoped so he’s now thinking of taking prereqs to apply to medical school.

He’s young. OP is young. You all have time. For me medicine wasn’t fun or fulfilling until I became an attending and was able to do things the way I think they should be done.