Medical Education- What you need to know, nuts and bolts of it.

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voodoomagic

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Aspiring medical students need to know some things. Mostly, regarding specialties, and how Hospitals (i.e., your employer) treats them. Bottom line: It doesn't matter if you are the smartest medical student in your class. If you choose any Non-Surgical, or Non-interventional procedural field, you are the bottom of the food chain. Your life, and consequently your family's life will be unstable. Corporate medicine is a real thing. It's now a very big thing. Most of you will never know true academic practice or true private practice. Most specialties are not respected, or valued. For instance, as an Anesthesiologist, you will often hear Nurses say to the patient, "The Doctor will be by shortly to see you and talk to you." This implies many things. But, here is the order of what you should choose if you wish to have a successful and stable occupation as a Physician. After all, considering the loans you will take and the time and grit you will put forth, you must reap its benefits to the fullest.

#1. Interventional Cardiology. Most people will have heart disease. Most people prefer to eat what they want and get heart attacks, rather than follow a healthy lifestyle. You will have tons of patients, tons of devices and procedures to perform. Hospitals love interventional cardiologists because of billing capture. So, you will be coddled, sucked up to and paid. I know this interventional cardiologist who managed to keep his job even though he grabbed a surgical tech by the neck and threw him up against the wall. He brought the hospital a lot of money. He still does, and he makes a lot of money. Close to $1M a year!

#2. Orthopedic Surgery. Most joint surgeries don't need to be done. The US is one of the highest performers of joint replacements. Cash cow in many ways. Sure, CMS doesn't reimburse much for the surgery portion itself. But there's facility fees (you make a ton of $ on facility fees), Physical Therapy reimbursements, and basic contracts with hospitals. You make over $1M a year!

#3. Spine Surgery.

#4. Vascular Surgery.

Fields NOT to go into.

#1. Anesthesiology. Very political. Stressful in ways you don't expect.
#2. Primary Care. Same as above. This includes Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Family Practice. CRNAs make more than either of these specialties. They make as much as Anesthesiologists in many places. CMS reimburses NPs and Physicians the same.

Salaries in above specialties are well below $400 in most places. Not a bad income whatsoever. But, most people underestimate Hospitals' greed. They don't care about how smart you are, or were, your commitment, your skills etc. Cheapest is all that's needed. Consequently, there's a lot of career threats and instability and very little incentive (aside from the fact that you're doing the right thing) to stand up for the right things (patient advocate). It'll wreck your career.

If you're going to do Medicine, choose wisely.

Politicians and Congress, as you already know, are not working for public welfare. They are representatives of a very small minority, which wants to have two classes (the haves and the have nots). You are an expense, at the end of medical school. The incentive of you going to medical school financially, is for others unless you choose the top 4 specialties above. People make money off of your loans. That's really what it's all about. The rest is made up glory. You can do good in any and many professions.

Country and Medicare is going broke. No one will want to pay you. And to do that, they will stoop to many new lows including devaluing your training, dehumanizing you as a Physician (treating you as a commodity) and catering to different Physicians of different specialties in vastly different ways. Justice, is also, biased.

I'm sorry to post a cynical and bleak thread. Most of you lived through the Financial crisis as teenagers I presume. But you must have made observations.

It will be okay in about 20+ years, but the next 20 years, Medicare expenses are going to go up (Boomers) and to maintain Corporate profit (egregious profit), they will cut you down to pieces. So think this through.

No faculty member in Medical School will tell you these things, because they want you to have an open mind. Which you should.

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Ortho surgeon here. The average compensation for our field is 450-550,000, not a million. Would like to see your sources on the statement that “most joint surgeries don’t need to be done” considering you need a radiographically proven diagnosis of end-stage arthritis (and/or a demonstrated failure of therapy, injections, and other modalities) to do a total joint.

Med students, please be careful about the sources of info you choose to trust.
 
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Ortho surgeon here. The average compensation for our field is 450-550,000, not a million. Would like to see your sources on the statement that “most joint surgeries don’t need to be done” considering you need a radiographically proven diagnosis of end-stage arthritis (and/or a demonstrated failure of therapy, injections, and other modalities) to do a total joint.

Med students, please be careful about the sources of info you choose to trust.

This 100x, what the heck did I just read in the original post
 
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Lol primary care fields make more than CRNAs on average by a solid $50,000+, not the other way around.
 
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Lol primary care fields make more than CRNAs on average by a solid $50,000+, not the other way around.
Okay. Like I said, do your own research. I said take what I say with a grain of salt.

Anyone could be posting replies on here and saying whatever they want because they can.

"Ortho Trauma" is likely Academic. For Academics, that is good W2. Regarding wages for CRNAs and primary MDs, do your own homework- search job posts. I have friends in Primary Care, Relatives in Primary Care (including Peds). Look at what's going on in Anesthesiology within the VA system. Think critically.

The essence of what I am saying is, be cognizant of the field you are choosing. Remember, out there, your MD (or D.O.) carries less weight than you would like to think it does. Your training matters less than you think, it should. But it should matter to you, and that's what counts. To the patients you take care of, and their families. But to Hospital Administrators and Politicians? No. Your Cost matters. Your salary, matters to them. Just look outside the box of pre-med, and explore the conversations going on. Why do you have to take my word for it?

What does matter (has been the case for a long time even before I was in Medicine) is how much $ you bring to the hospital. It's just a bit worse now. Your interests (your group's interests), will be treated accordingly. Most Anesthesiologists on SDN will attest to this. We see the ugly of hospital administrators and Politicians. You can certainly "choose" what you want to believe or who you want to "trust".

I never asked you to trust me, or use me as your sole resource.

Don't have your blinders on.

As for "unnecessary" joint replacements, again, do your own critical thinking and research.

If you do go Pre-Med, you need to know the world you're getting into. It behooves you to not listen to me, but it would serve you better, to learn the truth on your own.
 
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It's geographically dependent and also you have to consider the cost of med school (100-400k depending on MD/DO/Public/Private/scholarships etc) and the additional years of training vs $50k for CRNA (or paid for by hospital) and finish 3-5 years sooner)

Where I live CRNAs average $195k vs ~200k for peds, 230k for FM. When you take the above into consideration it makes more sense financially to go the CRNA route. I'd bet CRNA hourly is even higher considering FM/Peds take their work home with them and continuity of care and what not. Now... if you're going into ortho/pp psych/rads/anesthesia or a surgical field then you'll outearn CRNAs by a mile
You have to advise them to be fully cognizant of the various factors at play in Medicine. Again, at the VA for instance, a simple Memo rather than any legislative process was attempted to be used to supplant Physician-Led Anesthesiology. So, while the salary is a separate issue, at work are more fundamental aspects changing the way of Clinical care delivery. That's more important, in my opinion. Needless to say, wages will then drop, the profits going the way of the Big Corporations, and the ramifications being two-tiered care, and not to mention.. what the heck is going to be the training of those who take care of us as patients in the future to come.
 
Hospitals love interventional cardiologist because of billing capture. So, you will be coddled, sucked up to and paid. I know this interventional cardiologist who managed to keep his job even though he grabbed a surgical tech by the neck and threw him up against the wall. He brought the hospital a lot of money. He still does, and he makes a lot of money. Close to $1M a year!

I don't know why, but this tickled my funny bone :laugh:
 
It's geographically dependent and also you have to consider the cost of med school (100-400k depending on MD/DO/Public/Private/scholarships etc) and the additional years of training vs $50k for CRNA (or paid for by hospital) and finish 3-5 years sooner)

Where I live CRNAs average $195k vs ~200k for peds, 230k for FM. When you take the above into consideration it makes more sense financially to go the CRNA route. I'd bet CRNA hourly is even higher considering FM/Peds take their work home with them and continuity of care and what not. Now... if you're going into ortho/pp psych/rads/anesthesia or a surgical field then you'll outearn CRNAs by a mile
I never meant to say that being a doctor is a better investment when considering length of training and debt, I agree with you there. Just wanted to point out that as far as I am aware virtually any field of medicine makes more per year than a CRNA
 
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Life is funny when you think about it.

Being a Physician is worth it if you can go in without your blinders on, navigate the Hospital "Caste system", take pride in what you do (learn more than you are expected to, do as much for your patient as you can), knowing that what you do means a lot to your patient, prepare yourself for instability in your career, a "tax" on your marriage (i.e., a Spouse who understands these variables in Medicine, usually only another Physician understands) and still find your happiness in life. That happiness may not come from Medicine, and you may find it "despite" Medicine. And find some Happiness in parts of Medicine.

Ultimately, you already know what you must know by now, after the aftermath of the '08 Financial Crisis. There.. are.. No.. Rules. Life... is a meat market. Even in Medicine (stakes are higher). Don't think you're escaping it- just get all the facts (like OrthoTrauma said, not from me alone).
 
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Why did he grab the surg tech by the neck? I can't help but picture a rabid doctor holding a frightened surg tech against a wall :rofl:
 
Lmao what?

So you're saying the only careers that are worth it are three very specific and niche specialties? So like the vast, vast majority of doctors (who are in IM and primary care) are just miserable and wasting away???

I think the most useful thing about this post is that it re-iterates that you should not go into medicine only for the money, because if so, then yes, it probably will be soul-sucking.
 
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Lmao what?

So you're saying the only careers that are worth it are three very specific and niche specialties? So like the vast, vast majority of doctors (who are in IM and primary care) are just miserable and wasting away???

I think the most useful thing about this post is that it re-iterates that you should not go into medicine only for the money, because if so, then yes, it probably will be soul-sucking.
I am saying that. Barring a few Specialties, it should be clear to anyone who’s researched the employment aspects of being a Physician that “the job” can be done by anyone. You may call it a race to the bottom but the reality is what it is. The insulation of being a novice, or the halls of academic medicine (Training) won't allow you to be privy to the facts "out there". The message is being sent loud and clear that Mid-Levels are all that are needed and required for most Medical Care in the US. That's the trend when you consider that most of Medicine is "corporate medicine", the only form of Medicine you will ever experience (vastly different from just 10 years ago). Even the Government, will let you practice different specialties of Medicine without going to Medical School. Applicants simply need to do their research is all. And decide. I mean if you like Anesthesia do you really need to be a Doctor to do it? Is it worth it? Same with Primary Care. But in fields like Interventional Cardiology, Surgery, Rad Onc.. it's still a Physician-Only landscape. So if you’re going to put time and money (time being more precious).. think.

Yes, most IM and Primary Care Physicians are burning out. 20 years past Med School, some of the smartest people I know (AOA) experience what you will as well. They all start out with Denial- it’s a sad truth.

Not everyone goes into Medicine for money (if they do, they certainly don't belong in Business), but it can still be soul-sucking. That's exactly the point. Depending on your choice of Specialty, you will face different obstacles. And if you're going to do it, you may want to consider the long-term ramifications of your choices. You're going to be asked why do we need Physicians to do what you do? It's already being asked, if you have your eyes and ears open at all. Therefore, if this is the end-point, why Medical School? That's the point of the original post- not salary distribution across various specialties.

Anyone who thinks it's "funny" that a Surgeon grabs the neck of a scrub tech has already lost "it". Nothing about it is funny.
 
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I am saying that. Barring a few Specialties, it should be clear to anyone who’s researched the employment aspects of being a Physician that “the job” can be done by anyone. You may call it a race to the bottom but the reality is what it is. The insulation of being a novice, or the halls of academic medicine (Training) won't allow you to be privy to the facts "out there". The message is being sent loud and clear that Mid-Levels are all that are needed and required for most Medical Care in the US. That's the trend when you consider that most of Medicine is "corporate medicine", the only form of Medicine you will ever experience (vastly different from just 10 years ago). Even the Government, will let you practice different specialties of Medicine without going to Medical School. Applicants simply need to do their research is all. And decide. I mean if you like Anesthesia do you really need to be a Doctor to do it? Is it worth it? Same with Primary Care. But in fields like Interventional Cardiology, Surgery, Rad Onc.. it's still a Physician-Only landscape. So if you’re going to put time and money (time being more precious).. think.

Yes, most IM and Primary Care Physicians are burning out. 20 years past Med School, some of the smartest people I know (AOA) experience what you will as well. They all start out with Denial- it’s a sad truth.

Not everyone goes into Medicine for money (if they do, they certainly don't belong in Business), but it can still be soul-sucking. That's exactly the point. Depending on your choice of Specialty, you will face different obstacles. And if you're going to do it, you may want to consider the long-term ramifications of your choices. You're going to be asked why do we need Physicians to do what you do? It's already being asked, if you have your eyes and ears open at all. Therefore, if this is the end-point, why Medical School? That's the point of the original post- not salary distribution across various specialties.

Anyone who thinks it's "funny" that a Surgeon grabs the neck of a scrub tech has already lost "it". Nothing about it is funny.
Well, I plan on working with underserved communities so that people who don't have access to health care can receive it, and that is something that another person won't do if I don't go into medicine. In that way, I think I will be able to make a real impact in my career and have pride in it.
 
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That’s good. True and pure. Listen, the point of this was to get Med students (and pre Med students) to realize some things. Every medical student I know went into it for the right reasons, including myself. We are good people for the most part (although sociological research suggests the largest number of Sociopaths are found in Surgery and the executive suite :) seriously). I digress but we’re not any different than most other people out there- good at heart. But the Reality in our Profession does something to many of our lives. This Reality is written by the same people who orchestrated 2008 and other such social disasters.

I just want pre-meds and Med students to not be heartbroken by the Reality that awaits them.

Who makes money off of Med student loans? Who makes money off of asking well-trained Physicians to prove their “value”? Do Hospitals really “value” you? Does the US Government?

Just ask yourselves these questions.

Harvard Med students, years ago, took a stance against Pharma. All they managed to do was take away my free pens and some lunches.

Who does Big Pharma support? What’s the price of Insulin? What’s the story behind Insulin?

You think society operates in a righteous way and that all Physicians and their training are “valued”. Maybe.. but look around you.

I’m just asking you to dive in fully aware. We’re approaching a two-tier system in many ways- not just healthcare. In fact we’re already there. For instance, look at how “insider trading” is treated for members of Congress vs general public. People write policies they wish to enforce on others but not themselves. It’s spun in dizzying ways of moral high grounds. Don’t buy it.

Do what makes you happy- but happiness is in your character. If you can live with that, you can live with any blistering reality of Medicine you will encounter which is sure to be worse for the Millennial and two generations after them. Just .. be aware... of Reality. And choose.

I’ve got two kids counting on the expertise of well trained pre-meds and Med students like you all. But their well being depends on your well being.

Challenge the system.
 
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That’s good. True and pure. Listen, the point of this was to get Med students (and pre Med students) to realize some things. Every medical student I know went into it for the right reasons, including myself. We are good people for the most part (although sociological research suggests the largest number of Sociopaths are found in Surgery and the executive suite :) seriously). I digress but we’re not any different than most other people out there- good at heart. But the Reality in our Profession does something to many of our lives. This Reality is written by the same people who orchestrated 2008 and other such social disasters.

I just want pre-meds and Med students to not be heartbroken by the Reality that awaits them.

Who makes money off of Med student loans? Who makes money off of asking well-trained Physicians to prove their “value”? Do Hospitals really “value” you? Does the US Government?

Just ask yourselves these questions.

Harvard Med students, years ago, took a stance against Pharma. All they managed to do was take away my free pens and some lunches.

Who does Big Pharma support? What’s the price of Insulin? What’s the story behind Insulin?

You think society operates in a righteous way and that all Physicians and their training are “valued”. Maybe.. but look around you.

I’m just asking you to dive in fully aware. We’re approaching a two-tier system in many ways- not just healthcare. In fact we’re already there. For instance, look at how “insider trading” is treated for members of Congress vs general public. People write policies they wish to enforce on others but not themselves. It’s spun in dizzying ways of moral high grounds. Don’t buy it.

Do what makes you happy- but happiness is in your character. If you can live with that, you can live with any blistering reality of Medicine you will encounter which is sure to be worse for the Millennial and two generations after them. Just .. be aware... of Reality. And choose.

I’ve got two kids counting on the expertise of well trained pre-meds and Med students like you all. But their well being depends on your well being.

Challenge the system.
You really can step down from the soap box now. Sounds like a lot of the same flavor of paranoia and conspiracy crap we hear in the political realm these days. If there are issues that need to be fixed, and there are in every industry, do your part to try to fix them. You don't need to tell everyone else how they should feel or that they should "do what makes you happy." People will make up their own mind. Not everyone in this country thinks the end is near.
 
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You really can step down from the soap box now. Sounds like a lot of the same flavor of paranoia and conspiracy crap we hear in the political realm these days. If there are issues that need to be fixed, and there are in every industry, do your part to try to fix them. You don't need to tell everyone else how they should feel or that they should "do what makes you happy." People will make up their own mind. Not everyone in this country thinks the end is near.
They're just voicing their opinion and own views tho :O!

This is a forum (place for discussion). Is it not?
 
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They're just voicing their opinion and own views tho :O!

This is a forum (place for discussion). Is it not?
I am already aware of all of the issues OP stated. They are trying to be helpful I think, a little preachy though haha
 
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Aspiring medical students need to know some things....But, here is the order of what you should choose if you wish to have a successful and stable occupation

#1. Interventional Cardiology. Most people will have heart disease. Most people prefer to eat what they want and get heart attacks, rather than follow a healthy lifestyle. You will have tons of patients, tons of devices and procedures to perform. Hospitals love interventional cardiologists because of billing capture. So, you will be coddled, sucked up to and paid. I know this interventional cardiologist who managed to keep his job even though he grabbed a surgical tech by the neck and threw him up against the wall. He brought the hospital a lot of money. He still does, and he makes a lot of money. Close to $1M a year!

#2. Orthopedic Surgery. Most joint surgeries don't need to be done. The US is one of the highest performers of joint replacements. Cash cow in many ways. Sure, CMS doesn't reimburse much for the surgery portion itself. But there's facility fees (you make a ton of $ on facility fees), Physical Therapy reimbursements, and basic contracts with hospitals. You make over $1M a year!

#3. Spine Surgery.

#4. Vascular Surgery.

Fields NOT to go into.

#1. Anesthesiology. Very political. Stressful in ways you don't expect.
#2. Primary Care. Same as above. This includes Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Family Practice. CRNAs make more than either of these specialties. They make as much as Anesthesiologists in many places. CMS reimburses NPs and Physicians the same.

It will be okay in about 20+ years, but the next 20 years, Medicare expenses are going to go up (Boomers) and to maintain Corporate profit (egregious profit), they will cut you down to pieces. So think this through.

No faculty member in Medical School will tell you these things, because they want you to have an open mind. Which you should.

This would have been informative if it was written in the 2001. It's also filled with unproven surmisations.
 
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