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Medical practice in Europe

Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by swing, Aug 18, 2002.

  1. swing

    swing Member
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    Does anyone nkow where I might find info regarding medical practice in Europe (salaries, hours, licensure requirements, citizenship issues, etc.)?

    I am particularly interested in the U.K. and Switzerland. I am currently a U.S. med student/citizen, but cannot support the direction this administration seems hell-bent on taking the country. Will all this change in a few years? Perhaps, but in the meantime, I'd like to gather info regarding alternatives to U.S. practice.

    My sincere thanks to all!
     
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  3. mies

    mies Member
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    I don't know much about medical practice in Europe (in fact: nothing at all except for Belgian doctors practicing in Belgium ;) ), but you might be interested in this book. I haven't read it yet, so I can't tell you whether I found it useful, but I stumbled upon it one day and I think I'll read it when I'm nearing the end of my studies (3 years down, 4 to go....).

    Good luck!
     
  4. swing

    swing Member
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    Thank you - I would be interested in the book you mention, can you give me the title?
     
  5. mies

    mies Member
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    Just click on "this" in my previous post, or HERE .

    If you do a Google search for the title "Medicine and Medical Education in Europe" you can come up with many links for the book. I found THIS site to be particularly interesting, as it gives reviews, a synopsis, table of contents and a sample chapter on Ireland.
     
  6. none

    none 1K Member
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    What direction in medicine are you so vehemently opposed to?
     
  7. swing

    swing Member
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    It's not any direction in medicine, it's the proposed war with Iraq, erosion of civil liberties as the Bush administration tries to "protect" us all (as if that can realistically be done), and all this talk about "being at war," which, in fact, we are not.
    And please, don't waste time turning this into a policy/patriotism debate. I'm only interested in info on practicing outside the U.S.
     
  8. swing

    swing Member
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    Thank You Mies - this is percisely what I am looking for! I read the reviews and excerpts, now i need to get this book and read it through.
    Again my thanks for your help!
     
  9. none

    none 1K Member
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    It is, of course, amazingly difficult to not comment on your beliefs and I am deeply disturbed that you do not wish to examine all of the issues surrounding such a major decision in your life. I will attempt to control myself and only say that you should study carefully the laws of European countries. You may find that some never had the civil liberties that are currently being eroded in the U.S. Moving to a new country involves a whole lot more than your career. I would even go so far as to say that your career should be a minor concern in comparison.
     
  10. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    I will move this thread to the international forum. You might get useful answers to your original questions. I'm not sure that would be the wisest option, but do whatever your heart tells you.
     
  11. BellKicker

    BellKicker Twisted Miler
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    An even bigger concern is the language!! I know they speak 4 languages in Switzerland but English isn't one of them. That in itself could set you back quite a few years. Great Britain/Ireland? Ooch, aye! The glottal stop will be a mess but I guess you could get by;)

    Man, we could have this whole discussion on comparative freedom. I don't have a stance personally. I tell Scandinavians that the US is "more free" and I tell Americans just the opposite. Go figure.

    Hey, I have a quiz (for Americans only)........ What are the four languages in Switzerland??
     
  12. none

    none 1K Member
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    German, French, Italian and Romansch

    Of course I had to look it up. Anyone who knew that off-hand, probably wasn't American.
     
  13. Ilovetocut

    Ilovetocut Junior Member
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    French, German, Italian, Romansch... Knew that offhand and am American (well, I grew up there so it helps;)

    Just want to point out that the English-speaking community in Switzerland, particularly Geneva is quite huge and that English has become the unofficial fifth language (thanks to UN and co). It's an amazing place to live and especially to raise children.

    My parents moved there 30 years ago and say that you couldn't pay them to live anywhere else. A lot of English/Americans say the same. Most learn the language of their region quite easily but don't feel lost because they have a community (church, school, associations) around them that speaks English.

    Switzerland does not have the conveniances of American living (e.g stores close at 6:45 pm) but it's a clean, friendly, efficient, international, civilized, OPEN-MINDED place albeit not as exciting as New York or Paris, but not as boring as some places I've visited in the States.

    AND we have amazing public transport...definitely worth a visit...

    However I do understand that some prefer the U.S. For some people, the US is home and nothing can take that away from them.
     
  14. Ilovetocut

    Ilovetocut Junior Member
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    And on a side note, on the question about freedom,

    It honestly depends on what you are used to:

    e.g when I went to college in the States, I was baffled at the fact that I couldn't use wine while cooking in my dorm kitchen unless I wished to be written up. I mean, hell, that was cooking wine,
    ps: I have class.
    -couldn't go out to a club/bar without being carded
    -was criticized by my classmates for enjoying fine foods (which I view as common in my country)
    -couldn't voice my opinions without getting some pro-american patriotic bullcrap talk from my peers
    -living in fear of a lawsuit
    -automatic voice systems
    -uhm, sex talk was taboo unless I wished to be classified as a slut

    HOWEVER in Europe there are also many negative points:
    -e.g France, any transaction (bank, post, bills) demands a useless amount of paperwork
    -stores close at the most inconveniant times
    -free speech isn't as free as in the US (e.g no KKK rallies in the streets---ok that was a pro-Europe comment...ignore)
    -Restricted parking
    -Swiss Germans :laugh:
    -in France you're paid peanuts as a GP, in Switzerland, no thanks to a stupid law there's a numerus clausus on how many doctors may open private practices)

    So you see, each have their advantages and disadvantages...
     
  15. BellKicker

    BellKicker Twisted Miler
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    Ilovetocut, I agree.

    My additions:

    The American dream is still American. The freedom to do with your life what you want, professionally, is unparralleled anywhere, I think. A person can change careers in the US a lot easier than here. Store hours, working hours are more free, all those little rules that the allmighty unions refuse to change here.

    I think we probably have more freedom when it comes to the general mindset. It's all the little things like cooking wine and lying topless on the beach. There is no doubt our freedom of speech is more liberal than in the US. But I'm in Scandinavia. France and Switzerland are probably more conservative.

    Credits to None for looking up the languages! :)
     
  16. Imhotep

    Imhotep Attending
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    german, italian, french.....didnt know about romansch....is it like Romany? or just romance language....hehe didnt need to look the first three up, but then again, I wasnt born in the US :), although its my home now.
     
  17. Laramisa

    Laramisa New Member

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    Romansch is related to latin & spoken by about 30,000 people in Eastern Switzerland.
     
  18. Carmen1981

    Carmen1981 New Member

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    This one is for Mies.

    I just stumbled upon this forum *par hazard*, and I was very excited to find someone from Belgium because I have so many questions about praticing medecine there.

    So right now, I am pre-med student in my senior year, taking a year off after graduation (to work, do some clinical research hopefully). I plan to go to med school here in the states (do not know where yet), but want to do my pediatrics residency in Belgium.

    I know i'm thinking about it too early, but i just wanted to know if you can give me some information on the way about going to do that i.e. what schools/hospitals, selection, international application pool for medical residency in belgium, how long is pediatrics residency there (here it is 3 years, after 4years of med school).

    Thanks soooo much!

    :)
     
  19. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member
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    In Italy you have to register with the county and the police when you move to a new location. So, actually, the government is supposed to know where everyone lives...
    Many countries have had ID cards for everybody for years...

    Unemployment in Europe is very high. People who have a job they hate keep it anyways because there aren't that many alternatives.

    I don't know about other European countries but in Italy the medical establishment is very authocratic and you will be working for some big wig "professore" (attending) for years after residency. Opening a private practice is not that easy either, as you compete with the big wigs (who are the docs of the people who can afford them) and socialized medicine with his maddening bureaucracy (can you say "I can schedule for a CT to stage your lung cancer in hmmmm, let me see, say six months") and low pay.

    I guess some people still believe that the grass on the other side of the fence is greener, but to me grass is grass...
     
  20. giselle

    giselle Junior Member

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    In France, if you have studied in the USA, you have to pass an entrance exam called "P1" (first year of medical studies) : only 15% of the students are authorized to go on studying medicine.

    Then you have to pass another competition called "internat" : it allows to do residency.

    When you have done your residency again, you can work either at the hospital or in your own practice.

    In France, health-cares are partially paid by a national social security. That's why the cost of the consultations is fixed.

    On the one hand, we earn less money in France than in the USA, but on the other hand, I think we have more time for our patients, and we can establish a better relationship with them.
    And at the hospital, we cure everybody, even if they have no money. :)

    But of course we lack money to buy medical equipments (scanners, MRI,...).

    About medical hierarchy in France : of course it exists , but many of the heads of the wards are retiring now, and things are changing... at least let's hope so! ;)

    giselle

    PS : sorry for the mistakes, I don't speak English well...:(
     
  21. Carmen1981

    Carmen1981 New Member

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    Ceci est pour Giselle,

    donc est-ce que tu sais combien de temps durent les etudes de medecine (pediatrie) tenant compte que j'ai deja fait 4 annees d'etudes ici?

    La duree de l'internat? je sais que ca depends de la specialisation choisie, n'est-ce pas?

    Ceci dit, l'exam 'p1' est un exam d'entree en etudes de medecine ou juste un exam pour ceux qui veulent continuer leurs etudes en medecine si ils en ont deja fait en etranger?

    merci :)

    ps. ne t'en fait pas pour les fautes, moi j'en fais toujours plein, et en plus dans les deux langues! :)
     
  22. giselle

    giselle Junior Member

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    I answer in English (without exercise I won't progress ;))

    If you want to be a pediatrician, you will have to :
    - pass the "P1" : that's the first year of medical studies in France, for example, in my medical school, the subjects we study are : physics, chemistry, cell biology, biology of reproduction, embryology, biochemistry, biophysics, "histology" (I think you say micro anatomy for that), ethics, public health...
    - then you have to pass many exams (but without making again the five years before residency)
    - then you have 4 years residency = "internat" (pediatry)
    It makes 1+4 = 5 years.


    There is another solution : you don't pass the "P1" again, but you will only be allowed to practice at the hospital as a "FFI" - it means "faisant fonction d'interne". But that's not au good solution, because you earn only little money. In fact, people usually begin as a FFI for a few months in order to improve their French, then they pass the "P1"...

    You have more information on the website of my medical school :
    http://www.cochin.univ-paris5.fr/enseignement/Scolarit%E9/Inscriptions/etuet.htm

    (In France our studies are very different from yours : we begin usually at 18 with the " concours de la PCEM1 (=P1)", then we have 5 years : 2 years of basis, then 3 years at the hospital (it's called "externat"). After we pass a competition called "concours de l''internat" and we become "internes" = residents.)

    In France we have some great hospitals specialized in pediatry , I mean especially Necker-Enfants-Malades, where the first gene therapy was successfully accomplished.

    I hope my explanations were intelligible... :confused:

    giselle
     
  23. Carmen1981

    Carmen1981 New Member

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    Giselle,

    Thanks soooo much for the information. Yes, they were very intelligible :)

    I'll try and go to the site you suggested.

    Thanks again! :) Hope everything is going well for you. :)
     
  24. mies

    mies Member
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    If you're thinking about doing your residency in Belgium, you probably already know about the incredible bureaucracy that accompanies every move in this country :D

    1. With a non-EU degree there are two possibilities:
    - your degree isn't equivalent to an EU degree, so you aren't allowed to practice in Belgium. Of course, you could be accepted by one of the medical schools to train as a resident, but the residency isn't "official". In this case you would be allowed to stay only 1 or 2 years in Belgium, you wouldn't even be able to complete the residency.
    - your degree is equivalent to an EU degree, this is of course a better option as it would allow you to do your residency without any further problems. You would think that an American degree is equivalent, but the administration looks at every case individually. There is no published list of countries or universities that are considered equivalent, but they probably have one lying on their desk. Maybe you should contact them now, the address for the flemish universities is:

    Bestuur Universitair Onderwijs - t.a.v. Mevr. Ir?ne POCKET
    Koning Albert II laan 15
    B-1210 Brussels
    Belgium

    tel: +32 2 5539818
    e-mail: [email protected]

    The administration of the walloon universities:

    Mr. Yves ROGGEMAN
    Avenue Louise 65 / 9
    B-1050 Brussels
    Belgium

    tel: +32 2 5337111
    e-mail: [email protected]


    2. There is no such thing as ERAS in Belgium, you apply to the programs right away. They are always university-based, but you can spend some of the training at community hospitals or abroad. You will compete with the Belgian students for limited training spots (from 2004 on, the amount of certifications will be drastically reduced, we don't know whether we will be able to practice medicine ourselves! The jury is still out on the exact number, as far as I know it's 600 in 2006 and a bit more for 2007 (maybe as much as 700 spots) Half of those are for family medicine, and then there are quotas for every specialty).
    Anyway, competition for pediatrics is harsh. Programs usually accept students from their own medical schools, and those students have spend half of their final (seventh) year with them (not everywhere, but this is the case in Leuven, where I study). Grades are also very important.
    That doesn't mean you don't stand a chance. They'll simply evaluate your application on other bases I guess (maybe your board scores??? class rank?? research? recommendation from a well-known and befriended professor?? who knows).
    You should also keep an eye on your future goals: do you want to stay and practice in Belgium afterwards or not? (why would they train someone who won't contribute to Belgian healthcare instead of someone who would?) Do you speak and write Dutch or French well enough for interviews and patient interaction? (Dutch for Flanders or French for Wallonia will suffice)

    3. The international application pool is rather small. There are some Dutch applicants in Flanders, and several other nationalities in small numbers.

    4. A residency in pediatrics is 5 years (after 7 years of medical school (right after secondary school)).

    5. Websites for Belgian medical schools which award the degree of medical doctor, with their affiliated hospitals (unfortunately most of the pages are either in Dutch or in French):

    Flanders:
    - Antwerp: Universiteit Antwerpen, Faculteit Geneeskunde with a very informative page about residency selection, and the main university hospital.
    - Brussels: Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Faculteit van de Geneeskunde en Farmacie with their main university hospital.
    - Louvain: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Faculteit Geneeskunde with the main university hospital.
    - Ghent: Rijksuniversiteit Gent, Faculteit Geneeskunde en Gezondheidswetenschappen and the main university hospital.

    Wallonia:
    - Brussels: Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, Facult? de M?decine, there's a link to the affiliated hospitals.
    - Li?ge: Universit? de Li?ge, Facult? de M?decine with the university hospital.
    - Louvain-la-neuve: Universit? Catholique de Louvain, Facult? de M?decine, a link to the affiliated hospitals is on the website.


    Hope that helps!


    P.S.: to avoid any confusion: the word "Dutch" is the name of the language the Flemish speak, but also the adjective and name of the inhabitants of The Netherlands.
    Are you familiar with the federal structure of Belgium?
     
  25. Carmen1981

    Carmen1981 New Member

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    Thank you soo much mies for your reply.

    Yes! it helped a lot. I know i'm thinking about it too early, since I still have to finish my last year of undergraduate studies, and attend med school (here or in Canada), but it is just so that i can keep my options open, ou preparer le terrain en quelque sorte.

    To answer some of your questions:

    Yes, I do speak French fluently; I am originally from Cameroun, West Africa, where French is the official language. So doing interviews, and studying in French won't be a problem at all. So that said, one of my options would be to do my residency in one of the universities dans la Wallonie.

    Also, I intend to stay in Belgium permanently. Actually, I am in a long term relationship with a Belgian; He actually lives in Solieres-Huy, dans la province de Liege. So that is one of the reasons I intend to complete my residency in Belgium.

    Any thing new that comes up on that side of the atlantic concerning med schools, please let me know. I would really appreciate it.

    Merci infiniment.
     
  26. sanford_w/o_son

    sanford_w/o_son locl jnky-gota thred man?
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    bVmp!

    l3T chA05 Re1gN!
     

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