Medical School Affecting My Personality

[BloodySurgeon]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I have noticed doctors become more and more careless in their work; only looking for common signs and symptoms and weighing patients as profit assets instead of sick people. I want to be better than they are and I've told myself endlessly, "I need to be the best." This led me to question the competence of my classmates, teachers, and even doctors. Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

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[BloodySurgeon]

Oh ya, today's my b-day ... imma sleep now...

 

[FizbanZymogen]

I noticed I have gone through a similar change but have since worked hard to change my attitude and impressions. It feels good to be back to my old self. I just hope once med school starts this fall I won't become jaded again (I know I swimming upstream).

happy b-day by the way.....

 

[arsenewenger]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I have noticed doctors become more and more careless in their work; only looking for common signs and symptoms and weighing patients as profit assets instead of sick people. I want to be better than they are and I've told myself endlessly, "I need to be the best." This led me to question the competence of my classmates, teachers, and even doctors. Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

No. premed **** never got into my head.

 

[estairella]

Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots."

Reminds me of this alarmist news article, talking about how there was an academic crisis in America. An example they used was this high school, where "On standardized tests up to 50% of students score below the national mean".

So if you only think half of everyone you meet is an idiot, and assuming your IQ is >100 (pretty reasonable, you can write coherent sentences on an internet forum) you're actually a much nicer person than you think you are, because more than half of everyone you meet should seem idiotic in comparison to you. =P

Seriously though, I wouldn't stress it unless you notice this has been affecting your relationships with friends/family/etc. Most importantly, I doubt this will affect your ability to host a doctor-patient relationship, because it is fundamentally different from a peer-peer relationship (which is where you seem to be "elitist"). Case in point - teachers who are absolute ass****es to their "dumb" students but sweet as pie to fellow teachers (I've yet to see the reverse though..).

Btw, Happy Birthday!

 

[silas2642]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I have noticed doctors become more and more careless in their work; only looking for common signs and symptoms and weighing patients as profit assets instead of sick people. I want to be better than they are and I've told myself endlessly, "I need to be the best." This led me to question the competence of my classmates, teachers, and even doctors. Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

I'd be kind of concerned because you're probably going to be a bigger ass as a physician than you are now. Medicine tends to burn you and the further you go, the more you tend to get burned. Just remember that you're not that smart, that there are tons of people out there who are way smarter than you are, and remember the heart of medicine (it's to help people). If you're having difficulty treating people well, I'd get some practice by treating all your patients/daily encounters as if they were your grandmother/mother/father/sister/brother/friend, etc. because you're going to need this skill in the future to become a good doctor. Remember a good physician is more than knowing the diagnosis and writing out a prescription. Also, if your patients hate your arrogant guts, they're going to sue your pretentious pants off.

 

[Law2Doc]

Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots."

Med school and residency will break you of this because you will likely spend the next 6-7 years constantly feeling like an idiot yourself. You will consider it a small victory when you know the answer because all too frequently, you won't. (On a side note, I'm not sure Dr House is a good avatar for someone actually concerned about being uncompassionate and arrogant ).

 

[Pansit]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I have noticed doctors become more and more careless in their work; only looking for common signs and symptoms and weighing patients as profit assets instead of sick people. I want to be better than they are and I've told myself endlessly, "I need to be the best." This led me to question the competence of my classmates, teachers, and even doctors. Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

First off you need to change that attitude...what do you mean exactly? Is it that they are just clueless about everything or that they are academically challenged? I often take the "I am a very fortunate student approach (my parents raised me to understand the importance of education, placed me in the right environment, provided monetary support...etc)", I dont have this sense of entitlement that I am better than this guy or that guy because I do well in school and have made it to med school. It is simply due to the fact that certain things in my life fell into place the right way to get me to where I am. For a majority of people it doesnt fall that way and it often is not there fault. I think everyone is equal, and some people are fortunate and take advantage of it, while some people were just unlucky and things fell the other way. I doubt I would be in medical school right now if I had to work through all 4 years of undergrad (especially freshman year) or if my parents didnt pay for my princeton review course. Heck, I would not even be here in America if they didnt emigrate when I was born. The people that I do have some resentment towards are the very fortunate people who don't realize how lucky they are and do not take advantage of their situation (party and drink all day, smoke weed, never study...etc). I do admire those who strived a lot more to get to where they are than what I have had to do. Those with families, who work and go to school and still find time to get a 35 on the mcat. Youre in medical school because you are fortunate, those that do not were unfortunate, that does not make you any better than them nor give you the privilege to give judgements.

 

[Tired]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I can't figure out from your post if you are a med student (the title of the thread, the last line) or a premed student (the bolded portion).

If you are a med student: Ignore the holier-than-thou crap folks are posting here about compassion and loving your patients. The feeling you have now is called a defence mechansim; your mind is using it to shield you from the exhaustion, insecurity, and fear that necessarily comes with being a med student. It will pass. Relax.

If you are a premed student: WTF?! Just a head's up, you might want to actually seperate yourself from your peers by getting in before you start thinking about how special you are.

Good luck.

 

[psipsina]

I can't figure out from your post if you are a med student (the title of the thread, the last line) or a premed student (the bolded portion).

If you are a med student: Ignore the holier-than-thou crap folks are posting here about compassion and loving your patients. The feeling you have now is called a defence mechansim; your mind is using it to shield you from the exhaustion, insecurity, and fear that necessarily comes with being a med student. It will pass. Relax.

If you are a premed student: WTF?! Just a head's up, you might want to actually seperate yourself from your peers by getting in before you start thinking about how special you are.

Good luck.

His profile says he's a premed. If you feel this way during premed you need to re-evaluate how much you're internalizing this process. I didn't like many of my fellow premeds, mostly because they were arogant and competitive and generally uninteresting outside of their premedness. Premed is tougher than some other UG paths but in the grand scheme of life its not that bad. It feels crappy to not know where you're going in life, but this whole kill or be killed attitude that premeds have is silly. The only competition you have is yourself, push yourself as hard as you can and then you don't have to worry about how everyone else is doing. If your going full throttle you can't ask anything more of yourself so there's nothing more to worry about.

 

[baylormed]

First off you need to change that attitude...what do you mean exactly? Is it that they are just clueless about everything or that they are academically challenged? I often take the "I am a very fortunate student approach (my parents raised me to understand the importance of education, placed me in the right environment, provided monetary support...etc)", I dont have this sense of entitlement that I am better than this guy or that guy because I do well in school and have made it to med school. It is simply due to the fact that certain things in my life fell into place the right way to get me to where I am. For a majority of people it doesnt fall that way and it often is not there fault. I think everyone is equal, and some people are fortunate and take advantage of it, while some people were just unlucky and things fell the other way. I doubt I would be in medical school right now if I had to work through all 4 years of undergrad (especially freshman year) or if my parents didnt pay for my princeton review course. Heck, I would not even be here in America if they didnt emigrate when I was born. The people that I do have some resentment towards are the very fortunate people who don't realize how lucky they are and do not take advantage of their situation (party and drink all day, smoke weed, never study...etc). I do admire those who strived a lot more to get to where they are than what I have had to do. Those with families, who work and go to school and still find time to get a 35 on the mcat. Youre in medical school because you are fortunate, those that do not were unfortunate, that does not make you any better than them nor give you the privilege to give judgements.

I agree. I usually have impatience only when the other person has every opportunity available and they choose not to take advantage of them, which in the US, I'm afraid this covers the majority of the population.

Before I became a PR of the US, I used to get very angry at the fact that I really, really wanted the opportunity to be here and make something of myself, whereas many people I knew took their citizenship for granted.

Now, I am grateful that I was approved as a PR, but I also know I'm lucky because my father was a born-US citizen, so the application approval was pretty much a given for me and the rest of my family. I know that not everyone has the opportunity.

The way I see it, you can do anything in the US. If you don't have money to study, you can always get financial aid and loans. You can start at a community college, you can take 10 years to finish a degree if needed (in other countries you cannot do this). Regardless of the situation, you can always find a job (even if it means flipping burgers at McDonald's).

So yeah, maybe it is because I am looking at it from the perspective of someone who grew up outside the US, but I am impatient when people from here tell me they don't go to college because they can't afford it.

 

[45408]

Med school and residency will break you of this because you will likely spend the next 6-7 years constantly feeling like an idiot yourself. You will consider it a small victory when you know the answer because all too frequently, you won't. (On a side note, I'm not sure Dr House is a good avatar for someone actually concerned about being uncompassionate and arrogant ).

Word to both sentiments. House? Seriously, dude.

You will most definitely get a chance to get your butt kicked in med school, because there will be people who seem to have no other goals or interests in life beyond getting a 100 on the next exam. I happen to have other interests (my wife is hot), so those people get their 100, and I'll have to settle with less. Your time will come.

 

[psipsina]

So yeah, maybe it is because I am looking at it from the perspective of someone who grew up outside the US, but I am impatient when people from here tell me they don't go to college because they can't afford it.

I think alot of people are really never told this until its too late. I've encountered many people who had no idea what financial aid was out there to be had and who thought they had no hope of going to college.

If you don't come from a family who is college oriented (having gone themselves or who are very focused on you getting to go) and you aren't lucky enough to live in a good public school district, you can go thru your life never thinking that college was ever a possiblity for you and therefore not doing any of the preparation necessary to get there.

I personally think this is one of the epic failures of the american public school system, there are probably alot of really great minds out there who just weren't groomed properly for the collegiate path and never considered it as a possibility for them.

 

[45408]

I dont have this sense of entitlement that I am better than this guy or that guy because I do well in school and have made it to med school. It is simply due to the fact that certain things in my life fell into place the right way to get me to where I am. For a majority of people it doesnt fall that way and it often is not there fault. I think everyone is equal, and some people are fortunate and take advantage of it, while some people were just unlucky and things fell the other way. I doubt I would be in medical school right now if I had to work through all 4 years of undergrad (especially freshman year) or if my parents didnt pay for my princeton review course.

I know quite a few people (including myself) who footed the entire bill for undergrad, as well as application costs, the Kaplan course, and now med school. Fortunately, I snagged a nurse who is now paying my living expenses, but otherwise, I'd be paying for those too. I know some people who got a lot of money from their parents - one guy got everything: tuition, rent, a LOT of beer money - just so that they wouldn't have to work in undergrad.

 

[aspirationMD]

All this reminds me of the first day of principles of bio lab in fall term. There we all were, standing outside the lab room waiting to go inside. Someone says "what are you majoring in?" and someone else replies "Premed", then someone else chimes in "I'm premed too" then a few more say the same. I sit back silently while these students go back and forth about "premed" stuff. I was slightly disgusted by the arrogance in the hallway, as if everyone else in the class who were non premeds didn't have a place there. It's like some of us get into our own little premed worlds, and everyone else becomes an unimportant outcast.

I suggest getting of the high horse before it bucks your a** right off!

IMO, I think the way you feel right now, will effect the relationship you build with patients (if any at all) and will effect your philosophy of medicine in the long run, having a jaded attitude about one things tends to run into other aspects of life as well. Good luck shaking these feelings though, and you are right the first step is acknowledging the problem, so you're on the right track

 

[aspirationMD]

I think alot of people are really never told this until its too late. I've encountered many people who had no idea what financial aid was out there to be had and who thought they had no hope of going to college.

If you don't come from a family who is college oriented (having gone themselves or who are very focused on you getting to go) and you aren't lucky enough to live in a good public school district, you can go thru your life never thinking that college was ever a possiblity for you and therefore not doing any of the preparation necessary to get there.

I personally think this is one of the epic failures of the american public school system, there are probably alot of really great minds out there who just weren't groomed properly for the collegiate path and never considered it as a possibility for them.

Which is why I am a 24 year old freshman. I never thought going to a university was possible, being a doctor (although it's been my life's dream) seemed part of another life time. I'm a first generation college student, I swear, by all means, I'm going to break that chain!

 

[beauregard]

All this reminds me of the first day of principles of bio lab in fall term. There we all were, standing outside the lab room waiting to go inside. Someone says "what are you majoring in?" and someone else replies "Premed", then someone else chimes in "I'm premed too" then a few more say the same. I sit back silently while these students go back and forth about "premed" stuff. I was slightly disgusted by the arrogance in the hallway, as if everyone else in the class who were non premeds didn't have a place there. It's like some of us get into our own little premed worlds, and everyone else becomes an unimportant outcast.

This is precisely why I NEVER tell anyone that I want to go to medical school.

I despise pretentiousness and it seems to be an epidemic among pre-meds at my school.

 

[psipsina]

Which is why I am a 24 year old freshman. I never thought going to a university was possible, being a doctor (although it's been my life's dream) seemed part of another life time. I'm a first generation college student, I swear, by all means, I'm going to break that chain!

Thats awesome Good
I'm so impressed with people who follow their dreams even when life has put alot of speedbumps and detours along their path. It takes alot of courage.

 

[smq123]

Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Well, the first step would be to stop being an insensitive, arrogant pre-med student.

The next step would be to actually get in to medical school. This involves getting a halfway decent GPA and a good MCAT score.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

No. If the soul-sucking labor known as the "admissions process" doesn't take some of your ego out of you, then your first anatomy exam grade will. And just when your ego starts to rear its ugly head again, it's time to start rotations, and one of your attendings will swat your ego right back down into its hole.

Good luck, because you've got a very long road ahead of you.

 

[BloodySurgeon]

Thank you all, you guys really whipped my perspective into shape. Hearing all these comments made me realize how fortunate I really am. I swear im like the luckiest man on earth. Sometimes I just need a big smack in the head to knock me off the high horse . I feel better now.

I agree with an earlier comment, I don't know how people work full-time and do school. My grades would have suffered severly if I took some of my harder semesters with a full-time job. Also, I got some great friends who called me up this morning just to say, "Happy Birthday." Times like these I just wanna do something charitable.

As the earth finally finished rotating around the sun on this particular day, I became a better man. Thank you.

 

[8744]

I've noticed I became more bitter and arrogant to others throughout the years. I'm usually very sincere and would NEVER do anything to harmful anyone intentionally, but sometimes I just seem plain cold to some people. Sometimes I act as if I am always right and become less patient when studying with others. These are not good qualities of a doctor, I KNOW, but I guess acknowledging it would be the first step to recovery. I use to never be like this and I'm just thinking its because of our competitive nature as a pre-med student.

I have noticed doctors become more and more careless in their work; only looking for common signs and symptoms and weighing patients as profit assets instead of sick people. I want to be better than they are and I've told myself endlessly, "I need to be the best." This led me to question the competence of my classmates, teachers, and even doctors. Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots." Everyone has flaws and I DO believe that you can learn from anyone. Maybe I'm not making any sense because im drunk out of my mind, or maybe im intolerant to dumb people, I dont know; but I do know this... I don't want to be an insensitive, arrogant doctor.

Does anyone else find pre-med/med school change them like this?

You are absolutely wrong about this. If anything, you become a lot more meticulous the more training you have. Your problem is that you don't understand that you also learn to automatically separate the wheat from the chaff and why I can do an H & P, write orders, and have the patient moving towards the purpose and outcome of his stay while the medical student is still bogged down in questions like, "Tell me about that itchy rash you had back in 1957 when you were in third grade" or "Tell me about your personal relationships, listing them in order, and any contagious disease you may have been exposed to since the Korean War."

And as for profit, well, you don't bill by the hour in medicine. A visit for GERD is going to pay the same whether you spend 15 minutes in a polite, efficient, and directed visit or two hours letting the patient ramble, and they will ramble if you let them, on every topic they feel like bringing up. It is the height of selfishness, and a symptom of a society that doesn't know how their medical care is provided and payed for, for a patient to believe they have the right to monopolize the doctor's time and to get offended if he can't spend ten minutes chatting before he gets to the purpose of the visit.

Since you are a medical student and don't count, you have the luxury of being self-righteous about these kinds of things.

 

[8744]

I think alot of people are really never told this until its too late. I've encountered many people who had no idea what financial aid was out there to be had and who thought they had no hope of going to college.

If you don't come from a family who is college oriented (having gone themselves or who are very focused on you getting to go) and you aren't lucky enough to live in a good public school district, you can go thru your life never thinking that college was ever a possiblity for you and therefore not doing any of the preparation necessary to get there.

I personally think this is one of the epic failures of the american public school system, there are probably alot of really great minds out there who just weren't groomed properly for the collegiate path and never considered it as a possibility for them.

Higher education is completely over-rated and a waste of money for most people except that a college degree, any degree in anything, is regarded as necessary for most white-collar jobs.

Anybody can get into some college or university somewhere. They are all now nothing but diploma mills whose primary purpose is to keep the warm, federally funded bodies flowing.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

This is precisely why I NEVER tell anyone that I want to go to medical school.

I despise pretentiousness and it seems to be an epidemic among pre-meds at my school.

In undergrad, I also avoided telling people I was premed. At least where I went to school, this admission seemed tantamount to saying, "I'm an arrogant little p*ick only concerned about grades, I don't care at all about the material as long as I get an A, I'm more gifted than any 'commoners' like mere professors, I deserve to be catered to, I'll whine about any perceived 'unfairness', unfairness being defined as any situation that doesn't happen to break my way."

Even when I was applying, and I was an extremely competitive applicant with a pretty decent shot at getting in, I would use the phrase, "IF I'm fortunate enough to be accepted, I'll be enrolling in med school," when people asked. Compare this to another premed of my acquaintances who offered, unsolicited, that it was going to be "so difficult to choose between Harvard and Hopkins" - that guy didn't even end up interviewing either place.

Unfortunately, yet predictably, some of these people do end up getting into med school. They are just as obnoxious to be around in that environment. Generally they are not well-liked by classmates, instructors, attendings, residents, nurses, or anyone else that has to deal with them.

Really, the stereotypic premed just annoys the hell out of pretty much everyone that has to deal with them. Please, think about how you come across and DON'T be that guy.

 

[BloodySurgeon]

You are absolutely wrong about this. If anything, you become a lot more meticulous the more training you have. Your problem is that you don't understand that you also learn to automatically separate the wheat from the chaff and why I can do an H & P, write orders, and have the patient moving towards the purpose and outcome of his stay while the medical student is still bogged down in questions like, "Tell me about that itchy rash you had back in 1957 when you were in third grade" or "Tell me about your personal relationships, listing them in order, and any contagious disease you may have been exposed to since the Korean War."

And as for profit, well, you don't bill by the hour in medicine. A visit for GERD is going to pay the same whether you spend 15 minutes in a polite, efficient, and directed visit or two hours letting the patient ramble, and they will ramble if you let them, on every topic they feel like bringing up. It is the height of selfishness, and a symptom of a society that doesn't know how their medical care is provided and payed for, for a patient to believe they have the right to monopolize the doctor's time and to get offended if he can't spend ten minutes chatting before he gets to the purpose of the visit.

Since you are a medical student and don't count, you have the luxury of being self-righteous about these kinds of things.

I could understand why you are so defensive, Panda Bear, especially since these statements are brought up more than just once. I could ramble on about how speed is more/less important than quality in each field, talk about how malpractice changed the mentality of physicians on ethical/moral issues or why a few rotton apples are generalized for the medical profession... but on this day, I'd like to sit back, drink a brew, and enjoy this day of all days. Can you understand that? Well, if you do-- cheers!

 

[8744]

I could understand why you are so defensive, Panda Bear, especially since these statements are brought up more than just once. I could ramble on about how speed is more/less important than quality in each field, talk about how malpractice changed the mentality of physicians on ethical/moral issues or why a few rotton apples are generalized for the medical profession... but on this day, I'd like to sit back, drink a brew, and enjoy this day of all days. Can you understand that? Well, if you do-- cheers!

I am not defensive. You said that doctors become more careless the longer they spend in the field and I pointed out that what you regard as carelessness is just the ability to know instinctively what is wheat and what is chaff.

And we are not meticulous because of fear of being sued, we're meticulous because that's our responsibility. Malpractice fears just lead to over-documentation and defensive medicine.

 

[45408]

This is precisely why I NEVER tell anyone that I want to go to medical school.

I despise pretentiousness and it seems to be an epidemic among pre-meds at my school.

See, now you're just being pretentious about not being pretentious. If/When you're in med school, will you keep that a secret too?

If someone asked me what I was majoring in (biology), the next question 95% of the time was, "Oh, what are you going to do with that?" I didn't go around bragging about what I planned to do, but if people asked, I didn't have a problem telling them.

 

[QuakerPreMed]

Higher education is completely over-rated and a waste of money for most people except that a college degree, any degree in anything, is regarded as necessary for most white-collar jobs.

Yes, but my higher education in the liberal arts at least gave me the ability to spot the incorrect "it's" in your sig.

Oh, it got me into medical school too.

Or are you assuming that "most people" aren't members of SDN?

 

[45408]

Yes, but my higher education in the liberal arts at least gave me the ability to spot the incorrect "it's" in your sig.

Oh, it got me into medical school too.

Or are you assuming that "most people" aren't members of SDN?

To be quite honest, I was able to make that distinction in about the 7th grade. I could have saved you a few pennies.


I think Panda may be suggesting that an undergraduate degree should not be required for medical school, but I could be wrong.

 

[8744]

Yes, but my higher education in the liberal arts at least gave me the ability to spot the incorrect "it's" in your sig.

Oh, it got me into medical school too.

Or are you assuming that "most people" aren't members of SDN?

The comment was that many people believe that a life without college is wasted but the reality is that most people waste their time in college. You know it, I know it, and your university knows it but doesn't care as it is in their financial interest to keep the sheep tramping in and out where they can be shorn of their government provided financial aid fleeces.

It should be a scandal.

And I'm not talking about the SDN crowd who have a good purpose and a use for college.

 

[8744]

To be quite honest, I was able to make that distinction in about the 7th grade. I could have saved you a few pennies.


I think Panda may be suggesting that an undergraduate degree should not be required for medical school, but I could be wrong.

I think an undergraduate degree should be required. I know a lot of residents from countries where they essentially go straight from high school to medical school and they are tremendously uneducated. I may be a cynic when it comes to higher education but most American pre-meds take rigorous degrees and do exceptionally well.

 

[QuakerPreMed]

And I'm not talking about the SDN crowd who have a good purpose and a use for college.

It does frighten me that some people advocate for no undergrad for physicians, so thanks for saying we have good use for it!! I wouldn't want my doctor even as one-dimensional as what lots of MD programs are currently churning out...I hope I don't become a doctor like that.

I don't think my college actually makes a profit these days, so perhaps we should be admitting MORE people who don't really need/are capable of obtaining a good degree

 

[baylormed]

It does frighten me that some people advocate for no undergrad for physicians, so thanks for saying we have good use for it!! I wouldn't want my doctor even as one-dimensional as what lots of MD programs are currently churning out...I hope I don't become a doctor like that.

I don't think my college actually makes a profit these days, so perhaps we should be admitting MORE people who don't really need/are capable of obtaining a good degree

Other countries do it, and they have good doctors, too. They do, however, have a higher turnover rate (more people find out they don't like it or they can't cut it), and the medical school program is usually longer than 4 years.

In the one I know about, it's 5 years + 1 year of internship, after which you get your diploma.

 

[8744]

It does frighten me that some people advocate for no undergrad for physicians, so thanks for saying we have good use for it!! I wouldn't want my doctor even as one-dimensional as what lots of MD programs are currently churning out...I hope I don't become a doctor like that.

I don't think my college actually makes a profit these days, so perhaps we should be admitting MORE people who don't really need/are capable of obtaining a good degree

Whoa. Colleges are money making machines. Now it is true that they will cry poverty and attempt to mobilize their students to whine to the legislature for more money but the real problem is that a typical state or private university is a bureaucratic monster that can always find one useless thing or another on which to waste money. The cost of attendance increases at, what, three times the rate of inflation? Has the quality of the teaching increased fifteen-fold in the last thirty years which is how much tuition has increased?

Of course not. The cost increases because the government will lend students the money. If there was no financial aid the cost to attend most colleges would go down like a five franc French hooker on German soldier appreciation night.

What does it cost to attend Dartmouth per year (where my sister is the Director of Admission by the way)? Close to fifty thousand bucks if you live in the dorms. Do you get five times the education you get at my Alma Mater which costs a fifth as much for out of state tuition (that is, not subsidized by the State)?

Of course not. You're paying for a brand which costs the school nothing but for which they charge a premium.

 

[8744]

Other countries do it, and they have good doctors, too. They do, however, have a higher turnover rate (more people find out they don't like it or they can't cut it), and the medical school program is usually longer than 4 years.

In the one I know about, it's 5 years + 1 year of internship, after which you get your diploma.

We tend to get the cream of the crop here from other countries. I'm not saying their doctors aren't good but ours are better.

 

[baylormed]

We tend to get the cream of the crop here from other countries. I'm not saying their doctors aren't good but ours are better.

And I believe that has more to do with research, financial resources and better facilities, than with actual brains.

 

[QuakerPreMed]

What does it cost to attend Dartmouth per year (where my sister is the Director of Admission by the way)? Close to fifty thousand bucks if you live in the dorms. Do you get five times the education you get at my Alma Mater which costs a fifth as much for out of state tuition (that is, not subsidized by the State)?

Of course not. You're paying for a brand which costs the school nothing but for which they charge a premium.

Regardless of in-state vs out-of-state, your state school (and Dartmouth for that matter) probably has an endowment twenty times that of my small liberal arts school. We actually need tuition dollars to pay for things like electricity. I've seen the budget committee raw data and we're not whining that we're poor, we are poor.

That being said, your point does stand for an enormous amount of schools. For example, why the heck does HMS charge for medical school when their endowment is in the billions?

 

[Auron]

Regardless of in-state vs out-of-state, your state school (and Dartmouth for that matter) probably has an endowment twenty times that of my small liberal arts school. We actually need tuition dollars to pay for things like electricity. I've seen the budget committee raw data and we're not whining that we're poor, we are poor.

That being said, your point does stand for an enormous amount of schools. For example, why the heck does HMS charge for medical school when their endowment is in the billions?

because apparently you can never have too much money.

 

[45408]

That being said, your point does stand for an enormous amount of schools. For example, why the heck does HMS charge for medical school when their endowment is in the billions?

The tuition paid by students at most medical schools is a pretty small part of the whole pie. At my school, I think it's less than 10% of the school's income. Why it increases annually by thousands of dollars, I don't know.

 

[pennybridge]

Silently, I find half of everyone I meet as "idiots."

trust me, the number's actually quite a bit higher.

 

[beauregard]

See, now you're just being pretentious about not being pretentious. If/When you're in med school, will you keep that a secret too?

If someone asked me what I was majoring in (biology), the next question 95% of the time was, "Oh, what are you going to do with that?" I didn't go around bragging about what I planned to do, but if people asked, I didn't have a problem telling them.

When I say never, I mean like in a first day of class introduction thing where people are all "I'm pre-med" like it makes them gods.

Like you, when people ask me my major and I respond with some semblance of my 'I have a humanities degree but I'm doing a post-bac in biology' rambling. If people ask me what I want to do with that I'm honest and tell them that I'd like to go to medical school if I could get in, but if not I may go to PA school or a grad program in biology as backups. I absolutely have no problem with that. It's just the people at my school, specifically young undergrads (freshman, sophomores) who say they are going to go to medical school (almost always at Vanderbilt specifically) when they haven't even had a chemistry class yet.

Telling people when they ask is much different than touting a pre-med label like it's something to gloat about.