medical school and the military. help!

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

Nope, you repay your 4 obligated years after residency. The years in medical school and residency do not count. If he goes ROTC and get accepted into medical school, they will force him to take the HPSP, which is another 4-5 years of obligated service after residency.

I sat down with an AMEDD recruiter six months ago and my understanding of obligated time was different than what you are saying. I don't think it matters if you take the HSPS or not in terms of years owed. If you pay your own way you still owe time for the school stipend that you get regardless of whether you take the scholarship or not. You have to submit a board packet for the HPSP and there are not enough to go around each year, so I don't think they "force" anyone to take it. I currently work for ROTC and I'm not in love with the Cadre we currently have and the type of leadership we teach, but I honestly believe that green-to-gold is one of the most expeditious ways available to close out a degree while on active duty.

The best thing for him to do is to contact an AMEDD recruiter himself and get his own brief by a SME that explain the ins and outs directly to him. The military is a huge organization that doesn't care about the individual for sure, but I don't agree with serving only as a means to an ends. If you are looking at HSPS and service like a balance sheet or a check register and tallying years of service against lost earnings then the military probably isn't the right place to kick start a medical career.

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[68PGunner]

I sat down with an AMEDD recruiter six months ago and my understanding of obligated time was different than what you are saying. I don't think it matters if you take the HSPS or not in terms of years owed. If you pay your own way you still owe time for the school stipend that you get regardless of whether you take the scholarship or not. You have to submit a board packet for the HPSP and there are not enough to go around each year, so I don't think they "force" anyone to take it. I currently work for ROTC and I'm not in love with the Cadre we currently have and the type of leadership we teach, but I honestly believe that green-to-gold is one of the most expeditious ways available to close out a degree while on active duty.

The best thing for him to do is to contact an AMEDD recruiter himself and get his own brief by a SME that explain the ins and outs directly to him. The military is a huge organization that doesn't care about the individual for sure, but I don't agree with serving only as a means to an ends. If you are looking at HSPS and service like a balance sheet or a check register and tallying years of service against lost earnings then the military probably isn't the right place to kick start a medical career.

Well, he is wrong. Read the regs. I looked through the regs myself bc I was considering all pathways when I was AD. They will force you to take the HPSP in order to grant you the educational delay. It is this simple:

1) You own 4 years of obligated AD for taking the ROTC Green to Gold package
2) You own another 4-5 years of obligated AD for taking the HPSP

You will pay back those years after residency. Medical school is IRR and doesn't count toward the obligated service years. Residency years are neutral.

 

[68PGunner]

I sat down with an AMEDD recruiter six months ago and my understanding of obligated time was different than what you are saying. I don't think it matters if you take the HSPS or not in terms of years owed. If you pay your own way you still owe time for the school stipend that you get regardless of whether you take the scholarship or not. You have to submit a board packet for the HPSP and there are not enough to go around each year, so I don't think they "force" anyone to take it. I currently work for ROTC and I'm not in love with the Cadre we currently have and the type of leadership we teach, but I honestly believe that green-to-gold is one of the most expeditious ways available to close out a degree while on active duty.

The best thing for him to do is to contact an AMEDD recruiter himself and get his own brief by a SME that explain the ins and outs directly to him. The military is a huge organization that doesn't care about the individual for sure, but I don't agree with serving only as a means to an ends. If you are looking at HSPS and service like a balance sheet or a check register and tallying years of service against lost earnings then the military probably isn't the right place to kick start a medical career.

Finally, HPSP for dental students is super competitive, in which the number of slots are less than the number of applicants. However, HPSP for medical students isn't competitive at all, bc the number of slots is greater than the number of applicants. Why? It is because the military is general has a difficult time keeping their physicians due to the fact that a civilian doc in FM (the lowest paying specialty) makes about 240-250K while taking 8 weeks of vacation per year.

 

[68PGunner]

Lastly, I am all for serving our service members. However, it is a big deal when you are asking a person to take a 40-50% paycut for 10 years while being deployable within a 72 hrs notice. At the end of the day, we all have bills to pay with mouths to feed at home.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Lastly, I am all for serving our service members. However, it is a big deal when you are asking a person to take a 40-50% paycut for 10 years while being deployable within a 72 hrs notice. At the end of the day, we all have bills to pay with mouths to feed at home.

Priorities are different for different people. The pay cut is not a big deal to me, and having no monetary debt makes it even less of a deal.

 

[68PGunner]

Priorities are different for different people. The pay cut is not a big deal to me, and having no monetary debt makes it even less of a deal.

For prior enlisted soldier like yourself, it might be worth it especially if you do HCSP. Medical school and residency years will count toward your 20 yr retirement mark.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For prior enlisted soldier like yourself, it might be worth it especially if you do HCSP. Medical school and residency years will count toward your 20 yr retirement mark.

Yeah. With the new BRS, my matched TSP contribution will be sweet with that O pay. I'm applying EMDP2 though. I won't be doing mil med or medicine at all most likely if I don't get accepted.

 

[68PGunner]

Yeah. With the new BRS, my matched TSP contribution will be sweet with that O pay. I'm applying EMDP2 though. I won't be doing mil med or medicine at all most likely if I don't get accepted.

EMDP2 is not competitive if you have a competitive application for medical school. That program is designed to lock military docs 10+ years in the system. If your application is good enough to get you IIs to USMDs and DOs, the PD for EMDP2 is not going to be stupid enough to accept a career enlisted soldiers with decorums with suspected stats and potential to finish medical school over a youngling who demonstrates the mental amplitude to meet and exceed standards.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

EMDP2 is not competitive if you have a competitive application for medical school. That program is designed to lock military docs 10+ years in the system. If your application is good enough to get you IIs to USMDs and DOs, the PD for EMDP2 is not going to be stupid enough to accept a career enlisted soldiers with decorums with suspected stats and potential to finish medical school over a youngling who demonstrates the mental amplitude to meet and exceed standards.

That's what I'm counting on. My LORs are amazing, and my stats are pretty competitive (3.6 GPA in math). We'll see. The board met this month, so now I'm just waiting and praying lol.

 

[trev5150]

Be warned: Army UAS units are a dumping ground for subpar aviation officers and rotary wing warrants that blow instrument check rides. It's is also and eddy pool for knucklehead NCO's because 13th Aviation Brigade (formerly known as UASTB - your future MOS school at beautiful Ft. Huachuca, AZ) has a zero attrition policy. There was once an NCO 96U that passed his Shadow check ride - after 8 attempts. In contrast, way back in 1998, as a young Marine 7314 UAV Operator I was the only student to graduate out of a class of 2. That's a 50% attrition rate if you're crunching the numbers. That dude didn't even make it out of academics and to the flight line before they shuffled him off to the cannon cockers (artillery for those of you that don't habla). So, take it as a warning. You're entering a world of dumb. It will test your patience daily. On the plus side, it won't really be to difficult to rise to the top in that crowd if you have any brains at all.

 

[68PGunner]

Be warned: Army UAS units are a dumping ground for subpar aviation officers and rotary wing warrants that blow instrument check rides. It's is also and eddy pool for knucklehead NCO's because 13th Aviation Brigade (formerly known as UASTB - your future MOS school at beautiful Ft. Huachuca, AZ) has a zero attrition policy. There was once an NCO 96U that passed his Shadow check ride - after 8 attempts. In contrast, way back in 1998, as a young Marine 7314 UAV Operator I was the only student to graduate out of a class of 2. That's a 50% attrition rate if you're crunching the numbers. That dude didn't even make it out of academics and to the flight line before they shuffled him off to the cannon cockers (artillery for those of you that don't habla). So, take it as a warning. You're entering a world of dumb. It will test your patience daily. On the plus side, it won't really be to difficult to rise to the top in that crowd if you have any brains at all.

Or you could have a bunch of cockblock$ at the top bc they are jealous little trolls.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Or you could have a bunch of cockblock$ at the top bc they are jealous little trolls.

Or the people at the top are equally stupid and are only there because they survived the war of attrition (read: they stayed in while the smart people got out). Not that I'm describing my current chain of command, which I actually really like.

 

[68PGunner]

Or the people at the top are equally stupid and are only there because they survived the war of attrition (read: they stayed in while the smart people got out). Not that I'm describing my current chain of command, which I actually really like.

Well, the smart ones that stay in have my upmost respect. Without them, this entire organization would turn in a pile of garbage. But, I agree. The smart people always get out 9/10.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Well, he is wrong. Read the regs. I looked through the regs myself bc I was considering all pathways when I was AD. They will force you to take the HPSP in order to grant you the educational delay. It is this simple:

1) You own 4 years of obligated AD for taking the ROTC Green to Gold package
2) You own another 4-5 years of obligated AD for taking the HPSP

You will pay back those years after residency. Medical school is IRR and doesn't count toward the obligated service years. Residency years are neutral.

68P - Army ROTC Graduates on Educational Delay are not required to apply or accept the HPSP Scholarship to attend Med School. The regulations indicate ROTC Ed Delay recipients may apply... This may not be true for Navy or AF - can't speak to those scenarios. Can you quote the AR you read that forces ROTC graduates to take the HPSP? ARs 601-25 and 351-3 do not require ROTC graduates to attend Med School on an HPSP scholarship. Those on Ed Delay even without HPSP however, are required to apply for military residency. ROTC graduates that go on to Med/Dent school can minimize their ADSO this way.

If you pay your own way you still owe time for the school stipend that you get regardless of whether you take the scholarship or not.

rebecca - If you pay your own way to dental or med school, what school stipend are you referring to? Are you referring to a 'Reserve/NG benefit' for Med School? Edit: Or, are you referring to the service obligation of ROTC non scholarship stipend for undergraduate?
Additonally, AR601-25, AR145-1, CC Reg 145-1, or CC Circular 601-16-1 (601-xx-1) may not allow Active Duty Green to Gold recipients to apply for an Ed Delay.

 

[68PGunner]

68P - Army ROTC Graduates on Educational Delay are not required to apply or accept the HPSP Scholarship to attend Med School. The regulations indicate ROTC Ed Delay recipients may apply... This may not be true for Navy or AF - can't speak to those scenarios. Can you quote the AR you read that forces ROTC graduates to take the HPSP? ARs 601-25 and 351-3 do not require ROTC graduates to attend Med School on an HPSP scholarship. Those on Ed Delay even without HPSP however, are required to apply for military residency. ROTC graduates that go on to Med/Dent school can minimize their ADSO this way.

rebecca - If you pay your own way to dental or med school, what school stipend are you referring to? Are you referring to a 'Reserve/NG benefit' for Med School? Edit: Or, are you referring to the service obligation of ROTC non scholarship stipend for undergraduate?
Additonally, AR601-25, AR145-1, CC Reg 145-1, or CC Circular 601-16-1 (601-xx-1) may not allow Active Duty Green to Gold recipients to apply for an Ed Delay.

Sigh... I can see that you are a noob who has zero experience when it comes to the military. Listen... When you apply for that little educational delay, you need the signature of your approving commander or someone. Usually, you let the person knows your goals and then you talk behind closed curtains. When it comes to these situations, you are not def not getting that signature unless you decide to give something in return. That means committing yourself further toward the goals of the Army by taking the HPSP.

 

[68PGunner]

If you don't take the HPSP, this is what your commander will say:

No, you have a duty obligation. We need you in these upcoming missions. Med school can wait until you are done with your contract.

 

[68PGunner]

rebecca - If you pay your own way to dental or med school, what school stipend are you referring to? Are you referring to a 'Reserve/NG benefit' for Med School? Edit: Or, are you referring to the service obligation of ROTC non scholarship stipend for undergraduate?
Additonally, AR601-25, AR145-1, CC Reg 145-1, or CC Circular 601-16-1 (601-xx-1) may not allow Active Duty Green to Gold recipients to apply for an Ed Delay.

He or she is talking about the school stipend associated with the Green to Gold Program.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Sigh... I can see that you are a noob who has zero experience when it comes to the military. Listen... When you apply for that little educational delay, you need the signature of your approving commander or someone. Usually, you let the person knows your goals and then you talk behind closed curtains. When it comes to these situations, you are not def not getting that signature unless you decide to give something in return. That means committing yourself further toward the goals of the Army by taking the HPSP.

68P - Stay calm. No need to question my military experience - though go ahead if you so choose. You are correct - 'something in return' - they have an ADSO for ROTC or Mil Residency whichever is longer. I am significantly further along in the process as an AD Army officer and now supporting relatives/friends with Ed Delay/HPSP/USUHS/Med School decisions. The ROTC PMS signs the letter of recommendation for the Ed Delay and the Ed Delay packet, significantly prior (August 20xx) to the HPSP contract signature by an applicant(June/July 20xx +1). The HPSP contract signature, or not, commonly occurs after transfer to the ED Delay control group out of the reach of the PMS. The commitment in return for ROTC and the Ed Delay is paid after residency and does not require a cadet to sign on for additional years with the HPSP scholarship (USMA may require HPSP for their Ed Delay recipients). The Army is happy to wait 5-9 years to get an MD/DO or 3-4 years JD/DDS for the cost of an ROTC Scholarship. I have never observed a PMS hold a cadet hostage to HPSP as you describe. If the Army ROTC Cadet earns a full scholarship to Med School great - take it. The Army will get their pound of flesh but they don't always cause a sucking chest wound.

68P - Were you able to find a regulation that requires ROTC Cadets to apply for or take the HPSP if they accept the Ed Delay? All references I found indicate 'may' apply and I know Ed Delay 2LTs in Med School now and CPT/MAJs on AD that did not take HPSP for their MD/DO.

 

[68PGunner]

68P - Stay calm. No need to question my military experience - though go ahead if you so choose. You are correct - 'something in return' - they have an ADSO for ROTC or Mil Residency whichever is longer. I am significantly further along in the process as an AD Army officer and now supporting relatives/friends with Ed Delay/HPSP/USUHS/Med School decisions. The ROTC PMS signs the letter of recommendation for the Ed Delay and the Ed Delay packet, significantly prior (August 20xx) to the HPSP contract signature by an applicant(June/July 20xx +1). The HPSP contract signature, or not, commonly occurs after transfer to the ED Delay control group out of the reach of the PMS. The commitment in return for ROTC and the Ed Delay is paid after residency and does not require a cadet to sign on for additional years with the HPSP scholarship (USMA may require HPSP for their Ed Delay recipients). The Army is happy to wait 5-9 years to get an MD/DO or 3-4 years JD/DDS for the cost of an ROTC Scholarship. I have never observed a PMS hold a cadet hostage to HPSP as you describe. If the Army ROTC Cadet earns a full scholarship to Med School great - take it. The Army will get their pound of flesh but they don't always cause a sucking chest wound.

68P - Were you able to find a regulation that requires ROTC Cadets to apply for or take the HPSP if they accept the Ed Delay? All references I found indicate 'may' apply and I know Ed Delay 2LTs in Med School now and CPT/MAJs on AD that did not take HPSP for their MD/DO.

If you are asking about the regulation, there is no regulation that I am aware of. However, it is a common thing for some O5 and O6 to hold soldiers hostage if they are not willing to commit further to the Army. I have seen this kind of things quite often at line units. If you got the Ed delay, good for you. However, don't make it sound like that is normal business. The bottom line is that you are not going anywhere without that signature, which is up to the person discretion. In many cases, the person in charge will only approve in order to extract more flesh from you.

Your buddies were fortunate enough to be with good leaders. However, there have been many cases where soldiers have to endure the end of their contracts and delay their medical studies. Don't make it sound like the Army is a perfect well run machine. Both you and I know that it's completely false.

 

[68PGunner]

...

 

[Froggy25]

I interviewed at usuhs with the emdp2 folks. It seemed like if you pass the prerequisites and score 500+ you were guaranteed admission. They said one guy was told to retake the Mcat but everyone else had received interviews.

I hope this isn't true. I completely get the DoD's tangible commitment to the education of the folks in the emdp2 program, but a ~500 MCAT score is not competitive at any allopathic school in the US. I'd really like to think that the Army isn't taking people into USUHS just because they're already in the Army. I'd lose a little more faith in the Army if that were the case.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I hope this isn't true. I completely get the DoD's tangible commitment to the education of the folks in the emdp2 program, but a ~500 MCAT score is not competitive at any allopathic school in the US. I'd really like to think that the Army isn't taking people into USUHS just because they're already in the Army. I'd lose a little more faith in the Army if that were the case.

Not sure about the Army, but from the Navy side, you have to be a pretty stellar Sailor. The few people I know who have been selected had ~3.8 uGPAs and excellent SAT and ACT scores, not to mention merit awards and excellent recommendations. These are not the types of people who will be scoring 500s on the MCAT. The board selects people it feels will succeed academically at USUHS.

 

[Froggy25]

Not sure about the Army, but from the Navy side, you have to be a pretty stellar Sailor. The few people I know who have been selected had ~3.8 uGPAs and excellent SAT and ACT scores, not to mention merit awards and excellent recommendations. These are not the types of people who will be scoring 500s on the MCAT. The board selects people it feels will succeed academically at USUHS.

And I totally get that. I'm not questioning the emdp2 program writ large. I'm questioning the idea that if you have a 500 MCAT and come from that program that you're a shoo-in for USUHS. I've known quite a few people with high GPAs from not-so-tough schools that ended up with a low MCAT. Perhaps I'm biased, but I personally believe the MCAT is the great equalizer.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And I totally get that. I'm not questioning the emdp2 program writ large. I'm questioning the idea that if you have a 500 MCAT and come from that program that you're a shoo-in for USUHS. I've known quite a few people with high GPAs from not-so-tough schools that ended up with a low MCAT. Perhaps I'm biased, but I personally believe the MCAT is the great equalizer.

There's also a difference between being competitive for schools and being capable of succeeding in med school. There were a couple threads on pre-allo I think about how stats creep has made high MCAT scores necessary even though the AAMC says a 500 is a good predictor of being able to perform well in med school.

 

[Froggy25]

Usuhs minimum Mcat accepted from last year was 495 I believe.

I interviewed with the program participants this year and they shared what I said.

The Mcat is the great equalizer in a sense. It's one thing that can easily separate applicants. However above a certain point, it doesn't really differentiate people that are more likely to succeed in school right? Maybe admissions feels that the program selectees have already been vetted for achievements/motivation to serve as a mil doc. So if they meet the cutoff, they can gain an acceptance.

I agree that there is definitely more to one's academic competency than the MCAT, cGPA, etc alone. I also agree that, above a certain threshold, the specific MCAT score doesn't really matter. However, a 495 is the 35th percentile, and I'd hope the "doesn't really matter" threshold is pretty far above a 495. Then again, I don't sit on an admission's committee, so who cares what I think lol.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

68P - Army ROTC Graduates on Educational Delay are not required to apply or accept the HPSP Scholarship to attend Med School. The regulations indicate ROTC Ed Delay recipients may apply... This may not be true for Navy or AF - can't speak to those scenarios. Can you quote the AR you read that forces ROTC graduates to take the HPSP? ARs 601-25 and 351-3 do not require ROTC graduates to attend Med School on an HPSP scholarship. Those on Ed Delay even without HPSP however, are required to apply for military residency. ROTC graduates that go on to Med/Dent school can minimize their ADSO this way.


rebecca - If you pay your own way to dental or med school, what school stipend are you referring to? Are you referring to a 'Reserve/NG benefit' for Med School? Edit: Or, are you referring to the service obligation of ROTC non scholarship stipend for undergraduate?
Additonally, AR601-25, AR145-1, CC Reg 145-1, or CC Circular 601-16-1 (601-xx-1) may not allow Active Duty Green to Gold recipients to apply for an Ed Delay.

So if you are already on active duty and you are accepted to medical school you can submit a conditional release (DD Form 368) along with supporting documents (acceptance letter to med school) you are conditionally released from your functional branch to attend school. While you are in school you receive a flat payment of $2,000 per month + tricare whether or not you board for the HSPS. The HSPS pays your tuition but regardless the army puts you on a stipend if you are attending school on a conditional release. That's going to cause issues for me in the future because I won't be making a captain's pay any more and my husband is in school full time. It would be nice if I was wrong about this, but I don't think I am.

 

[Froggy25]

There's also a difference between being competitive for schools and being capable of succeeding in med school. There were a couple threads on pre-allo I think about how stats creep has made high MCAT scores necessary even though the AAMC says a 500 is a good predictor of being able to perform well in med school.

I've read the same literature from the AAMC. At the end of the day, it appears that ADCOMs tend to disagree, as the acceptance rate for this MCAT score range of 24-26 is 18%. It jumps to 58% when you go to the 30-32 range.

Again, I'm not questioning USUHS for ultimately accepting emdp2 applicants with a 500 MCAT - I'm really not. I am, however, questioning the notion of an automatic acceptance in this MCAT range. As a guy who has sat on more than one selection board, it doesn't pass my military sniff test, even understanding that mil med is different than line units.

There's a greater purpose behind my questioning. Anecdotally, I've met quite a few 18D's / 68W's / SARC Corpsmen who are operating under the presumption that if they just pass their pre-req classes they'll be a shoo-in for med school. The data doesn't support that, and I feel like we're doing a disservice to our young studs if we perpetuate unsubstantiated information.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've read the same literature from the AAMC. At the end of the day, it appears that ADCOMs tend to disagree, as the acceptance rate for this MCAT score range of 24-26 is 18%. It jumps to 58% when you go to the 30-32 range.

I don't think this is the same thing. Higher MCAT scores correlate with higher acceptance rates because having applicants with higher scores and twice as many applicants means that higher MCAT scores makes you more competitive. This doesn't mean that a higher MCAT score is required to succeed in medical school, it means that a higher MCAT score is required to matriculate (or at least have a better shot at matriculation).

Again, I'm not questioning USUHS for ultimately accepting emdp2 applicants with a 500 MCAT - I'm really not. I am, however, questioning the notion of an automatic acceptance in this MCAT range. As a guy who has sat on more than one selection board, it doesn't pass my military sniff test, even understanding that mil med is different than line units.

It makes sense to me. A 500 is a little higher than what the AAMC judges is necessary to predict success in med school. If selectees have a 3.6+ uGPA and then perform well in the prereq courses and score above that threshold, it makes sense to offer them admission, as you've already judged them on every other aspect.

There's a greater purpose behind my questioning. Anecdotally, I've met quite a few 18D's / 68W's / SARC Corpsmen who are operating under the presumption that if they just pass their pre-req classes they'll be a shoo-in for med school. The data doesn't support that, and I feel like we're doing a disservice to our young studs if we perpetuate unsubstantiated information.

EMDP2 is not the same as regular med school admissions and should not be treated as such. Even EMDP2 selectees will have trouble getting accepted to civilian schools with only a 500 MCAT and just passing their courses. Vets getting out of the military and using that experience to make up for poor grades are misinformed, but I don't think anyone is telling that demographic not to worry about grades.

 

[68PGunner]

Any medical service member with MCAT 500+ will probably pass medical school and become at least a PCP assuming that they maintain the same drive and discipline displayed in the military. At the end of the day, the military only cares about filling the physician quota.

At the same time, getting a physician 20+ yrs in the military is necessary investment that will pay great dividends for the service. Do you honestly care that your family medicine doc scores 500 on his MCAT? Get real, son. Also, the MCAT is only a good predictor how you passing your classes in your first year. It is a different ballgame after that, in which intangibles that are molded in the military will come into display.

 

[68PGunner]

I personally think that EMDP2 is a great program that targets career military service members who have the mental aptitude to become physicians. In my opinion, the shortage for docs in the military will continue to get worse in the next 10-15 years, with every doc leaving after his or her initial obligated years. In the preallo thread, we have a guy attesting that he is a family practice doc practicing in a small town of 80K people, netting 250K while taking 8 weeks of vacation. He is expected to make 300+K next year while only taking one month of vacation. This is not an exception to the rule. I am hearing these stories too often from actual docs on the ground. If the person wants to be a desirable location, he or she will only take a 15-20% salary cut. That is still great compensation. Military med can't compete with the civilian sector when it comes to pay and working conditions.

Therefore, the best way to address the situation is to lock down the docs right now and address the issue down the road when it comes an even bigger issue. The crappy, deteriorating conditions and lack of respect for docs are causing this downfall. The pendulum in term of the power structure bet docs and midlevels is starting to swing the other way, with more docs voting their opinions by ETSing.

 

[Froggy25]

At the end of the day, the military only cares about filling the physician quota.

Agree completely.

In the preallo thread, we have a guy attesting that he is a family practice doc practicing in a small town of 80K people, netting 250K.....

Read his thread with interest yesterday. Those are some good numbers, and I concur that mil med will have a hard time competing with those kinds of wages to get people who are not already vested with previous mil service.

The crappy, deteriorating conditions and lack of respect for docs are causing this downfall. The pendulum in term of the power structure bet docs and midlevels is starting to swing the other way, with more docs voting their opinions by ETSing

This was a never-ending source of conversation with our surgeons in Afghanistan a few months ago. Their general consensus is the same - like all things military, it will swing the other way as physicians leave the military because of work power dynamics, not just money. From talking to them, hospital commanders who are midlevels are the source of their frustration.

 

[Froggy25]

Switching subjects a bit: I was surprised to see that only 16 people applied to the Army EMDP2 program last year. 7 were selected. That's a good selection ratio for such a lucrative opportunity. Is the word just not getting out? I've got to believe there's more that 16 enlisted soldiers with bachelor's degrees, a 3.2 GPA and 3 years TIS who would like a shot at free pre-med while staying on AD and maintaining rank....

 

[68PGunner]

Switching subjects a bit: I was surprised to see that only 16 people applied to the Army EMDP2 program last year. 7 were selected. That's a good selection ratio for such a lucrative opportunity. Is the word just not getting out? I've got to believe there's more that 16 enlisted soldiers with bachelor's degrees, a 3.2 GPA and 3 years TIS who would like a shot at free pre-med while staying on AD and maintaining rank....

Not a well known program unless you work at a med center.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Switching subjects a bit: I was surprised to see that only 16 people applied to the Army EMDP2 program last year. 7 were selected. That's a good selection ratio for such a lucrative opportunity. Is the word just not getting out? I've got to believe there's more that 16 enlisted soldiers with bachelor's degrees, a 3.2 GPA and 3 years TIS who would like a shot at free pre-med while staying on AD and maintaining rank....

Not sure about those numbers. Each branch is given 5 spots. Around 100 people applied in the Navy last year.

Edit: it may be that of the total applicant pool, 16 were in the top running, and they chose 5 and 2 alternates. The Sailor I know in the program now said of the ~100 applicants, only about half of them were qualified. And I know they selected at least one alternate, but only 5 get to go.

 

[Tannersousa]

I still think that accepting only 5 from each branch is silly, I think if there is enough of a shortage they should let all the qualified applicants in.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@Tannersousa For obvious reasons I agree with you lol

 

[Froggy25]

Not sure about those numbers. Each branch is given 5 spots. Around 100 people applied in the Navy last year.

Edit: it may be that of the total applicant pool, 16 were in the top running, and they chose 5 and 2 alternates. The Sailor I know in the program now said of the ~100 applicants, only about half of them were qualified. And I know they selected at least one alternate, but only 5 get to go.

Those are Army-only numbers. They came from the MILPER this year. It by-name listed those accepted (7), those on the alternate list (3) and those rejected (6).

To be fair, I'm making the assumption that since the MILPER by-named those that they straight rejected, the total list of 16 names is inclusive of everyone who applied. Perhaps it was just those that made it to the final round of selection or something.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Those are Army-only numbers. They came from the MILPER this year. It by-name listed those accepted (7), those on the alternate list (3) and those rejected (6).

To be fair, I'm making the assumption that since the MILPER by-named those that they straight rejected, the total list of 16 names is inclusive of everyone who applied. Perhaps it was just those that made it to the final round of selection or something.

Maybe. For some reason I was under the impression that each branch has 5 slots. Not sure where I got that from. I also find it hard to believe that the Army only had 16 applications even though it's been around in the Army for 4 years now, and the Navy had 100 despite it being our first year. If that's true, I should have joined the Army.

Edit: to be fair, the Navy only publishes the names of those accepted. I only know they had an alternate because one of the original selectees was ultimately replaced by another person. The 100 applications number is coming from someone in the program who says that's the number floating down from admin.

 

[68PGunner]

I still think that accepting only 5 from each branch is silly, I think if there is enough of a shortage they should let all the qualified applicants in.

Don't worry the slots for this program will be ramped up soon once they are not meeting the physician quotas through HPSP. This is a fantastic program that will be more heavily utilized once they see the amount of $$$ that is saved over the long run.

 

[Tannersousa]

Im not much of a numbers guy, but I can only assume that the actual cost of sending a soldier through medical school isn't actually that much money. So I'm sure you're correct about the available slots going up quite a bit.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I can update this thread once the selection message comes out at least from the Navy perspective. If we increase the number of spots, the other services probably will too.

 

[Tannersousa]

Please do, this thread is actually becoming quite the wealth of information.

 

[Froggy25]

For the Army people, Cohort Year 17 packets for EMDP2 are due Jan 15th. All required info can be found in MILPER 16-162 and at this website (CAC required): https://www.us.army.mil/suite/page/143. Of note, I searched the MILPERS and website in-depth, and can't find anything that speaks to a cap for students. Considering the Army accepted 7 people last year and put 3 on the alternate list, I'm fairly certain the 5-per-service limit is bunk, at least for the Army.

There's a lot of requirements that people haven't talked about (TIS, max age, LORs, etc) that are spelled out at that website. Understanding that one is almost assuredly too late to apply this year, for those that may be trolling for next year, it would probably be worth looking at to get an idea of what your packet needs to look like. It's similar in nature to the Blue to Green (or Blue to Gold for you seafaring folk) packets.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For the Army people, Cohort Year 17 packets for EMDP2 are due Jan 15th. All required info can be found in MILPER 16-162 and at this website (CAC required): https://www.us.army.mil/suite/page/143. Of note, I searched the MILPERS and website in-depth, and can't find anything that speaks to a cap for students. Considering the Army accepted 7 people last year and put 3 on the alternate list, I'm fairly certain the 5-per-service limit is bunk, at least for the Army.

There's a lot of requirements that people haven't talked about (TIS, max age, LORs, etc) that are spelled out at that website. Understanding that one is almost assuredly too late to apply this year, for those that may be trolling for next year, it would probably be worth looking at to get an idea of what your packet needs to look like. It's similar in nature to the Blue to Green (or Blue to Gold for you seafaring folk) packets.

Yeah, it seems like it. I got the 5 seat per service thing from the MARADMIN:

3. Per ref (a), the SECNAV has authorized Marine participation for FY17. Five seats are designated per service per class.

Looks like that might only apply to DON though.

Edit:
http://www.marines.mil/News/Message...l-degree-preparatory-program-emdp2-announcem/

 

[Helpful Troll]

This is pretty interesting. So for funding green to gold to finish undergrad then gi bill to pay for med school?

Are ed delayed people not in hpsp eligible for the military match?

Army ROTC Ed Delay for Med School recipients are required to apply for Mil Match if they take HPSP or not. The requirement is in MODS and possibly their Ed Delay contract. They, like HPSP recipients, are subject to residency availability limitations and can be 'pushed' to an unfunded civilian match or given internship year training only.

I'm not sure what you are asking regarding 'green to gold to finish undergrad then gi bill to pay for med school?'. The Active Duty Green to Gold program requires recipients to immediately go back to AD. This is different that green to gold participants that use GI bill for example. I am not sure the regulation or accessions document but recall reading the Active Duty Green to Gold participants are not eligible to apply for Ed Delay.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There's a lot of requirements that people haven't talked about (TIS, max age, LORs, etc) that are spelled out at that website. Understanding that one is almost assuredly too late to apply this year, for those that may be trolling for next year, it would probably be worth looking at to get an idea of what your packet needs to look like.

If anyone trolling this thread is Navy or Marines, feel free to PM me if you want to know what goes into the packet. Ours is due Nov 1 each cycle, which is much earlier than the Army. A lot goes into the packet, so you need to start early.

 

[Helpful Troll]

So if you are already on active duty and you are accepted to medical school you can submit a conditional release (DD Form 368) along with supporting documents (acceptance letter to med school) you are conditionally released from your functional branch to attend school. While you are in school you receive a flat payment of $2,000 per month + tricare whether or not you board for the HSPS. The HSPS pays your tuition but regardless the army puts you on a stipend if you are attending school on a conditional release. That's going to cause issues for me in the future because I won't be making a captain's pay any more and my husband is in school full time. It would be nice if I was wrong about this, but I don't think I am.

rebecca - I am not up to date with the route to med school directly from AD (non ROTC cadet). However, if you have not completed your AD Service Obligation or MSO you are at the mercy of your command structure for release - though as a CPT you are likely familiar with this.

I am curious - what program is paying this $2K monthly stipend and tricare? What did the AMEDD recruiter call it? I have never heard of this unless you apply for and accept the HPSP scholarship. Are you sure it exists or is it a failure to communicate by an AMEDD recruiter? My question is regarding the highlighted above. HPSP does not pay your O salary while in school. You would have to take out loans if your COL is more than the tuition + $2K per month. HPSP recipients are not eligible for Tricare.

The only options that I am aware of that pay salary while in med school are USUHS and Navy HSCP or EMDP2 for Enlisted only. Edit: EMDP2 is for completing med school pre req's not med school so it should not be in this list. My understanding of your scenario is that you are currently AD CPT and are ready to apply to med school. Have you completed all your pre reqs? Are you a competitive applicant - GPA/EC/MCAT?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The only programs I know of that pay a stipend in med school are HPSP/HSCP/MDSSP. I also think there may be one specifically for medical service corps officers making the transition.

Don't forget that USUHS pays that O-1 pay. Course you're locked in for 7 years afterwards.

 

[Helpful Troll]

The only programs I know of that pay a stipend in med school are HPSP/HSCP/MDSSP. I also think there may be one specifically for medical service corps officers making the transition.

You might be right - maybe the AMEDD Recruiter was discussing NG with her - hence the MDSSP stipend. I don't know of any specifically for Med Service Corps Officers transitioning that isn't available to all applicants.

 

[xffan624]

Long Term Health Education and Training(LTHET) is defined in AR 351-3 as full-time, DOD-subsidized (military-sponsored) health or health-related education or training in a military or civilian facility of 26 weeks or more including education or training received in preparation for commissioning as a health professions officer (for example, medical school) and subsequent commissioning (for example, GPE). For the AMEDD-4 (MS, AN, SP, and VC), LTHET translates as full-time, graduate education programs through a civilian institutions (masters or doctoral degree producing) and/or US Army programs affiliated with civilian institutions such as the Army/Baylor University Health Care Administration Program. LTHET also includes degree or certificate producing education programs conducted in federal and civilian facilities such as fellowship programs, internships, and Training with Industry (TWI). Currently, all officers are selected for funding with a specified tuition cap; they continue to receive full pay and allowances, allowing them to focus on learning, not financial obligations.

LTHET consolidated selection boards are held for the AMEDD-4 annually. These boards are classified as Officer Personnel Management Directorate (OPMD) boards, vice DA Secretariat level. OPMD is responsible for the administration, logistics and resources for these boards. TDY funding for HSD is derived from two primary sources: HRC and OTSG/MEDCOM.

Former MS corps officer here. It's competitive to apply for (only a couple slots per program) and I never saw anyone use it for an MD as it's usually only authorized for 2-3 years. Have you seen it used for that?