Medical School Doesn't Matter

[DrNick2006]

a little FYI, with very rare exceptions...

The Medical School you graduate from DOESN"T MATTER!!!

thats right, not one bit, so stop worrying so much. If you get in somewhere you can get a great residency in any field coming from any medical school. It depends on YOU, not your medical school. Going to Harvard Medical School then MGH for residency and John Hopkins for fellowship will not necessarily make you a better physician or happier. SO just relax OK.

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[tkdusb]

*Puts on flame suit*

It might matter. This is going to end up being a painfully long and horrible discussion. I will just say that people will have different opinions on this issue, and we should all just agree to disagree. Let's eat cookies now.

 

[Snowboarder]

I get that same advice from practicing physicians all the time so there must be some truth to it, yet I find it hard to believe from the perspective of someone who wants to go into a competative residency and watching many of my friends already in med school freaking out over the Match process. The school you go to must play SOME role in the residency placement you get.

Mind if I ask where you went to school?

 

[tiffany96]

Honestly, while this is probably opening a can of worms, I would like to know what people's opinions are on the topic. I hear differing things from physicians all the time. I would like to end up doing clinical research, as opposed to only having a practice, so I'm wondering if that makes the school name more important?
I only ask because I've received admission and a scholarship to a state school which gives great clinical experienced, but isn't ranked or anything like that. And I'm trying to figure out if it might be worth forgoing that to go to Columbia...any thoughts?

 

[Law2Doc]

I get that same advice from practicing physicians all the time so there must be some truth to it,

That wouldn't really prove anything -- it might be more dependent on where they went.
However I basically agree with the OP -- if you are at any allo med school, have stellar board scores, good clinical rotation grades, good recs, then you basically can end up anywhere no matter what school it is.

 

[NoSoupforYou13]

Honestly, while this is probably opening a can of worms, I would like to know what people's opinions are on the topic. I hear differing things from physicians all the time. I would like to end up doing clinical research, as opposed to only having a practice, so I'm wondering if that makes the school name more important?
I only ask because I've received admission and a scholarship to a state school which gives great clinical experienced, but isn't ranked or anything like that. And I'm trying to figure out if it might be worth forgoing that to go to Columbia...any thoughts?

I have heard it matters more for:

competitive specialties
academic medicine

I have heard it matters less for:

anything having to do with primary care
private practice in a non-competitive specialty
community-based hospitals

It really depends on who you ask. Like anything else, there are worthwhile benefits to going to a highly ranked school depending on one’s career path.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

It is absolutely true that you can go into any specialty you want no matter what school you go to. But you'll have to have a more impressive CV in other areas, such as board scores, class rank, etc... if you go to a school with a "lesser" reputation. If you have your heart set on a very competitive residency, I would suggest going to the best school you can get into. Residency directors know the difficulty of getting into a great medical school, and the name alone will probably open some doors for you when it comes to getting residency interviews.

 

[KevinZ]

I think everyone can agree that one's performance in medical school means more than the school one graduates from. That being said, go to a school where you'll fit in, enjoy the atmosphere, and do well.

I think it's an exaggeration to say that the name makes no difference at all. A person who graduates in the middle-of-the-class at Hopkins will likely do better in the residency match than a person who graduates in the middle of a lesser known state-school. Likewise, I imagine the AOA at Hopkins will also do better than the AOA's at other medical schools. It's not to say that students at lesser known schools can't compete or have a class ceiling, but they do have a harder path to prove themselves.

The career one seeks also makes a big difference. I've heard that for someone who opens a clinic or goes into private practice, the name won't mean much. However, for those that choose academic medicine or want to revolutionize medicine or health care, the prestige and connections that come with "top tier" medical schools will make a difference. Funding comes easier and having alumni ties will help. Again, what one does with those opportunities means more than the opportunities available, but there is a difference.

It's the same story with medical school admissions for most of us now. Some have even heard the line during interviews of "Which school is that again?" I go to a top-25 public university. HMS accepted one student from my class last year, UPenn took 1, and JHU accepted 4 (and it's a public school, so it's a huge pool of applicants). Someone on this forum posted that only one Berkeley student was accepted on average at HMS each year. Nevertheless, I'm fairly confident that at least 10 Harvard ahd Hopkins undergraduates make their way into HMS each year. So you can make it to the best medical schools from anywhere, but you'll need to prove yourself more than some other applicants that have the name prestige and reputation going for them. I imagine much of that mentality carries over to residency matching as well. I don't know if there's a correlation between "good doctors" and "good medical schools," but schools ranked higher often match better on average than lower-tiered medical schools.

In the end, everyone has a different opinion and I completely agree that happiness and medical school ranking probably show no correlation, much less causation. Opportunity is what you make of it and everyone has a chance to cross the finish line. However, I think it's also naive to assume that everyone starts at the same line to begin.

 

[Prospero]

From what I have heard from every doctor, it only matters that you get great clinical grades, have good recs, and good board scores. The school might matter but not enough to stress over, and even your grades from the first two years aren't as important as what happens in 3rd/4th year. So go where you'll be happy and you'll get better grades, which will benefit you more than anything! (just like several people have said before me)

 

[BMW M3]

Among doctors, medical school does not matter much; residency matters more.


Among the common folk, medical school matters more; it can weigh heavily on the patient's impression of the doctor. In fact, HMOs report the medical school and year of graduation for their doctors.

 

[pseudoknot]

I would like to end up doing clinical research, as opposed to only having a practice, so I'm wondering if that makes the school name more important?
I only ask because I've received admission and a scholarship to a state school which gives great clinical experienced, but isn't ranked or anything like that. And I'm trying to figure out if it might be worth forgoing that to go to Columbia...any thoughts?

If you want to go into research, keep in mind that you'll make a lot less than private practice docs, so you REALLY want to go to the cheapest school you can.

 

[hardy]

I think it's an exaggeration to say that the name makes no difference at all. A person who graduates in the middle-of-the-class at Hopkins will likely do better in the residency match than a person who graduates in the middle of a lesser known state-school. Likewise, I imagine the AOA at Hopkins will also do better than the AOA's at other medical schools. It's not to say that students at lesser known schools can't compete or have a class ceiling, but they do have a harder path to prove themselves.

That's all nice... but you forget that a student who graduates in the middle of a lesser known state-school probably would not graduate in the middle of the class at Hopkins. The competition at Hopkins would be much stiffer.
I imagine that it could even be good for some students to attend a lesser known school if they are higher up in their class, make AOA and get their residency of choice.

 

[Mateodaspy]

I think everyone can agree that one's performance in medical school means more than the school one graduates from. That being said, go to a school where you'll fit in, enjoy the atmosphere, and do well.

I think it's an exaggeration to say that the name makes no difference at all. A person who graduates in the middle-of-the-class at Hopkins will likely do better in the residency match than a person who graduates in the middle of a lesser known state-school. Likewise, I imagine the AOA at Hopkins will also do better than the AOA's at other medical schools. It's not to say that students at lesser known schools can't compete or have a class ceiling, but they do have a harder path to prove themselves.

The career one seeks also makes a big difference. I've heard that for someone who opens a clinic or goes into private practice, the name won't mean much. However, for those that choose academic medicine or want to revolutionize medicine or health care, the prestige and connections that come with "top tier" medical schools will make a difference. Funding comes easier and having alumni ties will help. Again, what one does with those opportunities means more than the opportunities available, but there is a difference.

It's the same story with medical school admissions for most of us now. Some have even heard the line during interviews of "Which school is that again?" I go to a top-25 public university. HMS accepted one student from my class last year, UPenn took 1, and JHU accepted 4 (and it's a public school, so it's a huge pool of applicants). Someone on this forum posted that only one Berkeley student was accepted on average at HMS each year. Nevertheless, I'm fairly confident that at least 10 Harvard ahd Hopkins undergraduates make their way into HMS each year. So you can make it to the best medical schools from anywhere, but you'll need to prove yourself more than some other applicants that have the name prestige and reputation going for them. I imagine much of that mentality carries over to residency matching as well. I don't know if there's a correlation between "good doctors" and "good medical schools," but schools ranked higher often match better on average than lower-tiered medical schools.

In the end, everyone has a different opinion and I completely agree that happiness and medical school ranking probably show no correlation, much less causation. Opportunity is what you make of it and everyone has a chance to cross the finish line. However, I think it's also naive to assume that everyone starts at the same line to begin.

Heh... way more than that... there are 34 out of my class of 167 at HMS who went to Harvard for undergrad...

 

[DeadorAlive]

My favorite is the stat that Yale takes ~25% of its first-year class from Harvard + Yale... no similar favoritism shown to Princeton, Stanford, etc....

Yes, it's obnoxious, no we can't do anything about it at this stage of the game.

 

[Vox Animo]

I'm very glad that most top end students think that their school matters. That leaves plently of room for applicants with less competive scores such as myself. You might even say i owe my acceptance to their arrogance (this is sarcasm) . Yeah, they are the biggest bunch of suckers that ever sucked

 

[Law2Doc]

That's all nice... but you forget that a student who graduates in the middle of a lesser known state-school probably would not graduate in the middle of the class at Hopkins. The competition at Hopkins would be much stiffer.

Again, this whole middle of the class discussion is moot. Because the one with the higher board scores is going to have the edge, because that counts more than class rank. If we go down the "all other things being equal road", then this kind of thing might matter. But that really never happens in real life.

I do, however question the notion that it is easier to be at a certain rank in the class in one school versus another. The difference in credentials from one allo school to another are not really that significant -- we are really talking about folks with a B+ average versus an A- average, and so frankly the competition gradewise will be pretty comparable. It's not like the really smart kids go to top ten schools and everyone else is dim.

 

[discus]

Again, this whole middle of the class discussion is moot. Because the one with the higher board scores is going to have the edge, because that counts more than class rank. If we go down the "all other things being equal road", then this kind of thing might matter. But that really never happens in real life.

I do, however question the notion that it is easier to be at a certain rank in the class in one school versus another. The difference in credentials from one allo school to another are not really that significant -- we are really talking about folks with a B+ average versus an A- average, and so frankly the competition gradewise will be pretty comparable. It's not like the really smart kids go to top ten schools and everyone else is dim.

Well said, as always...

 

[nmnrraven]

In truth, what kind of doctor you are is based on an absolute scale. By going to some bigger name universities, you may get a door opened for you but that is about it. Your board scores and other awards/qualifications will determine what residency you get, not much else. When people show statistics of Harvard students getting certain residencies, they forget to mention that, a lot of the times, it is because those very students are top notch.

Top notch students get top notch residencies. Top notch schools usually accept top notch students. That is the correlation--nothing else. So, if you're smart and do well, you'll do well.

 

[Rafa]

My favorite is the stat that Yale takes ~25% of its first-year class from Harvard + Yale... no similar favoritism shown to Princeton, Stanford, etc....

I'm curious - where did you find that out?

And which other private med schools (apart from Harvard) are known for taking large chunks of students from the undergrad?

 

[DeadorAlive]

Rough approximation from the details they give of the 1st year class profile on interview day. I'd find the numbers, but I'm lazy.

 

[macadamianut]

I would say a quarter at least of HMS is made up of Harvard+Yale. It's pretty disgusting.

 

[DrNick2006]

yes HMS takes yale and harvard grads more and YES MGH and The brigham takes JHU and HMS grads more than others... SO WHAT? what does going to HMS then MGH for cards get you? Nothing!! Not one bit. Someone going to po-dunk state for medical school and residency and does cards fellowship and community hospital X will still be a cardiologist whom is sucessful, competent and knowledgeable and will probably have a more enjoyable road b/c they are not taking **** all the time and playing the climb the latter game the way the HMS grad and MGH will be. Of course, if you want to be dean of yale medical school you need to do this, but who really wants to do that? Are you in the field to be a doctor or an administrator?

YES if you want to go to MGH someday then you should go to Harvard for med school. Yes it feels good to say "I go to cornell". But the point is that the vast majority of medical students will go into private practice, move out of this need to achieve phase and be more concerned with living a life. Climbing the latter is not life to most people. YOu can go to Any medical school in the US and come out any type of physician. You may not get the "very best" residencies but so what? There are plenty of very good residency programs around.

 

[drmota]

Among doctors, medical school does not matter much; residency matters more.


Among the common folk, medical school matters more; it can weigh heavily on the patient's impression of the doctor. In fact, HMOs report the medical school and year of graduation for their doctors.

recently i've been asking people where their doctors went to med school (when their doctor comes up in conversation) and not ONE person has known. so...ya
-mota

 

[NonTradMed]

Well, I think med school name DOES matter for certain types of jobs...jobs in academia and in getting competitive residencies. I also think it would help if you want to parlay your degree into leadership positions. My parents work at a top pharm company and they said alot of their VPs have MDs and/or MBAs from Harvard, Yale etc.

But for the rest of us, who just want to be good docs, I think any med school in the US will do. Name brand does help when you want to compete at a very elite level (where everyone has good stats, and the only distinguishing characteristic is your school name), or when you plan on sticking in academia, but otherwise, it's not that big of a deal.

I feel no resentment for people who attended top schools. Heck, if I could, I would have as well. Sure, some people at elite med schools are snots, but most worked hard for their acceptances, I think anyone who just goes around saying someone is a 'snob' or 'elitist' for attending a top med school is merely jealous. Me? I envy my friend who got ito Harvard but I know she worked hard for it, so why should I think less of her for it?

And as for me, I'm one of those people that is grateful to be accepted (and to a middle of the road state school to boot!).

 

[Einsteinemc2]

yes HMS takes yale and harvard grads more and YES MGH and The brigham takes JHU and HMS grads more than others... SO WHAT? what does going to HMS then MGH for cards get you? Nothing!! Not one bit. Someone going to po-dunk state for medical school and residency and does cards fellowship and community hospital X will still be a cardiologist whom is sucessful, competent and knowledgeable and will probably have a more enjoyable road b/c they are not taking **** all the time and playing the climb the latter game the way the HMS grad and MGH will be. Of course, if you want to be dean of yale medical school you need to do this, but who really wants to do that? Are you in the field to be a doctor or an administrator?

YES if you want to go to MGH someday then you should go to Harvard for med school. Yes it feels good to say "I go to cornell". But the point is that the vast majority of medical students will go into private practice, move out of this need to achieve phase and be more concerned with living a life. Climbing the latter is not life to most people. YOu can go to Any medical school in the US and come out any type of physician. You may not get the "very best" residencies but so what? There are plenty of very good residency programs around.

well, i'm pretty sure saying you went to harvard or JHU feels pretty good. and you can carry that with you the rest of your life. and depending on who you talk to, that could be very important.

listen, getting into these schools is a major accomplishment. furthermore, the type of students hms and jhu attract don't want to solely do private practice. with their resources, they train you to be leaders in some field of medicine. you have amazing contacts with huge people in their fields. this counts for something. so, if you want to move off to town x and go into private practice (which is great, noble, etc..), then there is no need to go to these schools. but if you want to become a leader in research, globle health, policy, these schools will surely help you.

 

[ambaduchi]

i just want to reiterate something kevinz said...

The career one seeks also makes a big difference. I've heard that for someone who opens a clinic or goes into private practice, the name won't mean much. However, for those that choose academic medicine or want to revolutionize medicine or health care, the prestige and connections that come with "top tier" medical schools will make a difference. Funding comes easier and having alumni ties will help. Again, what one does with those opportunities means more than the opportunities available, but there is a difference.

name brand matters a lot when you are dealing with certain aspects the field. academic medicine for one. and people outside medicine for sure, ie if you are thinking of the business side of medicine. and definitely on the policy side...if you want to be involved in think tanks or if you want people (ie people with power) to listen when you go and tell them why the system is broken and what should be done to fix it, name matters. if you have aspirations to work internationally at a policy level (ie not doing relief work) it matters there too.

my point is that it depends on what you're trying to get done in your life. granted, you can (try to) do anything if you work hard enough...but how far you get and how easy it is and how effective you are (in the types of things i mentioned above) will be heavily impacted by your credentials.

it sucks but it's real.

if mota's right, thank goodness people have more sense than to worry about where their practicing doctors got the degrees from bc that's all about skill, humanity, clinical knowledge and bedside manner...and clinical education is the same everywhere in this country and absolutely terrific and wildly successful practicing physicians come from each and every US medical school.

in my mind, it's really for the other stuff that you need to worry about labels.

 

[Law2Doc]

I also think it would help if you want to parlay your degree into leadership positions. My parents work at a top pharm company and they said alot of their VPs have MDs and/or MBAs from Harvard, Yale etc.

Comparing MBAs and MDs is like mixing apples and oranges. An MBA from a top school (rather than a lesser one) is far more important because there is a HUGE range in quality amongst MBAs. There are so many schools that offer these business degrees, tons of seats, online options, part-time and "executive" MBA options, that many big companies basically just count the top 20 or so from the US News list as having any cache, and hire accordingly. (Also bear in mind that many non-ivy schools are top ten in every US News ranking). So yes, for an MBA the school you went to is extremely important, and probably more so than most other things on your resume. I would also point out that an MBA is not a professional degree, it is merely existing career enhancement in most cases, so you might not know if these were folks hired because of an ivy degree, or later went back for one after already working in this or another pharmaceutical company (making the degree something that gets them promoted, not hired).
As for MDs, there are likely so few MD executives at top pharmaceutical companies that it would be impossible to make any assumptions -- there is not going to be any fixed rule. And your sample size is faulty (one company). For all you know this pharmaceutical company is the only one with a lot of ivies.

 

[NonTradMed]

Comparing MBAs and MDs is like mixing apples and oranges. An MBA from a top school (rather than a lesser one) is far more important because there is a HUGE range in quality amongst MBAs. There are so many schools that offer these business degrees, tons of seats, online options, part-time and "executive" MBA options, that many big companies basically just count the top 20 or so from the US News list as having any cache, and hire accordingly. (Also bear in mind that many non-ivy schools are top ten in every US News ranking). So yes, for an MBA the school you went to is extremely important, and probably more so than most other things on your resume. I would also point out that an MBA is not a professional degree, it is merely existing career enhancement in most cases, so you might not know if these were folks hired because of an ivy degree, or later went back for one after already working in this or another pharmaceutical company (making the degree something that gets them promoted, not hired).
As for MDs, there are likely so few MD executives at top pharmaceutical companies that it would be impossible to make any assumptions -- there is not going to be any fixed rule. And your sample size is faulty (one company). For all you know this pharmaceutical company is the only one with a lot of ivies.

True, I only had one company to go on, but I doubt my parents' pharm company's hiring policy is unique. And they do hire quite a lot of MDs in their top ranks. We have a large med school right in town but they are very underrepresented in the top leadership roles.

And I think you answered your own question....people in the business world are very pedigree conscience. They DO look at names for MBA and law---when hiring for MD executives, especially when it's a with potentials to make millions, why wouldn't they also be pedigree conscious there as well? Also, when a job pays so well (possibly more than an avg doc in private practice), why wouldn't there be a lot of competition for it? Big competition, especially when you are comparing people working in academia related fields, means school name can be a factor if two candidates are both viable. Anyway, that is just my opinion, but my parents have worked in research for almost 30 years now, in both academia and corporate, and they certainly find where you attend med school to be important in certain top positions. That isn't to say going to podunk med school won't get you there, but you'll need to show something extra to stand out. Btw, I'm going to a podunk med school so it's like I'm tooting my own horn here. I'll be part of the great unwashed, trying to eke out a living as a normal doc.

 

[Law2Doc]

And I think you answered your own question....people in the business world are very pedigree conscience. They DO look at names for MBA and law---when hiring for MD executives, especially when it's a with potentials to make millions, why wouldn't they also be pedigree conscious there as well?

No its not the same. There are BAD MBA and JD programs. There are not BAD MD programs -- there are only a small number with a very finite number of seats and all have high numerical stats and are quite competitive. Only in medicine does the school act as gatekeeper for the profession. In law, they let the bar do it, and in MBA, the marketplace. Thus the analysis is totally different. Unless you are suggesting that they are ignorant of this (which I suppose is possible).

 

[KAI1927]

No its not the same. There are BAD MBA and JD programs. There are not BAD MD programs -- there are only a small number with a very finite number of seats and all have high numerical stats and are quite competitive. Only in medicine does the school act as gatekeeper for the profession. In law, they let the bar do it, and in MBA, the marketplace. Thus the analysis is totally different. Unless you are suggesting that they are ignorant of this (which I suppose is possible).

Excellent point, this is reflected by the roughly 95% average graduation rate amoung US med schools, compared to a 66% (very rough) law school retention rate after the first semester. Not to say there isn't variability between med schools, but the whole (from "best to worst") spectrum seems significantly smaller compared to the much larger spectrums amoung law schools and MBA programs

 

[Tiki]

Among doctors, medical school does not matter much; residency matters more.


Among the common folk, medical school matters more; it can weigh heavily on the patient's impression of the doctor. In fact, HMOs report the medical school and year of graduation for their doctors.

Not true. Ask a patient in the northeast what they think about UCSF. They'll have no clue that the school even exists, yet it's one of the best schools in the country.

The name of the school probably can help you out with residency, but if you do well in med school and on the boards, you won't need any extra help.

 

[NoSoupforYou13]

No its not the same. There are BAD MBA and JD programs. There are not BAD MD programs -- there are only a small number with a very finite number of seats and all have high numerical stats and are quite competitive. Only in medicine does the school act as gatekeeper for the profession. In law, they let the bar do it, and in MBA, the marketplace. Thus the analysis is totally different. Unless you are suggesting that they are ignorant of this (which I suppose is possible).

You cannot practice medicine if you do not pass the USMLE.

bar exam = USMLE and state specific certification

Not a great analogy.

 

[KAI1927]

You cannot practice medicine if you do not pass the USMLE.

bar exam = USMLE and state specific certification

Not a great analogy.

While what you said was true, I think you'll find that a much higher percentage of med students pass the USMLE's on first try, where as a much lower percentage of all law schools students pass their bar on first try. On the flip side, med schools on average(exeptions granted) are more selective in their admission compared to average law school acceptence rates. Law-2-Doc's statement that med school is the gate keeper for MD., and the bar is the gatekeeper for J.D. still holds water and is an effective analogy.

 

[mtDNA]

I havent started med school yet, but here is my take on this: Your success mostly depends on YOU, but the school you go to may also be important, depending on how high you are reaching. For example, if you are motivated and capable, you can probably get a great residency regardless of what school you go to. HOwever, if you are looking for something really really competitive like plastic surgery, it will certainly help ALOT if you go to a prestigious institution for med school.

 

[Law2Doc]

You cannot practice medicine if you do not pass the USMLE.

bar exam = USMLE and state specific certification

Not a great analogy.

I'm not sure I understand your point. There is far less limitation on the number of seats in law. There is less of a committment to schools to keep their far more numerous matriculants in law school, as evidence by the fairly high attrition rate. Of those who get a JD, about 70% actually pass the bar, which acts as the gate keeper. Med school by contrast has a negligible attrition rate, and a extremely high board pass rate (for US MDs). Clearly the cuts, if any, are being made on admission when going into medicine, and at a later point in law. Thus Perfect analogy -- in medicine the adcoms are the gatekeeper for the profession, while in law it's much easier to get in (extremely easy, at some places) but once you are in, there is a weed out function whereby a hurdle exists for many to ultimately make it to and through the licensing phase. The bar is the gatekeeper in this latter situation.
Which is good, because it would really be bad to finally get into med school, borrow $200k, slough through all this stuff, but never get to practice (which certainly happens to some in law).

 

[Comrade]

recently i've been asking people where their doctors went to med school (when their doctor comes up in conversation) and not ONE person has known. so...ya
-mota

ask someone who is having a coronary bypass or a liver transplant. i promise you, they'll know.

they usually ask either before or after the question, 'have you done this before?'

 

[SuzieQ3417]

ask someone who is having a coronary bypass or a liver transplant. i promise you, they'll know.

they usually ask either before or after the question, 'have you done this before?'

Just because they ask doesn't mean it will necessarily have influence over their decision to undergo a procedure. My dad was recently operated on by a Loyola grad....did he ask where the surgeon went to med school? Sure, but its not like he said "Oh, I don't know about Loyola...let me see if I can find a Harvard grad to do the procedure instead." The fact is, if you are undergoing a surgery you should care less about where the person graduated med school, and more about what their experience is with the particular procedure, and what the outcomes have generally been. That is, I would take a Loyola grad who performs 100 bypasses a year over a Harvard grad that only does 20.