Medical School For Free!

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Mace1370 said:
That sounds like a terrible idea.

Why should other people have to pay for my medical school tuition?
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Why should other people have to pay for your kids to attend public school? And yet that is exactly what happens. The American public recognizes that there is value in funding public education because it facilitates societal literacy. With medical education, the idea would be different. Instead of facilitating societal literacy it would increase the number of physicians entering primary care, which would be highly beneficial for society as a whole.
 
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I think he means free for students who commit to going into primary care. They already do this to an extent at some schools.
 
So if Medical School becomes free... is it going to offer the same high-tech resources and have good looking classrooms?. I come from a country where Medical School is free, and I attended for two years. Yes it was wonderful that I didn't have to pay for medical school, but we didn't have half of the resources and technology that is available here. Of course this was at a third world country. Medical students there have to figure out how to learn how to treat patients because there are no materials in school nor in hospitals to treat them with.
And what would be the impact of this over taxes, and the economy of this country? Also, medical school as expensive as it is now, each medical school around the country recieves around 10 thousand applicants each year, and it is a very competitive process as we all know. Imagine how it would be if medical school was free.
I know nothing about politics, and little about how the goverment system of this country works. I love living in this country and having the opportunity to go to med school here, and I would looove for med school to be free..but I think there are way too many things to consider. I may be mistaken with some things, but anyways: What do toy guys think?
 
I know it sounds really good when you're deciding which loan company to take 200k from, but the reality is that very few, if any, physicians are unable to pay off their loans. I'd only support the public footing the bill if we take after UK where physicians make 150k, none of this 300k+, and everyone sees a doc. Even when someone goes to a public college, they still pay some tuition.
 
yea Muhali3 - this is in regards to primary care. It provides incentives for future physicians to enter primary care will indirectly curb exponential increase in medical costs. As they are the gatekeepers of healthcare system, it increases practicing of preventive medicine, reduces specialty care visits, and saves millions by avoiding expensive procedures/treatments when the illness gets worse.
 
firewall62 said:
Why should other people have to pay for your kids to attend public school? And yet that is exactly what happens. The American public recognizes that there is value in funding public education because it facilitates societal literacy. With medical education, the idea would be different. Instead of facilitating societal literacy it would increase the number of physicians entering primary care, which would be highly beneficial for society as a whole.
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Society would benefit on the whole if we executed the homeless.

Can we use the "benefit of the whole" excuse to get this done too?
 
flakpilot said:
So if Medical School becomes free... is it going to offer the same high-tech resources and have good looking classrooms?.
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No one in their right mind would suggest reducing the quality of medical education to cut costs. The government already pays most of the cost of medical education. The tuition that medical students pay only covers a small portion of the total cost.

If you assume that the average tuition for medical school is $130,000 and that there are 66,390 medical students in the United States, then the amount of tuition paid amounts to 2.2 billion dollars per year. I understand that my analysis isn't perfect, but the actual value would be somewhere in that ball-park. In 2006, the cost of the War in Iraq was nearly 2.0 billion dollars per week.

It is a question of priorities.
 
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Mace1370 said:
Society would benefit on the whole if we executed the homeless.

Can we use the "benefit of the whole" excuse to get this done too?
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That example is ridiculous. I would be interested in seeing some data on the effect that homeless people have on everyone else. Furthermore, executing homeless people would be a terrible violation of human rights that could not possibly be considered as a viable solution to whatever costs homeless people impose on society.
 
Mace1370 said:
Society would benefit on the whole if we executed the homeless.

Can we use the "benefit of the whole" excuse to get this done too?
Click to expand...


WTF? That is just a ridiculous analogy.

And what about alll the premeds out there wanting to help the homeless to show their compassionate side? You're going to screw them over for sure!
 
Society would benefit on the whole if we executed the homeless.

Can we use the "benefit of the whole" excuse to get this done too?
Click to expand...

Ah, forums... so difficult to pick up on sarcasm when there is no audible inflection. Don't worry, Mace. I understand what you were saying. While he may be exaggerating, I whole-heartedly agree with his point. While doctors are needed by society and while medical tuition is mucho expensivo, it is hardly fair to have taxpayers foot the bill for medical tuition (unless, as above poster said, medical care is socialized like the UK's is and physician salaries are much lower). If you have tax dollars going toward medical school, then how about nursing school? People who become architects? Civil engineers? Or just about any profession whatsoever - if you think careers in medicine are the only ones that are essential to our quality of life in America, then... well, then good to go.

Secondly, no one is conscripted into a medical career. One makes a conscious decision every day during the process to incur this debt. Deal with it.
 
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Such a horrible idea. Why not free ice cream?
 
firewall62 said:
Why should other people have to pay for your kids to attend public school? And yet that is exactly what happens. The American public recognizes that there is value in funding public education because it facilitates societal literacy. With medical education, the idea would be different. Instead of facilitating societal literacy it would increase the number of physicians entering primary care, which would be highly beneficial for society as a whole.
Click to expand...
You do know that the weight of your argument is completely lost when you write like you're trying to win the Nobel prize. "society as a whole" - sounds like the conclusion to a middle school essay....

Your equating public education with medical education is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Also, what you said makes no sense; the OP said free, not open to all who wish to attend. The same standards and requirements would still be in place. And how exactly would making med school free help with the issue of primary care? A much-needed salary increase for GP's would do the trick, and is much more rational.
 
All education should be free from kindergarten to Doctorate level!!! The pace of innovation, discovery and economic expansion would be crazy with say tripled the number of scientists, engineers etc etc...
 
Bernoull said:
All education should be free from kindergarten to Doctorate level!!! The pace of innovation, discovery and economic expansion would be crazy with say tripled the number of scientists, engineers etc etc...
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No, there'd be too many lawyers and everyone would get sued.
 
That is a good idea for the lesser paid doctors, i.e. Primary Care, Peds...

Dr.Carson is my hero. You should read his autobiography,it is truly amazing and inspired me to become a doctor.
 
I watched this last night. Free medical school is a great idea, but a more realistic goal is the subsidization of medical school costs. At least to protect the tuition from rising inflation.
 
flakpilot said:
So if Medical School becomes free... is it going to offer the same high-tech resources and have good looking classrooms?. I come from a country where Medical School is free, and I attended for two years. Yes it was wonderful that I didn't have to pay for medical school, but we didn't have half of the resources and technology that is available here. Of course this was at a third world country. Medical students there have to figure out how to learn how to treat patients because there are no materials in school nor in hospitals to treat them with.
And what would be the impact of this over taxes, and the economy of this country? Also, medical school as expensive as it is now, each medical school around the country recieves around 10 thousand applicants each year, and it is a very competitive process as we all know. Imagine how it would be if medical school was free.
I know nothing about politics, and little about how the goverment system of this country works. I love living in this country and having the opportunity to go to med school here, and I would looove for med school to be free..but I think there are way too many things to consider. I may be mistaken with some things, but anyways: What do toy guys think?
Click to expand...

Med school tuition doesnt cover even a fraction of the expense at most medical school. Most medical also get money for government. Look at residency program some takes half a million dollar of government money to train a surgeon.
 
sgtbrushes said:
Ah, forums... so difficult to pick up on sarcasm when there is no audible inflection. Don't worry, Mace. I understand what you were saying. While he may be exaggerating, I whole-heartedly agree with his point. While doctors are needed by society and while medical tuition is mucho expensivo, it is hardly fair to have taxpayers foot the bill for medical tuition (unless, as above poster said, medical care is socialized like the UK's is and physician salaries are much lower). If you have tax dollars going toward medical school, then how about nursing school? People who become architects? Civil engineers? Or just about any profession whatsoever - if you think careers in medicine are the only ones that are essential to our quality of life in America, then... well, then good to go.

Secondly, no one is conscripted into a medical career. One makes a conscious decision every day during the process to incur this debt. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

Chops369 said:
You do know that the weight of your argument is completely lost when you write like you're trying to win the Nobel prize. "society as a whole" - sounds like the conclusion to a middle school essay....

Your equating public education with medical education is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Also, what you said makes no sense; the OP said free, not open to all who wish to attend. The same standards and requirements would still be in place. And how exactly would making med school free help with the issue of primary care? A much-needed salary increase for GP's would do the trick, and is much more rational.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. I am much lazier at typing than you guys are.
 
nityking51 said:
And what about alll the premeds out there wanting to help the homeless to show their compassionate side? You're going to screw them over for sure!
Click to expand...
lol yes, homelessness must exist so the premeds can help to show their compassionate side. XD
 
I don't really understand why a whole thread was made on this clip. Ben Carson suggested an idea on TV, but it was like a suggestion made on the side.
 
Mace1370 said:
Society would benefit on the whole if we executed the homeless.

Can we use the "benefit of the whole" excuse to get this done too?
Click to expand...

This is REALLY extreme, but as a general rule you are correct in (essentially) stating that utilitarianism doesn't necessarily work toward the best outcome or avoid situations of moral importance where you can't make a "morally correct" decision.

As for why this might be a good idea for those committing to primary care: GP salary is (to the extent of my limited pre-med knowledge) primarily such a huge issue in light of the fact that those who choose to go that route can't get out from under a mountain of debt. Whether or not this should be paid for by the public is debatable, but this is an area that law school has far out-performed medical school in. Most law schools have very good debt forgiveness programs for those committing to public service, and some medical schools are starting to follow suit. You don't see a lack of DA's or public defenders do you? It's not for lack of potential debt, because our friends in upholding justice (or trying to sue your pants off) can rack up a ton of debt just like any medical student. On top of that, a primary care physician will still (on average) make a 6-figure salary, whereas a public defender will make roughly half of that. I think these debt forgiveness programs could possibly go a long way to fix the shortage in primary care physicians.
 
sgtbrushes said:
Ah, forums... so difficult to pick up on sarcasm when there is no audible inflection. Don't worry, Mace. I understand what you were saying. While he may be exaggerating, I whole-heartedly agree with his point. While doctors are needed by society and while medical tuition is mucho expensivo, it is hardly fair to have taxpayers foot the bill for medical tuition (unless, as above poster said, medical care is socialized like the UK's is and physician salaries are much lower). If you have tax dollars going toward medical school, then how about nursing school? People who become architects? Civil engineers? Or just about any profession whatsoever - if you think careers in medicine are the only ones that are essential to our quality of life in America, then... well, then good to go.
Click to expand...

Please keep in mind the difference between stating essential to our quality of life in America, and essential to life. The essential purpose of the market is trade in commodity, but in our culture items of necessity (as in necessity to life, not quality of life; quality designating commodity) have been relegated to the market. When inability to compete in the market conflicts with necessity, you get some questions of pretty lofty moral importance. Allocation of resources of this sort aren't necessarily best left to a market system because you're entitled to them (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and all that jazz). I think most would agree here that primary care is pretty essential to an efficient health care system, and that an efficient health care system is essential to the lives of many. I think a lot of people would also agree that the ability of primary care professionals to compete in the market keeps a lot of people from entering the field. Thus, I think subsidizing so aspect of their practice (and their education is probably a good place to interject) isn't such a crazy idea. I will agree however that subsidizing all medical education isn't the greatest idea. More specialized physicians are easily able to compete in the market, and don't currently face the problems primary care physicians do in our health care system (note: this is a descriptive view, and obviously if I were to take this last statement from a normative perspective there would need to be a lot of change).
 
Chops369 said:
You do know that the weight of your argument is completely lost when you write like you're trying to win the Nobel prize. "society as a whole" - sounds like the conclusion to a middle school essay....
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that the phrase "society as a whole" is characteristic of Nobel-prize winning literature (and interestingly, also characteristic of middle school essays). You do know that the weight of your argument is completely lost when you make lowbrow sophomoric generalizations.

Chops369 said:
Your equating public education with medical education is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Also, what you said makes no sense; the OP said free, not open to all who wish to attend. The same standards and requirements would still be in place. And how exactly would making med school free help with the issue of primary care? A much-needed salary increase for GP's would do the trick, and is much more rational.
Click to expand...

I didn't equate public education with medical education. I used public education to illustrate a simple point--that taxpayers fund numerous projects that don't directly benefit them because that's part of living in American society. Unlike you (since you failed to grasp the substance of my argument), sgtbrushes raised a fairly good counter-argument: "If you have tax dollars going toward medical school, then how about nursing school?" I think that is a valid question. Why should taxpayers be funding medical education? Maybe we can ask our legislators since almost the entire cost of medical education is currently being funded by taxpayer dollars. I think that additional subsidization to increase the number of primary care physicians entering the field would be well worth the money. Increasing the salary of primary care physicians sounds like a good idea but would be more complicated than increasing subsidies on medical education.
 
Spiker said:
Med school tuition doesnt cover even a fraction of the expense at most medical school. Most medical also get money for government. Look at residency program some takes half a million dollar of government money to train a surgeon.
Click to expand...

While the government pays to train a surgeon, it is not free or altruistic. The surgeon gets to work 80+ hours (120hrs back in the old days). That's 12/hr for someone with 8 years of higher education. If you ask me, I'd say the government got a good deal since PAs cost 100k/yr and very few hospitals can afford that.
 
spyderracing32 said:
Please keep in mind the difference between stating essential to our quality of life in America, and essential to life. The essential purpose of the market is trade in commodity, but in our culture items of necessity (as in necessity to life, not quality of life; quality designating commodity) have been relegated to the market. When inability to compete in the market conflicts with necessity, you get some questions of pretty lofty moral importance. Allocation of resources of this sort aren't necessarily best left to a market system because you're entitled to them (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and all that jazz). I think most would agree here that primary care is pretty essential to an efficient health care system, and that an efficient health care system is essential to the lives of many. I think a lot of people would also agree that the ability of primary care professionals to compete in the market keeps a lot of people from entering the field. Thus, I think subsidizing so aspect of their practice (and their education is probably a good place to interject) isn't such a crazy idea. I will agree however that subsidizing all medical education isn't the greatest idea. More specialized physicians are easily able to compete in the market, and don't currently face the problems primary care physicians do in our health care system (note: this is a descriptive view, and obviously if I were to take this last statement from a normative perspective there would need to be a lot of change).
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Having a "right to life" means that your life cannot be taken from you without due process. It doesn't mean that you have the right to be taken care of or saved if you are sick or dying.
 
long said:
Having a "right to life" means that your life cannot be taken from you without due process. It doesn't mean that you have the right to be taken care of or saved if you are sick or dying.
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Sure, as a correlate to the due process clause. The constitution is not some stringently defined rule book though, and it's open to interpretation (hence law students study case books because the law is guided by previously set precedents and not books about "the way it is"). Maybe you don't have the right to be treated if you're sick but not dying, but if you're dying you sure aught to (and this is reflected in queuing for treatment in ERs based on acuteness of the patients case).

And please, the point isn't that I am or am not a constitutional scholar (or that you are, and if so more power to ya, glad you could imbue us with your knowledge), but if you want to question the premise that people who are dying don't have the right to some kind of care if it's available, you have some questions to answer.
 
Mace1370 said:
That sounds like a terrible idea.

Why should other people have to pay for my medical school tuition?
Click to expand...

Erm...

Because you'll be the one who's making them better when they're sick?
 
Tin Man said:
Erm...

Because you'll be the one who's making them better when they're sick?
Click to expand...

Erm...

The plumber unplugs your pipes when they get clogged, do you want to pay for a plumber's education?
 
I have a man crush on Ben Carson.
 
Medical school becomes free --> physician salaries go down --> the quality of people applying to medical school goes down --> health care as a whole suffers. Sounds like a stupid idea.
 
NoMoreAMCAS said:
Medical school becomes free --> physician salaries go down --> the quality of people applying to medical school goes down --> health care as a whole suffers. Sounds like a stupid idea.
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Medical school becomes free --> Demand for medical education increases but supply is stagnant because of AMA regulations and extreme inelasticity of medical education supply --> Physician salaries increase --> quality of people applying to medical school increases --> healthcare as a whole prospers, but overall there will be an increase in deadweight loss of consumer/producer surplus from the increase in taxes to offset the tuition costs of med school.

Yay for economics.
 
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