Medical student expelled

[2021Doctor]

Not sure if original post had errors

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[DrStephenStrange]

That's in Canada. What did he expect?

 

[littlecow]

OP, it just sounds like you're lying unless you show us all of the actual posts. A lot can be said in "a few posts."

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

OP, it just sounds like you're lying unless you show us all of the actual posts. A lot can be said in "a few posts."

In his posts he compared abortion to the Holocaust. Probably wasn’t just over his being pro-life.

 

[rtn1]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

 

[JP2740]

Get the **** off social media...

 

[Deltasidearm]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

Although my policy beliefs do not align with those, I must say that is a very simpleminded way to view complex issues. I would encourage you to educate yourself with an open mind to see the actual arguments of your opposing views. I don't believe anyone's personal beliefs, provided they are not harming someone else and are respectful to others, should be used for or against them, and I value the diversity of differing and opposing views to learn from and accept others (which, by the way, is extremely important for health professionals and is a skill that needs to be cultivated in medical school).

For any ethical dilemma, if you do not comprehend the pros/cons of both sides of a conversation then you cannot possibly understand the issue in its entirety and you cannot expect to have a genuine conversation or debate about it. You certainly do not have to agree with others but do not be blinded by your own biases either.

 

[Tenk]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

How exactly is pro-life the same as pro-death?

 

[Cornfed101]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

I dream of a world where you are never an adcom member at a med school

 

[rtn1]

I dream of a world where you are never an adcom member at a med school

jokes on you, I already am

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

jokes on you, I already am

That's a damn shame considering you are the epitome of intolerance which you claim to abhor.

 

[Deltasidearm]

jokes on you, I already am

Fat chance, considering you applied two cycles ago.

 

[rtn1]

That's a damn shame considering you are the epitome of intolerance which you claim to abhor.

"You are intolerant for refusing to accept others' intolerance" - my favorite argument

Fat chance, considering you applied two cycles ago.

You know students can be on adcoms right?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

"You are intolerant for refusing to accept others' intolerance" - my favorite argument



You know students can be on adcoms right?

Yes because its well known that shunning people with different beliefs works so well to change minds.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"You are intolerant for refusing to accept others' intolerance" - my favorite argument



You know students can be on adcoms right?

Thank God we don’t go to the same school. You are the epitome of hypocritical intolerance.

Also how is being pro-life the same as being pro-death? I’d love to see the mental gymnastics that go into that.

 

[canarywing]

I want to see the posts. I'm assuming it's more complicated than being expelled for "a few pro-life and pro-gun posts". I have a feeling that these posts must have been quite something.

Also, this happened a year ago. Why is it just coming up now?

 

[Dr.K124]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

I dream of a world where the internet could screen out posts for things like stupidity, idiocy, and intolerance -- all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being "anti-intellectual" and in direct opposition to the purpose of medical school and medicine itself.

Alas, here you are posting.

 

[crossled]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

Thats discriminatory and extremely intolerant. I am pro life, I shouldnt have to be excluded from being accepted into medical school because of my beliefs and convictions.

 

[Goro]

Rafael Zaki is a Coptic Christian, whose parents emigrated with him from Egypt to escape systemic oppression of their religious beliefs, and breathe the default oxygen of freedom. Both parents have made a great success in the field of medicine and their son was poised to follow suit via the University of Manitoba's Max Rady College of Medicine (class of 2022)

Zaki's troubles began in Feb. 2019, when 18 anonymous complaints were filed against him, citing a few pro-life and pro-gun rights posts (the former a long essay he had written for his Sunday School) on his Facebook page. The anonymous complainants said the posts made them feel "unsafe." An investigation was launched, which led directly to a remediation process, during which Zaki was summoned to seven meetings with Dr. Ira Ripstein, the Max Rady College of Medicine associate dean for undergraduate medical education.

These meetings produced ten (!) written apologies by Zaki, urged on him by Dr. Ripstein as a way of avoiding disciplinary action— five to his fellow students and five to the faculty— for having caused offense through statement of his opinions. He pulled them from Facebook within 18 hours of the allegations.

According to Dr. Ripstein, the apologies were insufficiently remorseful and sincere, as they did not include testimony to a change in his beliefs. Indeed, they did not contain evidence of a change in his beliefs, because Zaki had not experienced a change in his beliefs. He continues to believe in the right to own arms, and he continues to believe abortion is a moral crime.
He was technically expelled from the College on Aug. 30, 2019 on grounds of "Student Non-Academic Misconduct and Concerning Behaviour Procedure."

Medical student expelled for refusing to change his personal beliefs

It is in totalitarian regimes, in which every aspect of life, including your private thoughts, is considered political, that they demand your very soul. And that is what has happened here.

thepostmillennial.com

Consider the source. The website has a distinct right wing lean. Ditto the following and the text describing the case is nearly identical.

Medical student expelled for pro-life, pro-gun views. Court refuses to reinstate him. | The College Fix

Chased out of Middle East for ‘non-approved beliefs,’ and now Canada?

www.thecollegefix.com

I do mind you all to consider the iceberg phenomenon (which we see on display a lot in the General Residency forum). I suspect that there is a lot more that these websites are not telling you about the student's background. Med schools need a lot more to dismiss a student than just conservative views.

 

[Goro]

I dream of a world where the internet could screen out posts for things like stupidity, idiocy, and intolerance -- all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being "anti-intellectual" and in direct opposition to the purpose of medical school and medicine itself.

Alas, here you are posting trolling

FTFY

 

[deleted314957]

jokes on you, I already am

B.S.

 

[Tangerine123]

jokes on you, I already am

People like you are the problem.

There is a huge problem with this left vs right / red vs blue. Neither side wants to listen to the other, they are not open to dialogue and it is a horrible witch hunt.

I consider myself really liberal (pro-choice etc) and right now i'm trying to branch into non medical fields. Reading about sociology, philosophy, ethics and history has broadened my field of view and changed some of my stances (now more conservative on certain topics).

 

[rtn1]

Everyone seems to be mad so this is the last thing I'll add to this conversation. I'll use pro-lifers here as an example but you can apply the same argument to those who are against gun regulation. Medicine is a field dedicated to preserving the health of individuals and the population. Those who seek to outlaw abortion must admit how doing so would cause irreparable medical and personal damage to millions of women. How hypocritical is it to say you want to pursue a career devoted to provide medical care for others while also supporting the establishment of laws that would restrict healthcare services and create worse health outcomes?

A lot of you upthread seem to be likening this to a simple disagreement over what you believe and what I believe and how we should all respect one another regardless of what positions we hold. I firmly disagree. There are some beliefs that are so destructive to society and humanity that they deserve no acknowledgement, only complete refutation and extinguishment. I hope I wouldn't have to convince any of you that phrenology, race science, or a belief that vaccines cause autism have no place in medicine. Seeking to outlaw abortion falls squarely in this bucket as well.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Everyone seems to be mad so this is the last thing I'll add to this conversation. I'll use pro-lifers here as an example but you can apply the same argument to those who are against gun regulation. Medicine is a field dedicated to preserving the health of individuals and the population. Those who seek to outlaw abortion must admit how doing so would cause irreparable medical and personal damage to millions of women. How hypocritical is it to say you want to pursue a career devoted to provide medical care for others while also supporting the establishment of laws that would restrict healthcare services and create worse health outcomes?

A lot of you upthread seem to be likening this to a simple disagreement over what you believe and what I believe and how we should all respect one another regardless of what positions we hold. I firmly disagree. There are some beliefs that are so destructive to society and humanity that they deserve no acknowledgement, only complete refutation and extinguishment. I hope I wouldn't have to convince any of you that phrenology, race science, or a belief that vaccines cause autism have no place in medicine. Seeking to outlaw abortion falls squarely in this bucket as well.

Lol.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Agonizing over commenting on this thread, as it's probably going to devolve into insults and name calling shortly.

Regarding the actual OP story, no medical student should be kicked out of medical school for being pro-life or pro-gun. Same for students who are pro-choice or pro-gun-control. You can be a good physician either way. But it does depend on how you express those views -- if you express them in a professional manner, discuss the issue constructively, and respect others opinions then there's no issue. If you express your views using inflammatory and defamatory language, calls for violence, etc -- then that's the problem and not the views. And I think that gets lost in the hyperpartisan world we now live in. The posted article is from a right-leaning site, and even there it's mentioned that the student compared those who support abortion to the Holocaust -- and that type of language has no place in medicine. If you can't respect others for their viewpoints, that's a huge problem.

Which brings us to the @rtn1 post above. This is the same problem, just on the other side of the political spectrum (and certainly not quite as inflammatory). Being pro-life does not fit into the same bucket as those other things you mentioned -- which are all pseudoscience or disproven. Believing that life begins at conception and that terminating a pregnancy is an ethically problematic issue are very reasonable beliefs. I don't happen to hold those beliefs, but I support those that do. Whether society should allow termination of pregnancy is a very ethically complicated problem, and it's unlikely we will ever all agree. I personally feel that it should be up to each person to decide for themselves, and those that find it ethically unacceptable should respect these differences -- but I understand that if those ethical beliefs are strong enough, people cannot just "stand by". It's a very complicated and difficult issue, and your black-and-white representation of the situation only creates more anger and conflict. Many physicians are pro-life, and that doesn't stop them from being excellent physicians.

 

[Med Ed]

Rafael Zaki is a Coptic Christian, whose parents emigrated with him from Egypt to escape systemic oppression of their religious beliefs, and breathe the default oxygen of freedom. Both parents have made a great success in the field of medicine and their son was poised to follow suit via the University of Manitoba's Max Rady College of Medicine (class of 2022)

Zaki's troubles began in Feb. 2019, when 18 anonymous complaints were filed against him, citing a few pro-life and pro-gun rights posts (the former a long essay he had written for his Sunday School) on his Facebook page. The anonymous complainants said the posts made them feel "unsafe." An investigation was launched, which led directly to a remediation process, during which Zaki was summoned to seven meetings with Dr. Ira Ripstein, the Max Rady College of Medicine associate dean for undergraduate medical education.

These meetings produced ten (!) written apologies by Zaki, urged on him by Dr. Ripstein as a way of avoiding disciplinary action— five to his fellow students and five to the faculty— for having caused offense through statement of his opinions. He pulled them from Facebook within 18 hours of the allegations.

According to Dr. Ripstein, the apologies were insufficiently remorseful and sincere, as they did not include testimony to a change in his beliefs. Indeed, they did not contain evidence of a change in his beliefs, because Zaki had not experienced a change in his beliefs. He continues to believe in the right to own arms, and he continues to believe abortion is a moral crime.
He was technically expelled from the College on Aug. 30, 2019 on grounds of "Student Non-Academic Misconduct and Concerning Behaviour Procedure."

Medical student expelled for refusing to change his personal beliefs

It is in totalitarian regimes, in which every aspect of life, including your private thoughts, is considered political, that they demand your very soul. And that is what has happened here.

thepostmillennial.com

This is a behavior problem, not a belief problem. It's disingenuous to conflate the two.

 

[Yhwach]

Never heard of this school

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Never heard of this school

It’s in Canada.

 

[Lawpy]

I dream of a world where medical schools could screen out applicants for things like being pro-life, pro-gun, anti-universal health care, etc — all of these beliefs are functionally the same as being “pro-death” and in direct opposition to the purpose of a medical school and medicine itself

Everyone seems to be mad so this is the last thing I'll add to this conversation. I'll use pro-lifers here as an example but you can apply the same argument to those who are against gun regulation. Medicine is a field dedicated to preserving the health of individuals and the population. Those who seek to outlaw abortion must admit how doing so would cause irreparable medical and personal damage to millions of women. How hypocritical is it to say you want to pursue a career devoted to provide medical care for others while also supporting the establishment of laws that would restrict healthcare services and create worse health outcomes?

A lot of you upthread seem to be likening this to a simple disagreement over what you believe and what I believe and how we should all respect one another regardless of what positions we hold. I firmly disagree. There are some beliefs that are so destructive to society and humanity that they deserve no acknowledgement, only complete refutation and extinguishment. I hope I wouldn't have to convince any of you that phrenology, race science, or a belief that vaccines cause autism have no place in medicine. Seeking to outlaw abortion falls squarely in this bucket as well.

Dude i'm pro choice too but these posts are so ridiculous that i think you're trolling.

 

[GoSpursGo]

As was eminently predictable based on how click-baity this article is, this discussion has devolved into insults and arguments on things that really have nothing to do with medical school. Accordingly, this thread is being closed.