Medical student graduates at age 61

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Here's some motivation. This article describes in depth this student's experiences in medical school and how many times people thought he was a professor or an attending and not a student. :)

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/06/21/prsb0621.htm

61-year-old graduates medical school
Clarence Nicodemus, DO, PhD, is ready to take his interest in spine research to the next level.
By Myrle Croasdale, AMNews staff. June 12, 2004.

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine just graduated the oldest medical student in its history: Clarence Nicodemus, DO, PhD, 61.

Like many MSUCOM graduates, Dr. Nicodemus, known as Nic to his colleagues and friends, is starting an osteopathic general internship this month. Next year, he will do a residency in neuromusculoskeletal medicine, the manual manipulation of the body.

His age put him in the category of nontraditional medical student, but Dr. Nicodemus is a nontraditionalist in other ways as well.

Retirement is not on his agenda. He started medical school at 57, an age when most people are either content in a well-established career or simply doing time until they can quit working.

"My definition of retirement is doing what you want to do, and this is what I want to do," Dr. Nicodemus said.

He's aiming for a clinical practice doing nonsurgical treatment of back pain, combined with research and teaching.

"That's the payback I want to give to my profession," Dr. Nicodemus said. "I'm really grateful for having been given this opportunity. In return I want to step up to the plate and immediately do research on ways treatments in the area of osteopathic manipulation work."

This passion grew out of his former career as a biomechanical engineer. As director of spine research at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, he spent seven years working alongside orthopedic surgeons, exploring how the spine functions and developing instruments to repair spine damage. Then he became interested in finding nonsurgical ways to treat back pain.

"As an engineer, there was not much I could do," he said, "and the surgeons weren't interested in that [nonsurgical treatments]. They were interested in what surgery does."

So he decided he'd get his own medical degree.

He was presenting research results at an American Back Society conference when he struck up a conversation with the society's president, who was also a former associate dean at MSUCOM. Dr. Nicodemus shared that he was interested in osteopathic manipulation and experienced in biomechanics and research. He also had trained as a massage therapist to learn about manual manipulation.

Encouraged by his MSUCOM contact, he applied to the university and was accepted.

He also applied to roughly 40 other medical schools and was rejected by each one.

Kathie Schafer, director of admissions at MSUCOM, said the school would have seriously considered Dr. Nicodemus, even if he hadn't been referred by a former MSUCOM administrator.

"Nic has some very special qualifications," Schafer said. "He had done spine mechanics research for years. "

Once accepted to MSUCOM, Dr. Nicodemus had to decide whether to leave his six-figure job and four adult children living in Houston and Las Vegas, uproot his wife and move to a different part of the county.

Wilma Wagner, his wife of 16 years, said leaving children and grandchildren was hard, but worth it.

"It's been an exciting thing to watch him unfold," she said. "He's like a kid with a new knapsack going to school. The energy he's put into this is phenomenal."

In Michigan she has joined several university and community groups, while Dr. Nicodemus is consumed with his medical training. She also has completed 250 hours of field work as part of applying to become a Unity minister.

"We've just accepted that [having a social life] is not part of who we are right now. It's up to me to create my own environment. It's easier on him if he knows I'm taking care of myself."

They also made major changes in their financial status. They paid for his first two years of tuition and took out loans for the last two years.

"When you've been making a good living, and all of a sudden you're not making that living and are paying out, that part is scary," she said.

Another risk is the possibility of Dr. Nicodemus becoming ill and not being able to complete his training or replenish their savings through medical practice.

Dr. Nicodemus is aware of the sacrifices his wife has made. "I was very fortunate that my wife saw it as an adventure," he said. "I would have never been able to do this otherwise "

Once in school, Dr. Nicodemus found being a medical student in his late 50s brought its own difficulties.

"The first semester was a challenge," Dr. Nicodemus said. "There are a lot of fundamental medical school subjects, anatomy, biochemistry and genetics, that draw heavily on the presumption that you've just come out of school. My biochemistry was done 35 years earlier."

He found that he had to read material three times to retain it, and with the massive amount of information to learn, he had to focus on only the most important to keep pace.

Not the professor
Another challenge of sorts was making sure that fellow students, professors, patients and attending physicians understood who he was, or more important, who he was not.

"The initial reaction is always one of curiosity and surprise when they find out that the gray-headed, bearded guy sitting in the front row is actually a student and not a professor sitting in," he said.

He took particular care in clinical settings. "If I were to be with an attending physician who is younger and who is really ego-invested and we go into see patients, I make it clear to him or her and to who I'm with as to what my status is, so there's no confusion at the beginning."

Classmate Ben Schnurr, DO, said Dr. Nicodemus' age was not an issue with his fellow students.

"He was a father figure to those who wanted him to be and a peer to others," Dr. Schnurr said. "He met you where you were at. He's a very warm person, willing to give of himself and make the extra effort to help out other people."

While other students told horror stories of running into tyrannical physicians, Dr. Nicodemus didn't experience that. He guessed that might have been because of his age and the effort he made to make clear he was a student and was there to learn. "You'd hear, 'Doctor So-and-so is a curmudgeon. He'll give a real tongue-lashing at surgery.' But I found there was always a great deal of respect for where I was coming from," he said. "My experience was a wonderful one."

Mark Gugel, DO, associate professor in osteopathic manipulative medicine at MSUCOM, was one of the younger attending physicians Dr. Nicodemus trained under. He was impressed by Dr. Nicodemus' enthusiasm for manipulative medicine, an enthusiasm patients responded to.

"Nic is confident and has a great rapport with patients," Dr. Gugel said. "He's very good at putting people at ease."

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"Hey everybody!!"

"Hey, Doctor Nick!!"

;)
 
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I feel so young....:D
 
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This article is inspiring......
 
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Necro-bump alert! When you bump something from over a decade ago, please say you are doing so so people don't waste tine repondung to a defunct post, (like i did below) thanks.


I love that the take-home message is it's never too late. But, to play devils advocate, I do question what this guy was going to do in four years after his training (age 65). He apparently had student loans and no retirement savings. that's a position I can fathom at 50, but 65 is starting to push it. Who would hire him at that age at a time when older partners are typically seeking underlings they can exploit with long hours and lots of night call? Does he have a decade of practice still left in him? Are manipulations something you can still do as a frail old man or would he have been better off picking psych or something else similar you can do from a chair? So many questions, such under-investigative journalism.

If anyone can find out what the guy has been doing the last ten years that might be more enlightening.
 
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Necro-bump alert! When you bump something from over a decade ago, please say you are doing so so people don't waste tine repondung to a defunct post, (like i did below) thanks.

I love that the take-home message is it's never too late. But, to play devils advocate, I do question what this guy was going to do in four years after his training (age 65). He apparently had student loans and no retirement savings. that's a position I can fathom at 50, but 65 is starting to push it. Who would hire him at that age at a time when older partners are typically seeking underlings they can exploit with long hours and lots of night call? Does he have a decade of practice still left in him? Are manipulations something you can still do as a frail old man or would he have been better off picking psych or something else similar you can do from a chair? So many questions, such under-investigative journalism.

If anyone can find out what the guy has been doing the last ten years that might be more enlightening.

Looks like he did a OMM residency at MSU. He is now in California doing spine manipulations...

www.montereyclinic.com/about-dr.-nicodemus.html
 
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I still don't understand why people ALWAYS assume older people are ALWAYS frail.

I'm assuming your parents/grandparents didn't age well. However, anyone with the stamina to make it through med school after age say 40, is VERY likely is good shape too.

Signed, a person with a mother in GREAT shape that looks 30 years younger than she is.
 
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Shoot my mom got her doctorate in education at 55 and became a college president till 78
 
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Hate to rain on this parade, but admitting a 57 year old is such a waste of resources.

The other 40 schools that rejected him got it right. Why invest resources in a 57 year old when there are thousands of much younger applicants who have the potential to be in practice for many more years down the road?
 
Hate to rain on this parade, but admitting a 57 year old is such a waste of resources.

The other 40 schools that rejected him got it right. Why invest resources in a 57 year old when there are thousands of much younger applicants who have the potential to be in practice for many more years down the road?
Because it isn't about society, it's about the individual. If he wants to be a doctor and they believe he is capable and stands above the younger applicants, then he should have a shot. He might get a solid 15-20 years of practice if he's in good shape.

If all that mattered was the quantity of practice, women (who, statistically, practice part time far more often than men) and anyone over the age of 22 should never be admitted. Thankfully, schools take into account the fulfillment of not just society, but the individual seeking to attend medical school as well.
 
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My class had a person who started in their late 40s and had no intention of ever practicing clinical medicine. We also had 2 that went back to wall street.
Did they waste their spots at a very competitive medical school, or did they earn it fairly and do whatever they wanted with their lives? I say the latter.
 
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61 isn't necessarily frail, and I don't intend to quit just because I turn 65.

I plan to never retire. I can't conceive of it. I've had 8 weeks off between jobs and I'm already a bit stir crazy. In that time, I've cleaned everything, finished a college degree, bought a second car, learned to drive, taken care of a sick loved one, started packing to move to med school (for this coming July!) and sold half my basement full of crap on eBay. I'm BORED. If I had to look forward to years of not working, I reckon I'd make everyone around me insane until I dropped over cold.

So, although I am older, I expect my career will probably be nearly as long as those of my classmates who are planning to hang up their white coats at 65. I will stop when I physically and mentally can't do it anymore, and then I will do something else. It runs in the family. My mum is on her 4th career, now as an artist, having previously been a teacher, a computer scientist, and a farmer.
 
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Because it isn't about society, it's about the individual. If he wants to be a doctor and they believe he is capable and stands above the younger applicants, then he should have a shot. He might get a solid 15-20 years of practice if he's in good shape.

If all that mattered was the quantity of practice, women (who, statistically, practice part time far more often than men) and anyone over the age of 22 should never be admitted. Thankfully, schools take into account the fulfillment of not just society, but the individual seeking to attend medical school as well.


Yup. The idea of fulfillment to society can vary greatly and is not necessarily dependent upon time. To make an argument that by sheer numbers--encounters in practice w/ patients being the measuring stick, well wouldn't this give support to the notion of having more mid-level providers churned out to treat the sheer numbers/masses of people? So, wow. There has to be much more to admission than that. At the end of the day, if the person is up to the task, then good for them. Otherwise, it's age discrimination to disregard them or their application or placement in MS. You can't have it both ways with anti-discrimination. It just doesn't work.
 
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61 isn't necessarily frail, and I don't intend to quit just because I turn 65.

I plan to never retire. I can't conceive of it. I've had 8 weeks off between jobs and I'm already a bit stir crazy. In that time, I've cleaned everything, finished a college degree, bought a second car, learned to drive, taken care of a sick loved one, started packing to move to med school (for this coming July!) and sold half my basement full of crap on eBay. I'm BORED. If I had to look forward to years of not working, I reckon I'd make everyone around me insane until I dropped over cold.

So, although I am older, I expect my career will probably be nearly as long as those of my classmates who are planning to hang up their white coats at 65. I will stop when I physically and mentally can't do it anymore, and then I will do something else. It runs in the family. My mum is on her 4th career, now as an artist, having previously been a teacher, a computer scientist, and a farmer.

True. Be good to hit the databases to see what has been done on increased aging and illness associated with retirement. It's purely anecdotal on my end, but I have seen a number of folks go down the tubes after retirement; whereas those that kept working or that had a productive plan and worked that plan seemed to do quite well. Heck, I have even seen farmers that refuse to retire outlive a lot of their peers. I've wondered about depression increasing after retirement. Depression occurs in the elderly more than some folks know. Depression and immune system function--not good together.
 
Just so, @jl lin .

I have seen the same thing anecdotally. I've known several people who either keeled over shortly after retirement, or else whose health steeply declined. And others who tanked, but then recovered upon taking up a part-time job or engrossing hobby. No one I know who has taken up a life of full time rest and relaxation has benefitted from it in the least. Work is good for mind, body, and spirit, and it helps people stay young and connected.
 
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I still don't understand why people ALWAYS assume older people are ALWAYS frail...

first, I stated up front I was playing devils advocate. Second, being frail was like my fourth, and least important, issue here -- the notion of wiping out ones retirement funds and taking on student loans to begin a career at 65 was what was bothering me most about this story, and the issue I listed first. Second, I correctly assumed he wouldn't find an employer at that age -- and he didn't -- it appears he joined forces with a reverend to open his own practice (more debt involved to do this, I'm sure), complete with offering certain "spiritual health services," clearly a cash business because no insurance company is going to cover this. (Whether using his medical degree to validate nd charge for these kind of services is acceptable is a separate debate.) it was only after these issues that I listed longevity of career and then the notion that a guy in his 70s might not be able to get much torque to manipulate a spine.

I have no real conceptual problem with a med school taking a much older applicant, as at this point I've known dozens of younger people who have dropped out of med school and residency for various reasons who won't put together the length of career a guy like this already attained. And once we go down the route of deciding who is going to be able to practice how long, you have to go down that slippery slope of suggesting maybe the young guy with health issues, the smoker, the guy who rides motercycles, shouldn't get to be a doctor either, and so on. My main issue was if you wipe out your retirement and take on student debt at 65, that's a whole different ballgame. The 20 year old who drops out or switches to business has a better window to pay off his debt and sock away for retirement even if he bails on this career. So if debt and retirement funds are at issue it's apples and oranges.
 
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Hate to rain on this parade, but admitting a 57 year old is such a waste of resources.

The other 40 schools that rejected him got it right. Why invest resources in a 57 year old when there are thousands of much younger applicants who have the potential to be in practice for many more years down the road?
^which is the problem with believing society as a group owns the resources
 
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If you're the type of person who needs a job to separate you from free time or dying. Medicine should do the trick. There's always something more you can do or know for this or that patient. That's fine. But if you're an older premed as well then also realize you might also be the sort of person who will extrapolate any story to fit your purpose of being older and working towards this one job you want. Because doing nothing or whatever you feel like it is f'n insane.

On the other hand, perhaps Nosognosia is overrated.
 
Interesting. Good to see he is milking out a career, albeit a new age touchy feely one. I will withhold my views on a physician partnering with a reverend to provide "spiritual healing" as a medical service...

I am pretty sure that's his wife who is the spiritual healer...
 
first, I stated up front I was playing devils advocate. Second, being frail was like my fourth, and least important, issue here -- the notion of wiping out ones retirement funds and taking on student loans to begin a career at 65 was what was bothering me most about this story, and the issue I listed first. Second, I correctly assumed he wouldn't find an employer at that age -- and he didn't -- it appears he joined forces with a reverend to open his own practice (more debt involved to do this, I'm sure), complete with offering certain "spiritual health services," clearly a cash business because no insurance company is going to cover this. (Whether using his medical degree to validate nd charge for these kind of services is acceptable is a separate debate.) it was only after these issues that I listed longevity of career and then the notion that a guy in his 70s might not be able to get much torque to manipulate a spine.

I have no real conceptual problem with a med school taking a much older applicant, as at this point I've known dozens of younger people who have dropped out of med school and residency for various reasons who won't put together the length of career a guy like this already attained. And once we go down the route of deciding who is going to be able to practice how long, you have to go down that slippery slope of suggesting maybe the young guy with health issues, the smoker, the guy who rides motercycles, shouldn't get to be a doctor either, and so on. My main issue was if you wipe out your retirement and take on student debt at 65, that's a whole different ballgame. The 20 year old who drops out or switches to business has a better window to pay off his debt and sock away for retirement even if he bails on this career. So if debt and retirement funds are at issue it's apples and oranges.


I found this online:

"Dr. Nicodemus, who was making a six-figure salary as an engineering professor in Texas, had some savings but not enough to cover four years of medical school. He was able to work part time as a faculty member in MSU’s college of engineering while he attended med school and, as a result, paid in-state rather than out-of-state tuition and earned a stipend. Still, he needed loans." http://thedo.osteopathic.org/2013/0...t-leverage-life-experience-to-achieve-dreams/

Who knows what his full financial picture looks like. It could be a lot better than many here. The only difference in the discussion is that his name is not anonymous and neither IS HIS AGE. That alone is problematic. So we are not trusting individuals to make decisions about their own lives and finances. No one is challenging any trad or non-trad here in regard to what we might suppose about their lives or financial situation. We don't know each individual set of circumstances, financially or otherwise. So to discriminate against the person on age, not knowing all the particulars of the individual's life, is unfair and very problematic in terms of equal rights and other issues. We can only assume based on what we THINK we can quantify--lifespan stats and so forth. African-Americans are at higher risk for hypertension, which could affect their ability to stay in practice as long as Caucasians on average. Should they be discriminated against--not considered for med school, b/c of such things?

We can't assume for an individual based on what we THINK we can generally quantify about their personal lives.
 
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^which is the problem with believing society as a group owns the resources

It's not about who owns resources. It's about the fact that this guy who graduates at 61 cannot help as many patients as a younger graduate would over the course of their career. It makes for a great story, but it isn't pragmatic in any way.
 
It's not about who owns resources. It's about the fact that this guy who graduates at 61 cannot help as many patients as a younger graduate would over the course of their career. It makes for a great story, but it isn't pragmatic in any way.

This sounds like the EXACT same argument that was made 40 or so years ago for why women shouldn't enter medicine.

Unfortunately, you'll be a "frail" 60+ year old when you realize the fallacy of your statement.
 
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This sounds like the EXACT same argument that was made 40 or so years ago for why women shouldn't enter medicine.

Unfortunately, you'll be a "frail" 60+ year old when you realize the fallacy of your statement.

The argument for why women shouldn't enter medicine had nothing to do with how long they would live...

I didn't say anything about being "frail". A 25 year old grad can probably work for 40 years as a doc. The 61 year old grad won't get anywhere near 40. People die, frail or not. 57 year olds have less life to live than 21 years olds is not really a fallacy.
 
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57 year olds have less life to live than 21 years olds is not really a fallacy.

I thought G_d made those decisions??

While you're making definitive statements, I'd REALLY like the power ball lottery numbers for the next drawing.:)

I've got a lot more questions I'd like answers to, so I'll PM you those later.;)
 
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Um. The average 57-year-old has fewer years to live than the average 21-year-old. If God indeed makes the decision when people die, s/he's got a pretty good pattern going. This is simple statistics, and has nothing to do with lottery numbers.
 
^ Missed the points which addressed these things already. I'm sorry; your argument is invalid.
 
Not really. I'm not commenting on the topic of the thread.

Somebody noted that old people die before young people, and then TheTao denied this, and was kind of sarcastic about it. As someone who values statistics and reasoning, I wanted to correct him/her. No comment on how or if this should play a role in med school admissions, or if age is an indicator of physical ability. But to deny that old people generally die before young people is kinda ridiculous.
 
Oh and interestingly enough, I'd like to hear or read where schools articulate/d these positions. They wouldn't. Know why? They would be demonstrating an EEOC violation. So the poor student of, shall we say, whatever is considered "a less than desirable age," would have to have his/her attorneys go through everything that could be considered pretext; b/c they will never admit that they used reasoning that violates EEOC principles.
 
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And as I stated, statistically speaking, people of AF-Am descent develop high blood pressure at younger ages than other groups in the U.S. Also, Af-Ams are more likely to develop complications associated with high blood pressure. Should these folks get denied admission to medical school b/c of these statistics? I mean, they may well be less likely to live as long as those of other groups. See, no matter which way you cut it, the reasoning leads to violating the equal rights principles. This goes for medical school as well as GME.

If you use this line of reasoning for one group, then you could use it for another. It's quite problematic.
 
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Um. The average 57-year-old has fewer years to live than the average 21-year-old...

Except that you want to stop the analysis there. We don't have to only look at age "on average". Insurance companies don't. And frankly the length one person is expected to live actually changes once he reaches 50, 60 etc in good health. Actuarial science is a Complicated thing. The "average" male may live to 75, but the average person who already made it to 60 in good health may be expected to live past 85. So the "average" changes as you pass certain milestones, and move into different groups. That's why insurance premiums are not linear, and why they have you fill out long questionnaires and get a physical-- The risks and life expectancies are different for all of us and there really are much better ways to determine them without playing the "on average" game.

And the 20 year old who is an obese smoker with hypertension and diabetes might not be expected to reach 65. Or the guy who rides motorcycles in a state that doesn't have a helmet law. and so on. Which is part of the reason you don't want to go down the "useful career years" analysis. The guy who bails out of med school or residency is by far the worst person to have received a med school seat. At this point I've seen several dozen of them. And they've ALL been in their 20s. Why? Because older people who have already seen the other side of the fence don't have that "maybe the grass is greener" angst/mentality. They aren't till deciding what thy want to do for the next forty years, aren't worried about dating and family, the biggest things that make people drop out. You never see a 50 year old med student crying on the phone in the library because his SO is in school three states away. So the 20 year old who drops out at 25 is worse than as the 65 year old who only gets to practice for a dozen year. And as mentioned, I've known MANY of the former. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that on average, a 25 year old is far more likely to bail on his new found medical career than the much older nontrad. And then there's the matter of retirement. Young doctors may retire. Nontrads rarely do. You generally have to pry the stethoscope from our rigid corpse.

So the numbers aren't as simple as lifespan. An unhealthy young person with outside interests and the desire to retire young is going to have at least as short a Career window as the very healthy 60 year old. And actuarial science let's us pass these out pretty well, no need to EVER go down Th "on average" line of discussion. The question is do you really want med school to be making these decisions, choosing the healthy 55 year old over the 20 year old because the latter has a strong family history of heart disease, etc? I don't think we want to go there but my point is theres never any reason to say "on average" old people have less life yet. You aren't admitting a group, you are admitting an individual. And thanks to the actuarial research done by the insurance industry there's a lot of more scientific principles one could use to parse out who is Going to be around long enough to have a Career without the nice gross generalizations that n older person will die first.

My biggest concern on this example was a story of a guy who wiped out his retirement and took out student loans, and then presumably borrowed even more money to start a business in his 60s. Which still sounds like a pretty foolish and risky thing, even if he managed to make a go of it.
 
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I am pretty sure that's his wife who is the spiritual healer...

I don't know that that makes it better. If you are running a Doctors office and offering as one of your health services something to the effect of "spiritual healing" that's not kosher. His medical license validates something a doctor shouldn't ethically be billing for. The legal profession is much more explicit that lawyers cant join forces with clergy or other non lawyers and run this kind of business, so if a lawyer would consider it unethical I have to wonder why doctors should be allowed to take the lower road. But I really didn't want to get sucked into this tangent.
 
It's not about who owns resources. It's about the fact that this guy who graduates at 61 cannot help as many patients as a younger graduate would over the course of their career. It makes for a great story, but it isn't pragmatic in any way.

the issue is that you think that seat in school "owes" society a certain number of patients, that student doesn't owe you or society anything
 
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I feel like the interest rates on my loans going to cover the foreclosure of an entire generation of liberal arts masters degree holders is my debt to society.

If I decide to go cash practice for wealthy clientele I judge myself not in the slightest. Nor do I pay the slightest heed to the judgement of others and certainly not society as a whole. 4 years spent in public service on a teacher's salary is my training for service bill paid in full.

When I shop for my first attending gig the public is just about the last thing I'll be thinking about.
 
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the issue is that you think that seat in school "owes" society a certain number of patients, that student doesn't owe you or society anything


Yea, I know and agree somewhat, sb247. But don't we all have at least an unspoken directive to help others? Wouldn't this be very true for physicians?

I just think that you can't readily quantify how many people a med school student-to-physician is going to help. I mean, as Law2doc pointed out, it's not at all straightforward.

But your point has strength too. And frankly, I prefer when people help out of desire rather than mere obligation. But if an adcom member made such a determination out of expectation of obligation, in our society, wouldn't it indeed be presumptuous to do so? I mean you really can't know, so. . .
 
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My class had a person who started in their late 40s and had no intention of ever practicing clinical medicine. We also had 2 that went back to wall street.
Did they waste their spots at a very competitive medical school, or did they earn it fairly and do whatever they wanted with their lives? I say the latter.
This.

If there is a niche, someone will fill it. And if they can make an honest living filling the niche they choose, who is anyone else to decide that niche wasn't worth filling?
 
This.

If there is a niche, someone will fill it. And if they can make an honest living filling the niche they choose, who is anyone else to decide that niche wasn't worth filling?

Well, a lot of state schools have vague missions/mandates to generate physicians to satisfy regional demands. So such schools might consider it problematic and a failure of their mission if someone takes a seat with no intention to be a practicing doctor.
 
I think many of you are missing the point on the financials here. Let's review some of your concerns:

1) Student loan debt. With IBR, PAYE, and extended-repayment options, the repayment term can extend 20-25 years. It's likely that the physician in question will not even be alive by then. I'd borrow to the hilt as well.

2) Retirement fund. Honestly, I think Americans have some kind of weird fascination with retirement. Guess what, guys? We're physicians, not laborers; we don't even have to retire. I don't plan to, ever. Why not? You'll notice when dealing with elderly family members that those who completely retire tend to see their health deteriorate rapidly. Few of us here are going to have the absurd wealth that it would require to do something novel and enjoyable every day of the week in full retirement. Most likely, the majority of your time will be spent in front of a TV and/or computer. There have been countless studies on what that does to your health, and it's not good.

Anecdotally, I have a 94-year-old great-grandmother that is still alive. Not only is she still alive, but her health shows no signs of decline. How does she stay so healthy? She has a 'garden', which is really more of a small farm, that she goes out into and works every day. At 94. Her daughter, my grandmother, has innumerable health issues. Why? Because she 'fully' retired, and didn't have enough money to spend most of her time out of the house.

As physicians (and future physicians), we have far more labor flexibility than most Americans. We can generally find part-time work fairly easily, especially after gaining years of experience. We can also open our own practices, or partner with another private practice. Academia is also an option, as is government and NGO work. There are so many options for scaling back your workload from the traditional 40-80 hour physician workweek.

I went to visit an IM physician a few weeks ago for a minor medical problem that I had, and the guy was no-kidding like 70-something years old. It was a small private practice, with multiple doctors, and I'm sure he was only there for a few hours per day, or perhaps a few days per week. This guy will probably outlive the average male due to this 'hobby' of his, which also provides a steady source of income! Something like that is how you want to 'retire'. Anyway, I digress.

Back to the topic of the physician in question. Yes, he is taking a spot that someone else could have taken. However, he also brings a vast amount of experience as a biomechanical engineer, including years of spinal research. Furthermore, he is paying the school full tuition for his education. The school is essentially getting the same expertise as a part-time PhD faculty member, not only for free, but he's paying them! In any case, we all know that the limited availability of medical school spots is a contrivance that doesn't need to exist. We wouldn't question a 61-year-old taking an undergraduate spot, because those are practically unlimited. The only reason that isn't the case with medical school is that the federal government directly funds residencies, and thus the number of slots are unable to expand to meet demand. Medical schools, of course, will not expand as aggressively as they might otherwise while a residency shortage exists.
 
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Not really. I'm not commenting on the topic of the thread.

Somebody noted that old people die before young people, and then TheTao denied this, and was kind of sarcastic about it. As someone who values statistics and reasoning, I wanted to correct him/her. .

I didn't deny ANYTHING, I simply reminded you that you are NOT God even if your goal is to be a Surgeon.:p
 
When I shop for my first attending gig the public is just about the last thing I'll be thinking about.

I normally wouldn't "cosign" on such a statement. But having spent a good part of my career working as a Scientist in places where I thought my research could make a difference as in academia or at a major cancer center (MD Anderson, anyone?), I realized that for the most part, people who are supposed to be "working for the greater good" ain't $hit.

I would have been FAR better off finishing med school/PA school/nursing school ASAP and working for organizations like Doctors Without Borders.:cool:
 
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Because it isn't about society, it's about the individual. If he wants to be a doctor and they believe he is capable and stands above the younger applicants, then he should have a shot. He might get a solid 15-20 years of practice if he's in good shape.

If all that mattered was the quantity of practice, women (who, statistically, practice part time far more often than men) and anyone over the age of 22 should never be admitted. Thankfully, schools take into account the fulfillment of not just society, but the individual seeking to attend medical school as well.

lol ;)
 
Oh and interestingly enough, I'd like to hear or read where schools articulate/d these positions. They wouldn't. Know why? They would be demonstrating an EEOC violation. So the poor student of, shall we say, whatever is considered "a less than desirable age," would have to have his/her attorneys go through everything that could be considered pretext; b/c they will never admit that they used reasoning that violates EEOC principles.

agreed.
 
In the case of age, it is. It's actually illegal to discriminate based on the age of an applicant, though you'd be hard pressed to prove it.

but according to you, it is about society and not the individual in the case of races and it is also ok and not illegal to discriminate applicants based on races even there is obvious and ample evidence to prove this charge ?? That is why there is my LOL (Hint: read your own recent posts). Anyway, I am not going to start another debate w you on this subject bc I think you are smart to realize your inconsistencies in your reasoning/logic if you wanted to.
 
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And as I stated, statistically speaking, people of AF-Am descent develop high blood pressure at younger ages than other groups in the U.S. Also, Af-Ams are more likely to develop complications associated with high blood pressure. Should these folks get denied admission to medical school b/c of these statistics? I mean, they may well be less likely to live as long as those of other groups. See, no matter which way you cut it, the reasoning leads to violating the equal rights principles. This goes for medical school as well as GME.

If you use this line of reasoning for one group, then you could use it for another. It's quite problematic.

agreed.

simple solution: change your line of reasoning/logic entirely to fit your argument ;) jk lol
 
but according to you, it is about society and not the individual in the case of races and it is also ok and not illegal to discriminate applicants based on races even there is obvious and ample evidence to prove this charge ?? That is why there is my LOL (Hint: read your own recent posts). Anyway, I am not going to start another debate w you on this subject bc I think you are smart to realize your inconsistencies in your reasoning/logic if you wanted to.
Age discrimination is outright illegal, and actually makes a pretty poor selection criteria for physicians anyway. There's kind of a difference in regard to age versus race. Even in the case of race-based admissions, you're looking at what that individual will bring to your school in regard to diversity, cultural competence, etc.
 
Yea, I know and agree somewhat, sb247. But don't we all have at least an unspoken directive to help others? Wouldn't this be very true for physicians?

I just think that you can't readily quantify how many people a med school student-to-physician is going to help. I mean, as Law2doc pointed out, it's not at all straightforward.

But your point has strength too. And frankly, I prefer when people help out of desire rather than mere obligation. But if an adcom member made such a determination out of expectation of obligation, in our society, wouldn't it indeed be presumptuous to do so? I mean you really can't know, so. . .

:thumbup::thumbup: !!
 
Age discrimination is outright illegal, and actually makes a pretty poor selection criteria for physicians anyway. There's kind of a difference in regard to age versus race. Even in the case of race-based admissions, you're looking at what that individual will bring to your school in regard to diversity, cultural competence, etc.

LOL :)
 
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