- Joined
- Jan 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,139
- Reaction score
- 14
*in the voice of Dr. Cox: By god newbie, you are reHEHEAlly getting on my nerves with your complaints. Now go get me some coffee and then you can go play with your dollhouse for a few minutes.
-Dr. P.
Harassment is so subjective. The real question is if the rates of reported harassment are any higher than any other job with this level of social interaction.
Harassment is so subjective. The real question is if the rates of reported harassment are any higher than any other job with this level of social interaction.
Very good point.Harassment is so subjective. The real question is if the rates of reported harassment are any higher than any other job with this level of social interaction.
At least they aren't making you swallow goldfish or go streaking in the hospital cafeteria. Chill.
Law2Doc said:At least they aren't making you swallow goldfish or go streaking in the hospital cafeteria. Chill.
People bitch and moan about these people that essentially make their life hell and then they eventually become those people
From what I have heard, I bet the average PhD student takes more harrassment than the average medical student.
Others before us have endured all of this, so why can't we?
Very good point.
There's also the element that a disproportionately high number of medical students come from upper middle class suburban backgrounds. Threshholds for what constitutes harrassment and stress might be lower than folks from more challenging backgrounds.
It's so funny to hear a bunch of pre-meds talking about this when the third-year forums is full of people going through it now complaining about how awful it is. Really, unless you've been through it, I don't think you can just dismiss it as "something that happens." You won't know how it is until you get there and regardless of how you think you'll react to it, I would bet that most of the people who pretend it's no big deal will actually be pretty disturbed by the experience when it happens.
Dialogue from House of God:
"What's suicide about?" I asked Berry. "Here," she said, drawing me to her, "put your head here. Close your eyes. What are you feeling?"
Blank. Then fury: "I'm pissed. I'm so serious I could kill!"
"That's what sucide is all about. Under incredible pressure, alone with no support from your bosses, most of you have found bizarre ways - this role labeling of Hooper with death and the Runt with sex - to project your anger outside yourselves. Pott's didn't. He never acted strange, he never got mad. he took his rage and blasted himself. introjection. The opposite of what you do Roy."
"What do I do?"
"You rail at everything, you're sarcastic, and even though you're pretty obnoxious, it's the one way you've chosen to survive.
Good book, but not as good as I had hoped. I think I missed the climax of the book. Was it when Potts died? If so, it wasn't that climactic.
There is no climax in internship, or residency for that matter. You get through it, you get a job and life begins.
If you don't figure out how to have a life before graduating from med school, your chances of having one after getting a job are pretty slim.
house of god is the worst book ever written.
Very good point.
There's also the element that a disproportionately high number of medical students come from upper middle class suburban backgrounds. Threshholds for what constitutes harrassment and stress might be lower than folks from more challenging backgrounds.
Nice job of stereotyping there.
Welllllllllllllllllllllll there may be some truth to that!...but then again maybe not...b/c harrassment is harrassment...people just deal with it differently...hint hint
I am very surprised by some of the reactions here by many posters. A hostile and unsupportive working or training atmosphere is at best unhelpful and at worst very detrimental to the experience as a whole.
ridicule and harrassment meant for pure degredation and abuse of those with lower stature in the medical heirarchy.
but this can be done constrictively for the benefit of all involved.
Hazing or harrassment has no place in such a serious and important mission. It has no place in medicine.
The article and your reaction to it demonstrate well that todays medstudents are probably different from medstudents past. It is an 'experience' and god forbid, it could be 'unsupportive'. This is not grammar school, where 'we all are unique and precious in our own way'. There are pretty clear standards, and keeping those standards up is important for our end-user, the patient.
If it is for the pure degradation and abuse, it is certainly wrong. If being asked a question which you don't know the answer to in front of your peers is 'harrassment', then you probably shouldn't be in medschool.
Sing with me: kumbayahh...
Hazing and harrassment: No.
Pimping in front of your peers: Yes.
I read the article and here is the direct quote.
"Most medical students in the United States are graduating from medical school having had experiences that they report as being either belittling or harassing,"
I agree that you get belittled or criticized when you are a medical student or even as an resident, but alot of it is subjective. What is considered belittling to someone, might be considered constructive criticism to me. Some people are sensitive more so than others. Alot of medical students / residents go around with egos and when someone says to them that you are not doing a good job because so and so, or something like " how can you not know that as a 4th year medical student.... you should go home and spend more time reading!" The problem is that if the only thing you ever get from someone is "oh you are such a good student, there is nothing that you can improve, you are great, etc, etc." Then you will never improve and get better. Sometimes it takes a person higher up to knock you off from your ego trip to become a better physician. I was a medical student not too long ago, now I am a resident and have the responsibility of eval / working with medical students. At the same time, I get criticized by my attendings. I have been on both side of the fence, and I can say that it is important to tell a student if they are doing a good job or if they have areas that they need to improve upon.... If no one is willing to point out your weakness, then you will never improve, that is the bottomline. Some times, the method of pointing out these weakness can seem belittling or harassing.... but you know what, as a med student or resident, just suck it up.... because one day, you may look back and say hey, that was a great criticism. No matter what you end up doing in life, business / waiting tables / janitor / nurse / doctor, you will always be criticized by either your boss, colleague, or patient. How you perceive these criticisms can have great effects on your work and happiness.
On the other hand, some things are considered harassment, this is a true story, one of the Duke med students years ago, during her surgery rotation, was retracting in the OR, the attending was pissed off that the retracting was not good, and put a staple into this medical student's hand. This example is crossing the lines.
Haemulon,
There is definitely malignant attendings and residents. Especially in the culture of General Surgery..... it is this hazing that people talk about. I was an intern last yr in the Gen Surg department and I can tell you some stories that are on the line of harassing and physical / psychological harm. One med student on one of surgical services here was 3 months pregnant.... she was in the OR scrubed, but the case required use of Fluoro, which means that you have to wear lead. If you are pregnant, then you should not be around fluoro period. Well, she had to scrube out when the fluoro was in use, this happened several times and the attending was annoyed that she had to scrube in / out, told her "either you stay for the whole case, or scrube out and don't come back again!". Give that you are a med student, and you have the pressure of getting good grades, she actually stayed and did not scrube out again. I learned later that this person had a miscarriage.... it is probably not due to the fluoro, but probably due to the stress of the surgery rotation (80-90 hrs each week, getting pimped in rounds in front of many people, coming in at 4:30 am to get vitals and pre round each morning, then be on call on the weekends, ect etc). Medicine can be a very stressful job.
Oh good lord. I said:Nice job of stereotyping there.
I do not consider pimping in front of peers or legitimate criticism of performance to be harrassment. It is a given that we should be challenged and put on the spot, even chewed out for not living up to expectations. It is when things cross the line to being malicious and deliberately degrading that we are really talking about here.