Medical Terminology as Spoken by the Layperson...

[Hard24Get]

If you don't like the thread, don't post in it.

Excuse me, but I have the right to post in ANY thread I please, especially if I consider it to be biased against those in my race. If you're not going to do anything about it as a mod, BUTT OUT!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jbar]

there is a difference between posting and basically pretending to be a mod, "closing a thread." It's fine to post the reasons why you don't like a thread, even why you think it should be closed. But it's silly to "declare" something that you don't have the power to declare. By your argument I could go to any thread I don't like and just declare it closed.

 

[Hard24Get]

there is a difference between posting and basically pretending to be a mod, "closing a thread." It's fine to post the reasons why you don't like a thread, even why you think it should be closed. But it's silly to "declare" something that you don't have the power to declare. By your argument I could go to any thread I don't like and just declare it closed.

Leave EM2BE alone. She may have tried to do something deceptive, but at least her heart was in the right place, which is more than I can say for most posters on this thread. If you don't want minorities, esp black people on the SDN EM forum, just say so. Can the enlightened among us get our own forum, then, please?

 

[Febrifuge]

1) "She may have tried to do something deceptive, but at least her heart was in the right place..."

Yeah, try that in your ethics class and see where it gets you. Should I start telling people in line at the supermarket I'm a doctor so they'll take my well-intended advice about getting their blood pressure checked? There are boards where encroaching on mod authority is grounds for booting. This place is less wild wild west than that, but still. I was a little amazed at the cojones and/or the self-delusion it takes to add a "this thread is closed" message.

2) "If you don't want minorities, esp black people on the SDN EM forum, just say so."

Where the heck is this coming from? That's a really big conclusion you're jumping to. I don't know the racial identities of anyone here (unless they've volunteered the info), and nobody knows mine. For good or ill, all we have on the Internets is the words on the screen; that's the basis we have to judge one another. I thought that's what the argument was about...

3) "Can the enlightened among us get our own forum, then, please?"

DrMom, super moderator, has already spoken to this point. The button you're looking for is at the top-left of your browser window... it says "BACK." Alternatively, there's also one in the top-right corner of the screen that should solve your problem. It looks like an X in a red box.

 

[EM2BE]

Sorry all, was not trying to start flame wars, I was trying to end them. I'm guessing it won't stop, so I'm done in this thread.

 

[DrMom]

If someone has a problem with a thread or post, what you can do is click on the report bad post button (

) and type in their complaint. Then the mods will review the post & complaint. There is no need to disrupt a 4 year old thread.

 

[Hard24Get]

I made it pretty damn clear I view this thread's title as singling out my race for ridicule. As a regular poster here, the fact that my feelings are being ignored has led me to feel unwelcome here. If you were truly welcoming of me, you would support my request to change the title and maybe even make a half-assed attempt to know where I am coming from. I will continue to speak out against this thread as long as I please. There is no rule stating that you cannot post int threads you do not approve of, so why don't you get off of your high horse.

If had realized how rampant ignorance was on this forum I would have left long ago.

1) "She may have tried to do something deceptive, but at least her heart was in the right place..."

Yeah, try that in your ethics class and see where it gets you. Should I start telling people in line at the supermarket I'm a doctor so they'll take my well-intended advice about getting their blood pressure checked? There are boards where encroaching on mod authority is grounds for booting. This place is less wild wild west than that, but still. I was a little amazed at the cojones and/or the self-delusion it takes to add a "this thread is closed" message.

2) "If you don't want minorities, esp black people on the SDN EM forum, just say so."

Where the heck is this coming from? That's a really big conclusion you're jumping to. I don't know the racial identities of anyone here (unless they've volunteered the info), and nobody knows mine. For good or ill, all we have on the Internets is the words on the screen; that's the basis we have to judge one another. I thought that's what the argument was about...

3) "Can the enlightened among us get our own forum, then, please?"

DrMom, super moderator, has already spoken to this point. The button you're looking for is at the top-left of your browser window... it says "BACK." Alternatively, there's also one in the top-right corner of the screen that should solve your problem. It looks like an X in a red box.

 

[DrMom]

There is no rule stating that you cannot post int threads you do not approve of, so why don't you get off of your high horse.

You're right, there isn't a rule, but there are ways to make complaints on SDN. In general, posting them in a long-running thread is generally going to be ineffective.

 

[Febrifuge]

This makes me crazy, because we have a genuine problem in our culture. We've needed to have a serious, constructive conversation about race for at least about 50 years, and that's only counting the contemporary trouble we created for ourselves.

So please -- stomping around and crying about how hurt your feelings are is not the way to start it. In fact, there's no better way to put people on the defensive than to pick something superficial - like the TITLE of the thread, without any regard to the 500+ posts in it, or any specific, rational, counter-arguments - and just say that the mere existence of this thing is creating an environment that is so toxic to you, you just can't continue.

Seriously. What kind of position is that? How persuasive is that? Whose mind is that going to change? What kind of a discussion is that inviting?

I am truly welcoming of you. That's why I'm talking to you like I'd talk to an intelligent adult with something to say, and I'm refusing to deal with you on this temper-tantrum level.

I'm also not trying to keep you from speaking. That's one more misrepresentation you've made. All I said was, if you are truly so unhappy with this thread and this board that you can't bear to gaze upon it, you can save yourself the trouble -- because it's not going to magically change simply because you want it to. You want it to really badly, we can see that. Great.

You can throw around emotional firecrackers like "racist" and "ignorant" all day, but you're not making a point. We're educated people. We've learned a lot in our lives so far, and we know there's room for more.

So how about you address some of this rampant ignorance you see by educating us? Bring something to the table. Make your point. Seriously, we're listening. We just really, really don't like to be screamed at, and we don't care how long you hold your breath.

I made it pretty damn clear I view this thread's title as singling out my race for ridicule. As a regular poster here, the fact that my feelings are being ignored has led me to feel unwelcome here. If you were truly welcoming of me, you would support my request to change the title and maybe even make a half-assed attempt to know where I am coming from. I will continue to speak out against this thread as long as I please. There is no rule stating that you cannot post int threads you do not approve of, so why don't you get off of your high horse.

If had realized how rampant ignorance was on this forum I would have left long ago.

 

[Hard24Get]

You're right, there isn't a rule, but there are ways to make complaints on SDN. In general, posting them in a long-running thread is generally going to be ineffective.

I complained long ago, and no one cared or responded because the mods were in on it. Many people have complained about this thread, to no avail. Again, because the mods approve. So when someone bumped this thread again, I couldn't take it anymore and I am speaking out as I have every right to do. I just thought the folks on here would have some decency, it's looking like I was wrong.

 

[Hard24Get]

This makes me crazy, because we have a genuine problem in our culture. We've needed to have a serious, constructive conversation about race for at least about 50 years, and that's only counting the contemporary trouble we created for ourselves.

So please -- stomping around and crying about how hurt your feelings are is not the way to start it. In fact, there's no better way to put people on the defensive than to pick something superficial - like the TITLE of the thread, without any regard to the 500+ posts in it, or any specific, rational, counter-arguments - and just say that the mere existence of this thing is creating an environment that is so toxic to you, you just can't continue.

Seriously. What kind of position is that? How persuasive is that? Whose mind is that going to change? What kind of a discussion is that inviting?

I am truly welcoming of you. That's why I'm talking to you like I'd talk to an intelligent adult with something to say, and I'm refusing to deal with you on this temper-tantrum level.

I'm also not trying to keep you from speaking. That's one more misrepresentation you've made. All I said was, if you are truly so unhappy with this thread and this board that you can't bear to gaze upon it, you can save yourself the trouble -- because it's not going to magically change simply because you want it to. You want it to really badly, we can see that. Great.

You can throw around emotional firecrackers like "racist" and "ignorant" all day, but you're not making a point. We're educated people. We've learned a lot in our lives so far, and we know there's room for more.

So how about you address some of this rampant ignorance you see by educating us? Bring something to the table. Make your point. Seriously, we're listening. We just really, really don't like to be screamed at, and we don't care how long you hold your breath.

My very first post was educational and friendly, and I was attacked in response. If you go back to the previous page you will see I made several attempts to educate. You are treating me like a Jesse Jackson or a child throwing a temper tantrum, and I refuse to be labeled as either. I have made many polite requests through other channels to change the title of this thread, which is offensive to me for reasons I have already elaborated on above in SEVERAL POSTS that you have apparently not yet read.

I have come to view SDN as a home of sorts, and I wanted to think that my feelings would be considered and respected, and the fact that they were not just makes me all the more upset and offended. And I don't care how stupid you think it makes me that I feel a little knife in my heart every time I come to the EM forum and see this thread. That's how I feel. I don't know what more reason you need than the ones I already gave. I don't know how people could fail to understand why I am upset. I just don't get it.

 

[Ypo.]

I put "All-timer's." I usually hear older white people say it.


Suggestion: couldn't the mods rename the thread to "medical slang?" That's really what it's about and this way it wouldn't be offensive to anyone. Pretty please?

 

[Febrifuge]

I don't care how stupid you think it makes me that I feel a little knife in my heart every time I come to the EM forum and see this thread. That's how I feel. I don't know what more reason you need than the ones I already gave. I don't know how people could fail to understand why I am upset. I just don't get it. [/B]

I got caught up in this acute-phase argument. I apologize for the strident exchange there. I don't want to make you repeat yourself, so I'll find that educational and friendly post. I owe you that much, at least.

But can you help me? I've looked back a few pages, and all I can see is your post from 9:42pm yesterday. Was there one earlier than that?

 

[Hard24Get]

I got caught up in this acute-phase argument. I apologize for the strident exchange there. I don't want to make you repeat yourself, so I'll find that educational and friendly post. I owe you that much, at least.

But can you help me? I've looked back a few pages, and all I can see is your post from 9:42pm yesterday. Was there one earlier than that?

Ok, fine, maybe none of my posts were friendly, but they were educational. I guess so much bile has built up inside of me that as soon as bellacnella said something, it just all came spilling out. I would apologize but I don't feel like it. It's not like this thread being offensive is a big surprise.

The reason I told you to read about the history of the word is because of the claim that it's racist. How can that be? It was invented by Black people!

Using it in THIS context is racist. Blacks invented this term to describe the vernacular adopted by our VERY recent ancestors, who were BEATEN if they tried to learn proper English and reading/writing. It was invented to explain why early blacks had difficulty pronouncing certain words (just like the French, Chinese, etc), and to begin a dialogue in which to give permission to the younger generation to speak proper English without being viewed as looking down on our grandparents, etc. It is not meant to be synonymous with "ghetto-talk" or ignorance, as is being portrayed here.

In this context, though the thread itself makes fun of all patients, the thread title essentially says "NIGG*R PATIENTS SAY THE DARNDEST THINGS"

 

[Hard24Get]

further clarification on why some blacks choose to talk "ghetto"

The above quote refers to a pervasive attitude in the black community that we need to not talk "white", that we should preserve the uneducated vernacular of our grandparents. In Europe and the UK, blacks were allowed to be educated, so there was no massive education gap between freed blacks and the next generation.

 

[Febrifuge]

I'll second Ypo's call for a change in thread title. The "ebonics" thing was a pretty clumsy shorthand for what the thread was supposed to be about, anyway (and has proven to be about, for the most part). Plus, it turns out there's a whole hornet's nest of connotations involved that are NOT what the thread is about.

I'd love to find a better way to say "messed-up stuff that patients say that isn't quite the right terminology but somehow still works, although it can be really funny." We could turn our energy to deciding on how to do that.

 

[enfuegoEP]

I don't think anybody means anything racist by posting here. That's the key issue. We are equal opportunists on this forum. We make fun of EVERYONE. "Things I've Learned From My Patients" is a prime example. People who practice emergency medicine are exposed to every aspect of human culture and idiotic behavior. We swap stories because most people outside of EM really wouldn't get if we tried to tell them. I've heard funny stories and shared some of my own on this forum. It's important to bring this whole discussion back to an intelligent and logical level....otherwise

 

[Hard24Get]

Perhaps the most salient post:

The point is that the title of this thread unfairly singles out ONE group of people for ridicule, when all patients say silly things from time to time.
Maybe I can put this in terms you and Apollyon can understand:

What if I made a thread where everyone could post mistakes all different kinds of physicians have made, and titled it, "Foreign-trained Doc Screw-ups". Not too nice, is it? I'm really shocked at your ignorance.

The latter was directed at Doowai's absolute refusal to address the question at hand and completely misinterpret the issue.

 

[Hard24Get]

I don't think anybody means anything racist by posting here. That's the key issue. We are equal opportunists on this forum. We make fun of EVERYONE. "Things I've Learned From My Patients" is a prime example. People who practice emergency medicine are exposed to every aspect of human culture and idiotic behavior. We swap stories because most people outside of EM really wouldn't get if we tried to tell them. I've heard funny stories and shared some of my own on this forum. It's important to bring this whole discussion back to an intelligent and logical level....otherwise

I'm all for that, but then the title has to agree with that philosophy. It might seems like a small point to you all but it is a HUGE one for me. Also, it should be noted that the posts are occasionally inappropriate (ie, "where's the post making fun of illiterate mexicans")

 

[SoCuteMD]

I'll second Ypo's call for a change in thread title. The "ebonics" thing was a pretty clumsy shorthand for what the thread was supposed to be about, anyway (and has proven to be about, for the most part). Plus, it turns out there's a whole hornet's nest of connotations involved that are NOT what the thread is about.

I'd love to find a better way to say "messed-up stuff that patients say that isn't quite the right terminology but somehow still works, although it can be really funny." We could turn our energy to deciding on how to do that.

I thought EM2BE's suggestion "Patients say the darndest things" was a good one

 

[Hard24Get]

Those who know me personally know I laugh at anything and anybody. I will be the first person to ridicule you, but I will also be the first person to give you a helping hand. I will almost always be the first one to laugh at myself. I may snicker at how a patient says something but I will be the first person to re-educate them. And I have never figured out how to talk "ghetto", though it has cost me many black friends and even the respect of some family members. Generally, Jesse Jackson and his ilk annoy me with constant cries of racism and I didn't indicate my race on my residency apps because I didn't want to be interviewed as an Affirmative Action case.

So for this thread title, and some of the posts herein, to grate on me, it has to be alot. I would be happy to answer any questions as to why I became so irate.

 

[Ypo.]

I'm all for that, but then the title has to agree with that philosophy. It might seems like a small point to you all but it is a HUGE one for me. Also, it should be noted that the posts are occasionally inappropriate (ie, "where's the post making fun of illiterate mexicans")

For whatever it's worth, I totally understand you're saying. I'm assuming you would not be at all offended by a thread entitled "medical slang." I would imagine that a lot of the posts in this thread were attributed to patients of various ethnicities.

While I don't think anyone intended it the way it comes across to you, I do understand why you take issue. I agree it would be better for everyone if we could just change the title so that it accurately reflects the content. Let's face it, we're making fun of patients, making fun of ourselves, and learning what certain phrases can mean all at the same time. No one is meaning to single out a single ethnic group here.

 

[spyderdoc]

I complained long ago, and no one cared or responded because the mods were in on it.

Really? I've been a mod here for going on 6 yrs, and I sure don't recall any reported complaints...

So, per reported post request, and complaints from users, I changed the title of the thread...Now, for the love of God, can you all just get back to basking in your post-match glory.

 

[Febrifuge]

<cough> There may be one or two now...

SoCute, I'm not nuts about EM2's title suggestion, partly because it was a doo-doo-headed move, pretending to be a mod/ pretending to close this thread/ starting another. Also partly because it's a reference to a TV show that I, as a supposedly hip, pop-culture guy, am legally bound to roll my eyes at and proclaim to be lame.

 

[Hard24Get]

Really? I've been a mod here for going on 6 yrs, and I sure don't recall any reported complaints...

My bad, in looking back at my messages I sent a PM to the OP, someone else told me they emailed a mod but I did not do so personally:

I enjoy your thread but would feel much, much better if you could rename it, especially now that it is a sticky.

Whether you meant it or not, "ebonics" has a very racial definition, as it describes the "accent" derived from West African language that many uneducated blacks share. It is a serious term that unfortunately has been turned around and used to insult black people.

I don't think it is fair to keep the name until someone comes up with something "better", and I think the name is a major reason why people take offense. How about changing the thread name to "Medical Vernacular", slang, or neologisms as a show of good faith?

Thank you for your kind consideration.

 

[Hard24Get]

Really? I've been a mod here for going on 6 yrs, and I sure don't recall any reported complaints...

So, per reported post request, and complaints from users, I changed the title of the thread...Now, for the love of God, can you all just get back to basking in your post-match glory.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I feel my post-match basking coming back already!

Of course, the title could be a little sexier...

 

[Ypo.]

Renamed. All praise the wonderful mods.


Everyone's happy. Moving on. Who's got a good story?

 

[Febrifuge]

This one time, I wasted a ton of time on the internet, and it made studying for hours seem almost bearable...

Tomorrow, my plan is to start complaining about the new, overly-long thread title. WHO'S WITH ME?!

 

[SoCuteMD]

<cough> There may be one or two now...

SoCute, I'm not nuts about EM2's title suggestion, partly because it was a doo-doo-headed move, pretending to be a mod/ pretending to close this thread/ starting another. Also partly because it's a reference to a TV show that I, as a supposedly hip, pop-culture guy, am legally bound to roll my eyes at and proclaim to be lame.

I don't think EM2BE was "pretending to be a mod." And I think SDNers have done far more in an attempt to impersonate mods. I don't think we need to call anyone a doo-doo head.

 

[enfuegoEP]

And I have never figured out how to talk "ghetto", though it has cost me many black friends and even the respect of some family members. .

This is unfortunate H24G because you're very accomplished women and did so on your own merit's. Being on the verge of receiving an MD, PhD from an Ivy league school and matched into a very competitive residency speaks volumes about you. However, it's important to know that the vast majority of people do not like to be censured and told what they can and cannot post, even if you're extremely passionate about what they are posting.

 

[Hard24Get]

This one time, I wasted a ton of time on the internet, and it made studying for hours seem almost bearable...

Tomorrow, my plan is to start complaining about the new, overly-long thread title. WHO'S WITH ME?!

me.... hmmm, or maybe I've made enough trouble for the week..

 

[Hard24Get]

This is unfortunate H24G because you're very accomplished women and did so on your own merit's. Being on the verge of receiving an MD, PhD from an Ivy league school and matched into a very competitive residency speaks volumes about you. However, it's important to know that the vast majority of people do not like to be censured and told what they can and cannot post, even if you're extremely passionate about what they are posting.

Well, that's part of the reason I didn't go to the mods, but rather to my "friends" to explain why I felt things should be changed. I never came here to censor people, but rather to educate them on something very important to me and perchance change their minds. EVERYONE has the right to post what they want, including me, and I made a decision to challenge everyone who didn't agree that the title of the thread was offensive, and you will never see me back down from a challenge without an excellent reason. I don't think that is censorship - at worse it is aggression, but it could not be contained. Sorry if my outspokenness upsets you, but it is me, and I can't apologize for that, no matter how much I like you.

P.S. ixnay on the bio, you'll blow my cover!

 

[Hard24Get]

Renamed. All praise the wonderful mods.


Everyone's happy. Moving on. Who's got a good story?

I would love to contribute as a gesture of good faith, but since I will the first MD in a family with many not so educated and/or southern members, I am so used to how they talk (i.e., 'sugar', etc) that I am hard-pressed to think of anything striking. Thinking, though......

 

[f_w]

Political correctness: 1
Free speech: 0

 

[Hard24Get]

Political correctness: 1
Free speech: 0

Here's one for free speech: **** you

 

[Hard24Get]

Here's one for free speech: **** you

whoops, guess the automated SDN 1st Amendment terminator blocked free speech again.

 

[Hard24Get]

The point is, this is a moderated forum and the mod made his own call. Please see the drslounge and other unmoderated forums for your race-bashing needs

 

[Apollyon]

Please be even more condescending, and put things in terms that I can understand.

 

[EM2BE]

Thank you very much mods for changing the name. Now this thread will be much more enjoyable to read without all the flame wars.



Wishing I was an hour from here now...would be partying it up really good and have lots of stories to come back with...but no one would go with me.

 

[Hard24Get]

sorry, EM2BE, I will stop taking the bait now!

 

[socmob]

I'm happier with the new title too. Thanks everyone!

 

[Doowai]

Perhaps the most salient post:



The latter was directed at Doowai's absolute refusal to address the question at hand and completely misinterpret the issue.

As I read further I apologize for my comment. Sorry that I and everyone else was not more sensitive and nicer.

 

[ComstockOSU]

Well, I'm going to share something with you. The educated language of America (and the rest of the world) is English. A lack of proper education causes a change in the common words used ....this is seen in many groups/locations in our country. Ebonics is simply the result of poor education. At this point in our country, where there is FREE PUBLIC EDUCATION to anyone (regardless of citizenship) the issue is not about a race of people not having the opportunity to educate themselves (as you referenced earlier regarding slaves/whites) but more about individuals who do not choose to embrace an education that is being given to them.

IMO "ebonics" is a term used to justify poor educational ambitions.

Many major global markets/countries use English to communicate in a common global language. If people (regardless of race - white, black, mexican etc) want to "be on top" you have to be able to communicate with those already there. Speak the language properly....or if you choose not to, do not be offended when it is ridiculed.

It's no different than the slang used in Pusan, South Korea being frowned upon and ridiculed by those in Seoul. Its not a white/black thing, its about education. The farmers in rural Pusan have a different way of speaking (just as the farmers in rural Kansas)...but to be taken seriously you have to speak properly. Period.

 

[ComstockOSU]

As a non-established poster, you are only going to get flames thrown at you. As you well know, many of these phrases posted on this forum came from white people. What do you call yourself?

Got another one for ya:
Konglish.

 

[deleted65604]

What do you think of Bill Cosby’s comments and the controversy surrounding them?

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/cosby

Using it in THIS context is racist. Blacks invented this term to describe the vernacular adopted by our VERY recent ancestors, who were BEATEN if they tried to learn proper English and reading/writing. It was invented to explain why early blacks had difficulty pronouncing certain words (just like the French, Chinese, etc), and to begin a dialogue in which to give permission to the younger generation to speak proper English without being viewed as looking down on our grandparents, etc. It is not meant to be synonymous with "ghetto-talk" or ignorance, as is being portrayed here.

In this context, though the thread itself makes fun of all patients, the thread title essentially says "NIGG*R PATIENTS SAY THE DARNDEST THINGS"

 

[TysonCook]

I do have a new "slang" name or whatever PC we are working in here: the combination of WORDS. Note here not a NAME combination (billy ray, bobby sue, DreQuon), but phrased:

Brother and Sister (~1 & 2 YO):

MyPreciousThang (yes the spelling is correct, with the A in ThAng)
&
PraiseBeHisName (yes!)

Brother and sister.....all I can think of is how many bubbles can one fill out on a SAT scantron before running out

 

[pdp2001]

Why don't you take it somewhere else? Oh yeah, you don't because it's socially unacceptable elsewhere. Gee, why is that.

You really have to make fun of 'medical ebonics' so that you don't burn out and quit medicine? Now THAT is funny.

good thing you're not at my school. we started out our EM sub-i with a 30 minute run down on common chief complaints in Camden. without that talk, i'd probably have offended half of my patients by not understand what the hell they're saying.

if you have a problem with things said here, then go away. it's easier for you to stop reading than to convince everyone else to feel ashamed for finding funny phrases funny.

 

[deleted109597]

So I learned a new one recently.
"You have a cough, do you have phlegm?
Yes.
What are you coughing up?
I'm coughing up coal. "
The first few times I heard this, I thought, these people are coughing up black ****?
Over time I have learned that they are saying "cold", because if you ask them a color, it varies from yellow to green.

 

[Perrin]

Me: So, you're eye is red and itchy. Is there a lot of discharge or gunk in it when you wake up in the morning?
Pt: They some cat butter that I wipe out.
Me: ????....some what?
Pt: Cat butter, you know, CAT BUTTER.
Me: Is this like eye boogers?
Pt: what's that?
Me: It's the gooey/crusty stuff that's sometimes in your eyes when you wake up.
Pt: Yeah, that's cat butter.

-----------
ROS:
eyes: +cat butter
-----------

 

[Kittenmommy]

Me: So, you're eye is red and itchy. Is there a lot of discharge or gunk in it when you wake up in the morning?
Pt: They some cat butter that I wipe out.
Me: ????....some what?
Pt: Cat butter, you know, CAT BUTTER.
Me: Is this like eye boogers?
Pt: what's that?
Me: It's the gooey/crusty stuff that's sometimes in your eyes when you wake up.
Pt: Yeah, that's cat butter.

-----------
ROS:
eyes: +cat butter
-----------

"Cat butter", huh? Well, that's certainly a new one!