Medicine, Dntistry, Vet- The quest for Top Dog Status

[doc toothache]

Every year the question of who is Top Dog comes up. Here's a discussion on the subject.

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[predent12]

This is so interesting. Thanks so much!

 

[flatcamelbak]

Very interesting article doc.

Why don't more of the 26,000 people that don't get into Allopathic apply for Osteopathic programs? As I understand, Osteopathic degrees allow students to do Allopathic residencies, you get a very similar education, and it's less competitive. The ratio is less favorable, but the GPA is significantly lower.

I have heard veterinary school is the hardest to get into my entire life. Very interesting.

 

[Menthol]

Very interesting article doc.

Why don't more of the 26,000 people that don't get into Allopathic apply for Osteopathic programs? As I understand, Osteopathic degrees allow students to do Allopathic residencies, you get a very similar education, and it's less competitive.

I have heard veterinary school is the hardest to get into my entire life. Very interesting.

pretty simple..
because they get DO next to their name instead

 

[Shazzam]

pretty simple..
because they get DO next to their name instead

As funny as that statement sounds, you're probably right on.

 

[dantemac]

Very interesting. I like the undergrad major breakdown. Also, podiatry is probably a hidden gem. ~670/970 who applied were able to matriculate lol

 

[flatcamelbak]

but you get to be a chiropractor + MD. It's like a two-for-one deal. There has to be more to it than ego

 

[free99]

Interesting trend in the chemistry... more PhDs than masters students.

 

[predent12]

I have heard veterinary school is the hardest to get into my entire life. Very interesting.

Me too! I wonder if it was at one point?

 

[flatcamelbak]

Check this out if you want to read about the vet school situation http://news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=21857.

"That is to say, the debt burden relative to income is approximately double for DVMs compared to MDs, a daunting difference," he stated.

Last year, mean full-time starting salaries, not including intern salaries, totaled $66,469

I know vets don't usually do it for the money, but those may be some very motivating factors to take their talents elsewhere.

 

[wo5678]

I think med school (MD) still wins.

 

[Surive123]

According to the stats:

MD > DMD/DDS
DMD/DDS > DO
MD+DO = DMD/DDS

Therefore the competitiveness to get into medical school is the same as dental school, however, you will need (depending on the individual) slightly higher stats for MD schools.

But this in no way says that dental students are any less inferior than MD students and DO students are less inferior to Dental Students. There are simply too many variables beyond GPA and it completely depends on the person and the interests of said person.

I swear if I hear the below again, I might freak.


3.9GPA and you are going dental? You are "smart" enough for medical though - you should take the MCAT.

or

pre-med with lower stats: "brb' dental school is my backup" (No...go DO then....considering the complete lack of anything dental in your app - good luck getting accepted...also GPA averages for dental are ~.1 lower than MD....)



The focus of your application to get into MD schools (in regards to extracurriculars) is just as important as the focus for dental schools. Dental school doesn't work as a "back-up".

 

[doc toothache]

I know vets don't usually do it for the money, but those may be some very motivating factors to take their talents elsewhere.

Either the numbers are off or vets have been taking a pay cut. On May 2010, the median salary for vets was listed at $82,040.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/veterinarians.htm

 

[dentalWorks]

Very interesting article doc.

Why don't more of the 26,000 people that don't get into Allopathic apply for Osteopathic programs? As I understand, Osteopathic degrees allow students to do Allopathic residencies, you get a very similar education, and it's less competitive. The ratio is less favorable, but the GPA is significantly lower.

I have heard veterinary school is the hardest to get into my entire life. Very interesting.

from what some MDs WON'T OPENLY ADMIT, there is some pride issues (MD is associated with the "smarter" pre-med applicant.... DO still carrys the stigma of being the MD reject).... I am not suggesting any of this is true.

However, the thing that does matter the most with the MD vs DO debate is how the 3rd and 4th year rotations are structured. The MDs GENERALLY have broader hospital associations that are more near by (so less travel), where-as some of the DOs don't have this luxury, their students are (at times) traveling around the country trying to complete their requirements...

 

[503224]

but you get to be a chiropractor + MD. It's like a two-for-one deal. There has to be more to it than ego

To be quite frank, aside from the ego thing, DO's are still discriminated against with some residencies/fellowships. I know this for a fact because both of my parents are MD's and have been in academic centers their entire careers and they've had students/residents who have faced those issues.

Last yr, for ex, one of my parents had to fight to get a DO fellow (who was the best fellow this parent has ever seen, so this person had glowing recommendations) into another (very specialized) fellowship during the scramble. The reason this fellow didn't match was due to the fact that she was a DO. We know this for certain because the specialty that particular parent in is very small since it's so specialized and so knowing people/asking around at the places that fellow interviewed was easy.

My other parent is in a competitive specialty at an academic center, and 1 person on the faculty in his department is a DO (out of slightly over 50 people). None of the current residents in that program are DO's. I looked at other academic centers and that specialty basically has very few if any DO's on the faculty on the websites that I've seen. I believe DO's are being discriminated against in this particular residency because it is a highly competitive specialty for MD's to get. Foreign medical grads are also discriminated against in this specialty due to the popularity. If competition is high with US-bred MD's, why would they pick a DO or an FMG?

I know the two degrees are equivalent, and DO's make great doctors, but my personal opinion doesn't change the fact that discrimination happens with some residencies/fellowships. If I were doing med school, I would much rather reapply and get an MD than become a DO.

ETA: I'm not the most knowledgable on how the whole accreditation and residency thing works, but I also know that there are AMA and some separate DO residencies. DO-specific residencies do not allow MD students, but ACGME residencies (overseen by the AMA) do allow DO students. I believe that there are only enough spots at DO residencies to hold 1/2 of all osteopathic medical students. DO residencies usually aren't at big medical centers or universities, so they aren't considered to be as good because there is less of a range in patients/opportunities.

Btw, both of my parents are MD's so the programs I am referencing are ACGME. I don't know anything about DO-only residencies...just that they exist.

I'm being vague due to privacy concerns. Sorry if it's confusing!

 

[503224]

from what some MDs WON'T OPENLY ADMIT, there is some pride issues (MD is associated with the "smarter" pre-med applicant.... DO still carrys the stigma of being the MD reject).... I am not suggesting any of this is true.

However, the thing that does matter the most with the MD vs DO debate is how the 3rd and 4th year rotations are structured. The MDs GENERALLY have broader hospital associations that are more near by (so less travel), where-as some of the DOs don't have this luxury, their students are (at times) traveling around the country trying to complete their requirements...

This is also true. I think this ties into what I posted directly above.

 

[doc toothache]

Interesting trend in the chemistry... more PhDs than masters students.

Some schools only offer Ph.D. programs in chemistry. Should a professor decide that a student is not quite Ph.D. material, they may send him/her packing with an M.S. degree.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

According to the stats:

MD > DMD/DDS
DMD/DDS > DO
MD+DO = DMD/DDS

Therefore the competitiveness to get into medical school is the same as dental school, however, you will need (depending on the individual) slightly higher stats for MD schools.

But this in no way says that dental students are any less inferior than MD students and DO students are less inferior to Dental Students. There are simply too many variables beyond GPA and it completely depends on the person and the interests of said person.

I swear if I hear the below again, I might freak.


3.9GPA and you are going dental? You are "smart" enough for medical though - you should take the MCAT.

or

pre-med with lower stats: "brb' dental school is my backup" (No...go DO then....considering the complete lack of anything dental in your app - good luck getting accepted...also GPA averages for dental are ~.1 lower than MD....)



The focus of your application to get into MD schools (in regards to extracurriculars) is just as important as the focus for dental schools. Dental school doesn't work as a "back-up".

I would say thats a pretty fair representation. Both med and dent being roughly equal (combining DO and MD together) but entrance to a specific MD school being harder than dent. That seems to be the most logical of all the posts thus far.

 

[Daneosaurus]

Wouldn't a good statistical measure be the percentage of applicants vs matriculants normalized against the number of schools per discipline?

 

[Daneosaurus]

I would say thats a pretty fair representation. Both med and dent being roughly equal (combining DO and MD together) but entrance to a specific MD school being harder than dent. That seems to be the most logical of all the posts thus far.

Way to open a thread from nearly 2 years ago and then tricking me into responding like its new.

 

[doc toothache]

Way to open a thread from nearly 2 years ago and then tricking me into responding like its new.

After all, two years ago....that's ancient history.