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Medicine going down the toilet

Discussion in 'General Residency Issues' started by nradsoit3, May 15, 2007.

  1. nradsoit3

    nradsoit3 Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jan 20, 2004

    The following last line from the article pretty much sums up my own personal feelings , "I feel free again, released from prison."

    Time to start thinking of my exit strategy. The final scene from the Shawshank Redemption immediately comes to mind.
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  3. mig26x

    mig26x Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Apr 15, 2004
    Miami, FL
    Im starting residency training next month and this article just put things in perspective!!
  4. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Man, that was depressing.
  5. Gfunk6

    Gfunk6 And to think . . . I hesitated Physician PhD Faculty Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Apr 15, 2004
    SF Bay Area
    Cry me a freaking river. This quote pretty much says it all,
    Oh, you have to drive an Acura NSX instead of your Mercedes or BMW? Boo-freaking-hoo.

    Most of this article is about old foagies missing the good old days. Personally, as a junior resident I could not be more excited about my profession. The glory days are finished, get over it.
  6. NewHope

    NewHope 2+ Year Member

    Feb 23, 2007
    I don't mean to sound insensetitive, but where is the news here? Unless you've started your medical education some time in the 1980s and then things turned out to be not what you expected them to be....Did I miss something? Over the years many industries went through a transformation, and some became absolete. All kinds of manual labour, assembly lines, messenger service. But hey, Do you guys remeber that in the 1990s you could have some "Socks R Us" joint on the corner, but if you put ".com" next to it the soap bubble would made you a milioner. So What? It has passed too. No sh!t, it's hard to make it in Manhattan in solo practice :smuggrin: . Are these guys kidding me? NY has always been a welfare State, and now even more so with so many working ppl leaving, and able-budied bums sucking the system dry, and the illigal aliens invading the City, not paying the dime in tax revenues, and knocking out anchor babies, and using the social programs to the max. :mad: (Please don't call me a racist or some other crap. I'm an immigrant myself, but got in U.S without breaking the law, and not demanding everybody else to pay my way here. And I live in NYC, and i work in the health care field here, so I know exactly what I'm talking about). How many business we lost, and how many ppl moved out of NYC after 9/11. There is a huge migration from NY to the vibrant economy, low or no income tax States. You've got to go where the action is, and not maintain your "exclussivity", and think that you are just entitled to the way of life that's once was a reality. Just think about ppl who worked in IT, business etc. Their jobs are being shipped to India and China, and South of the Border by the craploads. If you entered medicine for money along, then you deserve to be screwed :smuggrin: . Most sane ppl who go into medicine these days do so not because, but despite what it entails, IMHO.
  7. Bitsy3221

    Bitsy3221 5+ Year Member

    Sep 28, 2006
    The Hub
    Depressing article, for certain but the author did us no favors by writing this and publishing it in the NYT.

    A bunch of Manhattan-based doctors complaining that they have to send their kids to public school and that they had to trade in their Jags for Acuras is NOT the way to get John Q. Public behind us and supporting our cause. This approach would be better suited for a physician-based publication--although I'm not sure bitching about the current situation solves anything; we all know how dire our situation is.

    From what I have seen, the general lay public may be familiar with what it takes to become a physician but does not know the nitty-gritty, and in particular the financials required to get here. I am amazed at how many fairly well educated people think that since I'll now be a resident that I'm bringing in the "big bucks." They are surprised when they hear it's really only about $50,000/yr (which is on the high end for residents, I know)

    We should put forth efforts to educating the public into the sacrifices--temporal and financial--it takes to get into and complete medical school and to obtain and complete a residency. Perhaps if they were a bit more attuned to the fact that many of us have put ourselves into $200,000+ debt and what that really means--it is easy to say that number, but when you then spell that out and let people know how much money that takes over thirty years to pay off they realize what that lump sum really means. I have seen people offer mild sympathy when they hear that number, but it takes on a whole new meaning when they realize that my student loan payment is high than the mortgage on their very well appointed home--that is when they really start to grasp what that student loan debt means. Try detailing what a residency really entails on a day-to-day and year-to-year basis, and relay how many of us have had to put off our personal lives (or see our personal lives fall apart) because this job has to come first. This is the life we have chosen, and I'm not complaining, but I really don't think the non-medical public really understands, and an article like this does us no good and makes us seem like a bunch of whiny brats who are sad b/c we can't afford a Mercedes AND a Jaguar.
  8. sequela

    sequela Junior Member 2+ Year Member

    Jul 4, 2006
    i absolutely agree...these ny docs are ridiculous and obnoxious...i am embarrassed to be associated with their same profession after having read that article. if i can't find sympathy for them, i can't imagine a single struggling new yorker that could or would. i would imagine that it would only inspire anger.
  9. ice_23

    ice_23 Economics Monster 7+ Year Member

    Jul 21, 2003
    The article seemed insidiously anti-doctors (i.e. "I'm a DOCTOR" as a quote when being compared to part of the healthcare team ==> How many of you have or would say that?).

  10. NewHope

    NewHope 2+ Year Member

    Feb 23, 2007
    I don't know if these doctors are real, but the whole thing is presented as an anti-doctor set up. They found some old hacks who are whining about good ole' days, and speak in such stereotypes that public believes. What a bunch of B.S. But then again NY mag sure cares more abiout their circulation and sales than the issues facing young docs. Anyway, may be some professional medical publication could do a better job. But then how do you reach enough lives to read it? A re-print in the lay-type of journal? I wish that flexible spending (or a medical saving) accounts would become more common in use by the general public. This will give ppl a choice of their doc, and will bite insurance industry as well. Until then it's all rubbish. We can complain all we want, but it will be falling on the deaf ears b/c ppl who they chose to speak for the docs are "poor souls" who are now "forced" to drive Accura instead of BMWs, and their "poor kids" now have to go to a public schools, just everybody else. Oh my, How terrible! :rolleyes: :mad:. Ahhhh, forget it. To me the whole thing just stinks to High Heavens.
  11. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic! Staff Member Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2000
    hSDN Member
    That article only made the general public LESS empathic with the *plight* of the physician rather than more so.

    While there were some good points - the length of education only to, in many cases, make less than a junior law partner, the lack of assistants or the need to pay for multiple people to do the same job, etc. - the major complaints from the physicians seems to be as you guys note: "Boo hoo - I have to drive an Acura now, my wife has to go back to work, I have to send my kids to public school with all the unwashed masses." :(

    The article was obviously not written for other physicians (hence its placement in a magazine) but it could have included some younger physicians, talk about the cost of education, the cost of starting a practice, malpractice etc. Instead they gave us oldies whining about how things aren't as good as they used to be - way to court sympathy and healthcare reform guys.
  12. McDoctor

    McDoctor Over One Billion Cured 5+ Year Member

    Feb 13, 2006
    Right, because there's much more stability in the hotel business than in cardiology.:rolleyes:

    You can find this article published in every decade, only the names and dates are changed. The underlying themes are the same. The sky is falling. The good old days are gone. blah...blah...blah.

    There was medicare hysteria. medicaid hysteria. HMO hysteria. Hillary hysteria. Big pharma hysteria. It never ends.
  13. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio. Physician Gold Donor SDN Advisor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Jan 21, 2006
    True, that. Nothing is like it used to be. The whole world is going to hell in a handbasket.

    Might as well enjoy the ride. ;)
  14. Gfunk6

    Gfunk6 And to think . . . I hesitated Physician PhD Faculty Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Apr 15, 2004
    SF Bay Area
    Now that I think about it, the article almost seems like a parody. Some of the quotes are just so over the top that it makes you wonder.
  15. Llenroc

    Llenroc Bandidos Motorcycle Club 5+ Year Member

    Dec 25, 2004
    This article is talking about doctor's experiences in the New York City area, which is one of the worst markets to be a doctor in the U.S. My Dad did his residency at SUNY Stony Brook, and a lot of the practicing doctors we knew worked for as little as $70,000-$90,000. It was a joke. The starting salaries my Dad was offered there were half what he was being offered in the Midwest.
  16. sophiejane

    sophiejane Exhausted Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Waco, TX
    Exactly what I was thinking. All those phrases with exclamation points--and dashes!--kind of makes you think he's taking the pi$$ out of us.

    "Where did we go wrong?" Well, we might have gotten a bit big for our britches a bit too soon. Back to reality. God forbid your children have to go to (in hushed tones) -- public school! --it's horrifying.

    I'm just waiting for the lid to blow off the top of the legal profession...which will probably never happen because most of the people who make the laws are also lawyers. :thumbdown:
  17. ekydrd

    ekydrd Senior Member 5+ Year Member

    Oct 14, 2004
    Louisville KY

    And to think... I recently signed a contract that has me starting out at twice that! I guess rural America doesn't know that doctors are only worth a buck or two.
  18. docB

    docB Chronically painful Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Nov 27, 2002
    Las Vegas, NV
    Most med students and many residents don't realize that medicine has a unique job market. Because many specialties are very portable (meaning you can go anywhere and have a career) docs can choose where they want to go based on the lifestyle they want to have. Consequently, the most desirable places pay less because the supply of docs who want to be there is relatively high. Places that are less desirable have to pay more. I don't want to tick anyone off but over the past several years parts of the midwest such as Kansas and Oklahoma have gotten the reputation of paying more. This is because they don't have the big metro areas, skiing and beaches that other amenities that other places boast. Places like NYC, SF, LA, Denver, Boise, Reno (skiiers love Boise and Reno) can and do pay less. Other places like FL have issues like bad malpractice keeping them from getting "too" desirable.

    Any resident who'll be on the job hunt ought to keep this in mind. In choosing where you want to go you will be affected by this phenomena.
  19. sequela

    sequela Junior Member 2+ Year Member

    Jul 4, 2006
    but this is case for many professional "desirable" locals, the competition is fierce. so while you may be able to get a job there, you may have to work even harder to keep up with the competition.

    in medicines favor, is that you CAN take a job in the sticks or mountains or flatlands (and some people would rather live in those kinda places for standard of living reasons, esp families or sometimes that's where they are from and they want to go back)...if you were in finance or consulting or marketing this may not be a possibilty when starting fresh outta b-school. you might be forced to live in major cities/expensive cities and quite frankly, their starting salaries (this is a rough estimate based on what some of my mba friends are making in these areas) are on par with an attending salary of 150-200k which still puts you no closer to easily owning a home in nyc or sf. or a mercedes AND a jaguar.

    what medicine is and will always be at the very minimum (in comparison with other professional fields) is job SECURITY. not necessarily pay-scale security.

    you can't turn out physicians in anything less than 7 years. and even in the worst of economic times, physicans will always be needed. that's about all we've got going for us and in comparison to other fields, it's not a bad deal.

    that cardiologist that quit and went on to operate a B&B could easily have gone anywhere else in this freaking country to make a living as an MD.

    i'm sorry but a B&B???? it certainly IS early retirement with potential for financial perks so that he doesn't have to tap into his fat investment/retirement accounts....which i'm sure he has given his years as a cardiologist during the golden years.

    no sympathy for that guy what-so-ever.
  20. heech

    heech Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jun 23, 2004
    Yes, but in other major professional fields this "competition" translates into greater economic winnings. Attorneys and bankers in San Francisco and New York are paid a heavy, heavy premium over their peers in Kansas and Iowa.

    This is probably because these other professionals are able to provide services to end-users thousands of miles away. Doctors, so far, are only treating patients able to reach their clinic. Until telemedicine becomes a reality, doctors will be paid less for working in desirable locations.
  21. SimulD

    SimulD Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2001
    Alexandria, VA
    The article was extremely "anti-doctor". Why would anyone feel sorry for those people? They make me gag.

    I think someone made a good point: for the young docs, this is all we know. And frankly, it's good enough for me. I don't want to be involved in private equity or strategy con"slut"ing, or corporate law. I'd hate waking up. I'd take this over any other job, any day of the week. Except for: 1) Rock star 2) Pro athlete 3) Acclaimed Writer 4) Vineyard owner 5) Scion of wealth magnate of any major industry. But, when I was applying for those jobs, I didn't have the skills, capital, or lineage needed to make it happen. I went for my fall-back, but I am very happy.

  22. bkpa2med

    bkpa2med 10+ Year Member

    Jun 26, 2004
    I guess we need to get better acquainted with something similar to
  23. tibor75

    tibor75 Member 5+ Year Member

    May 11, 2006
    "The insurance industry has created a slave workforce out of the doctor," says Moshe Rubin

    Maybe you need to be placed in the hold of a ship and carried thousands of miles from your home before you make that generalization, moron.
  24. edinOH

    edinOH Can I get a work excuse? 7+ Year Member

    Nov 13, 2002

    And please keep thinking that! ;)

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