Medicine or Finance?

[theduke]

Hey people. I'm trying to decide between going into finance or medicine. I'm passionate about both subjects and could read the Wall Street Journal or Principles of Neural Science endlessly. I suppose I could do well in either but I just can't choose.

My work priorities in life are (in order):
1. Working hard as I can and pushing myself to the limit
2. Starting and building something positive regardless of risk (doing research or starting a company)
3. Being the best at it

Maximizing earning potential is important but not a priority. I suppose in the end, even medicine is a business but I can't choose between them. Anyone else have the same question?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Apparition]

I also had a hard time deciding to pursue medicine and I still have doubts. If you haven't yet, you should consider volunteering in a hospital or a clinic to see how you like the setting.

 

[Northerner]

Originally posted by theduke
Hey people. I'm trying to decide between going into finance or medicine. I'm passionate about both subjects and could read the Wall Street Journal or Principles of Neural Science endlessly. I suppose I could do well in either but I just can't choose.

My work priorities in life are (in order):
1. Working hard as I can and pushing myself to the limit
2. Starting and building something positive regardless of risk (doing research or starting a company)
3. Being the best at it

Maximizing earning potential is important but not a priority. I suppose in the end, even medicine is a business but I can't choose between them. Anyone else have the same question?

Ok, I can give you some experienced feedback on the business/medicine conundrum if you're interested, and give you some of the conclusions I've come to. PM me if you want my take on it.

 

[Downhill Racer]

Why dont you further your interest in medicine with clincial/research/volunteer experiences. Also supplement these with internships in finance at investment banks, start-ups, etc... A biotech company may be a logical intersection of both interests but I think you should explore both career choices, talk to those who have already made decisions to enter the fields you are considering...

Good Luck!

 

[doctorcynical]

MD/MBA?

 

[Downhill Racer]

Hey Northener,

I'd be interested in hearing your take on Med vs. Biz... I tried to PM you but you box was full, FYI.

 

[theduke]

Thanks for the replies!

An MD/MBA program combines medicine and health management which is a different industry from financial services (so I'm not too interested in that).

I have done research and co-authored a few papers and volunteered and it was a blast serving people. I've also interned at UBS and enjoyed the Wall Street culture. So I've done the homework and still trying to choose.

I suppose one thing to consider is the future of finance or medicine. My inclination is to enter finance because so many physicians keep predicting a decline for the physician's role in the health care industry.

 

[oldtimer]

Why don't you give finance a try first? It will broaden your perspectives on life and see what other careers are like outside of medicine. If you don't like it, you can always return to medicine in a year or two.

 

[crazy250]

do medicine, it's more rewarding to help someone than to lie, steal, and cheat other people's money as most business people do.

 

[lowbudget]

Did biotech/medtech private equity 2 years after undergrad for a european fund in nyc, now 3rd yr med.

Looks like the "window" is opening back up in ibanking. I say, do finance first but grow up to be a doctor. Banking windows come in waves... it's feast or famine, but medicine will always be there. Working in banking/finance is a real good "real world" experience. It may or may not get you ready for med school, but it will get you ready for the real world and all the bullsh.it it has to offer. At the same time, they pay fu.cking good money. Be smart. Tuck it away for med school. Remember that all the glory and riches in banking comes crashing down at any moment and that in banking no matter how high you get, you are ALWAYS someone's bi.tch. So while you're doing it, be a prostitute and use them as much as they will use you (everyone wins). Being out of school, making good fu.cking money, in a big city... live it up and get it out of your system. And when you're ready to grow up, be a responsible adult, use your given-talents to care for those who can't care for themselves, and live beyond your own selfish world, join the ranks of medicine. It's easier to make it to the big money (partner/managing director) in finance than it is in medicine (surgical subspecialty), but it's possible to if you want it in medicine. And once you're in medicine, there's nothing that could keep you from going back into banking (other than your family and your conscience). Just make sure you ALWAYS have a back up if you're in banking (medicine)... it's possible to be enslaved in it. As my very own managing director told me, "the key is to accumulate as much 'fu.ck off money' as you can, and then walk because you can."

One more advice: if you're thinking of getting "clinical" exposure to decide if you want medicine or banking, find something of comparable excitement... take some community college classes and be a EMT/paramedic and go for some rides.

But there are many more people on these forums who have much much more life experience than me. Keep asking questions. You're bound to be inspired.

 

[theduke]

I agree there are many people in finance (like your manager) who are in it for the money but it is possible to be passionate about finance for its own sake - look at Warren Buffett, Jamie Dimon, Charles Schwab who plan to work till they die.

I probably fit in the second category (I don't claim to have their skill). That said, I'm trying to see career opportunities in medicine and finance much much beyond just salary.

Does anyone know the opportunities for MD's in the biotech industry?

 

[Paws]

Dude, Wall St is totally awesome - I second the idea of doing it for a couple of years and then getting the h$ll out of Dodge before the next wave collapses. Take the money and RUN! Also, what you learn in finance can help you enormously as a physician.

The skill sets are very similar as well, as you probably found working at UBS (great firm!). These skills will definitely help you when after about two years of having your head ground down by the intense pressure, etc, you decide to walk away and do the medical thing. The b#ll busting environment (oh, did I just say the B word???) will make the worst attending physican look like Mary Poppins. No lie -

Wall St is a life changing expereince if you can get the opportunity to actually work in one of the top firms - you will be transformed and you will grow more than you can imagine.

 

[lowbudget]

No. It is not possible. This is not academia, dude. This is Wall Street. It is about money. And it is only about money. Don't get me wrong, it's fun and exciting and there are cool people and nice people out there who smile. But it is about money. When bankers hire you, it is your job to make them money. Period. Without breaking the law and bringing shame.

You spent a summer with UBS. You should know all this. It's about being #1. It's about talking to the right people, making the best deal you can get, and closing the deal.

It would be unreasonable for the company to ask you to make them as much money as possible without them sharing the wealth with you. That is the system, and everyone knows it. When you don't make money, or your division, or your office, or your firm... you're gone. All that other crap like "culture" and "corporate family" are all a bunch of lies and illusions they tell you so that you won't leave when you're making money for them.

The 3 guys you mentioned? No one would be saying their names if they didn't make money. And I have no doubt those guys will work until they die. It's because they love to make money, and they're good at it. Wall Street is EXTREMELY brutal because everyone knows your score. Everyone knows how much money you made and how much you lost. That's just the way it is.

That's at least how it's like on the financial side (buy-side or sell-side). If you're interested on the corporate side, an MD can be a sales rep (but why?), clinical director (in charge of clinical trials), physician "education" (which is booked under sales and marketing expense), research (bench work)... and of course you can make your way up to overhead (CEO, COO, CSO). Some do business development where they form alliances with other firms and look for mergers and acquisition possibilities (but that's usually an MBA or JD type work, but you can be trained).

There're plenty of opportunity with an MD in industry. You have no call. And your hours are typically better, as is your pay.

 

[theduke]

lowbudget,

Of course Wall Street is about money. All business is about generating revenue and profit. Universities hire top academics for grant money and reputation which brings them more money. I meant these guys don't work because they need $1 mil more - they actually love and thrive on the cutthroat nature.

Any notable MD's that have made an impact in biotech? It seems to be dominated by PhDs

 

[lowbudget]

Ooo... got me there. I'm sure there are some but I can't name any notable MDs who've made an impact in biotech ... I just don't know my biotech history all that well.

Typically, for drugs at least, what happens is someone (med school/biotech research) discovers a "target" protein, then passes the protein to a medicinal/organic chemist to develop a molecule to block it, picks a "lead" molecule, hands it off to vets and biologists to animal test it, then hands it off to physicians to test it in humans (development). During this time, they can choose to "partner-out" if they want to (i.e. hand it off to a larger pharmaceutical company with better manufacturing capacity, clinical testing network, FDA know-how, commerical marketing capacity) for different payment schedules that compensates for the amount of risk that is eliminated as the molecule moves through the trials. This is mainly a business decision.

So when you say "impact" there are a lot of people involved, which typically starts with the PhD's as starters, MDs in the middle, and MBAs as closers. And depending on the company, the leadership will reflect which stage the company is in. A PhD will very likely be a CEO of a company in discovery, an MD in clinical development, and an MBA in commerical mode. So there will be many MDs in leadership positions, but they may or may not have an impact because we have yet to see whether or not their drugs will be successful. And typically, if the company is intent on building a pharmaceutical company out of a biotech company, they will replace leadership as the company matures. If the company decides to outsource their commercial capacity, or outsource their discovery capacity, the leadership will reflect what kind of skills they have in-house... but these aren't absolutes. Other times, they get bought out, and the MDs/PhDs move on to the next start-up.

CEOs are typically the public figure for the company. They lead the company strategically, but not on the day-to-day. They also go out on the road and raise money, which means that they need to know people and know business... which is why a lot of the successful biotechs (oxymoron) have business people leading them (Amgen is the classical biotech). MDs and PhDs typically are pushed to the side because they spend too much of their lives in training and therefore don't usually get the job, unless they themselves have left medicine for a while and been in the business for a long time.

But if you want to read up on various public biotech companies and the people behind them, check out the websites of these companies (go to About Us, Management, Board)... Management tends to be people in the industry, MDs, PhDs... while Board people will include investor/Wall Street, people from other businesses, MDs, PhDs, whatever. The bios talk about all their successes and so you can worship them as you please. Obviously, none of them will talk about their failures:

Amgen, Cephalon, Chiron, Genentech, Genzyme, Gilead, Human Genome Science, Medimmune, Millenium, Sepracor, Teva, Vertex,

I don't think I answered your question at all.

 

[NYGirl12]

Originally posted by Apparition
... If you haven't yet, you should consider volunteering in a hospital or a clinic to see how you like the setting.

or you can always shadow a doctor. get a first-hand view of how it is to be a doctor and i guess, from there you can tell whether you want to be one or not.

 

[theduke]

Thanks for the info lowbudget.

 

[calcrew14]

If theduke has about $200,000 seed money to spend for a med/business school in his pocket right now, then he could start to learn how to make those $ work in Wall Street or other business such as some partnership in McDonalds Franchise etc right away. He doesn't even have to go to either a med school or a business school for a career at all. Especially in the Wall Street mele, all he needs, additionally, are an online computer, few good books and time for on-the-job-training-himself. Any part or full time employment could be either a safety net or recreational break. He would need this supplement only if he would put all the seed $ in a bank the way a respectable senile soul does, though.

The best scenario could have been an acceptance by the Uniform Service on top of those Wall Street experiences. But our Dear Uncle and his Dpt of Offense seem to have been too active , recently.

What should theduke do in case he is without the seed $? He probably should go to a medical school with all those enviable financial aids so that he can enjoy exploring his financial hobby. (Quit the SDN Forum, would he please!) If he would want to have the excitement of the real business world that people have discussed above, then he needs to go to a business school. Not a bad choice though. I bet that his experiences in the business career could really challenge the excitement of the crap shooting contest in some professional school application process.

What if theduke decides to go to a business school? My crystal ball is telling me that by the time theduke would become a formidable CEO, he probably wished that he went to a med school because any self made trillionaire could have a shot at it without going to a business school.

Good luck either way.

 

[theduke]

Calcrew,

Thanks for the reply though I don't really understand what you are saying. I think the whole stay at home investor thing is overhyped.

At my internship, I realized the ones who do the most homework are the best investors and you need the resources these firms have to be really succesful.

 

[bonez318ti]

I was a finance major and did consulting for a couple years.

Although the money is great, in business you are always someone else's b*tch. You are always after the next scam. The SOLE purpose of business is to make a buck. I didn't want to get trapped into that cycle (its hard to walk away from $150k/year when you are 29 to be a poor student again).

Finance is literally, a bunch of people manipulating money to make more money. After taking so much, there is very little they contribute back to society.

Yea. I'm jaded. Wall street is a bunch of greedy crooks.

 

[nrddct]

ya'll should watch the movie " Wall Street" by oliver stone.

 

[calcrew14]

Originally posted by theduke
Calcrew,

Thanks for the reply though I don't really understand what you are saying. I think the whole stay at home investor thing is overhyped.

At my internship, I realized the ones who do the most homework are the best investors and you need the resources these firms have to be really succesful.

You've got the right key words in "investment" and "home investment." I also want to point out that $200,000 is a lot of money to pay for a pro degree. One may have a much easier life along an alternative pathway, if he has already had that amount of seed money to begin with.

I have witnessed a home investor doing well in the market. He told me that Wall Street is the only casino in this world that everyone wins, a gamblers' eutopia. He is willing to let his son have a choice between $200,000 cash and a road to M.D. all expenses paid for. He sees no need for his son to struggle all the way to Wall street like those doctors. You probably know that all doctors, one way or another, eventually find themselves active in Wall Street.

If it wasn't for the frequent war activities. That Street Layman would encourage his son to take advantage of the benefit from the Uniformed Health Services, a military school that pays stipen and the following residency training years count toward the retirement eligibility. At present, it is good only for someone who has or doesn't mind short life expectancy.

But if you don't have the seed $, then medical school is both a good resource and safety net for your ambition. In my book, you don't really need a business school to be succesful in Wall Street. I guess that the strategies between "insiders" and others are different.

 

[kito]

Originally posted by calcrew14
In my book, you don't really need a business school to be succesful in Wall Street. I guess that the strategies between "insiders" and others are different.

Correctamundo.

 

[lowbudget]

You don't need to go to business school to be successful. And you don't need it to do well on Wall Street. But if you did go to business school, you would've learned that the only person who gets rich off "home investments" are the people who charge cover to walk into the casino. If you're remotely thinking of med school, you're too smart to be daytrading. There's no way your little $200,000 can compete with the billion dollar funds. If you trade on day-to-day volatility, you give your profits to the bank in transaction costs. And I guarantee you there's no way sitting at home with your Road Runner that you can get you public information faster than the big boys. And even if it can, the bankers would rather make 1 big transaction with a big boy than 100 little ones with "home investors;" they'll execute your orders after everyone else has made their money. You just can't move fast enough with enough authority to make meaningful money, unless you chase market or speculate with risk. Unless you truly believe you have a better insight than the rest of the market who receives information faster than you and can move prices just by sneezing, I'd put my money with people I can trust.

At the end of the day, it's more exciting to watch someone's vitals go down than it is to watch prices go down. But that's me. But if you do some time on the Street, you'll at least have an appreciation for "how it works" outside Securities Analysis 101.

 

[calcrew14]

Originally posted by lowbudget
You don't need to go to business school to be successful. And you don't need it to do well on Wall Street. But if you did go to business school, you would've learned that the only person who gets rich off "home investments" are the people who charge cover to walk into the casino. If you're remotely thinking of med school, you're too smart to be daytrading. There's no way your little $200,000 can compete with the billion dollar funds. If you trade on day-to-day volatility, you give your profits to the bank in transaction costs. And I guarantee you there's no way sitting at home with your Road Runner that you can get you public information faster than the big boys. And even if it can, the bankers would rather make 1 big transaction with a big boy than 100 little ones with "home investors;" they'll execute your orders after everyone else has made their money. You just can't move fast enough with enough authority to make meaningful money, unless you chase market or speculate with risk. Unless you truly believe you have a better insight than the rest of the market who receives information faster than you and can move prices just by sneezing, I'd put my money with people I can trust.

At the end of the day, it's more exciting to watch someone's vitals go down than it is to watch prices go down. But that's me. But if you do some time on the Street, you'll at least have an appreciation for "how it works" outside Securities Analysis 101.

Every part of your post is legit. The only exception is at the bottom line. It has already been done, even with all those handicaps. And the Street can't take back a significant amount of the stake from the man anymore. But I am not going to detail his life here. I will only add that even with millions of $ he has made, the man still wish that he could practice all of those Wisdoms in the Street the way he should.

If $200,000 is too tiny, may be his son should find some partner of the like kind. Do you think $600,000 to start with would be enough? You know, the man has three sons. How about additional 600,000 more from some other pre meds here.....

 

[calcrew14]

Originally posted by ankitovich
Correctamundo.

Thanks. Looks like the vocabulary market has not been too kind to you now that you have to depend on your collection item and some smilie for everyday life. You aren't trying to corner the vocab market, are you?

 

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by theduke
I suppose one thing to consider is the future of finance or medicine. My inclination is to enter finance because so many physicians keep predicting a decline for the physician's role in the health care industry.

theduke,

There are problems in any field you choose to go into. Although IT is leading the outsourcing trend right now, the financial service and accounting industries aren't far behind. The Gartner Group, a leading research outfit, predicts that something like 3.3 million jobs will be shipped overseas by 2007. I personally know of many people who have been affected by outsourcing. Any job that does not require geographic locality and can be done at a computer is one that can be done anywhere in the world. This is the premise behind why outsourcing is so popular and I believe rightly so. The purpose of any for-profit business is to drive efficiency and reduce costs to increase profits. If I am a CEO, my top priority is to increase the bottom line to please the owners of the company, ie, the shareholders. There are lots of articles floating around on this topic. Do a google search.

 

[calcrew14]

Originally posted by oldtimer
theduke,

There are problems in any field you choose to go into. Although IT is leading the outsourcing trend right now, the financial service and accounting industries aren't far behind.

I understand that we used to import labors and drain some brain from all over the world. Does this outsourcing trend means something like an opportunity for repatriation or reversed drainage? Is it possible that, sometime in the future, many medical school graduates here will practice their medicine abroad? That would have some impact on medical school selection!

 

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by calcrew14
I understand that we used to import labors and drain some brain from all over the world. Does this outsourcing trend means something like an opportunity for repatriation or reversed drainage? Is it possible that, sometime in the future, many medical school graduates here will practice their medicine abroad? That would have some impact on medical school selection!

Although a few SDNers will disagree with me *cough* radrules *cough*, medicine is not immune to outsourcing either. At the top of the list, radiology is a juicy target to outsource because 1) work can be done anywhere -- at home, office, or overseas 2) radiologists are highly compensated. Pathology is also a target because slides can be digitized and evaluated at any computer. Medicine is unlike other fields like IT because human lives are at stake and there are myriad laws preventing the wholesale shipment of jobs. However, do you think that HMO's aren't salivating at the thought of reducing costs? These dire predictions may or may not come true. Nobody really knows for sure. You can be sure though that when I choose my specialty I'll be keeping a very close eye on the future trends.

 

[theduke]

Outsourcing will definetly effect medicine, especially academic research, radiology, and, in the future, surgery. The truth is there are equally brilliant minds and talents in India and China who are willing to work for less. Business always trumps patriotism, loyalty etc.

Overall, I think outsourcing is better for society as well. We lose individually but growing economies win big.

 

[lowbudget]

"We" is very loosely defined. I usually like to think about social utility in reference to "I". Having a parent who's job has only recently been outsourced to India and China, I can't really claim that lower "costs" that trickle down to me, the consumer, is greater than the loss in income by my parent. It just all depends on who you are and whether you stand to win or lose. Someone has to.

Interesting article attached... describes the types of jobs that will tend to have a longer shelf life in the US economy.

 

[hadokenny]

This is what my dad always tells me. "There will always be people getting sick and getting old. There will always be a need for physicians. And no matter how bad the economy is, physicians will never be unemployed."

My dad is a businessman/investor by the way.

 

[calcrew14]

FYI: Here in the U.S.A. , an uninsured patient will receive a medical bill of $500,000 soon after she is discharged from a bone marrow transplant unit. The same amount of services could have cost health insurance companies only $100,000 for each of their patients.

Is there a place in this world that I can have a bone marrow transplant done for....$20,000-25,000? The answer is yes. I heard that the oncologists are smart and the hospital treat their patients as if they were some CEO. PM me when you need one.

Hi Hadokenny, your dad could have been correct even more if he had referred to the Uniformed Health Services or medical career in some other parts of this world. Over here, the fact could easily be nullified by the $200,000 in red and the opportunity to be invited to a malpractice litigation. I have just learned from a newspaper that it is illegal to do the sin of doctors shopping nowadays. Looks like the real need for physicians here is only in military communities. That's why they pay their medical students well.