Memorization or critical thinking in years 1 and 2?

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chuck84

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So I loved that most of my science courses during college were based on enhancing our ability to think critically and steered clear of straight up memorization. I've heard that the first two years of med school are pretty much memorization and am kinda not looking forward to that o-chem approach to learning starting in a couple of weeks. Any of you med students have a different experience or are you all just memorization robots now?
 
So I loved that most of my science courses during college were based on enhancing our ability to think critically and steered clear of straight up memorization. I've heard that the first two years of med school are pretty much memorization and am kinda not looking forward to that o-chem approach to learning starting in a couple of weeks. Any of you med students have a different experience or are you all just memorization robots now?

Actually I felt like o-chem took a lot of understanding-- visualizing 3-d structure, imagining the active groups and which electrons would do what, understanding the general principles of how molecules interact. Med school often doesn't even give you that. For instance in biochem I learned the material by writing the names of the molecules (don't even know what they look like) out on a dry erase board tens of times until I memorized all of the names in sequence for a given reaction, like the Krebs cycle. That is straight memorization, and it's common.

Other things require some understanding, visualization, etc and everything is easier if you try to understand how it could fit into a clinical picture and why it matters, but one of my biggest disappointments in med school was the sheer grind of it.
 
in the first year its pretty much memorization, with the exception of physiology. In the second year, pathology should be mostly conceptual but it has its fair share of memorization as well (random syndromes and what not). Micro is pretty much memorization. Pharm is tons of memorization only cuz they make you learn all of the names for no reason (hello smart phone), but the part that actually matters about pharm (the mechanisms of drugs and their side effects) is mostly conceptual. however even in that there's a lot of "well thats just what it does" or "we dont konw why, but thats a side effect."
 
It is a lot of memorization.. but repetition is key not rote memorization.. you'll be suprised what a full day of studying and a few hours of sleep can do.
 
I don't know for sure yet because I'm about to become an M1 in 2 weeks, but I've been told by others that have gone before me that year 1 is mostly memorization. With that said...

Can Intelligent Katie Solve Some Foreign Mafia Operation?
 
Unfortunately it is all memorization, and this doesn't stop years 1-2. The shelf exams during the ward time are based on buzzwords and memorization and have nothing to do with what you learn in the real world. There is almost no thinking in medical school. Any monkey who can work hard and study all of the time can do medical school, sadly enough.

This is a key component of medical education that needs reform.
 
So I loved that most of my science courses during college were based on enhancing our ability to think critically and steered clear of straight up memorization. I've heard that the first two years of med school are pretty much memorization and am kinda not looking forward to that o-chem approach to learning starting in a couple of weeks. Any of you med students have a different experience or are you all just memorization robots now?

"You get what you reward"


Unforunately, medical school admissions has selected for a certain type of person. The people more likely to be accepted are those that do well on multiple choic exams (the MCAT) and who get good grades. While you might pull a few As in the English Lit course in undergrad, or the Spanish Intro (when you've already taken 6 years in middle/high school) the thing that separates applicants to medical school is their science GPA)(thus why so much discussion is spent on it in the forums for pre-allo). To achieve success at Multiple Choice exams and science course requires a good deal of memorization. Thus, as a system, we self select for machines: people with their own study strategies to retain the knowledge required to pass the test. I would argue few people actually engage that knoweldge in an attempt to understand it well. Why bother? Afterall, how much physics or o-chem is going to be used in medical school?

Since the evaluation criteria hasn't changed... that is, most of your grades in medical school are directed by multiple choice exams and Step 1. You get what you reward. So, people memorize. People good at memorizing do what they do best. And most, do very little else. And then these basic science students become clerkship students. And they realize that if they do well on the shelf, they do well in the course. So, they do what they do best. They memorize. Worse, they memorize with intention of forgetting. Just tell me whats on the test.

And then you become an intern. And ****. No multiple choice exams. No grades. No memorization. Here, the master memorizer, the memorize-to-forget phenomena, falter. Only here do some people realize that they need intense clinical reasoning, deductive power, to succeed.

And so the bustling intern now has to redefine how they think. Jump back to MS1. What if, instead of just memorizing, you actually learned with the intention to understand, to manipulate the vairables, to become profoundly ingrained with the content? You'd know more, you'd think better. But chances are you would NOT perform better on the test. After all, what separtes honors from high pass in pathology is whether you can recognize the risk factors for marfan's aortic dissection vs syphilitic aortitis dissection (as opposed to HOLY CRAP! YOU'RE DISSECTING!).

Why such a long and convulded post? I am often verbose, but there is a point. This year I have received a number of compliments from my fellow interns. They perceive me as - smarter - or somehow more - impressive -. I don't say this to brag. I think I'm with some pretty brilliant people, far smarter than I. Yet I impress them because I can reason through problems, I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Is there memorization? OF COURSE. We have to accumulate a wealth of information, a fund of knowledge, greater than any other professional in the country. But its how you apply it. Its how it fits. What makes you a better doctor is understanding the human condition.

Anyone can follow an algorythm. Anyone can memorize a couple of facts. Thats what most physicians, physician assisstants, and nurse practitioners do. What separates a great physician from a good one is how well they understand what they learn.
Bottom line: you will be rewarded in life if you take the time to understand now, even if you aren't as 'competitive' as your classmates. The short-term rewards of good grades do not outweight the long-term rewards of profound understanding.
 
Bottom line: you will be rewarded in life if you take the time to understand now, even if you aren't as 'competitive' as your classmates. The short-term rewards of good grades do not outweight the long-term rewards of profound understanding.

Great post.
 
"You get what you reward"


Unforunately, medical school admissions has selected for a certain type of person. The people more likely to be accepted are those that do well on multiple choic exams (the MCAT) and who get good grades. While you might pull a few As in the English Lit course in undergrad, or the Spanish Intro (when you've already taken 6 years in middle/high school) the thing that separates applicants to medical school is their science GPA)(thus why so much discussion is spent on it in the forums for pre-allo). To achieve success at Multiple Choice exams and science course requires a good deal of memorization. Thus, as a system, we self select for machines: people with their own study strategies to retain the knowledge required to pass the test. I would argue few people actually engage that knoweldge in an attempt to understand it well. Why bother? Afterall, how much physics or o-chem is going to be used in medical school?

Since the evaluation criteria hasn't changed... that is, most of your grades in medical school are directed by multiple choice exams and Step 1. You get what you reward. So, people memorize. People good at memorizing do what they do best. And most, do very little else. And then these basic science students become clerkship students. And they realize that if they do well on the shelf, they do well in the course. So, they do what they do best. They memorize. Worse, they memorize with intention of forgetting. Just tell me whats on the test.

And then you become an intern. And ****. No multiple choice exams. No grades. No memorization. Here, the master memorizer, the memorize-to-forget phenomena, falter. Only here do some people realize that they need intense clinical reasoning, deductive power, to succeed.

And so the bustling intern now has to redefine how they think. Jump back to MS1. What if, instead of just memorizing, you actually learned with the intention to understand, to manipulate the vairables, to become profoundly ingrained with the content? You'd know more, you'd think better. But chances are you would NOT perform better on the test. After all, what separtes honors from high pass in pathology is whether you can recognize the risk factors for marfan's aortic dissection vs syphilitic aortitis dissection (as opposed to HOLY CRAP! YOU'RE DISSECTING!).

Why such a long and convulded post? I am often verbose, but there is a point. This year I have received a number of compliments from my fellow interns. They perceive me as - smarter - or somehow more - impressive -. I don't say this to brag. I think I'm with some pretty brilliant people, far smarter than I. Yet I impress them because I can reason through problems, I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Is there memorization? OF COURSE. We have to accumulate a wealth of information, a fund of knowledge, greater than any other professional in the country. But its how you apply it. Its how it fits. What makes you a better doctor is understanding the human condition.

Anyone can follow an algorythm. Anyone can memorize a couple of facts. Thats what most physicians, physician assisstants, and nurse practitioners do. What separates a great physician from a good one is how well they understand what they learn.
Bottom line: you will be rewarded in life if you take the time to understand now, even if you aren't as 'competitive' as your classmates. The short-term rewards of good grades do not outweight the long-term rewards of profound understanding.

Thank you for saying this. I've been telling people this ever since med school began and it usually gets me ridiculed. "If you want to match well, you need a high class rank and great board scores, silly."

No ****.

But to become an excellent clinician, you also need to be able to reason through unusual situations and/or presentations.

In other words, you need to know how to hit the curveballs. Medical school often seems to train everyone as if every pitch is going to be a level fastball.
 
Medical school is pretty much all verbal intelligence (and people skills are important last two years). Some memorization is required, but recognition is more important than recall.

There's a lot of visual spatial intelligence required to be great at anatomy, but since most MDs are verbal-dominant anyway, you'll probably never be called out on it. Relations are more important than understanding absolute configuration in space.
 
1st semester; Critical Thinking: all passes, one NH, always behind on studying

2nd semester; Memorize the notes cause thats what they test on: Hs in all but one course

Preclinical is a game of time management and cramming. Can you learn and apply what you need for the exam in the time given? If yes, you get H. Surprisingly, this is closer to actual medical practice than you might think. That said, you should understand each process you study. The minutiae gets you the H but the understanding that lets you recall the minutiae will help you later.
 
verbal intelligence? can you explain what you mean? in at least the way i interpret your statement, i don't agree at all. but i'm just a m2.

Medical school is pretty much all verbal intelligence (and people skills are important last two years). Some memorization is required, but recognition is more important than recall.

There's a lot of visual spatial intelligence required to be great at anatomy, but since most MDs are verbal-dominant anyway, you'll probably never be called out on it. Relations are more important than understanding absolute configuration in space.
 
verbal intelligence? can you explain what you mean? in at least the way i interpret your statement, i don't agree at all. but i'm just a m2.

Verbal as opposed to mathematical intelligence, as opposed to visual spatial intelligence. Don't need to be above average in the latter two to excel in med school.
 
you must first memorize the necessary material and only then will you be ready for critical thinking
 
you must first memorize the necessary material and only then will you be ready for critical thinking
Meh, that's a truism. There's plenty of stuff in the first 2 years - M1 in particular - that doesn't connect with anything else and plenty more that isn't significant enough to bother trying to integrate into a larger framework.
 
Thank you for saying this. I've been telling people this ever since med school began and it usually gets me ridiculed. "If you want to match well, you need a high class rank and great board scores, silly."

No ****.

But to become an excellent clinician, you also need to be able to reason through unusual situations and/or presentations.

In other words, you need to know how to hit the curveballs. Medical school often seems to train everyone as if every pitch is going to be a level fastball.

So, perhaps the system is f***ed?
 
The way you retain long term memory is by understanding the big picture first. Then, go over the details. To build a house, you build a wooden frame and then add the bricks later, not the other way around.

I disagree that memorizing and then discovering concepts is the way to go. For example, try to remember when you last read a fairy tale. Any child can recollect the story if he notices the big picture concepts, but someone who tries to memorize the words won't understand anything. You don't memorize a story word by word like "Once...upon....a....time....there...was...a....prince...", you get the big picture. Anyone else that does otherwise is going about it much more stressfully.


With that said, there is a great deal of memorization to medical school, no way around that. But if you take the time to integrate and understand the material, you'll come out ahead in the long term. Good luck.
 
M1 is a lot of memorization. It's boring to be honest. You often learn things without understanding how they fit into a disease state or what you can do about it. At the end of the day, it's tedious but pretty easy to pass. Learn it once...but don't fret too much. You'll forget pretty much all of it by the end of MS1 summer and have to re-learn it for boards anyway. God pray you're at a P/F school because it makes life way better.

M2 material is harder, denser, etc. But infinitely more fun. Pharm is a lot of memorization, but also an understanding of concepts. I found pharm to be the most helpful in understanding normal and disease states (and even remembering pathology), just by working to understand their mechanism of action and how that affects larger things are occurring in a disease. Pathology can be a lot of memorization and linking random names for pathology slide findings with an appropriate disease (hemosidiren laden macrophages always comes to mind). I feel like it's a lot of associations. Physiology can be annoying and the one area I always forget instantly. I thought our days of having to learn math equations were over. Le sigh.

Having said that, if you're at a P/F school....my advice is to f*ck class. Maintain a passing score on each exam, but honestly....just study Step 1 material, do QBanks, etc. while you're in each organ block/system/etc. It'll make studying for actual boards much easier. And no one cares about your pre-clin grades anyway. Your goals for MS1/MS2 should be (in order). (1) Pass your classes (2) Study Boards Material (3) Think About Specialty Choice/Get in Some Research/Pad your Resume/Make Connections (4) Have lots of fun (5) Last Priority: Do anything above "pass" in your classes.
 
So I loved that most of my science courses during college were based on enhancing our ability to think critically and steered clear of straight up memorization. I've heard that the first two years of med school are pretty much memorization and am kinda not looking forward to that o-chem approach to learning starting in a couple of weeks. Any of you med students have a different experience or are you all just memorization robots now?

You definitely need both. need o-chem type memory and then be able to use it critically.
 
you must first memorize the necessary material and only then will you be ready for critical thinking

You don't actually think med students lack the ability to critically solve complex problems? In some of my college bio courses, we learned the material and had to apply what we learned to a foreign topic. Why could this not be done in the early years of med school? Especially since a good doc must successfully deduce, infer and reason.
 
You don't actually think med students lack the ability to critically solve complex problems? In some of my college bio courses, we learned the material and had to apply what we learned to a foreign topic. Why could this not be done in the early years of med school? Especially since a good doc must successfully deduce, infer and reason.

For subjects like physiology and pathophysiology which are mostly concept related, you can reason your way through a problem. However, for microbio and a lot of pharm, you have to memorize a large chunk before you can use that knowledge and apply it to problems. For example, a young boy comes to your clinic with fever, headache, stiff neck and when asked, will give you a history of swimming in freshwater lake weeks earlier. Gram stain reveals no bacteria but CSF is similar to a bacterial meningitis. Now, if you didn't memorize your protozoa, all the critical reasoning skills wont help you come up with the diagnosis. Btw, it's Naegleria Fowleri.
 
Unfortunately, it is a lot of memorization. Some courses, like respiratory or renal, will have conceptual material, but it's still a lot of memorization. Spatial or mathematical ability probably won't help a ton, because, again, a lot of it requires memorizing words (even anatomy--I could probably draw everything out, but heck if I remember all of the terms for those nerves/arteries/ligaments)...
 
For subjects like physiology and pathophysiology which are mostly concept related, you can reason your way through a problem. However, for microbio and a lot of pharm, you have to memorize a large chunk before you can use that knowledge and apply it to problems. For example, a young boy comes to your clinic with fever, headache, stiff neck and when asked, will give you a history of swimming in freshwater lake weeks earlier. Gram stain reveals no bacteria but CSF is similar to a bacterial meningitis. Now, if you didn't memorize your protozoa, all the critical reasoning skills wont help you come up with the diagnosis. Btw, it's Naegleria Fowleri.

In which case your memorization doesn't matter, he's f***ed.
 
In my experience, the people who ended up blowing away Step I (260+) were the top memorizers in my class (some of whom were good "thinkers", and some of whom were not...). The people who were the top "critical thinkers" but lacked memorization skills generally landed in the 240-259 range. Just based on my school alone, I'd say the memorizers fared better in the end, while the "thinkers" were the people who generally had higher MCAT scores back in the day. A couple examples: One of my friends here scored 13/13/15 on the MCAT, is a great thinker, and scored a 243 on step one. Two of my other friends scored <36 on the MCAT but one landed at 262 and one at 264-- they are memorizing machines. I consider myself a top-notch thinker and a below-average memorizer (not just compared to med students), and I had a 39 MCAT (99th percentile) but only a 252 step I (~93rd percentile) [I don't mean "only" 252 in a bad way; just illustrating the drop in percentile, even after accounting for the fact the med student pool is the best half of the MCAT pool. I would have expected ~98th percentile if I had performed relatively as well, but MCAT skills and Step I skills are different]

Anecdotal, but it's SDN...
 
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In my experience, the people who ended up blowing away Step I (260+) were the top memorizers in my class (some of whom were good "thinkers", and some of whom were not...). The people who were the top "critical thinkers" but lacked memorization skills generally landed in the 240-259 range. Just based on my school alone, I'd say the memorizers fared better in the end, while the "thinkers" were the people who generally had higher MCAT scores back in the day. A couple examples: One of my friends here scored 13/13/15 on the MCAT, is a great thinker, and scored a 243 on step one. Two of my other friends scored <36 on the MCAT but one landed at 262 and one at 264-- they are memorizing machines. I consider myself a top-notch thinker and a below-average memorizer (not just compared to med students), and I had a 39 MCAT (99th percentile) but only a 252 step I (~93rd percentile) [I don't mean "only" 252 in a bad way; just illustrating the drop in percentile, even after accounting for the fact the med student pool is the best half of the MCAT pool. I would have expected ~98th percentile if I had performed relatively as well, but MCAT skills and Step I skills are different]

Anecdotal, but it's SDN...

For all purposes i think you could lump anything >=250 together making your logic pointless.
 
For all purposes i think you could lump anything >=250 together making your logic pointless.

My logic may be pointless, but my logic is logical. Also, I don't think you can lump all those scores together. If you tried to tell me I have the same chance at derm as my buddy who scored a 274, I'd probably disagree with you (and charting outcomes would support my assertion).
 
I think its both. You obviously have to memorize certain bugs, drugs, symptoms and ****. BUt as far as path, phys, tx, etc...you really have to understand the WHY and be able to apply it to certain scenarios
 
&quot;You get what you reward&quot;


Unforunately, medical school admissions has selected for a certain type of person. The people more likely to be accepted are those that do well on multiple choic exams (the MCAT) and who get good grades. While you might pull a few As in the English Lit course in undergrad, or the Spanish Intro (when you've already taken 6 years in middle/high school) the thing that separates applicants to medical school is their science GPA)(thus why so much discussion is spent on it in the forums for pre-allo). To achieve success at Multiple Choice exams and science course requires a good deal of memorization. Thus, as a system, we self select for machines: people with their own study strategies to retain the knowledge required to pass the test. I would argue few people actually engage that knoweldge in an attempt to understand it well. Why bother? Afterall, how much physics or o-chem is going to be used in medical school?

Since the evaluation criteria hasn't changed... that is, most of your grades in medical school are directed by multiple choice exams and Step 1. You get what you reward. So, people memorize. People good at memorizing do what they do best. And most, do very little else. And then these basic science students become clerkship students. And they realize that if they do well on the shelf, they do well in the course. So, they do what they do best. They memorize. Worse, they memorize with intention of forgetting. Just tell me whats on the test.

And then you become an intern. And ****. No multiple choice exams. No grades. No memorization. Here, the master memorizer, the memorize-to-forget phenomena, falter. Only here do some people realize that they need intense clinical reasoning, deductive power, to succeed.

And so the bustling intern now has to redefine how they think. Jump back to MS1. What if, instead of just memorizing, you actually learned with the intention to understand, to manipulate the vairables, to become profoundly ingrained with the content? You'd know more, you'd think better. But chances are you would NOT perform better on the test. After all, what separtes honors from high pass in pathology is whether you can recognize the risk factors for marfan's aortic dissection vs syphilitic aortitis dissection (as opposed to HOLY CRAP! YOU'RE DISSECTING!).

Why such a long and convulded post? I am often verbose, but there is a point. This year I have received a number of compliments from my fellow interns. They perceive me as - smarter - or somehow more - impressive -. I don't say this to brag. I think I'm with some pretty brilliant people, far smarter than I. Yet I impress them because I can reason through problems, I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Is there memorization? OF COURSE. We have to accumulate a wealth of information, a fund of knowledge, greater than any other professional in the country. But its how you apply it. Its how it fits. What makes you a better doctor is understanding the human condition.

Anyone can follow an algorythm. Anyone can memorize a couple of facts. Thats what most physicians, physician assisstants, and nurse practitioners do. What separates a great physician from a good one is how well they understand what they learn.
Bottom line: you will be rewarded in life if you take the time to understand now, even if you aren't as 'competitive' as your classmates. The short-term rewards of good grades do not outweight the long-term rewards of profound understanding.

This sums up how I've felt for a while now. Too many of my classmates just want to know enough to pass the exam and then get drunk and forget everything. The system is ridiculous. And I think students WANT to understand, that's why things like Goljan, Kaplan teachers and Pathoma are popular among students. It's just many of them are so short sighted and neurotic about doing well on the test, that they end up choosing doing well on test vs actually learning.

Also, if you understand, then you have that informtion long term. If you memorize solely to do well on the exam you only hurting yourself.

Practical advice for first two years: Try to use textbooks/online sources to understand the material you are covering. Don't go to class unless the teaches helps you understand. take the time to do this well and thoroughly and close to the exam, then cram the ******ed facts that profs test you on. You won't honor all your classes but this will make sure you have a solid foundation for the future and step 1 and you will likely be OK for your exams. Furthermore, you will likely study much less than your colleagues and enjoy the process more because if you understand, then you don't need to spend hours and hours memorizing because you can reason out more answers on MCQ exams
 
For all purposes i think you could lump anything >=250 together making your logic pointless.

please explain/elaborate.

there is a significant difference between a 250 and say a 275
 
please explain/elaborate.

there is a significant difference between a 250 and say a 275
I'm thinking of it sort of like the MCAT. Up to about 35-37, yeah, skill/knowledge/thinking/whatever plays an important role. Beyond that point, luck starts playing a huge role, IMO. Is there a difference between a 37 and a 43, for example? Yeah, on paper. Is there a real, significant difference in knowledge base/thinking ability between someone who scores a 37 and someone who got a 43? Probably not. :shrug:
 
I'm thinking of it sort of like the MCAT. Up to about 35-37, yeah, skill/knowledge/thinking/whatever plays an important role. Beyond that point, luck starts playing a huge role, IMO. Is there a difference between a 37 and a 43, for example? Yeah, on paper. Is there a real, significant difference in knowledge base/thinking ability between someone who scores a 37 and someone who got a 43? Probably not. :shrug:

Of course luck plays a role but I believe there is a difference between scoring in the ~90th percentile (250) versus 99th (275). The numerical difference between those 2 scores is 1 full SD.

The MCAT comparison is way off. In 2008 (the first google result I found) a 37 is 98th percentile and a 43 is 99.9. I agree, probably no significant difference there.
 
please explain/elaborate.

there is a significant difference between a 250 and say a 275

My logic may be pointless, but my logic is logical. Also, I don't think you can lump all those scores together. If you tried to tell me I have the same chance at derm as my buddy who scored a 274, I'd probably disagree with you (and charting outcomes would support my assertion).

I just think the way you analyzed a not that big of a deal score difference by the way people learn dumb. Do we even know how many more questions right the 275 had over the 250 lets say. And how much of it is dumb luck of remembering some minute small detail from a lecture that the other person didn't ever hear or remember. Now if you look at lets say idk 225 vs 250... it seems like the 250 holds alot more weight than a 225 in comparison and you could probably say that the 250 really knew their **** compared to the 225. Does that make any sense? It'd be the same standard deviation... correct me if im wrong.

edit: i should also add I'm assuming as your score goes higher each question gives you a greater bump in your score.. so 5 questions more right from a 225 wont give you lets say a 250 but 5 more right from a 250 can give u a 275 .. or something along those lines.
 
I just think the way you analyzed a not that big of a deal score difference by the way people learn dumb. Do we even know how many more questions right the 275 had over the 250 lets say. And how much of it is dumb luck of remembering some minute small detail from a lecture that the other person didn't ever hear or remember. Now if you look at lets say idk 225 vs 250... it seems like the 250 holds alot more weight than a 225 in comparison and you could probably say that the 250 really knew their **** compared to the 225. Does that make any sense? It'd be the same standard deviation... correct me if im wrong.

edit: i should also add I'm assuming as your score goes higher each question gives you a greater bump in your score.. so 5 questions more right from a 225 wont give you lets say a 250 but 5 more right from a 250 can give u a 275 .. or something along those lines.

275 holds a lot more weight than 250. In the competitive specialties 250's are not uncommon at all so a 250 while competitive won't really impress anyone in derm/rads/optho/integrated plastics etc. A 275 is still pretty uncommon and I'm willing to bet that the score alone will make up for the rest of the app just being decent at a lot of places.
 
275 holds a lot more weight than 250. In the competitive specialties 250's are not uncommon at all so a 250 while competitive won't really impress anyone in derm/rads/optho/integrated plastics etc. A 275 is still pretty uncommon and I'm willing to bet that the score alone will make up for the rest of the app just being decent at a lot of places.

Yeah that makes sense I'll agree with you on that point.
 
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