Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus?

[Nebraska1]

This is no disrespect to anyone out there, but I have been trying to be patient and be a good listener to my wife, but I can not stand seeing her so miserable at work any longer! And all I want to do is to solve all her problems! Has this ever happened to anyone else? I really need some guidance to help her build some confidence and be happy about going to work!

So here's the story: My wife is a pediatrics intern, AMG with excellent step 1/2, good grades. She went for Peds because she really liked the peds people that she worked with as a student, even though she could have gotten one of the ROAD specialties. Since third/forth year of med school, she would often come home feeling so bad because of one of her gunners classmates. She is quiet, soft spoken, and overall "passive" so she was never good at or wanted to schmooze like the other girls, yet she was always efficient and did a good job, so so far, she got good evaluations from every rotation. BUT deep inside, she feels miserable because she cannot escape how miserable she feels at work. We talked about how she might be overly sensitive, but at work, she constantly feels like no one respects or listens to her.

From what she's telling me, it sounds like she has a major inferiority complex. I know that it's winter time and she's over worked and we all have the intern blues every now and then, but I need to help her feel better about herself at work.

So my questions are:

1. Did anyone ever feel like they are NOT the most well-liked, NOT good at schmoozing, how did you get over this and still maintain your confidence to go on everyday?

2. Should I try harder to leave her alone to learn or deal with this by herself? (she's 26, gone straight from college/med school/residency without much "life" or work experience) OR try harder to help her?

3. Are there any guys out there who constantly feel the need to solve their significant other's problems, or VICE VERSA? How do I get over this and just be a good listener to keep on “validating” her feelings?

4. Am I crazy for being so happy and excited to be at the hospital even though i'm in the deepest student loan debt **** and still doing ok, and I have this urgent need to "make" my wife a happy intern like I am?

5. Should she switch to another field?

-ANY advice, suggestion, humor would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

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[error404]

1. Did anyone ever feel like they are NOT the most well-liked, NOT good at schmoozing, how did you get over this and still maintain your confidence to go on everyday?

2. Should I try harder to leave her alone to learn or deal with this by herself? (she's 26, gone straight from college/med school/residency without much "life" or work experience) OR try harder to help her?

3. Are there any guys out there who constantly feel the need to solve their significant other's problems, or VICE VERSA? How do I get over this and just be a good listener to keep on “validating” her feelings?

4. Am I crazy for being so happy and excited to be at the hospital even though i'm in the deepest student loan debt **** and still doing ok, and I have this urgent need to "make" my wife a happy intern like I am?

I don't have any answers.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is having a hard time. And I want to say, thank you for being a supportive husband.

Its possible that your wife could be depressed or dysthymic, which is something I understand to be fairly common in medicine. If she feels down a lot, its quite possible that talking to someone (you, her PD, or a therapist, depending) could be very useful. From your post, I didn't get the sense that she was unhappy because of anyone in particular, or that her residency is particularly malignant. And it sounds like this has been going on for a while. If she's willing to try and make a change, it will probably involve talking to someone to identify the issues.

2. Your wife is probably the best judge of how you can be supportive. I know there are times when I love my husband to help me solve problems, and times where I want to take care of them on my own.

3. My sense-- Guys feel this. A lot. And you know, as reflected in the title of your post. And from what I can tell, its very hard to turn off the "fix it" switch and learn to smile and nod.

4. You're not crazy. You might make some of us jealous, but being happy is nothing to be ashamed of. As for feeling the need to fix your wife... all I know is that it can be incredibly frustrating when you want to change someone who's not ready.

Good luck with everything.

 

[pdp2001]

if your wife has been feeling like this since her 3rd yr of med school and she's now an intern, perhaps she's depressed? if you think she's suffering from an inferiority complex, that could be true as well. but seeing as how she's your wife, i think this is something you would have noticed ages ago. while med school and residency are hard, a 3 year funk is probably due to something outside the hospital.

 

[Doowai]

I really need some guidance to help her build some confidence and be happy about going to work!

So here's the story: My wife is a pediatrics intern, AMG with excellent step 1/2, good grades.

1. Did anyone ever feel like they are NOT the most well-liked, NOT good at schmoozing, how did you get over this and still maintain your confidence to go on everyday?

2. Should I try harder to leave her alone to learn or deal with this by herself? (she's 26, gone straight from college/med school/residency without much "life" or work experience) OR try harder to help her?

3. Are there any guys out there who constantly feel the need to solve their significant other's problems, or VICE VERSA? How do I get over this and just be a good listener to keep on “validating” her feelings?

4. Am I crazy for being so happy and excited to be at the hospital even though i'm in the deepest student loan debt **** and still doing ok, and I have this urgent need to "make" my wife a happy intern like I am?

.

In reverse order

Yes you are crazy. Crazy is not always bad.

I hate it when others try to solve my problems - often when I complain or share a struggle that is all I am doing. I honestly know it is better for me to talk to strangers (online, at a bus stop, whatever) than with real people in my life - because real people try to solve my problems. I am not looking for that. I just want to vent - rant for a brief bit. Then when I feel better i go and take care of business myself. I NEVER discuss my problems with my family, because I am not looking for advice. I just want to blow off steam when I talk about problems. However this causes some problems with my wife - one of her two consistent complaints about me is that when I have problems I don't talk about them. But that is how I was brought up - my dad is old-school. My dad was straight (not metrosexual or homosexual ) , decorated war hero from WWII - they have made movies about stuff he did, where men open doors for women and pay the bill when you go out to eat. So when stress gets high I go to the gym, rant to a stranger whose opinion means nothing to me anyway - I am just blowing off steam. I honestly believe you cripple people by taking care of their problems for them.

My approach to people in my life : listen. After they are done I say something like "Mind if I offer some advice?". Everyone in my life acknowledges that one thing I am good at is listening without commenting - letting people talk without interrupting. Then I offer minimal instruction. I feel it is really important to look at people as though they are truly capable of handling their problems themselves. I think people tend to rise to the level we set the bar at for them. I remember when my oldest son was 4 or 5 and was rejected as a playmate by two older boys (7 or 8) who lived next door. My first tendency was to go talk to the mom and make them play, instead..... I got out some karate mats I used when I taught Karate classes. I set these mats up like an obstacle course in the front yard, instead of inside - and had my son go play on them. Soon the other boys came over and joined him in play - they came to him. I did nothing to interfere or help other than that. I set up a situatiion in which he could win - he had no feeling I helped him. Minimal help is best - especially if they do not get the feeling you are helping. Being helped leads to helplessness.

I know I am hated by many and loved by many. Not a lot of middle ground usually. I schmooze, but am never a chameleon or insincere. I am quick to give compliments, recognition and gifts. But never in a chameleon like manner. If I was liked by everyone I woud consider myself a failure because the ONLY way you can do that is by being a chameleon. I know who I am : I am straight, enjoy traditional gender roles, hard working, a team player (which also means I know there IS another team that I am NOT on and don't plan to be on), dislike lazy slobs, etc.I consider motherhood to be a very important job - and expect mothers to be at their posts on time EVERY DAY to do what they do - raise the kids. Its that important. I do think a dad can be a great mom. I have a tolerance for those different than me (especially in a professional environment) - but equally dislike expectations that I HAVE to do more than show tolerance. I maintain my confidence when others dislike me because I like who I am, and do not expect and do not want everyone to like me- again i would consider it a failure if everyone liked me....unless they truly agreed with my opinions. My confidence comes from knowing and liking who I am, not in others liking me.

Did I miss taking step one half (1/2)?

I am not sure you can really change someones self-esteem after age 5 or 6. I do think you can change self-confidence by setting up situations they can win at. Self confidence and self-esteem are different. one is confidence in abilities and the other is confidence in ones self worth. I hve considered my number one job as a dad to make sure their self-esteem and self-confidence is nourished.

 

[dragonfly99]

Pediatricians (some of them) can be pretty passive aggressive and clannish.

In my experience, some nurses (and even some physicians) do not respect female physicians and do not like taking direction from them (particularly if one is a "nice"/fairly soft spoken female). If one comes across as too aggressive, one may get written up or accused of being unfriendly, but if too nice, then things don't get done in a timely manner and the intern is blamed for that. As you can imagine, this can make being an intern more difficult (if you have to have extensive discussions/negotiations about a bunch of the orders you give, things just take longer).

While I somewhat agree about the possibility of dysthymia or depression, I think it is easy to "point the finger" at a distressed intern and assume she "did it to herself". However, in my experience being an intern was miserable much of the time. This probably will be better in a year or so, since she won't be everyone's b*tch any more. It might help her to focus less on being liked by everyone, and more on just trying to put on a brave/good front for the world and trying to be a little more outgoing - that's what people want from interns, IMHO.

FYI she probably doesn't want you to "fix" this. You're there for support and to be a good listener. You can't fix this. The reality is that she might not be able to either - interns have limited power and she doesn't have a whole lot of influence over her work environment. About the only thing she can control somewhat is how she deals with whatever comes her way.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Do you work in the same hospital? Did you go to medical school together? If so, it might be hard for her to see you so happy, well-adjusted and well-respected in the hospital whereas she feels like she does. Are you worried this is a strain on your marriage?

I think Doowai's advice about being a sounding board rather than Mr Fix-It is good, with one caveat: if it is the case that you're getting along well whereas she's struggling, she might well be wanting you to share "your secret." Tread lightly there though.

 

[Nebraska1]

I don't have any answers.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is having a hard time. And I want to say, thank you for being a supportive husband.

Good luck with everything.

My first thought to reading your reply is: wow, thank you for "listening." I feel so much better because you read everything I wrote, and replied with such compassion! I really appreciate it. You are going to make a very caring doctor!

Which reminded me how I need to be more like you. To be a better listener. But it's just so hard to NOT be Mr. Fixer! I've always been a goal driven person and if I see something that needs to be fixed/improved, I'd do everything I can to accomplish it! But I will try harder to listen more!

 

[Nebraska1]

I don't have any answers.

Its possible that your wife could be depressed or dysthymic, which is something I understand to be fairly common in medicine. If she feels down a lot, its quite possible that talking to someone (you, her PD, or a therapist, depending) could be very useful. From your post, I didn't get the sense that she was unhappy because of anyone in particular, or that her residency is particularly malignant. And it sounds like this has been going on for a while. If she's willing to try and make a change, it will probably involve talking to someone to identify the issues.

if your wife has been feeling like this since her 3rd yr of med school and she's now an intern, perhaps she's depressed? if you think she's suffering from an inferiority complex, that could be true as well. but seeing as how she's your wife, i think this is something you would have noticed ages ago. while med school and residency are hard, a 3 year funk is probably due to something outside the hospital.

Yes, I agree with both of you. She actually has amazing insight and knows that she is depressed/dysthymic. However, we're unsure about seeking professional help because we do not know how it will affect her future licensing/fellowship applications. She's afraid of being stigmatized as having a mental illness and whatever that might bring. We welcome any suggestions on how to approach this.

We have decided that her PD is definitely NOT a good resource. Her program is NOT at all malignant and most of her intern mates are very nice. I'm just constantly reminded of her 4th year elective rotations where she would cry because some gunner completely outshined her everyday, even though she is extremely hard working and probably has the same medical knowledge. She can't seem to get over the shady backstabbing games of medicine. How can I help her develope the thick skin that I think would help her. I really don't have an urgent need to "fix" this, but I think it would only help her in the long run.

 

[Nebraska1]

My approach to people in my life : listen. After they are done I say something like "Mind if I offer some advice?". Everyone in my life acknowledges that one thing I am good at is listening without commenting - letting people talk without interrupting. Then I offer minimal instruction. I feel it is really important to look at people as though they are truly capable of handling their problems themselves. I think people tend to rise to the level we set the bar at for them.

YES, I agree with you and will try to do more of this!

Pediatricians (some of them) can be pretty passive aggressive and clannish.

In my experience, some nurses (and even some physicians) do not respect female physicians and do not like taking direction from them (particularly if one is a "nice"/fairly soft spoken female). If one comes across as too aggressive, one may get written up or accused of being unfriendly, but if too nice, then things don't get done in a timely manner and the intern is blamed for that. As you can imagine, this can make being an intern more difficult (if you have to have extensive discussions/negotiations about a bunch of the orders you give, things just take longer).

This is exactly what's happpening with her. She tried different ways to accomodate her attendings and teammates, but then ends up feeling horrible at the end of everyday. She no longer is excited to go to work!

It might help her to focus less on being liked by everyone, and more on just trying to put on a brave/good front for the world and trying to be a little more outgoing - that's what people want from interns, IMHO.

I agree with you completely, but how does one actually operationalize this?

Do you work in the same hospital?

Yes

Did you go to medical school together?
NO, she went to a hot shot med school and I'm a Carib grad.

If so, it might be hard for her to see you so happy, well-adjusted and well-respected in the hospital whereas she feels like she does.
Are you worried this is a strain on your marriage?

I think Doowai's advice about being a sounding board rather than Mr Fix-It is good, with one caveat: if it is the case that you're getting along well whereas she's struggling, she might well be wanting you to share "your secret." Tread lightly there though.

I am really NOT that "wonderful." We share ideas/secrets all the time and she is NOT asking for my secrets, as I don't have any! I am just VERY concerned for her well-being and future life, as in, I don't want her to be miserable going to work for the rest of her life. And I am a very optimistic person but I am afraid that eventually, she will drain my optimism and I won't be her cheer leader anymore

 

[dragonfly99]

I think if she wants to seek professional help, then seek it away from the hospital. I would not consult the GME office or the PD, nor would I mention it to any work "friends". Yes, it is paranoid. But it is reality. If she does it this way then she never has to mention it on licensing applications, etc. It's not like she is suicidal and endangering patients, so IMHO it's none of the state medical board's business. She might have minimal time to address this as an intern.

As far as how to better schmooze and get along with people, you can read books that salesmen read. It sounds silly, but I've found it works a little bit. There's one called, "Talking the Winner's Way" that's kind of helpful. It won't make her not depressed, but it might help her get a little more influence over people.

 

[Southpaw]

1. Did anyone ever feel like they are NOT the most well-liked, NOT good at schmoozing, how did you get over this and still maintain your confidence to go on everyday?

Most people aren't good at schmoozing. She should find her confidence in providing good care to her patients, the feeling of being more comfortable with her knowledge base and skill set, and knowing with each day of residency that passes she's one day closer to it finishing.

2. Should I try harder to leave her alone to learn or deal with this by herself? (she's 26, gone straight from college/med school/residency without much "life" or work experience) OR try harder to help her?

You really just need to ask her how you can be there for her. Whether it's leaving her alone to handle it internally or just listening, over time she can best tell you how to be there.

3. Are there any guys out there who constantly feel the need to solve their significant other's problems, or VICE VERSA? How do I get over this and just be a good listener to keep on “validating” her feelings?

Most guys feel the way you do. You get over it with practice.

4. Am I crazy for being so happy and excited to be at the hospital even though i'm in the deepest student loan debt **** and still doing ok, and I have this urgent need to "make" my wife a happy intern like I am?

Neh, it's great you're happy. But you can't make her happy, you just have to be there to support her during this rough period.

5. Should she switch to another field?

She's a smart girl, let her decide her direction in her own time.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

As far as how to better schmooze and get along with people, you can read books that salesmen read. It sounds silly, but I've found it works a little bit. There's one called, "Talking the Winner's Way" that's kind of helpful. It won't make her not depressed, but it might help her get a little more influence over people.

How to Win Friends and Influence People. Seriously.

 

[error404]

As far as how to better schmooze and get along with people, you can read books that salesmen read. It sounds silly, but I've found it works a little bit. There's one called, "Talking the Winner's Way" that's kind of helpful. It won't make her not depressed, but it might help her get a little more influence over people.

Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people." A book that everyone's heard of, even if they don't know it...

While I sometimes am not fond of the 1930's writing style, the fact remains that this hugely influential book can totally change lives. I think it has something to offer to nearly everyone.

Of course, on a totally, completely unrelated note... after my husband read it, he changed the way he reacted to my problems. It changed our communication for the better.

 

[error404]

How to Win Friends and Influence People. Seriously.

Damn. That's what I get for posting before finishing the thread.

Touche. (Yes, I know I'm not using it right. It drives my husband crazy. And with your french background, I'm sure you can appreciate it too, BD.)

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Well, it would be right, if we were debating. As you doubtless know, the expression comes from dueling with epées (thin rapier-like swords)-- if your opponent was able to scratch you, you were "touché."

 

[Doowai]

Well, it would be right, if we were debating. As you doubtless know, the expression comes from dueling with epées (thin rapier-like swords)-- if your opponent was able to scratch you, you were "touché."

These terms are used because of lateral movement. The Spaniards dominated fencing (which was for real at one time) because of circular movement. The French fought in a linear back-and-forth manner. Spanish fought in a circular movements, simply stepping around the lunging French fencers. Once the French learned to use lateral movements to cut off their circular progress, the French began to dominated fencing duels. About this time fencing duels began to decline and the event became codified and sportsmanlike conduct was instituted.

As a result French terms are used in fencing (since they were recognized as having the superior fencing technique at the time the condification began) - for example the fencing ring, or play area is called a "piste". It is a thin narrow runway, allowing only linear back-and-forth motion. As a result circular and lateral fencing footwork has been essentially lost from sword fighting.

The Spanish also favored a heavier blade, and a more frontal position. The sideways position used in fencing led to more lethal blows, because a piercing attack will tend to puncture more organs - such as both lungs and the heart. Where as a frontal posture will more likely result in just one lung being pierced.

 

[error404]

Well, it would be right, if we were debating. As you doubtless know, the expression comes from dueling with epées (thin rapier-like swords)-- if your opponent was able to scratch you, you were "touché."

But... we weren't debating, so I used it wrongly. (Am aware of origins. I just enjoy the word, for some reason.)

Touché.

 

[error404]

Now that the fencing questions are all cleared up:

OP, how's it been going?

 

[Nebraska1]

Now that the fencing questions are all cleared up:

OP, how's it been going?

Thanks for checking up on me Error!

I am definitely ordering one of these books ASAP. Let's hope it'll be helpful.

Last night, she was very upset, and I was all ears. I listened and listened and tried my best NOT to solve her "problems"

She did tell me again how the attendings don't even look at her when they talk about her patients. She feels "invisible", the other intern and a nurse kept cutting her off while she was presenting to the attending on HER patients. She feels stupid. She's counting the days to get off this rotation!

I truly feel helpless

 

[dragonfly99]

This WILL get better when she is no longer an intern.
At this point I'm starting to wonder if she is training @the hospital where I did medical school (mean pediatricians...LOL!).
But seriously the attending not looking at you isn't that big of a deal...after all interns are not considered important. If he's yelling at her THAT is a problem.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Strong work, Nebraska. I know that's tough, to simply be a sounding board.

Your wife sounds like a genuinely nice, humble, sweet person. She sounds like she's respectful, lets other have their say, and is hesitant to interrupt or disagree with others/superiors too openly. Given that she chose pediatrics as a field, I would venture to guess she's also warm and nurturing.

Unfortunately, none of those things are seen as 'doctor-y' traits. It sounds like others are running roughshod over her because they interpret her reticence as a lack of knowledge/authority. If she's cute to boot that really compounds the problem.

How to Win Friends & Influence People would be more helpful for the person who has trouble getting along with others or rallying them to their cause. It sounds like your wife-- as distasteful as this would probably be with her-- needs a healthy dose of assertiveness training. She needs both her colleagues, her attendings and those to whom she is supposed to be giving orders to RESPECT her & her knowledge base. She needs to know that being interrupted is the norm, not the exception, and that she should interrupt right back to present her ideas more forcefully.

This is not a subtle profession and confidence is respected above almost everything else.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with blond doc
However, sometimes if women act too assertive they just get slapped down more...or written up. This kind of depends on the hospital and the attending and other colleagues, though. There was a person in my program who got sent away to get re-educated for supposedly being too mean to people...but really was just an east coast, assertive type of person. I think a male resident would have gotten away with the behavior, but the nurses and other hospital staff just weren't going to take it from a female.

However, I agree with interrupting back when someone tries to take over the conversation, particularly if the person is the same level as her (i.e. other intern) or a med student.

 

[Old_Mil]

I really need some guidance to help her build some confidence and be happy about going to work!

... need to help her feel better about herself at work.

-ANY advice, suggestion, humor would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

In general, I've learned (the hard way) that when a woman talks to you about her problems she's not looking for a solution. She's looking for an ear. If you listen to what she is saying, thats going to be more help than a 12 step plan to career happiness.

 

[Doowai]

In general, I've learned (the hard way) that when a woman talks to you about her problems she's not looking for a solution. She's looking for an ear. If you listen to what she is saying, thats going to be more help than a 12 step plan to career happiness.

WHat did Chris Rock say : "When a woman says "We need to talk", what she means is "Shut up and listen".

 

[jennyboo]

From what she's telling me, it sounds like she has a major inferiority complex. I know that it's winter time and she's over worked and we all have the intern blues

Sounds very typical and very normal to me. Women do not, by nature, feel confident at highly skilled work even when we are good at it. We often don't act confident even when we are reasonably confident we're doing a decent job. We question ourselves. When we're not sure, unlike men we don't pretend to have confidence. We often admit to weakness even when we're not weak. We believe our abilities to be less than they are.

I'd guess this probably describes 80% of female residents. Many of us don't feel confident. And when we get home we whine about it.

But.... most of the time, this doesn't need to be fixed and we are capable of plodding along and finishing residency anyway.

I need to help her feel better about herself at work.

I'm willing to put money on the fact that you probably don't. Just let her get it out of her system.