Therapist4Chnge

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To get this back on topic (although it might be interesting to start a thread on the whole male/minority admission issue - it would have to be someone braver than me though!):

I'll take that task.

I'd like to talk about this in more depth....maybe:

1. How the field has shifted dramatically in the past 20-25+ years.
2. The distribution of prominent faculty positions, and how that could stay the same/change.
3. Where you see the field going with the current (and next) generations of psychologists
4. Does affirmative action play or not play a role in this area
5. (Any additional topics of interest)
-t
 

irish80122

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This is a sticky topic...and it will be fun. Overall I don't like it honestly. I think it is important to have somewhat equal numbers because you need both male and female therapists. However, I have never been a fan of Affirmative Action or similar policies. It has just always struck me as unfair despite good intentions.

Please post what you think about it because I am working on a 15 page paper on the ethics of Affirmative Action and situations like this.
 
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amy203

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All of my interview's so far have been a sea of women (in black suits) with a couple of men sprinkled in. My last one had a grand total of 2 (and yes, I was competing against one of them for the same spot).

I think the issue here is not so much fairness, but diversity. Schools don't want to admit a class composed entirely of people from the East Coast or entirely of people under the age of 23. They also don't want to admit a class composed entirely of females.

I think people's backgrounds tend to have a strong impact on the way they practice psychology (it's one of the things I really love about it - it's not nearly as homogenized as law or medicine). Schools want to make sure that they are sending a diverse group of scientists/clinicians out into the world, because it leads to diversity both in research and in mental health options for future patients. I think it's easy to forget when you are a female stuck competing against a male, but this really isn't about us (the applicants). It's about what's best for the field of psychology.
 

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All of my interview's so far have been a sea of women (in black suits) with a couple of men sprinkled in. My last one had a grand total of 2 (and yes, I was competing against one of them for the same spot).

yeah, at my interview, my track had ALL females interviewees, with me being the only non-white.

I'm okay with AA, but i'm not okay with someone who claims it but doesn't have any intention of helping their culture or were ever disadvantaged because of their ethnicity. this is why i'm kinda in the pile where I think males shouldn't get an advantage because growing up, they weren't disadvantaged in any way that they would struggle to get to this same point as women.

same thing with rich black/latino kids. also especially irking to me are people who claim that 1/4+ connection to being native american, etc, so they can get an advantage even though they may not look it, ever associate with it, nor will help out that community in the future.
 

amy203

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yeah, at my interview, my track had ALL females interviewees, with me being the only non-white.

I'm okay with AA, but i'm not okay with someone who claims it but doesn't have any intention of helping their culture or were ever disadvantaged because of their ethnicity. this is why i'm kinda in the pile where I think males shouldn't get an advantage because growing up, they weren't disadvantaged in any way that they would struggle to get to this same point as women.

same thing with rich black/latino kids. also especially irking to me are people who claim that 1/4+ connection to being native american, etc, so they can get an advantage even though they may not look it, ever associate with it, nor will help out that community in the future.

Again, I don't think fairness is the issue here - psychology programs aren't trying to admit more males because men are at a disadvantage. They want to be sure to admit BOTH men and women because it leads to diversity in the field.
 

irish80122

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yeah, at my interview, my track had ALL females interviewees, with me being the only non-white.

I'm okay with AA, but i'm not okay with someone who claims it but doesn't have any intention of helping their culture or were ever disadvantaged because of their ethnicity. this is why i'm kinda in the pile where I think males shouldn't get an advantage because growing up, they weren't disadvantaged in any way that they would struggle to get to this same point as women.

same thing with rich black/latino kids. also especially irking to me are people who claim that 1/4+ connection to being native american, etc, so they can get an advantage even though they may not look it, ever associate with it, nor will help out that community in the future.

Here is where my politics are going to come in a bit...how can you tell if someone has been disadvantaged by their gender or race? You can make assumptions, but how can you truly know? I wish schools would look at people as a whole package (not just GRE scores or what not) on a case-by-case basis and give them an advantage if they are disadvantaged but not just because of their race or gender (and I am saying this as a male psych applicant). Anyone agree or am I off-base? I am a bit on the right on this so I will be curious to see if people agree or not.
 

Therapist4Chnge

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Here is where my politics are going to come in a bit...how can you tell if someone has been disadvantaged by their gender or race? You can make assumptions, but how can you truly know? I wish schools would look at people as a whole package (not just GRE scores or what not) on a case-by-case basis and give them an advantage if they are disadvantaged but not just because of their race or gender (and I am saying this as a male psych applicant). Anyone agree or am I off-base? I am a bit on the right on this so I will be curious to see if people agree or not.

I very much agree. I am not a fan of AA in today's current times, though I definitely understand the initial implementation.

-t
 

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I took a law class a few semesters ago and was surprised to find out that white women were the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action...which when you think about it, is quite obvious given the gender (not necessarily ethnic) switch in the psych field from majority white men to white women far outnumbering men in phd enrollment. Furthermore, ethnic minority psychologists comprise less than 6% of all psychologists. So I say to AA

While I'm sure in some respects white women have benefited from AA...have you considered the inequity in the number of women who are actually psychology professors? Out of the 7 schools I applied to only one of my POIs was a woman. I don't know the actual numbers but from my observations men far out weigh women in professorial positions in psych. Something seems off here.

Also I think that the under representation of minorities needs to be addressed before rather than after the fact. We need to improve education beginning at the elementary level and create programs to encourage minorities to pursue higher education at that juncture.
 

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I'm pasting my 2 replies from the other thread here....I don't feel like recomposing my thoughts...
--
I don't mind AA for minorities in psychology, because the number of minorities in the field is disgustingly low, and that's got to be a problem for the field, particularly as psychology is so intermeshed with cultural attitudes. I do mind AA for guys, a lot. Sure, guys are underrepresented in psychology graduate programs, but look at faculty rosters-- men are far from underrepresented there, at the top of the field! Men have implicit advantages in almost every career area-- it's just not fair to give them an advantage in one area that women have begun to dominate. Besides, I suspect that minorities don't pursue Ph.D.s in psychology as much because of systematic barriers (lower access to quality education, etc.), while men aren't going into psychology because they don't want to (probably because they're going into business or engineering or other money making areas).
--
What you generally see in female dominated fields is that the few men who go into them tend to get promoted faster and end up dominating the highest ranks. You see this in education (mostly women teachers, mostly male principals), librarians (mostly women, but library administrators are mostly men) and nursing (men tend to get promoted faster). Most of this information is coming from an Econ & Gender class I took in college about 6 years ago, so forgive me is this is out-of-date, but I can only assume that the trend has continued. Note that this takes place without the explicit advantage of AA for men. One hypothesized mechanism is that people are more likely to view men who enter male dominated fields as being more dedicated and more passionate because they are willing to enter the field despite the gendered stereotypes (e.g., a man who becomes a nurse despite the girlie stereotypes must be really dedicated, right?). I'm not sure if there's empirical support for that hypothesis (it'd be an interesting social psych question), but it makes intuitive sense. I don't think that there will be a severe dearth of men in psychology any time soon, and perhaps a better way to approach a potential one would be to look empirically at why men are choosing other fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zbombvt View Post
"Also, the belief that men are not going into psychology because they want to go into making money in other areas seems very closed minded to me. I've met many males over interviews/through work/etc. who are just as passionate about practicing psychology as the females I have met, all of whom are not driven by greed."
There is a reason why men aren't going into the field of clinical psychology, perhaps it is because they are going into psychiatry? I don't know the exact reasons, and I'd love to investigate why the numbers have dwindled so dramatically over the past thirty years.

my response
I didn't mean to imply that all men are greedy. Of course a lot of men are passionate about psychology (I know several)-- just apparently not as many as the number of women who are passionate about it. I don't think that anyone chooses the squalor of graduate school for 6 years if they're not passionate. I'm talking in aggregate here. There still persists a societal norm that men are the money-makers in the family. This gets socialized at a very early age (again, I'm talking theory here, not sure if empirically validated). It's not a greed thing, it's a simple life choice. I'm not criticizing. There may also be other reasons why men are choosing other fields--I think it's an interesting empirical question-- but the clear, indisputable fact is that they are.
--
Given women have so many implicit advantages in many careers, including academia (e.g., tenure evaluations occurring during childbearing years, etc.), the idea of giving affirmative action to men really irks me.
 

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lemme see if i understand correctly... if you are a "rich" latino male, and you dont look like a stereotypical hispanic, then AA shouldnt be applied to you? ..i was under the impression that AA was created bc minorities are underrespresented in certain workplaces, ect....so AA is ok for someone who looks hispanic and is at a disadvantage financially?...i am not saying i agree with AA, but, respectfully, your statements seem odd to me..you seem to be making generalizations about what people from certain cultures "should look like" and what their socioeconomic status "should" be


yeah, at my interview, my track had ALL females interviewees, with me being the only non-white.

I'm okay with AA, but i'm not okay with someone who claims it but doesn't have any intention of helping their culture or were ever disadvantaged because of their ethnicity. this is why i'm kinda in the pile where I think males shouldn't get an advantage because growing up, they weren't disadvantaged in any way that they would struggle to get to this same point as women.

same thing with rich black/latino kids. also especially irking to me are people who claim that 1/4+ connection to being native american, etc, so they can get an advantage even though they may not look it, ever associate with it, nor will help out that community in the future.
 

Quynh2007

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lemme see if i understand correctly... if you are a "rich" latino male, and you dont look like a stereotypical hispanic, then AA shouldnt be applied to you? ..i was under the impression that AA was created bc minorities are underrespresented in certain workplaces, ect....so AA is ok for someone who looks hispanic and is at a disadvantage financially?...i am not saying i agree with AA, but, respectfully, your statements seem odd to me..you seem to be making generalizations about what people from certain cultures "should look like" and what their socioeconomic status "should" be

no, I never said not looking like a stereotypical LATINO should automatically discredit you from getting AA (I know that latinos come in all shapes and sizes and skin tones, culture, etc). To me, AA is to make amends for past recriminations, to allow those who are affected get some advantage because their family was hurt by these recriminations in the past.

If a family is rich, that tends to mean that their family has succeeded in overcoming these past "wrong doing." So, to me, these kids should not continue to benefit from AA (diversity for the sake of diversity is a different topic, of which these kids could still be targeted for that)

Furthermore, there are other disadvantages than financially, like parents who don't understand the american culture (which leads to less communication between parent/teacher which leads to --usually--less benefits for the child like involvement in after school activities), different cultural norms (girls who were raised to believe that they should be in the family way instead of trying to pursue a career or told that smart girls weren't attractive, etc), and many other disadvantages than financially.

this could just be a differing of definitions that is causing us to not understand each other.

p.s. please don't twist my word of LATINO into hispanic. that, to me, is like calling me chinese even though I am Vietnamese.
 

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i think i understand your point more clearly now.
in regards to my using the terms hispanic and latino interchangeably: i know it may seem a little confusing considering not all hispanics come from latin america...i am cuban, and use the terms interchangeably to describe myself. thus, i dont think it is the same as calling someone chinese who is, in fact, vietnamese. hispanics and latinos all speak the same language and share SOME similar customs, unlike the chinese and vietnamese. i would assume the latter situation would cause a person to feel much more offended. Obviously i can’t speak for all Hispanics, but any others should feel free to chime in if they get a chance, maybe i am in the minority on that one. i think the only people who get a little irritated when they are called latino/hispanic are spaniards from spain. i hav some fam over there, and i think they prefer the term spaniard

not trying to argue with you AT ALL, just trying to clarify my thoughts on the subject :)



no, I never said not looking like a stereotypical LATINO should automatically discredit you from getting AA (I know that latinos come in all shapes and sizes and skin tones, culture, etc). To me, AA is to make amends for past recriminations, to allow those who are affected get some advantage because their family was hurt by these recriminations in the past.

If a family is rich, that tends to mean that their family has succeeded in overcoming these past "wrong doing." So, to me, these kids should not continue to benefit from AA (diversity for the sake of diversity is a different topic, of which these kids could still be targeted for that)

Furthermore, there are other disadvantages than financially, like parents who don't understand the american culture (which leads to less communication between parent/teacher which leads to --usually--less benefits for the child like involvement in after school activities), different cultural norms (girls who were raised to believe that they should be in the family way instead of trying to pursue a career or told that smart girls weren't attractive, etc), and many other disadvantages than financially.

this could just be a differing of definitions that is causing us to not understand each other.

p.s. please don't twist my word of LATINO into hispanic. that, to me, is like calling me chinese even though I am Vietnamese.
 
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Quynh2007

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just a point...the majority of vietnamese were chinese at one point in their family tree. many legends, food, and culture from vietnamese and chinese are similar, and if a french man didn't change our written language, it would still be characters like the chinese. (sorry this is a one of my favorite topics, hence my inclination to want to study cross-cultural issues in clinical psych)

but back on to the topic of this thread...should guys get extra consideration? I suppose if they are qualified, they should be accepted over a woman with the same qualification (boy, that was hard to write).
 

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......should guys get extra consideration? I suppose if they are qualified, they should be accepted over a woman with the same qualification (boy, that was hard to write).

When you are answering this.....remember, this is the same as swapping out guy for "(name a minority) man/woman". Also, it is one thing to want to allow for diversity, but does that mean taking the lesser candidate just to ensure diversity? (With the assumption additional consideration, pts, etc are given to the minority category).

-t
 

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wow interesting, i did not know that about the cultures being similar, ect. learn somethin new everyday hehe thank u:)


just a point...the majority of vietnamese were chinese at one point in their family tree. many legends, food, and culture from vietnamese and chinese are similar, and if a french man didn't change our written language, it would still be characters like the chinese. (sorry this is a one of my favorite topics, hence my inclination to want to study cross-cultural issues in clinical psych)

but back on to the topic of this thread...should guys get extra consideration? I suppose if they are qualified, they should be accepted over a woman with the same qualification (boy, that was hard to write).
 

Quynh2007

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if the lesser candidate is perceived to be able to successfully complete the program, then yes, they could be accepted over another more qualified person for the sake of diversity/AA, etc. it would be a waste of $ and resources if they accepted someone for diversity only to have them drop out. (and by lesser qualified, i mean quantifiably, since many things can't, but in terms of GPA, GRE, they have lower #s and/or really lacking in research experience).
 
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It's unfortunate that this thread went off topic so quickly. As a male deeply interested in psychology and keenly aware of the gender discrepancies within the field, I feel a discussion on experiences by both male *and* female members in psych programs would be of great use to all of us.
 

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i'm a 1st year doctoral student we have 11 people in our class, and i'm the only guy..i must admit it's a bit weird for me...in class my opinion becomes like the token male opinion, which i am a little uncomfortable with, but its interesting also...i honestly think i have learned much more than i thought i would about women bc of it
 

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I'm wondering how sexual orientation fits into this. Would you say that gay men are a minority in clinical psych?
 

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we have 11 people in our class, and i'm the only guy.

Been there, done that. It did give me an appreciation for what it'd be like to be the only ethnic minority in a class. Sometimes I felt like I had to speak for men.....but then I realized that although I think i'd be a great representative, I could only speak for me. ;)

-t
 

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Should men be treated as a minority in the application process? I would say no... and I am a manly man!

The dearth of men in clinical psych programs is representative of the applicant pool. Same thing when it comes to racial diversity. No need to make special exceptions and lower the quality of the incoming students. My guess is that the incoming groups of students from "minority" groups are equally represented vs. white females given the lower numbers that apply. Like I said, it's a guess but I have yet to see many men or racial minorities at my interviews.

It doesn't really bother me to be in the minority as long as it doesn't hurt my chances when applying. That would be a different story. I figure down the line it will open up more opportunities for me. I will "diversify" a universities psychology department at some point in my life. Yippee!
 

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What I wonder is if university's have some kind of quota for each division - like 'the sciences' as an overall group. So, if they want to achieve a certain number of female students in the Science dept. and very few females are getting PhD's in something like earth science, for example, the psych dept. is encouraged to accept female students to balance out the overall percentage?

This isn't based on anything factual, it's just my guess for why things have developed the way they have.
 

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I have a question for everyone, and you may not know the actual answer but your opinions would be appreciated.

We all know that men, African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino populations are considered minorities in the field of psychology, and because of this, may be given special consideration during interviews.

Do you think the same applies to other ethnicities that also aren't as represented in psychology: such as people from Asia (India, China, Japan, Vietnam etc)? And would these people be deemed as a "minority"
 

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I have to say that I do feel that men might need special consideration. Now, this may not be fair and I never used to have this opinion, but fairness to applicants should not be the main concern in my opinion. Originally I felt that all should be equal, but after working at VA hospital that has changed. Preserving diversity is important in the field of psychology. Despite having a great supervisor who does great work, I still feel that the male veterans I work with have more of a connection to me because I am male. Same goes more those with a similar ethnicity. This is about having providers out there that can meet the needs of the populace. While I might not specialize in helping males or my ethnicity, those who feel more comfortable with me because of this can seek me out and I will treat them. If the field became more heterogenous, how many clients might not show up for treatment? Mind you, this is how I feel over a select few jobs, in most cases I am equal opportunity.
 
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