Merit Scholarships and Residency Matches

[Pluto98]

Was perusing some threads regarding merit scholarships and it seems that people indicate that having one of these on your app confers a pretty big boost come match time. For example, if someone got a merit scholarship to a school like Uchicago or Northwestern, would that be a big boost equivalent to attending a "top 3"? How about attending a state school on a full ride?


How do merit scholarships factor into how people match?

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[deleted480308]

Was perusing some threads regarding merit scholarships and it seems that people indicate that having one of these on your app confers a pretty big boost come match time. For example, if someone got a merit scholarship to a school like Uchicago or Northwestern, would that be a big boost equivalent to attending a "top 3"? How about attending a state school on a full ride?


How do merit scholarships factor into how people match?

Not nearly as much as what step1 use to mean

 

[KnightDoc]

Was perusing some threads regarding merit scholarships and it seems that people indicate that having one of these on your app confers a pretty big boost come match time. For example, if someone got a merit scholarship to a school like Uchicago or Northwestern, would that be a big boost equivalent to attending a "top 3"? How about attending a state school on a full ride?


How do merit scholarships factor into how people match?

Where did you see that? I'm not in med school yet, but I'd be surprised if that were true. Merit scholarships are a reflection of how well a med student did PRIOR to med school. Why would residencies value that above what a student has done in med school?

Now, I'm sure it will turn out that lots of merit scholarship recipients excel in med school (isn't that the bet schools make when they award them?), but I would bet the correlation is between excellence in med school and great matches, not from receiving a scholarship 4 years prior! If this were not the case, wouldn't National Merit Scholars (or other competitive merit scholarship recipients) from high school have a huge advantage in med school admissions? To my knowledge, they don't! (And if they do, please tell me more!! ) Again, winning a competitive scholarship might be an indicator of future success, but the cause and effect does not stem from being able to say you won the scholarship, it comes from what you do after.

 

[Pluto98]

Where did you see that? I'm not in med school yet, but I'd be surprised if that were true. Merit scholarships are a reflection of how well a med student did PRIOR to med school. Why would residencies value that above what a student has done in med school?

Now, I'm sure it will turn out that lots of merit scholarship recipients excel in med school (isn't that the bet schools make when they award them?), but I would bet the correlation is between excellence in med school and great matches, not from receiving a scholarship 4 years prior! If this were not the case, wouldn't National Merit Scholars (or other competitive merit scholarship recipients) from high school have a huge advantage in med school admissions? To my knowledge, they don't! Again, winning a competitive scholarship might be an indicator of future success, but the cause and effect does not stem from being able to say you won the scholarship, it comes from what you do after.

Suppose you have a student from UCLA who won the Geffen Scholarship. A program director might very well think that person turned down HMS, Hopkins, UCSF... to go to UCLA on a full ride. For that person, is their prestige relative to a top 3 grad equivalent?

Also, you would be comparing National Merit Scholars to undergrad admissions not med school admissions. NMS though, is a national award and is not given by a "lower tier" HS to attract student who would have gone to more prestigious HS'

 

[deleted480308]

Suppose you have a student from UCLA who won the Geffen Scholarship. A program director might very well think that person turned down HMS, Hopkins, UCSF... to go to UCLA on a full ride. For that person, is their prestige relative to a top 3 grad equivalent?

Also, you would be comparing National Merit Scholars to undergrad admissions not med school admissions. NMS though, is a national award and is not given by a "lower tier" HS to attract student who would have gone to more prestigious HS'

The more you explain it the more I think the answer is no, and the more desperate it sounds

 

[Pluto98]

The more you explain it the more I think the answer is no, and the more desperate it sounds

I didnt get the Geffen Scholarship im just saying

 

[Engrailed]

Suppose you have a student from UCLA who won the Geffen Scholarship. A program director might very well think that person turned down HMS, Hopkins, UCSF... to go to UCLA on a full ride. For that person, is their prestige relative to a top 3 grad equivalent?

Also, you would be comparing National Merit Scholars to undergrad admissions not med school admissions. NMS though, is a national award and is not given by a "lower tier" HS to attract student who would have gone to more prestigious HS'

but how would residency directors possibly know what schools applicants were accepted to? The name of the school on your application is the one that you matriculate to.

not..
(“student at X school* footnote: BTW, please know that I turned down Y, Z etc before choosing my school”

 

[KnightDoc]

Suppose you have a student from UCLA who won the Geffen Scholarship. A program director might very well think that person turned down HMS, Hopkins, UCSF... to go to UCLA on a full ride. For that person, is their prestige relative to a top 3 grad equivalent?

Also, you would be comparing National Merit Scholars to undergrad admissions not med school admissions. NMS though, is a national award and is not given by a "lower tier" HS to attract student who would have gone to more prestigious HS'

You are correct, but, so what? Why would a PD value the potential UCLA saw in a candidate 4 years prior over what the candidate did in the intervening 4 years? The comparison to National Merit is valid -- why would a med school care about excellence in high school? They wouldn't! Same goes for PDs looking at what a candidate did before med school, which is what a med school scholarship would reflect. Of course, a lot of HS superstars go on to have spectacular college careers. On the other hand, many also flame out.

FYI -- my scholarship reference is to college scholarships awarded based on HS performance; not HS scholarships. Think about it -- do med schools care that you might have turned down Harvard UG for a merit-based full ride at a lower ranked school? Of course not -- they only care about what you do in UG and during gap years. Again, don't get too defensive, because I'm sure there is a correlation, but I'm pretty sure it's because merit scholarships are a decent predictor of potential to excel in med school, not because PDs drool over the scholarship itself, or start speculating about where else you might have gotten in.

 

[Pluto98]

but how would residency directors possibly know what schools applicants were accepted to? The name of the school on your application is the one that you matriculate to.

not..
(“student at X school* footnote: BTW, you should know, I turned down Y, Z etc”)

They wont know which ones you were accepted to. But tell me, if you saw someone with the Geffen scholarship, would you assume they probably turned down a higher ranked school to go there? I would. Of course what you do in med school matters most. But I would think being a "star recruit" at a lower ranked program is at least equivalent to bumping up which school you came from by a few notches. For example, I know several people from my undergrad (T10) who attended on a full ride. These people who went to med school definitely got into better places than the avg pre med I knew at my undergrad

 

[deleted480308]

They wont know which ones you were accepted to. But tell me, if you saw someone with the Geffen scholarship, would you assume they probably turned down a higher ranked school to go there? I would. Of course what you do in med school matters most. But I would think being a "star recruit" at a lower ranked program is at least equivalent to bumping up which school you came from by a few notches. For example, I know several people from my undergrad (T10) who attended on a full ride. These people who went to med school definitely got into better places than the avg pre med I knew at my undergrad

Don’t discuss it like this to anyone you are applying with, it sounds a little obnoxious

 

[Engrailed]

They wont know which ones you were accepted to. But tell me, if you saw someone with the Geffen scholarship, would you assume they probably turned down a higher ranked school to go there? I would. Of course what you do in med school matters most. But I would think being a "star recruit" at a lower ranked program is at least equivalent to bumping up which school you came from by a few notches. For example, I know several people from my undergrad (T10) who attended on a full ride. These people who went to med school definitely got into better places than the avg pre med I knew at my undergrad

ok can actual residency directors chime in lol

just like how someone being interviewed at a T10 shouldn’t assume they would get all T20 interview invites, I don’t think it’s reasonable to make correlations like, someone got accepted to Geffen/Full Ride X, so they MUST have swept schools ranked above and below.

 

[Saturday’s Child]

You are correct, but, so what? Why would a PD value the potential UCLA saw in a candidate 4 years prior over what the candidate did in the intervening 4 years? The comparison to National Merit is comparable -- why would a med school care about excellence in high school? They wouldn't! Same goes for PDs looking at what a candidate did before med school, which is what a med school scholarship would reflect.

The original question wasn’t whether a merit scholarship is worth more than accomplishments during medical school. Obviously it is not.

The question was essentially whether a merit scholarship at, say, a T-20, is viewed the same as just attending a T-5. At any med school, both merit scholarships and being admitted in general are reflections of what a student did prior to med school, so your argument that that’s irrelevant is false, assuming school prestige matters to any extent. Is a merit scholarship at a good program viewed the same as attending a great program on your own dime? I don’t know the answer to that, but that’s the question that was asked.

Regarding the OP’s question about a full ride at a state school, I don’t think that is even close to a proxy for attending Harvard and will not be viewed as such by residencies.

 

[Pluto98]

Don’t discuss it like this to anyone you are applying with, it sounds a little obnoxious

OK I wont. I will keep it anonymous in the deep web

 

[KnightDoc]

They wont know which ones you were accepted to. But tell me, if you saw someone with the Geffen scholarship, would you assume they probably turned down a higher ranked school to go there? I would. Of course what you do in med school matters most. But I would think being a "star recruit" at a lower ranked program is at least equivalent to bumping up which school you came from by a few notches. For example, I know several people from my undergrad (T10) who attended on a full ride. These people who went to med school definitely got into better places than the avg pre med I knew at my undergrad

No -- and again, where did you see this? Geffen scholarship is a very nice feather to put on an application, and I'm willing to bet most of the recipients (the top recruits at one of the top schools in the country) and going to do great things in med school and are going to have great residency opportunities.

But if one of them decides to take it easy at UCLA, I don't think being a Geffen recipient is going to get them squat in applying for residencies. The world is full of stories of people who go to Harvard UG and don't get into med school, and I know for a fact that there are people at every med school in the country, including every prestigious school you dream about, who don't get great matches. I'd bet a least a few of them (those who slacked off), were merit scholarship recipients.

 

[Pluto98]

The original question wasn’t whether a merit scholarship is worth more than accomplishments during medical school. Obviously it is not.

The question was essentially whether a merit scholarship at, say, a T-20, is viewed the same as just attending a T-5. At any med school, both merit scholarships and being admitted in general are reflections of what a student did prior to med school, so your argument that that’s irrelevant is false, assuming school prestige matters to any extent. Is a merit scholarship at a good program viewed the same as attending a great program on your own dime? I don’t know the answer to that, but that’s the question that was asked.

Regarding the OP’s question about a full ride at a state school, I don’t think that is even close to a proxy for attending Harvard and will not be viewed as such by residencies.

Exactly my question! Thank you for framing it!

 

[KnightDoc]

The original question wasn’t whether a merit scholarship is worth more than accomplishments during medical school. Obviously it is not.

The question was essentially whether a merit scholarship at, say, a T-20, is viewed the same as just attending a T-5. At any med school, both merit scholarships and being admitted in general are reflections of what a student did prior to med school, so your argument that that’s irrelevant is false, assuming school prestige matters to any extent. Is a merit scholarship at a good program viewed the same as attending a great program on your own dime? I don’t know the answer to that, but that’s the question that was asked.

Regarding the OP’s question about a full ride at a state school, I don’t think that is even close to a proxy for attending Harvard and will not be viewed as such by residencies.

I know -- and I said I'm pretty sure that the scholarship itself won't mean anything 4 years later. It's irrelevant in and of itself. To the extent it's a predictor of future success, it's the future success that's determinative, not the presence of the predictor from 4 years ago.

 

[KnightDoc]

The original question wasn’t whether a merit scholarship is worth more than accomplishments during medical school. Obviously it is not.

The question was essentially whether a merit scholarship at, say, a T-20, is viewed the same as just attending a T-5. At any med school, both merit scholarships and being admitted in general are reflections of what a student did prior to med school, so your argument that that’s irrelevant is false, assuming school prestige matters to any extent. Is a merit scholarship at a good program viewed the same as attending a great program on your own dime? I don’t know the answer to that, but that’s the question that was asked.

Regarding the OP’s question about a full ride at a state school, I don’t think that is even close to a proxy for attending Harvard and will not be viewed as such by residencies.

My understanding is that school prestige in and of itself doesn't matter -- what give the boost at the prestigious schools is the connections you make and the opportunities you have, not the mere fact that you attend. If this were not the case, wouldn't absolutely everyone at great schools get great matches?

 

[Pluto98]

My understanding is that school prestige in and of itself doesn't matter -- what give the boost at the prestigious schools is the connections you make and the opportunities you have, not the mere fact that you attend. If this were not the case, wouldn't absolutely everyone at great schools get great matches?

Look at the match lists. Everyone gets great matches. There is no way you can state prestige of a med school dosent matter and its all connections and what you do when your there. School name definitely matters.

 

[KnightDoc]

@walter_heisenberg -- while the debate has been stimulating, you still haven't provided a reference to the threads you were perusing. I'd like to see them (or is this it?? ).

 

[KnightDoc]

Look at the match lists. Everyone gets great matches. There is no way you can state prestige of a med school dosent matter and its all connections and what you do when your there. School name definitely matters.

What do you mean EVERYONE gets great matches? I think you mean HMS always has great matches, not that everyone at HMS has great matches, because the latter is objectively not true. You can Google it.

 

[Pluto98]

What do you mean EVERYONE gets great matches? I think you mean HMS always has great matches, not that everyone at HMS has great matches, because the latter is objectively not true.

See quote below from a previous thread (Harvard vs UCLA (Geffen Scholarship))
Theres more from other random threads I was looking at alluding to this scholarship being on your resume being a boost.

I’ve posted this in couple of other threads, and I don’t want to get too repetitive, but >200,000 in debt (not even including interest) is life-altering. Yes you will almost certainly be able to pay it back, but you’ll need to plan your entire life around it for 5-10 years, if not more. That debt will be on your mind when you have children, when you buy a house, when you start saving for retirement, etc. In my opinion, if it’s avoidable, it’s just not worth it. Furthermore, I can’t imagine that having the Geffen scholarship on your resume would limit your residency options in any way. UCLA has a national reputation and I’m confident with good board scores, you could go anywhere.

I have a good friend who went to school in SoCal and the atmosphere there is incredible- great weather, beautiful scenery, generally more laid back people. The only downside is the cost of living, but on the Geffen, that’s no concern for you! UCLA has pretty robust research offerings in the life sciences given that it’s an Amgen site, and those are only at institutions with strong research programs. I don’t think you could go wrong with UCLA. Congratulations!

But yes, EVERYONE or almost every single person at HMS has great matches. Look at stanfords match list for example. At least 95% have to be top 10 matches in each speciality.

Stanford Medicine

Anesthesiology (6)

• MGH
• MGH
• MGH
• Stanford
• Stanford
• UCLA

Child Neurology (1)

• Baylor

Dermatology (8)

• Cleveland Clinic
• Johns Hopkins
• MGH
• NYU
• Stanford
• Stanford
• UCLA
• UPMC

Emergency Medicine (3)

• NYU
• UCLA
• UCSF

Family Medicine (2)

• Institute for Family Health
• UCSF

General Surgery (7)

• Brigham and Womens
• Brigham and Womens
• Brigham and Womens
• Duke
• Stanford
• UCLA
• UCSF

Internal Medicine (14)

• Brigham and Womens
• Kaiser Permanente
• MGH
• NYP Columbia
• NYP Cornell
• Stanford
• Stanford
• Stanford
• Stanford
• Stanford (Internal Medicine/Anesthesiology)
• UCSF
• UCSF
• UCSF
• UCSF

Interventional Radiology (Integ) (2)

• Duke
• NYU

Neurological Surgery (4)

• Johns Hopkins
• MGH
• Stanford
• Yale

Neurology (1)

• UCSF

Obstetrics and Gynecology (7)

• Brigham and Womens
• Cedars-Sinai
• Icahn
• Kaiser Permanente
• Stanford
• U Colorado
• UCLA

Ophthalmology (1)

• U Iowa

Orthopedic Surgery (4)

• MGH
• NYU
• Penn
• Stanford

Otolaryngology (4)

• Johns Hopkins
• Stanford
• Stanford
• U Michigan

Pediatrics (3)

• CHOP
• CHOP
• Stanford

Plastic Surgery (Integ) (2)

• Mayo Clinic
• U Massachusetts

Psychiatry (6)

• Brigham and Womens
• Duke
• Stanford
• Stanford
• Stanford
• UCSF

Radiation Oncology (3)

• MGH
• MGH
• Stanford

Radiology - Diagnostic (2)

• Stanford
• UCLA

Urology (2)

• MGH
• Stanford

 

[Chromium Surfer]

I think I understand where OP is coming from. On some of the x vs y school threads where people get into HMS and geffen, people often say that getting the geffen is on par with graduating from HMS and that it follows you your whole life hence why geffen should be chosen. I’m also leaning toward the direction that what matters more than anything is how much you leverage your med school

@aProgDirector could you chime in?

 

[KnightDoc]

See quote below from a previous thread (Harvard vs UCLA (Geffen Scholarship))
Theres more from other random threads I was looking at alluding to this scholarship being on your resume being a boost.




But yes, EVERYONE or almost every single person at HMS has great matches. Look at stanfords match list for example. At least 95% have to be top 10 matches in each speciality.

That quote is absolutely true, and very different from the scholarship being a "big boost" in and of itself. Of course, going to a T10 is not going to limit opportunities, with or without a scholarship, and, of course, being awarded the scholarship is not going to hurt in any way. That's very different from the scholarship itself being a big boost!

As to great matches, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Are the matches due to the school, or due to the school attracting some of the very best in the country? If it's the school, why isn't the great match rate 100%? I didn't look at Stanford, but I looked at Harvard, and every year there are a few very non-spectacular matches, as well as a few who do things besides medicine. How can this be? They all went to HMS!!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

I think I understand where OP is coming from. On some of the x vs y school threads where people get into HMS and geffen, people often say that getting the geffen is on par with graduating from HMS and that it follows you your whole life hence why geffen should be chosen. I’m also leaning toward the direction that what matters more than anything is how much you leverage your med school

@aProgDirector could you chime in?

I 1,000% agree with you -- HMS is great because it attracts great students and has great opportunities. So does UCLA. It would be crazy to spend $250,000+ extra for whatever marginal boost you get from the HMS name.

I don't think it's the Geffen that follows you your whole life -- I think it's the level of achievement that allowed you to be awarded it that follows you, along with the benefit of a free education at a T10 med school. This seems like a tomato-tomahto argument insofar as you end up in the same place, whether it's because PDs are impressed with the scholarship itself (I really don't think so), or because the level of excellence that warrants the scholarship makes you impressive to PDs, assuming it continues in med school.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

This is purely speculative, but it seems like a lot of merit scholarships go out for traits that are not necessarily performance driven in a strict sense of scale.

IE, someone who clawed their way out of foster homes to then become a great med school candidate is undoubtably awe inspiring, and money would likely flow, but is that nsg program really going to look more fondly on a great story versus pure excellence in performance? Maybe? I have no idea, just adding thoughts to the conversation.

Counterpoint I suppose could be motivating story=merit scholarship, and motivating story=match preference. And scholarship is correlated with match points, but because of the underlying basis in both cases. I dunno. Interesting question.

 

[deleted972488]

At the very least a merit scholarship is an impressive line to have on a resume, which can only help. How much it helps is probably hard to determine and is likely candidate-specific.

I was a National Merit Scholar and didn't think it meant much, but when I was applying for grants I included it on my application. For grants, you can actually see what evaluators say about your application and about you as a candidate. That particular award did resonate with at least one evaluator, even though that achievement was a long time ago and presumably has little to do with my current abilities.

 

[KnightDoc]

At the very least a merit scholarship is an impressive line to have on a resume, which can only help. How much it helps is probably hard to determine and is likely candidate-specific.

I was a National Merit Scholar and didn't think it meant much, but when I was applying for grants I included it on my application. For grants, you can actually see what evaluators say about your application and about you as a candidate. That particular award did resonate with at least one evaluator, even though that achievement was a long time ago and presumably has little to do with my current abilities.

Wow!!! I am definitely surprised, but I wouldn't say it has little to do with your current abilities. Clearly you have a history of achievement and excellence, and that is why you do so well. That particular award was an early predictor of your continuing success, but I'm sure lots of people don't live up to their potential. Still, someone was impressed with it, and that is definitely unexpected and something I will keep in mind. Tidbits like this is why I love this place so much!! Thanks!!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Any named awards (scholarships or leadership awards) are noticed throughout the career unless you completely slacked off and nothing to show after the last award. Look at profiles of some of researchers or medical school scholarship winners and you see they list all their awards.

 

[Goro]

Was perusing some threads regarding merit scholarships and it seems that people indicate that having one of these on your app confers a pretty big boost come match time. For example, if someone got a merit scholarship to a school like Uchicago or Northwestern, would that be a big boost equivalent to attending a "top 3"? How about attending a state school on a full ride?


How do merit scholarships factor into how people match?

How about looking at the Program Director survey and seeing if this is something that PDs actually look for?????

 

[KnightDoc]

Any named awards (scholarships or leadership awards) are noticed throughout the career unless you completely slacked off and nothing to show after the last award. Look at profiles of some of researchers or medical school scholarship winners and you see they list all their awards.

Yes, of course, and @PapayaJambalaya proved me wrong by noting that a grant issuer took note of a National Merit Scholarship, so I'm convinced they do carry some weight. I still stand by my original response to OP, however, and that is that receiving a prestigious merit scholarship to med school will not provide a "big boost" to a residency application absent all the things that residency PDs look for in a successful applicant. You would not disagree with that, would you?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes, of course, and @PapayaJambalaya proved me wrong by noting that a grant issuer took note of a National Merit Scholarship, so I'm convinced they do carry some weight. I still stand by my original response to OP, however, and that is that receiving a prestigious merit scholarship to med school will not provide a "big boost" to a residency application absent all the things that residency PDs look for in a successful applicant. You would not disagree with that, would you?

How can I disagree with you? It won't be a big boost but more like icing on the cake. Basically tells me that they are consistent high achievers.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I cant believe you're discussing this.

I hardly even look at the Awards and Honors section. Many applicants decide to list all of the clerkships where they got "Honors" in this section. Drives me crazy.

I could care less what scholarship you got. I care about how you did in medical school.

n=1

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I cant believe you're discussing this.

I hardly even look at the Awards and Honors section. Many applicants decide to list all of the clerkships where they got "Honors" in this section. Drives me crazy.

I could care less what scholarship you got. I care about how you did in medical school.

n=1

How did you determine medical school performance with P/F grades and P/F Step 1?

 

[Goro]

How did you determine medical school performance with P/F grades and P/F Step 1?

Well, medical education doesn't end with Step 1.
PDs also use Step 2, MSTEs, letters of rec, see how people perform on audition rotations and look at class rank, when available. Ditto for AOA.

EDIT: I wrote this without seeing gonnif's post above.
DO students will also have COMLEX I scores, for whatever that's worth.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

See Program Directors Survey
While 94% of PD uses STEP 1 scores, there are over 20 other factors that 50% or more of PD use in evaluating applications from residency candidates for interview invite

I am aware of the PD survey. I am asking @aProgDirector for their n=1 criteria

 

[NotAProgDirector]

first of all, S1 isn't pass/fail yet. Even when it is, there will be S2. Then there are clerkship grades, class standing. LORs can be helpful but are often vague and everyone is "the best medical student I have ever worked with". Gold humanism counts for something.

 

[deleted1017848]

x

 

[getdown]

I've been involved in residency selection as a resident. The thing to keep in mind is that when you're applying to residency you're applying for a JOB. So, the factors that are important are no longer academic. By virtue of being offered an interview, your academic abilities are already considered. We would not offer interviews if we did not think you would be successful academically or meet our step score cutoffs. Hence, the chance of matching into your top choice will be based on these simple questions:

1. Do I want to work with this resident or have this resident as a colleague?
2. Is this person teachable and will listen to feedback or do they think they already know everything?
3. Will this person pull their weight and not shirk off their responsibilities?

So you can see that what we care about isn't your academic pedigree but of you being a functioning and reliable team member. Unfortunately, this is something we see more and more of an issue for new residents as they've never held a job in their lives and approach residency like medical school.

 

[deleted1017848]

x

 

[KnightDoc]

I think perhaps this explains post interview invite matching but I think it doesn’t explain why certain institutions seem to have a lot of inbreeding or why match lists vary so much across the spectrum. I think those qualities that you mentioned must exist in people regardless of their institution so there is some element of other stuff (pedigree, who you know, etc) that must matter after even the interview stage to explain match list trends. Would you have any thoughts or opinions on this?

I think you hit the nail on the head with your chicken or egg comment. Outstanding people tend to do outstanding things. Getting into HMS is outstanding. Getting into UCLA is outstanding. Getting a Geffen is outstanding. Do these people score outstanding residencies because they are receiving a particular honor, or are they getting the residencies for the same reason they are receiving the honor?

Based on the feedback we have received here, I'm voting for the latter, but, at the end of the day, does it really matter? Objectively speaking, recipients of Geffen Scholarships are statistically highly likely to do well in life, whether or not the receipt of the Geffen itself is the cause, or whether it's because of everything else.

 

[getdown]

I think perhaps this explains post interview invite matching but I think it doesn’t explain why certain institutions seem to have a lot of inbreeding or why match lists vary so much across the spectrum. I think those qualities that you mentioned must exist in people regardless of their institution so there is some element of other stuff (pedigree, who you know, etc) that must matter after even the interview stage to explain match list trends. Would you have any thoughts or opinions on this?

There's a lot of nuances and factors to residency matching from both the institution side and candidate side. My original post was to answer what we as the institution value in evaluating candidates we interview. There's a lot to say about the match game in how to get interviews, who is really offered interviews, regional bias, etc. It really isn't just one factor.

With regards to the bolded comment above, the answer is not so clear cut because, like I said, you have to factor in the candidates needs as well as the institutions needs (goals). Let me start by saying that the institutions goals basically boils down to filling all their available spots with good candidates. The students' goals are more variable: location, family, prestige, institutional training, etc. so it's hard to really pinpoint one specific thing that drives most people to rank certain programs above others.

The reason certain places have inbreeding is because programs tend to take students from schools they've had good experiences with. If they've consistently gotten good residents every year from a certain school then they know the quality of that particular school and more inclined to rank candidates from those schools higher. Same with the inbreeding. PDs and residents in the selection committee will more often take people they know they'll gel with and know they can work together well with. A student from the home institution will have a bigger advantage by virtue of their rotations and more in-person time. Would you take someone you've worked with and know performs well or some other person that looks good on paper?

Another is regional bias. Programs have limited interview spots and they need to maximize those spots in order to fill their resident slots. This is why programs from the midwest will not send interviews to applicants from the east or west coast if they see that student has lived there all their lives. It's more likely that that student will choose to stay in their region due to XYZ (usually family) factors. Hence you see these people from some Top10 school not getting invites from the midwest/southern schools despite their high scores and pubs, etc. This is also much more of an issue is smaller residency programs (i.e surgical subs, derm, etc) where each class size is usually under 5 per year. You also see this in a lot of the state school match lists. Most of their people stay in the region. It's not that they're incapable of matching to "elite" programs but they find staying closer to family much more important than the prestige. Another reason why simply looking at match lists in isolation without asking each candidate why they chose that particular school is kind of dumb.

There's a lot more to say but this is already getting long as it is

 

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I see a factor listed is “lack of gaps in medical education” does that mean taking a 5th research year is a disadvantage?

It all comes down to context and reason. The intention behind that question is to identify people who took gaps due to academic reasons. People who struggled academically and had to take time off to get their stuff together. Or people who got caught cheating, placed on probation and came back the following year. Ultimately, if the gap is for research or you're pursuing a combined degree than it's not that big a deal.

 

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[Pepe18]

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It would seem pointless to me too but it comes up in the help me choose x/y/z threads every year! That’s why it’s something I will never understand!

The reason that it keeps getting brought up is because they've lost sight of the forest because of the trees. They're so bogged down on specific details they're trying to use to make their decision they lose sight of what's truly valuable to them. You will find this problem when deciding to rank residencies as well and I know that this was something I found myself doing. Comparing each residency's perks vs salary etc and it was driving me crazy. Ultimately, I had to step back and really identify what it was I truly valued or was looking for in a program. Don't sweat the small stuff and I answered this one simple question. What is it that will make me happy? That's really it. What makes someone happy, however, varies so it could be prestige, it could be location, it could be XYZ. But the thing to remember is that if you choose a place because you're happy you will be able to perform better regardless of where you go instead of because of a dumb perk that you'll soon grow tired off in a few months. Again, just my 2 cents on life choices.