Military OMFS...ask a cheif resident

[TeleportMassive]

SDN,

I figure it’s time to give back to the forum after it has helped me so much throughout the years between applying to dental school and preparing me for residency.

A little background...I am currently a cheif resident at the largest military OS residency in the country. Have had a great run so far, experience In our profession’s full scope is unmatched. As touched on by other posts, the military is unique in that it allows residents to practice without monetary constraints. For this reason, in my opinion we have one of the strongest facial cosmetics and orthognathic programs in the country. Doing about 3 major cosmetic procedures a week in addition to standard scope stuff.

Anyways I wanted to open this thread for anyone who has questions about military Oral Surgery programs to post. Whether that is what a typical day consists of, questions about applications, possibly setting up externships, etc...I would be happy to answer any questions.

Hope I can help a future OMFS hopeful like I was be successful down the road.

.....BTW I still bump EDM in the OR everyday

-TeleportMassive

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[axiumgod]

This is awesome, thanks in advance for doing this. A few questions that came to mind— Are externships at your program hands on at all, or is it solely observing? I talked to an Army OMFS who said his trauma experience was pretty light, what has your experience been like so far? And is there anything you wish you would’ve known either while applying or before starting residency?

 

[D1Bound]

What branch of service are you? I understand if you don't want to say it's a small world. I'm interested in Army OMS

 

[UNCafDDS]

Thanks for starting this topic @TeleportMassive . I am a 4-yr USAF HPSP recipient.

How are externships arranged in the military - is there an application procedure, or do we reach out to a particular contact at a base?

What CBSE score is considered competitive for an Air Force OMFS residency program?

What is the possibility that the military (esp. Air Force) will permit a new graduate to do apply for/attend a civilian deferment (for a 6-yr OMFS residency)?

Thank you again for your time

 

[pookatooth]

What's a typical week like? Split between clinic and OR? Do you have dedicated academic days? What do you think your first year out of residency will look like?

 

[Recip]

What's a typical week like? Split between clinic and OR? Do you have dedicated academic days? What do you think your first year out of residency will look like?

Depends where you go... and what PGY level you are. As an intern I did not go to the OR except to bring something in like casts or a photo. As a Chief I was in the 2-3 days a week. As a third year 2 days a week. As a second year, pretty much wasn't in the OR outside of rotations, GS, trauma, NSGY, ENT. I probably trained at the same program as the person who started the thread.

One dedicated academic day generally.

First year out depends where you go. I was slamming orthognathic cases, in the OR a day a week sometimes more with trauma. You could just go to some place with no support and a tiny hospital or no hospital and take out teeth. Never know.

 

[Recip]

This is awesome, thanks in advance for doing this. A few questions that came to mind— Are externships at your program hands on at all, or is it solely observing? I talked to an Army OMFS who said his trauma experience was pretty light, what has your experience been like so far? And is there anything you wish you would’ve known either while applying or before starting residency?

Cant really do any hands on during externship. Credentialing issue... Trauma will be light unless you train at the only level 1 trauma center in the DOD. Maybe that's why the person who started this hasn't replied... There you will come out a boss. Just like civ programs are different, same with military.

 

[ClandestineDime]

Cant really do any hands on during externship. Credentialing issue... Trauma will be light unless you train at the only level 1 trauma center in the DOD. Maybe that's why the person who started this hasn't replied... There you will come out a boss. Just like civ programs are different, same with military.

You are talking about the program in San Antonio, right? As the only level 1 trauma unit.

 

[Recip]

You are talking about the program in San Antonio, right? As the only level 1 trauma unit.

SA is the only level one trauma center.

 

[TeleportMassive]

Thanks for the responses. To address a few of the questions put out....

1. My CBSE score was a 70. I think 70 and above you will be competitive (scores have risen recently). Honestly that is probably the most important part of the application. Unless it interests you, research plays a minimal role in our residency. Remember that you are apply against a smaller and in many ways probably less competitive pool than civ OMFS programs. I also think an equally important aspect of your application is your attitude and interpersonal skills shown through the externships and interview. Remember that the attendings and residents have to live with you for the next 4 years and this is a huge factor.

2. A typical day varies depending on what year you are. As a chief, I typically arrive at 6 and leave by 5-6 (non-Trauma week). Operate 2-3 days a week. Intern year I lived at the hospital for weeks at a time without going home. It was pretty brutal. Average over the years is probably 80h/ week. 100+ intern year, more like 60 now.

3. I would reach out to the program director regarding externships (contact info is online). Try to come on a Trauma week if possible. Come ready to learn, have a good attitude, be first to show up and last to leave.

4. Following residency life will be back to pretty much 40h/week. Considering doing a cosmetics fellowship so that would change that. But talking to some of the guys who recently graduated life after residency (especially moonlighting$$$) is pretty sweet.

Any other questions let me know,

TM

 

[CarcinomaInSitu]

Thanks for the responses. To address a few of the questions put out....

1. My CBSE score was a 70. I think 70 and above you will be competitive (scores have risen recently). Honestly that is probably the most important part of the application. Unless it interests you, research plays a minimal role in our residency. Remember that you are apply against a smaller and in many ways probably less competitive pool than civ OMFS programs. I also think an equally important aspect of your application is your attitude and interpersonal skills shown through the externships and interview. Remember that the attendings and residents have to live with you for the next 4 years and this is a huge factor.

2. A typical day varies depending on what year you are. As a chief, I typically arrive at 6 and leave by 5-6 (non-Trauma week). Operate 2-3 days a week. Intern year I lived at the hospital for weeks at a time without going home. It was pretty brutal. Average over the years is probably 80h/ week. 100+ intern year, more like 60 now.

3. I would reach out to the program director regarding externships (contact info is online). Try to come on a Trauma week if possible. Come ready to learn, have a good attitude, be first to show up and last to leave.

4. Following residency life will be back to pretty much 40h/week. Considering doing a cosmetics fellowship so that would change that. But talking to some of the guys who recently graduated life after residency (especially moonlighting$$$) is pretty sweet.

Any other questions let me know,

TM

Hey TM, thanks for the responses as they're super helpful. Do you think you're going to pursue cosmetics following payback or immediately following residency? Also do you know how the interview process will work this cycle since many of us had our in-service externships cancelled due to COVID? Thanks in advance.

 

[D1Bound]

Thanks for the responses. To address a few of the questions put out....

1. My CBSE score was a 70. I think 70 and above you will be competitive (scores have risen recently). Honestly that is probably the most important part of the application. Unless it interests you, research plays a minimal role in our residency. Remember that you are apply against a smaller and in many ways probably less competitive pool than civ OMFS programs. I also think an equally important aspect of your application is your attitude and interpersonal skills shown through the externships and interview. Remember that the attendings and residents have to live with you for the next 4 years and this is a huge factor.

2. A typical day varies depending on what year you are. As a chief, I typically arrive at 6 and leave by 5-6 (non-Trauma week). Operate 2-3 days a week. Intern year I lived at the hospital for weeks at a time without going home. It was pretty brutal. Average over the years is probably 80h/ week. 100+ intern year, more like 60 now.

3. I would reach out to the program director regarding externships (contact info is online). Try to come on a Trauma week if possible. Come ready to learn, have a good attitude, be first to show up and last to leave.

4. Following residency life will be back to pretty much 40h/week. Considering doing a cosmetics fellowship so that would change that. But talking to some of the guys who recently graduated life after residency (especially moonlighting$$$) is pretty sweet.

Any other questions let me know,

TM

70 CBSE? Geez that's getting high

 

[Badgers2]

Could you touch on what the application/interview process is like?

 

[TeleportMassive]

Currently externships are in person and interviews are back on. I would highly recommend coming for an in person interview vs online. We have had externs for the last several months. Again, personality really matters for acceptance and it’s hard to convey that on a computer screen...contact the PDs to set this up.

As for the 70 comment....agreed it is high, worked for a solid 2-3 months to get that score (UWorld, First Aid, Pathoma is all I used). But compared to the amount of time in residency I’ve put in, or not getting in for a year, it’s worth it. Those scores matter so much more than class rank or gpa, since it’s actually applicable to our field. I’d spend your time focusing on that if you are serious vs spending hours waxing up a junk denture.

As for the fellowship, would like to do it before so I could continue to valiantly protect all service members from the threats of brow ptosis and jowling by doing facelifts/brow/bleph/rhinos...but it’s an extra two years of service..still weighing it out

 

[TeleportMassive]

Interview process is simple. Extern, put
on a suit (or blues), and sit down with some staff to talk about why you would be a good fit for their program. Some key tips:

1. Portray how you are a team player, and understand what you are getting into (through multiple previous externships, your personal support structure, general maturity)

2. Be able to identify what drew you to OMFS and why.

3. Don’t be a robot...have some humor when appropriate, don’t awkwardly sit in the corner on your phone when you extern.

4. Demonstrate that you can be a good intern. Show up before the actual intern you are with, offer to grab people coffee/lunch, constantly offer to help the people you are with, research the procedures you are observing beforehand.

 

[D1Bound]

Interview process is simple. Extern, put
on a suit (or blues), and sit down with some staff to talk about why you would be a good fit for their program. Some key tips:

1. Portray how you are a team player, and understand what you are getting into (through multiple previous externships, your personal support structure, general maturity)

2. Be able to identify what drew you to OMFS and why.

3. Don’t be a robot...have some humor when appropriate, don’t awkwardly sit in the corner on your phone when you extern.

4. Demonstrate that you can be a good intern. Show up before the actual intern you are with, offer to grab people coffee/lunch, constantly offer to help the people you are with, research the procedures you are observing beforehand.

I’ve gotten 5 different opinions on the requirements for Army. Some say CBSE first and foremost. Some say absolutely be top 10 in your class. Some say get above a 55 CBSE and several good impressions at externships and you’re golden.

 

[Recip]

I am not on the selection board and that info is not released so that's a tough question. There is a minimum CBSE score to be considered. That does not mean if you apply they won't interview you... You will still be interviewed, just not considered. I have heard the same number though, as a minimum. If you don't have the best class rank/GPA and you blow the CBSE out of the water you will have a good chance. Externships can go a long way. There are plenty of people who can do well on a test, but have no clue what they are getting themselves into.

I was not in the top 10 of my class. I was 17 or 18. I did well on the CBSE considering I was in the first class to take it. I don't know what the average of that test is anymore. When I took it it was 53-54. Like any test, people learn how to take it and do better as time goes on.

 

[Racquetball3r]

I’ve gotten 5 different opinions on the requirements for Army. Some say CBSE first and foremost. Some say absolutely be top 10 in your class. Some say get above a 55 CBSE and several good impressions at externships and you’re golden.

I personally know multiple individuals who got into what’s considered the best Army OMFS program with CBSE in the low 50s, and their class ranks were mediocre too. I think people like to make it sound far more competitive than it is.

 

[caffeine jitters]

regarding these externships, being the last to leave seems a little silly, no? after a certain point, the residents are only writing their notes... does sticking around to awkwardly watch them type actually mean anything?

 

[CarcinomaInSitu]

regarding these externships, being the last to leave seems a little silly, no? after a certain point, the residents are only writing their notes... does sticking around to awkwardly watch them type actually mean anything?

go back to bed bro

 

[Tooth Ferry]

regarding these externships, being the last to leave seems a little silly, no? after a certain point, the residents are only writing their notes... does sticking around to awkwardly watch them type actually mean anything?

Depending on which program you go to and the call schedule, you may not be leaving at all. I didn't leave the hospital for a few days except to pick up food. If there's no point of you sticking around, the interns will probably let you know.

 

[ClandestineDime]

I am going to apply out of dental school and will likely only apply to in-service programs. Are applicants looked at differently if only applying to in-service programs instead both in and out of service spots?

 

[8th]

I am going to apply out of dental school and will likely only apply to in-service programs. Are applicants looked at differently if only applying to in-service programs instead both in and out of service spots?

My knowledge on the acceptance process is pretty limited, but I'll try to give more insight. When you apply, you can opt to apply FTIS (Full time in service) Only, FTOS (Full time out service) only, considered equally for FTIS and FTOS, Primarily FTIS but will accept FTOS.

Pretty much the reason you choose this, is that the Navy has limited spots for FTIS and FTOS. If you select FTIS only, you will be competing for 1 of 6 spots. If you choose equally you would be competing for 1 of about 11 spots (6FTIS and 4-6FTOS). This last cycle was different in that there was 7 accepted for FTIS, but I do not know if that will be the norm. I do not believe you will be particularly discriminated against, you would just be limiting your chances of getting an okay from the navy to attend OMFS residency.

 

[Rongeur_dat]

Hi I am curious to what military OMFS is like after residency.

- Are you able to do large OR cases if not stationed at one of the residencies? If not, is it mainly dentoalveolar?
- Is there any advantage of FTIS grads being placed in better spots over FTOS grads? FTOS dual degree over FTIS placement?
- How many moonlighting hours and how much $ do new grads typically moonlight per month?

I appreciate your insight. Thanks!

 

[Tooth Ferry]

Hi I am curious to what military OMFS is like after residency.

- Are you able to do large OR cases if not stationed at one of the residencies? If not, is it mainly dentoalveolar?
- Is there any advantage of FTIS grads being placed in better spots over FTOS grads? FTOS dual degree over FTIS placement?
- How many moonlighting hours and how much $ do new grads typically moonlight per month?

I appreciate your insight. Thanks!

At my large base that does not have an OMS residency, they do mostly dentoalveolar with a few orthognathics/month. There's occasional maxillofacial trauma, maybe 1 a month or so. They get every other Friday off and can moonlight at least twice a month, more if they take off 2 Fridays a month.

 

[ClandestineDime]

Does anyone know if they ever allow FTOS or NADDS to do 6 year programs?

 

[D1Bound]

Does anyone know if they ever allow FTOS or NADDS to do 6 year programs?

The Navy does. It is very very rare for someone in the Army to get to do that. I don't know about AF

 

[Lankers]

Is there a list of bases an Oral Surgeon could be stationed? Or are OS stationed at all the bases that general dentists are stationed?

 

[Recip]

Is there a list of bases an Oral Surgeon could be stationed? Or are OS stationed at all the bases that general dentists are stationed?

For what service? Army, Navy or AF

 

[Lankers]

For what service? Army, Navy or AF

Army

 

[Lankers]

Also, is it possible to do OMS right out of dental school? Or do you have to pay back your four years first? I think the consensus from what I have heard is you need to do one year out of dental school...

 

[D1Bound]

Also, is it possible to do OMS right out of dental school? Or do you have to pay back your four years first? I think the consensus from what I have heard is you need to do one year out of dental school...

Yep everything I've seen you must do 1 year at a base and then begin specialty. It's because you don't have enough time to complete BOLC and the other leadership class before you finish dental school. I'm interested to know though if this could be done after residency instead.

 

[SirBrotherJam]

Does anyone know if they ever allow FTOS or NADDS to do 6 year programs?

They do, but don't consider this option unless you want to say in for basically a career. You won't be able to pay back your HPSP with your FTOS residency concurrently like FTIS. Plus it will only be after you pay your commitment back that you will qualify for a retention bonus. Basically that's 41K (6K board cert pay + 35K more IP than genden) more than your average dental officer, rank base varying as well with time. Not worth it if you ask me for what you go through in residency. Just do FTIS pay back your time and leave to make $$ as you so rightly earned.

Also, is it possible to do OMS right out of dental school? Or do you have to pay back your four years first? I think the consensus from what I have heard is you need to do one year out of dental school...

Yes. The Navy selected 6/12 from dental school out of a total 24 applicants. They may say you have to do a PGY-1 but I have also seen a direct transition.

 

[ClandestineDime]

Also, is it possible to do OMS right out of dental school? Or do you have to pay back your four years first? I think the consensus from what I have heard is you need to do one year out of dental school...

The Navy allows you to start OMFS residency right out of dental school.

 

[caffeine jitters]

is there a way to vie for a spot at a particular military program if you're selected? how would this work? would you contact your detailer, the program director, or both?

 

[D1Bound]

is there a way to vie for a spot at a particular military program if you're selected? how would this work? would you contact your detailer, the program director, or both?

I was told externing at one particular program more and getting a letter of Rec from the specific program director is the biggest way to indicate preference. I'd like to know more about this too though

 

[liquidblue123]

Hi all, I’m on the navy HPSP co 2023, I was planning on externing over summer break 2021. Is this too early as I’ll be barely finishing up second year. I figured since applications are due spring 2022, I should start soon.

 

[Tooth Ferry]

Hi all, I’m on the navy HPSP co 2023, I was planning on externing over summer break 2021. Is this too early as I’ll be barely finishing up second year. I figured since applications are due spring 2022, I should start soon.

Not too early, if only to help you make sure that you want to put yourself through residency; can't hurt to know what you're potentially signing up for.

 

[merg97]

Hi all, I’m on the navy HPSP co 2023, I was planning on externing over summer break 2021. Is this too early as I’ll be barely finishing up second year. I figured since applications are due spring 2022, I should start soon.

How are you externing? All 3 OS residency sites are unavailable for ADTs

 

[iwannabdentist123]

SDN,

I figure it’s time to give back to the forum after it has helped me so much throughout the years between applying to dental school and preparing me for residency.

A little background...I am currently a cheif resident at the largest military OS residency in the country. Have had a great run so far, experience In our profession’s full scope is unmatched. As touched on by other posts, the military is unique in that it allows residents to practice without monetary constraints. For this reason, in my opinion we have one of the strongest facial cosmetics and orthognathic programs in the country. Doing about 3 major cosmetic procedures a week in addition to standard scope stuff.

Anyways I wanted to open this thread for anyone who has questions about military Oral Surgery programs to post. Whether that is what a typical day consists of, questions about applications, possibly setting up externships, etc...I would be happy to answer any questions.

Hope I can help a future OMFS hopeful like I was be successful down the road.

.....BTW I still bump EDM in the OR everyday

-TeleportMassive

Hello!
Thank you for giving back to the community!
Could I ask about ways to prepare for oral surgery residency during the Snowbird year? (For example what materials to read and study)
Also, does the CBSE score matter when applying for a fellowship after residency?

 

[Recip]

Hello!
Thank you for giving back to the community!
Could I ask about ways to prepare for oral surgery residency during the Snowbird year? (For example what materials to read and study)
Also, does the CBSE score matter when applying for a fellowship after residency?

If your clinic allows and OMS is willing, go spend time at the hospital. Try reading some Petersons OMS and approaches to facial skeleton, or just relax and enjoy your time prior to starting. CBSE is part of the application for fellowship.

 

[Spiderman97]

If your clinic allows and OMS is willing, go spend time at the hospital. Try reading some Petersons OMS and approaches to facial skeleton, or just relax and enjoy your time prior to starting. CBSE is part of the application for fellowship.

What would you guess would be a competitive GPA to get into Navy OMFS right out of dental school? I am a D2 and I currently have 3.37 and will have 3.51 if I do well this semester. Provided a CBSE of 70 or so. I feel like the underdog and I didn't know what I wanted to do D1 year so my grades suffered a little. Thanks in advance for your response.

 

[CarcinomaInSitu]

What would you guess would be a competitive GPA to get into Navy OMFS right out of dental school? I am a D2 and I currently have 3.37 and will have 3.51 if I do well this semester. Provided a CBSE of 70 or so. I feel like the underdog and I didn't know what I wanted to do D1 year so my grades suffered a little. Thanks in advance for your response.

GPA is relative, class rank is more important. Aim for top 1/3 or higher with a high CBSE, one higher will compensate for a slightly lower other. 70 will make you competitive for FTIS and FTOS but FTIS is getting pretty competitive, CBSE is going up all over the place.

 

[OCheeselover]

Do you need to be enlisted in the military to apply for military OMFS. If not, can someone PM a recruiter info please?

 

[CarcinomaInSitu]

Do you need to be enlisted in the military to apply for military OMFS. If not, can someone PM a recruiter info please?

military dentist or HPSP, can't apply as a civillian

 

[SavageDent]

Just to confirm, if you get into a Navy OMFS program then your time in residency counts towards your payback and then you give the time of the residency back as an oral surgeon? So for me I am attending UOP, so if I did the OMFS Navy residency then my commitment would be paid back during the OMFS training and then I would owe 4 years as an oral surgeon to the Navy. Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[SirBrotherJam]

Just to confirm, if you get into a Navy OMFS program then your time in residency counts towards your payback and then you give the time of the residency back as an oral surgeon? So for me I am attending UOP, so if I did the OMFS Navy residency then my commitment would be paid back during the OMFS training and then I would owe 4 years as an oral surgeon to the Navy. Am I understanding that correctly?

You pay the time back concurrently AFTER residency. This is assuming you go straight into OMFS though.

 

[SavageDent]

You pay the time back concurrently AFTER residency. This is assuming you go straight into OMFS though.

So if I went into OMFS right out I’d school which I know is hard then I would owe 4 years as an oral surgeon becasue the first 3 years would count towards both my dental school time back and residency time back, and the last year would fulfill the 4th year of residency pay back?

 

[chlrbwls]

Assuming you are in UOP

Dental school year 1 2 3
Paid off by residency 1 2 3 (given that its ftis) program

then Chief year doesnt count anything for payback

Oral surgeon 1 2 3 4
counts as payback for residency 1 2 3 4

 

[SavageDent]

How important are externships in being considered for an oral surgery program in the military?