military pay vs. civilian pay (HPSP scholarship)

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millepora

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I finally got a recruitment officer that was helpful in my "number" questions. I figured I would share the info, in case anyone else was interested.

I asked about two fields, and how much they pay in the military after you start serving your HPSP.

Emergency Medicine-
Military- during your repayment years 90-100k, depending on location.
After your years have been served they give a multi-year bonus of 35k/yr if you want to continue serving.
Normal physicians that I have shadowed, said they were getting paid in the range of 230-300k a year.

Cardio-thoracic Surgery-
Military- 100-115k depending location
After you serve your years, they give you a multi-year bonus of 50k a year.
Normal physicians I have shadowed, said working at the hospital they make 350k-450k a year.
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Thanks! Very interesting. I haven't seen those figures for the armed services until now ;)
 
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I guess the way they do it is they pay you a regular officer salary, then give you food and housing allowance, and a couple other small bonuses, and they give you an extra 25-40k depending on what specialty you are in.

But all of those numbers equal out to the ones I quoted.
 
I hear serving as a doctor in the military is horrendous (always understaffed, horrible organization, etc.).
 
millepora said:
Emergency Medicine-
Military- during your repayment years 90-100k, depending on location.
After your years have been served they give a multi-year bonus of 35k/yr if you want to continue serving.
Normal physicians that I have shadowed, said they were getting paid in the range of 230-300k a year.




Cardio-thoracic Surgery-
Military- 100-115k depending location
After you serve your years, they give you a multi-year bonus of 50k a year.
Normal physicians I have shadowed, said working at the hospital they make 350k-450k a year.
Click to expand...

Too low:

EM: After 3 years of residency you'll make:

CPT (O3+3 yrs) base pay 2010: 53,748
VSP: 5,000
ASP:15,000
ISP: 26,000

Total: 99,748

BAH (2009 Housing allowance with dependants San Antonio TX, not taxed): 16,236
BAS (2009) Subsistance allowance, not taxed): 2,796

Grand Total: 118,780, but the 19K for BAH and BAS is not taxed, if you assume a 40% marginal tax rate, the total is more like 130,000.

After 3 years of service as an attending, you'd make MAJ (O-4) which would increase annual income to 12,384 while VSP increases by 7,000. That brings the new total to about 150,000.

WHEN (not if) you deploy, you'll make substantially more.

CT surgery bonus is only 10K per year more than EM.

By the way, don't do it for the money, better yet, don't do it at all. You'll thank me in 10 years.

Ed
 
I hope this attachment worked.

Ok, I see the difference, it is the ASP and VSP. Those amounts are still added during your years in which are repaying your HPSP debt?
 

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Last edited:
I am planning to take HPSP and my plan is to do Anesthesiology. I looked on the military chart as well and I have added all the different payments, average BAH, specialty bonus, extension bonus, and base pay for different ranks at different years of service. Still, the total is way below $200K. May be this pay is not bad for primary care specialties, but for those who are in high paid specialties like Ortho, Rad, Anesth, it is way below the average in the civilian sector unless there is another payments that are not listed on the chart. If my calculation is correct, is there any other reason that people in these specialties staying after completing their service contract? Off course every one working in the military is not only for the money, but I just want to know if there is another reason.

Thanks
 
I haven't seen those figures for the armed services until now
7l.jpg
 
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FlowRate said:
Mind expounding?


I am interested in the whole signing-bonus-after-med-school thing... $300k signing bonus, work for 4 years in the military, get out. Seems like a decent option for any of the lower-half of specialties by pay.
Click to expand...

$300k signing bonus? Not happening... Don't sign a thing until you see that in writing. The average signing bonus is 20k
 
mur said:
I am planning to take HPSP and my plan is to do Anesthesiology. I looked on the military chart as well and I have added all the different payments, average BAH, specialty bonus, extension bonus, and base pay for different ranks at different years of service. Still, the total is way below $200K. May be this pay is not bad for primary care specialties, but for those who are in high paid specialties like Ortho, Rad, Anesth, it is way below the average in the civilian sector unless there is another payments that are not listed on the chart. If my calculation is correct, is there any other reason that people in these specialties staying after completing their service contract? Off course every one working in the military is not only for the money, but I just want to know if there is another reason.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I plan on staying because after residency I would only have 4-5 years left til I could collect military retirement. Most are halfway there so they stay.
 
mur said:
I am planning to take HPSP and my plan is to do Anesthesiology. I looked on the military chart as well and I have added all the different payments, average BAH, specialty bonus, extension bonus, and base pay for different ranks at different years of service. Still, the total is way below $200K. May be this pay is not bad for primary care specialties, but for those who are in high paid specialties like Ortho, Rad, Anesth, it is way below the average in the civilian sector unless there is another payments that are not listed on the chart. If my calculation is correct, is there any other reason that people in these specialties staying after completing their service contract? Off course every one working in the military is not only for the money, but I just want to know if there is another reason.

Thanks
Click to expand...

You might be better off looking around the military medicine forum. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=72
 
BLACKMD said:
$300k signing bonus? Not happening... Don't sign a thing until you see that in writing. The average signing bonus is 20k
Click to expand...

He might be talking about a civilian attending moving into the military and not a student getting the HPSP scholarship. I could be wrong, but I think the sign on bonuses for the former are pretty high (maybe not 300k, but 6 figures).
 
millepora said:
I finally got a recruitment officer that was helpful in my "number" questions. I figured I would share the info, in case anyone else was interested.

I asked about two fields, and how much they pay in the military after you start serving your HPSP.

Emergency Medicine-
Military- during your repayment years 90-100k, depending on location.
After your years have been served they give a multi-year bonus of 35k/yr if you want to continue serving.
Normal physicians that I have shadowed, said they were getting paid in the range of 230-300k a year.

Cardio-thoracic Surgery-
Military- 100-115k depending location
After you serve your years, they give you a multi-year bonus of 50k a year.
Normal physicians I have shadowed, said working at the hospital they make 350k-450k a year.
Click to expand...

that sounds awfully high for emergency medicine. what kind of hospital is this?
 
millepora said:
I finally got a recruitment officer that was helpful in my "number" questions. I figured I would share the info, in case anyone else was interested.

I asked about two fields, and how much they pay in the military after you start serving your HPSP.

Emergency Medicine-
Military- during your repayment years 90-100k, depending on location.
After your years have been served they give a multi-year bonus of 35k/yr if you want to continue serving.
Normal physicians that I have shadowed, said they were getting paid in the range of 230-300k a year.

Cardio-thoracic Surgery-
Military- 100-115k depending location
After you serve your years, they give you a multi-year bonus of 50k a year.
Normal physicians I have shadowed, said working at the hospital they make 350k-450k a year.
Click to expand...

Is the military pay tax free?

(Answer may or may not depend on whether or not you are on active duty.)
 
aspiring20 said:
that sounds awfully high for emergency medicine. what kind of hospital is this?
Click to expand...

What? No it's not. I talked to an FM resident who moonlighted in the ER and made $150/hour. Assuming 12 hour shifts x 12-16 shifts a month (average, from what I've read), that's $260-345k/year. Matches up with what I've read in salary reports for EM physicians. Work in higher-paying groups in underserved areas, and, from what I've heard, you can approach $300-400/hour.
 
Gauss44 said:
Is the military pay tax free?

(Answer may or may not depend on whether or not you are on active duty.)
Click to expand...

It's tax free when you are deployed :D . They still deduct social security and medicare when you are deployed, but no federal income tax.

BAH (housing allowance) and BAS ($200-$400 a month for food, etc.) are tax free at all times. I'm not sure about the doctor's bonuses, but my guess is they are taxable.
 
circulus vitios said:
What? No it's not. I talked to an FM resident who moonlighted in the ER and made $150/hour. Assuming 12 hour shifts x 12-16 shifts a month (average, from what I've read), that's $260-345k/year. Matches up with what I've read in salary reports for EM physicians. Work in higher-paying groups in underserved areas, and, from what I've heard, you can approach $300-400/hour.
Click to expand...

wow...

but isn't EM one of the "less-competitive" specialties? also, can a DO have a realistic chance of landing an EM residency spot?
 
Anyone talking about 'crap pay' is in medicine for the wrong reason. Its about helping and serving...not making 300k+ a year.
 
csx said:
Anyone talking about 'crap pay' is in medicine for the wrong reason. Its about helping and serving...not making 300k+ a year.
Click to expand...

The adults are talking. Go play with legos or whatever.

aspiring20 said:
I am asking a straight up series of questions.

1) Is EM one of the "less competitive" specialties

2) Can a DO graduate have a good chance of matching into an EM residency
Click to expand...

From what I've read, it's mildly competitive. There are elite EM programs, but I believe EM is about as competitive as anesthesiology in terms of board scores and whatever else they look for.
 
aspiring20 said:
I am asking a straight up series of questions.

1) Is EM one of the "less competitive" specialties

2) Can a DO graduate have a good chance of matching into an EM residency
Click to expand...

1. From what I hear, it's definitely on the upswing in terms of competition. It's seems to be a "hot" specialty at the moment. People are realizing that EM has a lot of things going for it, or has less bad things, depending on how you look at it.

2. No idea, but I'd imagine it is getting more difficult.
 
csx said:
Anyone talking about 'crap pay' is in medicine for the wrong reason. Its about helping and serving...not making 300k+ a year.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
Average compensation for a emergency physician was $280k according to the 2010 MGMA survey. Not bad especially considering you can make that clocking less than 40 hrs/week.
 
circulus vitios said:
What? No it's not. I talked to an FM resident who moonlighted in the ER and made $150/hour. Assuming 12 hour shifts x 12-16 shifts a month (average, from what I've read), that's $260-345k/year. Matches up with what I've read in salary reports for EM physicians. Work in higher-paying groups in underserved areas, and, from what I've heard, you can approach $300-400/hour.
Click to expand...

You can approach $250, maybe get around $300 per hour, but it is basically unheard of to pull down $400 an hour, anywhere, for any ED shift. Regardless, pull down $200 an hour (a more realistic number), work 10-12 12's in a month, and life ain't too bad at all. 16 12's in a month, and you will start to consider killing yourself or someone else. Don't look at EM money and think you'll be cranking out 20 12's a month and pay off your loans in a year. Towards the dark side (and burn out) that path leads.
 
mur said:
I am planning to take HPSP and my plan is to do Anesthesiology. I looked on the military chart as well and I have added all the different payments, average BAH, specialty bonus, extension bonus, and base pay for different ranks at different years of service. Still, the total is way below $200K. May be this pay is not bad for primary care specialties, but for those who are in high paid specialties like Ortho, Rad, Anesth, it is way below the average in the civilian sector unless there is another payments that are not listed on the chart. If my calculation is correct, is there any other reason that people in these specialties staying after completing their service contract? Off course every one working in the military is not only for the money, but I just want to know if there is another reason.

Thanks
Click to expand...

There are three big financial incentives in addition to the pay:

1) Student loans: Ok, this is obvious, but I'm not sure the scale of it is. A frugal student at my private school would graduate with 300K in loans at the end of medical school. That will balloon to 400+K by the end of residency on IBR, and then you're paying something like 50K of after tax income just to stick to a 10 year payment plan.

2) College tuition: Its a smaller bonus, but significant. When you join you get the GI bill, which as you've finished a terminal degree isn't worth much unless you want to go back for an MPH. However at 10 years you can transfer the bill to a dependent. 1 full college tuition (including living expenses) in the bank.

3) Retirement: This is the big one. In the military after 20 years of service you can retire and get a pension based on your base pay for the rest of your life, in addition to free personal health insurance with a cheap buy in for your entire family. The value of the retirement goes up with each additional year of service after 20, and maxes out after 30 years. Someone did the math for me once, the value of the pension after 20 yeas is equivalent to having over a million dollars in a retirement account, and after 30 its worth a couple of million. Keep in mind residency counts towards that 20 years (if you do residency on active duty), so really you're only talking about 16 years on real active duty, and even less if you do a fellowship.

For obvious reasons most people get out after hitting one of the big financial milestones: end of initial commitment, after the college tuition gets transferred, 20 year retirement, or 30 year retirement.

Not saying that there aren't excellent reasons to leave early, or not to join in the first place. browse the military medicine forum for more information before signing anything so you make the most informed decision possible.
 
Last edited:
bradycardia said:
I know EM physicians from several groups that have an income range of 200k-450k in the Southwest.
Click to expand...

That range is big unless the 200k ones are working less hours an average... I wouldn't like to be the one making 200k when my other colleagues are laughing all the way to the bank... That 400k is high for EM anyway.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
You can approach $250, maybe get around $300 per hour, but it is basically unheard of to pull down $400 an hour, anywhere, for any ED shift. Regardless, pull down $200 an hour (a more realistic number), work 10-12 12's in a month, and life ain't too bad at all. 16 12's in a month, and you will start to consider killing yourself or someone else. Don't look at EM money and think you'll be cranking out 20 12's a month and pay off your loans in a year. Towards the dark side (and burn out) that path leads.
Click to expand...

$200/hr is a lot of money anyway... If you work an average 3-12 hrs/wk, that is like making 375k/yr... By the way, Is EM a primary care specialty?
 
Pons Asinorum said:
You can approach $250, maybe get around $300 per hour, but it is basically unheard of to pull down $400 an hour, anywhere, for any ED shift. Regardless, pull down $200 an hour (a more realistic number), work 10-12 12's in a month, and life ain't too bad at all. 16 12's in a month, and you will start to consider killing yourself or someone else. Don't look at EM money and think you'll be cranking out 20 12's a month and pay off your loans in a year. Towards the dark side (and burn out) that path leads.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. I think this crowd underestimates the difficulty of these ER shifts. I've done 4 months of this schedule and, although 3-12s is technically <40hrs/wk, it can feel like 100. It's mentally and emotionally exhausting. The next day, all you want to do is sleep. That said, there are definitely people that love it and wouldn't do anything else.
 
circulus vitios said:
The adults are talking. Go play with legos or whatever.



From what I've read, it's mildly competitive. There are elite EM programs, but I believe EM is about as competitive as anesthesiology in terms of board scores and whatever else they look for.
Click to expand...

Right. Anesthesia and EM are on par with Internal Medicine in terms of competitiveness (i.e. not very). You can find this information in the "charting outcomes of the match report." WashU SOM's residency information website also has information about it.
 
aspiring20 said:
wow...

but isn't EM one of the "less-competitive" specialties? also, can a DO have a realistic chance of landing an EM residency spot?
Click to expand...

EM is getting quite competitive. There are many DO EM residencies, and the specialty tends to be very DO friendly. Income ranges from under 200k to 400k+, but many of the highest paying jobs pay that high because they're awful. Whoever mentioned 12 hr x 16 shifts/month: that's a lot of hours in the ED. A lot of new EM grads I know took contracts for 1600ish hours/year.
 
thesauce said:
Right. Anesthesia and EM are on par with Internal Medicine in terms of competitiveness (i.e. not very). You can find this information in the "charting outcomes of the match report." WashU SOM's residency information website also has information about it.
Click to expand...

is this sarcasm? isnt anesthesiology one of the MOST COMPETITIVE residencies? it is part of ROAD.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
EM is getting quite competitive. There are many DO EM residencies, and the specialty tends to be very DO friendly. Income ranges from under 200k to 400k+, but many of the highest paying jobs pay that high because they're awful. Whoever mentioned 12 hr x 16 shifts/month: that's a lot of hours in the ED. A lot of new EM grads I know took contracts for 1600ish hours/year.
Click to expand...

No it isn't. Its competitiveness has been essentially stable for the past 4 years:
http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/EmergencyMedicine.aspx

Where do these statements keep coming from? I heard someone say the same thing about Anesthesia the other day - saying that you couldn't match with a 230 when literally >99% with that score match.
 
thesauce said:
No it isn't. Its competitiveness has been essentially stable for the past 4 years:
http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/EmergencyMedicine.aspx

Where do these statements keep coming from? I heard someone say the same thing about Anesthesia the other day - saying that you couldn't match with a 230 when literally >99% with that score match.
Click to expand...

Misinformation I guess

I also was under the impression that Anasth was one of the most competitive specialties.
 
thesauce said:
Circulus: how do you erase your posts like that?
Click to expand...

Click the "edit" button, which is next to the "quote" button. Then click "delete." I can't remember if you have to be a paid donor to delete your posts. I believe you can still edit your posts within a certain timespan with just a free membership.
 
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