Military Scholarship!!

[MaverickMD]

This message is for those who are already in internship/residency/GMO years of the HPSP scholarship program. (specifically those in Navy). Thanks!

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I guess the biggest question I have is: are you guys happy? Secondly, are your peers who also did the Navy HPSP happy/regretful/mixed bag? I've heard some people say "Doing this program was the biggest mistake of my life." Others, "If you do HPSP, stay away from the Navy. Go with AF!" Comments like these make me hesitant.

I am currently interested in pediatrics, perhaps emergency medicine...maybe even radiology... who knows, I am only MSI. Though from what I gather, the HPSP only makes sense if one were to do it as a primary care residency. If one were to do a specialty, it will add on a significant amount of GMO time and thus make it illogical. For me, I would like to serve the equivalent amount of time equal to my scholarship (3 yrs). What is your take on this?

I am also concerned about specialty choice and residency location. Do you pick 3 specialties and the military chooses one (or none of the three) depending on their needs? How much say do you really have on this? Also for place of residency...

I would like to go to the Naval Center in San Diego. Is this competitive? How are the facilities? I've heard due to the budget cutbacks, military hospitals are suffering, thus are training subpar physicians. On top of that, there is a large exodus of military docs who DO NOT stay on after their commitment. There must be something wrong with the system, otherwise they won't leave. Do you agree?

Lastly, the biggest complaint people seem to have is about the GMO tour (less so in the other services). Is it true that after 1 yr of internship, the Navy assigns you to a GMO tour lasting from 1-4 years. And if this is true, my recruiter told me that it only counts for half(?) the time toward repayment. But she also said that I have the power to defer it. Is this true? What are the obligations/caveats? If I get a 2 yr GMO tour after my 1st yr of residency, that means I have to do more 2 yrs of residency after I return, and then another 2 yrs of GMO to fulfill repayment. What this means is I do 1 extra year (at the least) of service for the Navy for free. In my mind, this discontinuity is horrible. Is this right?

-Mav

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[edmadison]

Your recruiter is wrong about the obligation. I have explained this several times, but I think everyone deserves a response because this is such a monumentous decision. First, your post indicates that you may not quite understand what a GMO is. It is a general medical officer -- a MD with only one year of internship that acts as a primary care physician. This is a bad thing. In internship, you generally deal with inpatients. Thus, you are in over your head. Of course, the military holds you to the standard of care of a board certified pediatrician, internist and gynocologist.

Here goes the payback explination:

Everything is easier to think about if you realize that there are two obligations that you may incur. The first is a scholarship obligation. For every year you are in the scholarship program, you must pay back a year as an active duty, not as a resident, physician. Thus, if you do a two year scholarship, you owe two years after residency. You also may incur a training obligation. For each year of residency that you do in the military, or funded by the military, you must pay back one year. This obligation starts with PGY-2. Thus, your internship neither pays nor incurs obligation. Accordingly, a five year ENT residency (internship plus four years) incurs a four year training obligation. The important point is that both obligation can be served at the same time. Examples help the most:

Take me for example. I'm doing a three year scholarship and want to do ortho which is a four year post internship program. Let's say that I match in the military and go straight from internship to residency. At the end of residency, I still have my scholarship obligation of three years plus another obligation for residency training of four years. Serving them both at the same time, at the end of four years, I have fulfilled my obligation.

Example two. Assume I have a three year scholarship and want to do pediatrics (internship + 2 years). After my internship, I am "selected" to do a GMO tour for two years. Off I go. At the end of that two years, I have paid two of my three year scholarship debt. I then go to a military residency for two years and incur another two years obligation. Thus, I have to pay four years total active duty. If I were permitted to go straight through, I would only have had to pay back three years.

The reason that GMO screws you is because of these two obligations. In essance, you end up having to give the military extra time for nothing. The only way you come out ok is if you have a long scholarship obligation and a short residency obligation (preventative medicine - 2 years total?). This is why the Navy program is worse, because they still force many to do GMO tours. The Army and AF generally do not. There is another choice, however. You can pay back your scholarship obligation all as a GMO and then bid the military a fond farewell. Then you go out and find a PGY-2 position, which is difficult in non-transitional specialties, or re do internship.

Any Questions?

Ed

 

[bafanculo]

What will a military doctor make during his residency...and during the first four years after residency , assuming he or she is paying back a four year scholarship.
What are the salaries for various medical specialities?

 

[MaverickMD]

Thanks EdMadison. Your explanation is crystal clear.

Some additional points:

When you say the Navy "selects" you to do a GMO tour, I assume that is non-voluntary and you can't get out of it after you are selected. Do you have any statistics as to how many HPSP scholars get GMO tours after 1 yr internship?

Also I heard that GMO tours can last up to 3 yrs (shore duty). In that case, then you really get screwed, right?

-Mav

 

[BenHoganFan]

Here is a link to the bonuses in the various specialties in the US Navy.

http://www.persnet.navy.mil/pers441...002_Medical_Officer_Special_Pay_Plan_v1_7.gif

Resident salary will depend on the number of years in service in your current rank. As an intern you can figure your base pay at 0-3 less than 2 years, plus basic allowance for subsistence based on rank and whether you support family members (ie dependents), plus $100 Variable special pay.

Attending salary will consist of the above (exception is your base pay based on rank and years in service) plus Specialty Pay, board certification pay, higher variable special pay (based on number of years in service, peaks at 6 to 8 years for $1k/month), and Cost of living allowance (higher for areas such as DC or San Diego).

You are definitely not hurting with the pay and allowances plus you have accrued very little debt in the process.

When you deploy to the Middle East, the portion of your pay that you earn while there is exempt from taxes. You also get$100 family separation pay.


I don't recommend talking to recruiters. You're recruiter will be long gone (ie out of the navy/military) before you realize what happened to you. You should definitely talk to people already in the program.

 

[edmadison]

Originally posted by MaverickMD
Thanks EdMadison. Your explanation is crystal clear.

Some additional points:

When you say the Navy "selects" you to do a GMO tour, I assume that is non-voluntary and you can't get out of it after you are selected. Do you have any statistics as to how many HPSP scholars get GMO tours after 1 yr internship?

Also I heard that GMO tours can last up to 3 yrs (shore duty). In that case, then you really get screwed, right?

-Mav

Yah you get really screwed. This is the major reason I didn't even consider the Navy's program. I have a strong family tradition in the Navy, too. The other reason I chose Army is that they have many more residency options. As for getting actual statistics on GMO tours -- good luck finding it. If you sign up for navy asume you will do GMO. I'm sure the Navy doesn't want you to know that. BTW, the reason the Army and Air Force have virtually elimintated their GMO programs is because Congress ordered them to do it. The Navy ignored this. Silly me, I thought the military had to follow their orders!

One other thing from your other thread -- ask the recruiter to give you a copy of the contract. Tell them that it is a deal breaker. If they won't do it, WALK. I had no problem getting a copy of the contract from the army.

Ed

 

[renaldon212]

I am a third year med student considering a two year navy scholarship. My obligation will be two years after navy internship or three years after civilian internship. My plan is to complete a navy internship, do my gmo tour for two years, and apply for civilian residency. How easy is this transition? Do civilian residency programs accept applicants who have completed internship elsewere, ie the military?

 

[shikantaza]

i was wondering if anyone knows what penalty you incur if you opt of the military program after they pay for your schooling?... i have a brother that is finishing med school this year through the navy and got totally screwed with the obligation (at least based on the information that he'd been given from them previously), and he's so frustrated that he wants out... does anyone know if this is possible, and if so, if you have to pay back more than they give... edmadison maybe?... any help would be greatly, greatly appreciated

 

[raspberry swirl]

i applied for the hpsp through the army but ended up turning it down. originally when i was talking to my recruiter, i was told that should i ever want out, all i had to do was pay all of it back-- all of it, including tuition, stipend, and any school related expenses, i.e. books which the military paid for, but nothing extra or more than what they had given me. but my recruiter could have been lying, since he failed to be clear about more than a few things.

 

[Caffeinated]

You cannot "opt out" of the scholarship. If, for some reason, the military discharges you and they feel that you were dishonest in your application (e.g., concealed a pre-existing physical condition) then you might be required to pay back all expenses (tuition, fees, supplies). However, there is no "back door clause" through which you can quietly sneak out because you aren't having fun. Life will be a lot smoother and easier if you quietly fulfill your obligation and then separate from the service rather than try to fight it. Because you cannot voluntarily back out on your service obligation, an HPSP scholarship is a huge decision (as edmadison already indicated).

 

[Lt. Ub]

I start my residency tomorrow -
Walter Reed Army Medical Center in D.C.

The allowance for housing is tax-deductible and can be quite variable due to cost-of-living differences. D.C. housing stipend for someone without dependents is over $1700/mo (very high!) in addition to a salaray of nearly $30,000/yr (a Capt. with 0 yrs service). So I'm living quite well for an intern.

Obviously, I can't shed light on residency life yet, but I can get back to you in a couple months. Nonetheless, I can say that if you're on the Army or Navy HPSP, seriously consider Walter Reed and the Nat'l Naval Medical Centers, because D.C. is a great city! It's full of young professionals and loaded with cultural experiences.

Feel free to PM me.

 

[bubbajones]

if you do the navy hpsp are there any bases in th south? what about the army hpsp? are there in in nyc or chicago?

 

[trauma_junky]

Don't opt out, just eat untill you can't pass the physical, then they discharge you and you don't have to pay back. Of course this means you don't have a pair, but it is done everyday.

 

[patriot_missile]

Eating too much is a permanent damage. But you have a point about the physical. If you want to get out, is there some way to make it so you're no longer fit for service but can still recover after they let go off you? What would they do if you pretended to be an alcoholic (which you werent when you signed the contract 4 years earlier)?

 

[bubbajones]

yall are pathetic

 

[patriot_missile]

lol

 

[idq1i]

getting back to the HPSP program... does the military pick up the tab for health insurance? I got conflicting answers to this.

 

[AlternateSome1]

From what I read, they only pay for med insurance if the school you are attending requires you to have it. I haven't had personal experience with this yet, however.

~AS1~

 

[idq1i]

Originally posted by AlternateSome1
From what I read, they only pay for med insurance if the school you are attending requires you to have it. I haven't had personal experience with this yet, however.

~AS1~

Is there really a school out there that doesn't?

 

[bubbajones]

if i want to be a pediatrician do which branch do yall recommend me going into?