Minimally Invasive / Laparoscopy Fellowships

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TBS

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Hey all. Anyone have any advice for MIS/Laparoscopy fellowships? I don't want to do much bariatrics, I want a fair amount of open cases so I don't lose my skills, and am looking throughout the country, but with an emphasis in the Midwest and in particular, Chicago. Any thoughts?

TBS

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Hey all. Anyone have any advice for MIS/Laparoscopy fellowships? I don't want to do much bariatrics,

Good luck, especially if you find yourself in the Midwest and "fatter" parts of the country. Expect to do a lot of bariatrics unless the program you are training at doesn't have such a program.

I want a fair amount of open cases so I don't lose my skills, and am looking throughout the country, but with an emphasis in the Midwest and in particular, Chicago. Any thoughts?

TBS

Our bariatric and MIS fellows (we had both) didn't do open cases unless they converted. Are you familiar with some programs where they also take general surgery call because I'm not. Everyone I've known who has done an MIS fellowship has done mostly bariatrics, Hellers, hernias, etc. and has only done opens when they've had to convert.

At any rate, check here for some more info: http://drslounge.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6496244#post6496244
 
MIS "fellowships" seem to focus mostly on bariatrics, roux-y, bands
with a few nissens and other stuff mixed in.

If you think about, how many lap hellers are done even in most busy centers? or adrenals for that matter.

In this day, most chiefs graduate with enough lap experience to do a bariatric case and certainlly a nissen.

The purists will say all general surgeons are laparoscopic surgeons, just like all general surgeons are trauma surgeons.

If you are hellbent on a MIS career, make sure you talk to the current fellows, AND the general surgery residents to see just how the politics are. the last thing you want is to be the "fellow" who steals and fights for cases vs. the residents. or double scrubbing etc...
 
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Since most general surgery residents graduate with extensive experience in lap operations, does an MIS fellowship have any value beyond being a credential for your CV? And as far as resumes go, is it really all that helpful?
 
I am also curious about why ESU_MD put "fellowships" and "fellow" in quotes. Does this imply that MIS is not a fellowship discipline that is on a par with something like plastics or surg onc that is a distinct surgical discipline?
 
I am also curious about why ESU_MD put "fellowships" and "fellow" in quotes. Does this imply that MIS is not a fellowship discipline that is on a par with something like plastics or surg onc that is a distinct surgical discipline?

where i am most of the mis people actually just do bariatric/band stuff and the occasional nissen.

everyone does laparoscopic cases... maybe moreso than they do opens, for "obvious" reasons.
 
I am also curious about why ESU_MD put "fellowships" and "fellow" in quotes. Does this imply that MIS is not a fellowship discipline that is on a par with something like plastics or surg onc that is a distinct surgical discipline?

Certainly not on par with a plastics fellowship anywhere, and probably not surg onc, although the latter depends on where you trained.

I suspect his comment is essentially the realization that most MIS fellows are simply doing the same cases the residents are. As a matter of fact, before my residency had both an MIS and a Bariatrics fellow, guess who did all the MIS cases? The residents!!! We still did them afterwards but you have to wonder whether or not you need such a fellowship.

But market forces are powerful - I probably didn't need a Breast fellowship to do Breast but it vastly increases my marketability and practices may find that an MIS fellowship trained surgeon is marketable. Whether that's true a few years from now as the insurance cuts on Bari care comes down the pike, remains to be seen.

So yeah, I think in many programs, the residents feel pretty darn comfortable with MIS procedures and wouldn't need a fellowship. There are probably some advanced cases (colons, spleens, adrenals, etc.) that you would get more of in a fellowship, but if your fellowship is all bariatrics, nissens, and appys/choles, I'd have to ask what is the benefit beyond marketing?
 
How challenging (and how much talent do you need) are rnys and lap bands as opposed to lap appys and choles? If there is a leak in the pouch in a bari patient, is that always the result of a mistake the surgeon made or could it just be due to the unnatural condition of having such a small pouch?
 
How challenging (and how much talent do you need) are rnys and lap bands as opposed to lap appys and choles? If there is a leak in the pouch in a bari patient, is that always the result of a mistake the surgeon made or could it just be due to the unnatural condition of having such a small pouch?

Lap Bands are not even in the same league of complexity as a Roux. The learning curve for the latter is fairly steep...it is estimated that it takes 100 lap Rouxs to be comfortable as opposed to the typical 30 cases for most other procedures.

Leaks may be technical failures or patient related.
 
For a typical gen surge resident in a big academic center, how many Rouxs would he/she do in 5 years? And how many would a typical Fellow do in a one year MIS fellowship?
 
For a typical gen surge resident in a big academic center, how many Rouxs would he/she do in 5 years? And how many would a typical Fellow do in a one year MIS fellowship?

It is extremely variable in both respects. I could tell you how many I did but that would be meaningless unless you knew how many every other resident in the country did AND you knew what your learning curve was.
 
Financially, even without considering the likely cuts in insurance for bari procedures, does it increase a surgeon's income to do a relatively small number of bari cases? Or would a gen surgeon who does some of these pay more in malpractice, thus wiping out any gains from higher pay for bari vs. lap choles, etc.?
 
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