Minorities in EM

[taustin17]

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Is anyone familiar with websites or sources that provide information on residency programs that have a good reputation for interviewing a good proportion of minority applicants?

Gosh- you would think future docs wouldn't be this easy!

 

[Telemachus]

By good proportion do you mean "blatant-affirmative-action" portion or just "non-white-supremacist" portion?

 

[GeneralVeers]

Is anyone familiar with websites or sources that provide information on residency programs that have a good reputation for interviewing a good proportion of minority applicants?

Where are you going with this question? Either way, it won't end up well.

 

[sweetfynesse]

By good proportion do you mean "blatant-affirmative-action" portion or just "non-white-supremacist" portion?

ouch...but i'm sure you werent trying to spare any feelings with that comment

anyway, i wouldnt be surprised if taustin17 is a troll, and you fell right into his/her trap.

 

[quideam]

 

[ElZorro]

this is the stupidest..... oh, a troll you say? How could that be with 1+ posts already?

 

[bugmenot]

i think meharry only interviews blacks, indians, and white females

 

[bigmonk]

I think Emory prides themselves on a ethnically/racially diverse faculty/residency. hope this helps.

 

[trkd]

Is anyone familiar with websites or sources that provide information on residency programs that have a good reputation for interviewing a good proportion of minority applicants?

Gosh- you would think future docs wouldn't be this easy!

Supposing that places with more minority residents interview more minorities (makes sense to me unless they are taking all minorities they interview), you could probably judge this by checking out the residents page at most program websites. That said, you will probably find a lot of programs without minorities there because not many apply there (as is seen in some homogeneously populated smaller cities which attracts more locals).

In all reality though, do many programs really base too much on skin color these days? Seems unlikely at this stage of the game but maybe I am an idealist.

 

[allendo]

Supposing that places with more minority residents interview more minorities (makes sense to me unless they are taking all minorities they interview), you could probably judge this by checking out the residents page at most program websites. That said, you will probably find a lot of programs without minorities there because not many apply there (as is seen in some homogeneously populated smaller cities which attracts more locals).

In all reality though, do many programs really base too much on skin color these days? Seems unlikely at this stage of the game but maybe I am an idealist.

I'm 1/32 cherokee, maybe that will get me in!

 

[bengrimm]

Is anyone familiar with websites or sources that provide information on residency programs that have a good reputation for interviewing a good proportion of minority applicants?

Gosh- you would think future docs wouldn't be this easy!

I happen to be a person of color in medicine - to be honest with you - the numbers are few - medicine only has about 8% people of color total across all specialities, the most popular being FP. The only areas that are still difficult for both people of color and women are ortho and urology - your token "white boy" specialities (sorry, but its true and you all know it). By best advice is to look at the current resident, the faculty, and the location of the residency. If you are concerned - make sure you hit all the programs with people of color as PDs or Asst PDs and major urban centers with large minority populations (atl, detroit, la, nyc, cleveland). Best of Luck.

 

[taustin17]

To the individuals that were intelligent and realistic enough to recognize that, to this day, there IS a disparity in minority recruitment/enrollment at some institutions, I thank you for your replies. After some of the asinine comments I received, it is comforting to know that there are individuals, regardless of race, that use this forum to help educate rather than belittle.

For future reference, those who continue to prove that ignorance is alive and well, do me a favor and do not respond to this message. You put TOO much worth in your opinion. Please go to another forum to post your asinine comments.

 

[GeneralVeers]

To the individuals that were intelligent and realistic enough to recognize that, to this day, there IS a disparity in minority recruitment/enrollment at some institutions, I thank you for your replies. After some of the asinine comments I received, it is comforting to know that there are individuals, regardless of race, that use this forum to help educate rather than belittle.

For future reference, those who continue to prove that ignorance is alive and well, do me a favor and do not respond to this message. You put TOO much worth in your opinion. Please go to another forum to post your asinine comments.

Don't pull the race card on your interview, or you'll torpedo your chances there. If I was in charge, if any applicant ever did that I'd automatically cross them off the list.

 

[RayF]

Don't pull the race card on your interview, or you'll torpedo your chances there. If I was in charge, if any applicant ever did that I'd automatically cross them off the list.

well said GV.. minority under-representation is indeed a major issue. ALL programs understand that. But avoid using the race issue as an asset on your app because it would take away from your other accomplishments. Emphasize any time you spent in working with minorities in health-fairs, community outreach programs, etc. in the inner cities.

good luck..

 

[MedicinePowder]

Bottomline certain programs are resistant to under-represented minorities. I am one that feels that hard work will let you loose; however, I kid you guys not, when speaking to a faculty member at a big program, he leaned over, looked around, and when he knew no one was around, said: "between me and you, this program is resistant to allowing latinos/blacks in the program, if it wasn't for me,we wouldn't have the one or two minorities in the program." There are stereotypes out there,and not long ago people were hung from trees because of the number of melanocytes in their dermis. In another forum, there is an attending who openly voiced his opinion that blacks and latinos are not as bright and can not function at a level of intelligence as a White or Asian physician. This attending works for a group and does the hiring. That's just an example. So in short, though the initial question sounded trollish, it was a valid question.

 

[taustin17]

Once again, thank you for the comments. Simply put- in the application process, I just would like to know with which institutions I will be walking onto a level playing field.

 

[NinerNiner999]

Just an observation, but if there are only 8% minorities in the field of medicine (as mentioned in a previous posting), and that is spread over all specialties, wouldn't it be clear that there aren't many practicing minorities in a single field? If this is the case how would one determine that there is a racially intolerant program if only 8% of applicants nationwide are minorities to begin with?

 

[GeneralVeers]

Just an observation, but if there are only 8% minorities in the field of medicine (as mentioned in a previous posting), and that is spread over all specialties, wouldn't it be clear that there aren't many practicing minorities in a single field? If this is the case how would one determine that there is a racially intolerant program if only 8% of applicants nationwide are minorities to begin with?

Additionally, programs don't have ultimate control over who they match. It's often as much of a crapshoot for programs as it is for applicants. Is a program who matches 10/10 white male interns considered to be a racist/sexist program? Sure you can rank the well-qualified black applicants at the top, but there's no guarantee any of them will match.

I think the question being asked is ridiculous. You should go to programs you're interested in, and rank the programs because you like them, not because of arbitrary demographics, or some perceived notion of social justice.

 

[bobg504]

Bottomline certain programs are resistant to under-represented minorities. I am one that feels that hard work will let you loose; however, I kid you guys not, when speaking to a faculty member at a big program, he leaned over, looked around, and when he knew no one was around, said: "between me and you, this program is resistant to allowing latinos/blacks in the program, if it wasn't for me,we wouldn't have the one or two minorities in the program." There are stereotypes out there,and not long ago people were hung from trees because of the number of melanocytes in their dermis. In another forum, there is an attending who openly voiced his opinion that blacks and latinos are not as bright and can not function at a level of intelligence as a White or Asian physician. This attending works for a group and does the hiring. That's just an example. So in short, though the initial question sounded trollish, it was a valid question.

I don't doubt your claim in the least bit. I am finishing my second year and have researched most residencies in Anesthesia and EM. Let's just say that the number of blacks and latinos is quite small. I understand that residency application is devoid of racial consideration, but it is quite dishearting to minority applicants (I am black 🙂 ) when they see a large number of programs have NO DIVERSITY (i.e. all white men). I think this question should be addressed. I will also say that just because a program doesn't have any minorities doesn't mean they are being exclusionary either. Many programs such as the Mayo Clinic have initiative to increase residency diversity, but it is hard to get minorities to move to Rochester for a variety of reasons. The bottom line is to apply to the programs you are interested in REGARDLESS of racial makeup of your collegues.

 

[bulgethetwine]

I happen to be a person of color in medicine - to be honest with you - the numbers are few - medicine only has about 8% people of color total across all specialities, the most popular being FP. The only areas that are still difficult for both people of color and women are ortho and urology - your token "white boy" specialities (sorry, but its true and you all know it). By best advice is to look at the current resident, the faculty, and the location of the residency. If you are concerned - make sure you hit all the programs with people of color as PDs or Asst PDs and major urban centers with large minority populations (atl, detroit, la, nyc, cleveland). Best of Luck.

I'm sick, potentially on my death bed, and I'm being evaluated by a resident.

I don't want someone treating me who got hired because of affirmative action by the same premise that I don't want someone treating me who got hired because his rich daddy is a philanthropist -- I want the best, most qualified applicant that the system has to offer me.

I don't care where he/she came from, or what color their skin is.

I think the original poster had a valid point -- he/she didn't want to go to a program that has a supposed inherent bias against minorities. But by the same token, don't be scared if a program has little minority representation, particularly if it is a small program as numbers may just not be representative.

I would also watch your attitude if you so cavalierly refer to urology, ortho, or any other specialty as "white boy" specialties. That doesn't sound like somene who is open minded, tolerant, and fair to me. It sounds like someone who is defensive, hypersensitive to criticism (you're gonna get a lot of it in medicine) and difficult to get along with.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I understand that residency application is devoid of racial consideration, but it is quite dishearting to minority applicants (I am black 🙂 ) when they see a large number of programs have NO DIVERSITY (i.e. all white men). I think this question should be addressed.

How would you address it? Would you have a racial quota system for residency? Would you automatically give preference to "disadvantaged" applicants? The fact is that the residency matching system works pretty well in its current form, and is as devoide of racial/ethnic discrimination as any system of capable of being.

BTW I've noticed that a disproportionate amount of tall, white, athletic males want to go into orthopedics. Could it possibly be that they are interested in sports, and want to go into a field that interests them?

 

[DOnut]

The bottom line is to apply to the programs you are interested in REGARDLESS of racial makeup of your collegues.

As a black male who just recently went through the match process, I must say that the OP question is extremely valid. I admit that when I was initally looking at programs, it was disheartening to see MANY programs, in urban areas with ALL or majority white residency classes. In my opinion, the bottom line is that there are not many of us (minorities) in medicine period. When you divide this small number among the number of different specialties, you are left with a very small pool. I can not speak for everyone, but for myself and my wife , it was important for us to live and train in an area where there is a fairly significant number of minorities. This eliminates many of the more rural programs, therefore you will see "more" minority residents training in urban programs.

I went to a historically black undergrad (Xavier University) and in the real world of medicine, you will never find a similar social setting. It's just not realistic. My recommendation is to apply, interview and rank programs that you like; regardless of the racial make-up of their residency classes. I will be the only minority in my up coming intern class at SUNY Upstate. This is not seen as a negative (in my eyes) but as an opportunity to potentially assess situations from a different point of view, taking into account the similarities between my life, social experiences and my patients (whether monority or not).

Hope I didn't get too deep at the end! Peace!

 

[Febrifuge]

I will also say that just because a program doesn't have any minorities doesn't mean they are being exclusionary either. Many programs such as the Mayo Clinic have initiative to increase residency diversity, but it is hard to get minorities to move to Minnesota. The bottom line is to apply to the programs you are interested in REGARDLESS of racial makeup of your collegues.

Bobg504, if you could, would you kindly say a little more about the idea that black people won't move to Minnesota? Because I'm from there, and in the 2000 census, one gets these figures (for percentage of population that's African-American):

St Louis 18.3% (highest African-American population density in a city, nationwide, in 2000)
Cleveland 16.8%
Minneapolis/ St. Paul 15.4%
(source: http://www.demography.state.mn.us/DownloadFiles/pdf/Census2000Race.pdf)

National Average: about 13%
(source: http://www.africanamericans.com/CensusBureauFacts.htm)

Granted, Mayo is about an hour and a half south, in Rochester, but the suggestion that African-Americans aren't willing to live in cities with cold weather is, well... 1.4 million African-American people live in Chicago, though I can't seem to find a quick total population for the city, so I have no idea what percentage that is.

Maybe I'm being a stubborn idealist too, but I gotta believe Mayo wants the best of everyone, plus as you say they have a commitment to not be so, well... you know. So Extremely White. (I trust it's okay for me to say that.) 😀

Your point is well-taken, though, that to apply to a program even when a look around doesn't reveal anyone else who looks like you must be a heavy thing to do -- but also that it's totally worth it.

One question I have is, isn't there a pretty bad disparity among incoming MS1's anyway? And wouldn't that just remain static once it's Match-time?

 

[quideam]

There are stereotypes out there,and not long ago people were hung from trees because of the number of melanocytes in their dermis. QUOTE]

Not to go off-subject or anything, but actually we all have the same number of melanocytes... 😀 😉

 

[Hercules]

I don't doubt your claim in the least bit. I am finishing my second year and have researched most residencies in Anesthesia and EM. Let's just say that you can count the number of blacks and latinos on two hands.

Are you reallysaying that there were less than 10 black/latino residents in all of the programs in Anesthesia and EM combined that you looked at? Where did you look? I guess I just find that hard to believe when there are 5 black residents in my program alone...

 

[DOnut]

Bobg504, if you could, would you kindly say a little more about the idea that black people won't move to Minnesota? Because I'm from there, and in the 2000 census, one gets these figures (for percentage of population that's African-American):

QUOTE]


🙄 🙄

Come on, I think you know what he means. Maybe North Dakota would have been a better example, or is there a huge unknown black population in Fargo?? 🙄 But knowing SDN, I'll get a reply from that ONE person. 😀

 

[GeneralVeers]

Look at our resident page:

http://www.mlkem.org/residents.html

5 black residents
5 Asian residents
2 Hispanics
3 Middle-Eastern
2 Indian

That's 17/34 residents. Not sure what people are complaining about. We don't intentionally promote diversity or racial favouritism either.

If you can count the number of blacks in EM on 2 hands, then you've just used up one hand on our program alone.

 

[bobg504]

How would you address it? Would you have a racial quota system for residency? Would you automatically give preference to "disadvantaged" applicants? The fact is that the residency matching system works pretty well in its current form, and is as devoide of racial/ethnic discrimination as any system of capable of being.

BTW I've noticed that a disproportionate amount of tall, white, athletic males want to go into orthopedics. Could it possibly be that they are interested in sports, and want to go into a field that interests them?

As to how I would address the disparity. I don't think there are any easy answers to that question. I don't think there should be any type of racial quotas (and from the tone of your post in seems as though you assume that is what I believe). As I said in my previous post, I believe that people should apply to programs they are interested in REGARDLESS of the racial makeup of their collegues. That is the bottomline.

 

[bobg504]

Bobg504, if you could, would you kindly say a little more about the idea that black people won't move to Minnesota? Because I'm from there, and in the 2000 census, one gets these figures (for percentage of population that's African-American):

QUOTE]


🙄 🙄

Come on, I think you know what he means. Maybe North Dakota would have been a better example, or is there a huge unknown black population in Fargo?? 🙄 But knowing SDN, I'll get a reply from that ONE person. 😀

With regards to my statement that black people won't move to Minnesota. I am not refering to ALL OF MINNESOTA. I guess I should have said Rochester. I did research at Mayo this summer and I thought it was a nice place, but had a rather homogeneous patient population. Granted, I WOULD do residency at Mayo if I had the chance it's just sort of small town "middle of nowhere" The Twin Cities are a completely different entity altogether. The Twin Cities are a metropolis. In all, I guess I used too broad of a generalization. My apologies.

 

[bobg504]

Bobg504, if you could, would you kindly say a little more about the idea that black people won't move to Minnesota? Because I'm from there, and in the 2000 census, one gets these figures (for percentage of population that's African-American):

St Louis 18.3% (highest African-American population density in a city, nationwide, in 2000)
Cleveland 16.8%
Minneapolis/ St. Paul 15.4%
(source: http://www.demography.state.mn.us/DownloadFiles/pdf/Census2000Race.pdf)

National Average: about 13%
(source: http://www.africanamericans.com/CensusBureauFacts.htm)

Granted, Mayo is about an hour and a half south, in Rochester, but the suggestion that African-Americans aren't willing to live in cities with cold weather is, well... 1.4 million African-American people live in Chicago, though I can't seem to find a quick total population for the city, so I have no idea what percentage that is.

Maybe I'm being a stubborn idealist too, but I gotta believe Mayo wants the best of everyone, plus as you say they have a commitment to not be so, well... you know. So Extremely White. (I trust it's okay for me to say that.) 😀

Your point is well-taken, though, that to apply to a program even when a look around doesn't reveal anyone else who looks like you must be a heavy thing to do -- but also that it's totally worth it.

One question I have is, isn't there a pretty bad disparity among incoming MS1's anyway? And wouldn't that just remain static once it's Match-time?

Who said anything about black people not moving to Minnesota because its cold? I never said that. I you are correct Minneapolis/ St. Paul IS NOT Rochester, MN.

 

[bobg504]

Are you reallysaying that there were less than 10 black/latino residents in all of the programs in Anesthesia and EM combined that you looked at? Where did you look? I guess I just find that hard to believe when there are 5 black residents in my program alone...

I didn't initially edit my statement as I thought I had. MY point is and I am sure you will agree there is a VERY SMALL amount of minorities in EM.

 

[bobg504]

Look at our resident page:

http://www.mlkem.org/residents.html

5 black residents
5 Asian residents
2 Hispanics
3 Middle-Eastern
2 Indian

That's 17/34 residents. Not sure what people are complaining about. We don't intentionally promote diversity or racial favouritism either.

If you can count the number of blacks in EM on 2 hands, then you've just used up one hand on our program alone.

At this point you should be clearly aware that your program is one of the EXCEPTIONS.

 

[Telemachus]

I didn't initially edit my statement as I thought I had. MY point is and I am sure you will agree there is a VERY SMALL amount of minorities in EM.

But given the overall paucity of minorities in medicine, is EM worse than average? At my institution the EM residents seem to be roughly proportional to the med students in terms of demographic variety......

 

[bobg504]

But given the overall paucity of minorities in medicine, is EM worse than average? At my institution the EM residents seem to be roughly proportional to the med students in terms of demographic variety......

I personally agree with you. Initially I was just speaking to the validy of the OP's question, basically saying that their question was appropriate.

 

[mfleur]

I still don't understand why you care what color the people you work with are, but if given the choice, I personally only like to work with purple people.

 

[GeneralVeers]

As to how I would address the disparity. I don't think there are any easy answers to that question. I don't think there should be any type of racial quotas (and from the tone of your post in seems as though you assume that is what I believe). As I said in my previous post, I believe that people should apply to programs they are interested in REGARDLESS of the racial makeup of their collegues. That is the bottomline.

So you're stating that there's a problem, but that none of the proposed solutions are appropriate. You also state that people should apply to progrrams regardless of the racial makeup. I believe that's how residency application is already structured. Therefore, no problem.

 

[bobg504]

So you're stating that there's a problem, but that none of the proposed solutions are appropriate. You also state that people should apply to progrrams regardless of the racial makeup. I believe that's how residency application is already structured. Therefore, no problem.

No, what I'm saying is that I don't have the solution to the problem and I can't solve the problem. At this point you seem to already believe that there "is not problem" so I won't waste anymore time replying to you. This matter is closed as it relates to my conversing with you.

 

[corpsmanUP]

I'm a halfbreed of the Mexican/Anglo variety and I had no problem with the match process. I don't think having a slightly obvious Latin name hurt me in any way. I had decent stats and I got a lot of great interviews. I found EM PD's and faculty almost everywhere to be some of the most open minded people I have ever met. The playing field is level at this "high a level" in my opinion. The problem with having few minorities in medicine needs to be addressed at the undergrad and medical school entry hurdle. That is where the real problem is. In Texas we have nearly half the population of the state as Mexican, but yet we have less Mexicans in medical school than any other nationality. Having bilingual physicians here is very important but yet the admissions' departments at medical schools across the state are in my opinion somewhat prejudice. I have seen qualified applicants passed over for admission for less than good reasons. I'm not a big fan of affirmative action because it is based solely on ethnicity. I think a scoring system should be in place to give credit for people from all disadvantaged backgrounds including poor white kids who grow up in rural trailor-ville!! Being disadvantaged is what keeps kids from getting to their maximum potential early but and this is often reflected in low GPA's and MCAT scores (relatively low...but still very noteworthy). I myself had a terribly poor MCAT score, but I was 99th percentile on 3 of my 4 board exams (COMLEX and USMLE I and II). Sorry to hijack the thread but I thought someone else with a few extra melanocytes should chime in.

 

[bobg504]

I'm a halfbreed of the Mexican/Anglo variety and I had no problem with the match process. I don't think having a slightly obvious Latin name hurt me in any way. I had decent stats and I got a lot of great interviews. I found EM PD's and faculty almost everywhere to be some of the most open minded people I have ever met. The playing field is level at this "high a level" in my opinion. The problem with having few minorities in medicine needs to be addressed at the undergrad and medical school entry hurdle. That is where the real problem is. In Texas we have nearly half the population of the state as Mexican, but yet we have less Mexicans in medical school than any other nationality. Having bilingual physicians here is very important but yet the admissions' departments at medical schools across the state are in my opinion somewhat prejudice. I have seen qualified applicants passed over for admission for less than good reasons. I'm not a big fan of affirmative action because it is based solely on ethnicity. I think a scoring system should be in place to give credit for people from all disadvantaged backgrounds including poor white kids who grow up in rural trailor-ville!! Being disadvantaged is what keeps kids from getting to their maximum potential early but and this is often reflected in low GPA's and MCAT scores (relatively low...but still very noteworthy). I myself had a terribly poor MCAT score, but I was 99th percentile on 3 of my 4 board exams (COMLEX and USMLE I and II). Sorry to hijack the thread but I thought someone else with a few extra melanocytes should chime in.

I knew there were some reasonable people out there. I agree with your assessment 100%

 

[Ceez]

At this point you should be clearly aware that your program is one of the EXCEPTIONS.

Exactly. And I believe a certain intern is bitter b/c he has to work with such a "diverse" class. You gotta work harder in medical school to ensure a match at one of those "good ol boy" residencies.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Exactly. And I believe a certain intern is bitter b/c he has to work with such a "diverse" class. You gotta work harder in medical school to ensure a match at one of those "good ol boy" residencies.

Yeah I hate all of my colleagues because of their skin color and/or ethnicity.

Grow up.

 

[bulgethetwine]

I'm a halfbreed of the Mexican/Anglo variety and I had no problem with the match process. I don't think having a slightly obvious Latin name hurt me in any way. I had decent stats and I got a lot of great interviews. I found EM PD's and faculty almost everywhere to be some of the most open minded people I have ever met. The playing field is level at this "high a level" in my opinion. The problem with having few minorities in medicine needs to be addressed at the undergrad and medical school entry hurdle. That is where the real problem is. In Texas we have nearly half the population of the state as Mexican, but yet we have less Mexicans in medical school than any other nationality. Having bilingual physicians here is very important but yet the admissions' departments at medical schools across the state are in my opinion somewhat prejudice. I have seen qualified applicants passed over for admission for less than good reasons. I'm not a big fan of affirmative action because it is based solely on ethnicity. I think a scoring system should be in place to give credit for people from all disadvantaged backgrounds including poor white kids who grow up in rural trailor-ville!! Being disadvantaged is what keeps kids from getting to their maximum potential early but and this is often reflected in low GPA's and MCAT scores (relatively low...but still very noteworthy). I myself had a terribly poor MCAT score, but I was 99th percentile on 3 of my 4 board exams (COMLEX and USMLE I and II). Sorry to hijack the thread but I thought someone else with a few extra melanocytes should chime in.

All good points. But I think maybe there are two issues here, obviously not unrelated:

I quote Corps:

1) The problem with having few minorities in medicine needs to be addressed at the undergrad and medical school entry hurdle and

2) Being disadvantaged is what keeps kids from getting to their maximum potential early but and this is often reflected in low (grades) ... Corps mentioned GPA's and MCAT scores, but it could be expanded to (grades)?

I think that more emphasis should be placed on problem #2 in hopes of building a more sustainable solution to #1. For one thing, it wouldn't restrict the results to just medicine -- presumably by solving #2 a society also gets more minorities in engineering, government, teaching, and other positions of leadership and influence.

In other words, there is no quick fix a la affirmative action that would be justifiable or fair to all. But #2 benefits all disadvantaged regardless of race (i.e. also benefits non minorities that are otherwise disadvantaged).

 

[bulgethetwine]

Exactly. And I believe a certain intern is bitter b/c he has to work with such a "diverse" class. You gotta work harder in medical school to ensure a match at one of those "good ol boy" residencies.

That is a stupid comment on several levels.

 

[trkd]

Exactly. And I believe a certain intern is bitter b/c he has to work with such a "diverse" class. You gotta work harder in medical school to ensure a match at one of those "good ol boy" residencies.

Poor form. Very poor form. 👎 👎

I would take any intern class as long as it didn't have people with attitudes like yours.

 

[4paw]

2) Being disadvantaged is what keeps kids from getting to their maximum potential early but and this is often reflected in low (grades) ... Corps mentioned GPA's and MCAT scores, but it could be expanded to (grades)?

I think that more emphasis should be placed on problem #2 in hopes of building a more sustainable solution to #1. For one thing, it wouldn't restrict the results to just medicine -- presumably by solving #2 a society also gets more minorities in engineering, government, teaching, and other positions of leadership and influence.

In other words, there is no quick fix a la affirmative action that would be justifiable or fair to all. But #2 benefits all disadvantaged regardless of race (i.e. also benefits non minorities that are otherwise disadvantaged).

That was the socialist/communist groups' response to women who asked for a correction to sexism within the groups. they said that when the revolution came, there would be no such thing as oppression anymore. So, i'm intrigued:

1)You're getting pretty close to a revolutionary class analysis. Bravo!

2)Instead of reinventing the wheel, this path has been travelled thoroughly by left-wing groups throughout the seventies and eighties. Many talked about how these systems of oppression are not totally logical, they operate on emotional and unconscious levels. In order to change things, it is important to do personal work - work with the internalized racism, sexism, classism that permeates the psyche. That can be done now, doesn't need to wait for a revolution. Heads-up that this path gets very personal, and also that it does not remain entirely in the realm of objective observation and logic. google probably still works - any socialist feminist google, or anarchist feminist thing will take you into the intricacies of this.

Now, folks have been struggling for equitable society for a very long time - and we've got a sense of capitalist free-world that will block a lot of those ideas. Where will 'reasonably-priced' labour come from? Your response has been called untenable before because it is too utopic, and misses the world-as-it-is, and what can be done now. you probably already know that affirmative action is meant to allow people who may identify with oppressed groups in a position to share power, and perhaps use that power to change things. i think that's more likely than thinking that privileged people will one day start thinking and feeling in ways that guide them to consistently make decisions which will erode their own power and privilege.

***edit: my apology for making this post in a forum that was ultimately straight-forward about emergency medicine. i'm contributing to the problem, in a way by encouraging these sorts of conversations to go right back to a low-knowledge-level debate, when sometimes a question is wanting to work with people who agree on the basics, and have a higher-knowledge-level discussion of a specific issue. apologies to the op.***********

 

[Febrifuge]

🙄 🙄 Come on, I think you know what he means. Maybe North Dakota would have been a better example, or is there a huge unknown black population in Fargo?? 🙄 But knowing SDN, I'll get a reply from that ONE person. 😀

Hey now, fellow citizen, let's stay respectful. I really wasn't trying to be a pedant, or a pain in the ass. There's a stereotype out there that the Midwest is all this frigid, lily-white, boring expanse of hicksville. And it's actually only mostly true. In a discussion like this one, I often hear the "yeah, but [name of ethnic or cultural group] wouldn't want to live there anyway."

Long story short, sorry for bustin' out with facts and figures. Discussions about irrational beliefs and predjudices never improve by adding that kind of stuff. 🙄

BobG: I'm sorry I added on the "...because it's cold" thing to your otherwise very coherent point. That's a part of the stereotype, and I got fished in by it, but you never said it. And it's true, too, that Rochester is, for some reason, like another universe. One would think that with the Mayo and IBM both employing so many people, the population of Rochester wouldn't have to be so (as you said, referring to the Mayo patient mix) homogenous.

For what it's worth, that homogeneity doesn't seem okay to me or most of the people I know, just because we blend with it. Obviously it's a totally different situation, and I don't mean to presume, but I moved from a big multi-culti city to out-state-nowhere for school last year, and it just feels wrong. I know I'm probably just an idealist who lacks actual knowledge, but maybe things will change ... ?

 

[Febrifuge]

...The playing field is level at this "high a level" in my opinion. The problem with having few minorities in medicine needs to be addressed at the undergrad and medical school entry hurdle. That is where the real problem is...

See, this makes a lot of sense to me. I gotta learn to be more clear.

 

[bulgethetwine]

"You probably already know that affirmative action is meant to allow people who may identify with oppressed groups in a position to share power, and perhaps use that power to change things. i think that's more likely than thinking that privileged people will one day start thinking and feeling in ways that guide them to consistently make decisions which will erode their own power and privilege.


Is THIS your argument to support affirmative action, a cynical conviction that people are not capable of thinking and feeling in ways that guide them to consistently make decisions which will erode their own power and privilege?

 

[4paw]

"You probably already know that affirmative action is meant to allow people who may identify with oppressed groups in a position to share power, and perhaps use that power to change things. i think that's more likely than thinking that privileged people will one day start thinking and feeling in ways that guide them to consistently make decisions which will erode their own power and privilege.


Is THIS your argument to support affirmative action, a cynical conviction that people are not capable of thinking and feeling in ways that guide them to consistently make decisions which will erode their own power and privilege?

yes. based on our culture's inability to make decisions around distribution of wealth, destruction of our environment, and class history. slight revision - not incapable, simply blind and unwilling to see, wrapped in a soft blanket of cultural hegemony.

edit: actually, what you responded to was the last sentence. the argument forwarded was that affirmative action is a positive-feedback strategy to work on those 'root' problems, and as a strategy does less to threaten the nodes of power as they are currently implemented through, for instance, discourses of the individual's right to get ahead (rather than a culture's responsibility to exist in a good way, etc.) Affirmative action, therefore, as a strategy that was implemented and not left on the cutting floor of revolutionary ideas, has merit, despite its liberal premises (liberal in the formal sense of the word, imbued in enlightenment language of the individual and equality of opportunity, level playing field, etc). Rather than a lot of talk about root problems which would require a new world order to emerge, in order to be possible. I'm with you on that one, I've done my fair share of demonstrating. Potlucks are fun! Unless you count 'no child left behind' as addressing your concerns.

 

[Sessamoid]

My graduating EM class of 8 didn't have a single white male in it. We had one guy who looked white, but was actually light skin-toned guy of middle eastern descent.