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Minority Student

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by thundercat77, May 2, 2002.

  1. thundercat77

    thundercat77 Member
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    Hello everyone. I don't understand AMCAS's or medical school's idea of a "minority student." Being an Asian American, I thought I was a minority (we comprise 7% of the U.S. population). Unfortunately, Asians are not considered minorities. Perhaps AMCAS or educational institutions should come up with a better name to categorize Black Americans, Hispanic/Latinos, and Native American students.

    Am I being racist? No, I just think this whole process is....quite bull****, especially when people keep saying that I am not a minority. But when I look around in America, there are 3 times as many Black Americans and 2 times as many Latinos in America.

    People say, "You must diversify our insitution in order to make it fair or the best." Well, how would "minorities" feel if the NBA adopted such a policy? "We need more Sri Lankan shooting guards, so sorry Tyrone, try the CBA." Or, what if Major League Baseball shut down Latin American operations because we needed to "diversify" our sport? "Sorry Jose, but we need some more Swedish pitchers on our team..."

    Don't even call me a racist. Let the first one who has not sinned cast the stone....This is my opinion/frustrations being posted and I just wanted to know how people feel.

    This is what makes America so great.

    Lionel
     
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  3. Dr. Will

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    All latinos/hispanics are not considered URMs. I'm a latino, but I don't fall into this category. Only those of Mexican or Puerto Rican (mainland) descent are latino URMs.
     
  4. med student

    med student Senior Member
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    It frustrates many of us :mad: :mad: but I don't have to deal with it anymore because residencies generally do not use race as a selection criteria. It's about time we are judged on our qualifications. <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />
     
  5. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    Well said Thundercat. You pointed out what I feel is an inherent logical flaw in affirmative action: when to apply it and when not to. If "AA" is going to be used in our country, there should at least be consistency and reason used to determine when it is applied.
     
  6. Dr. Don

    Dr. Don Senior Member
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    another AA discussion...I'm not even going to get into that....but for your information there are definitely more "asian" doctors than "latino" or "african american" doctors COMBINED....No offense to anyone who thinks the system is bull ****, because quite frankly it is...we just have to do the best we can to work within it!
     
  7. DOnut

    DOnut Senior Member
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    This is just to inform you of how AMCAS and AACOMAS determine who is an URM. Asians Americans represent approx. 7% of the population. According to AMCAS and AACOMAS, this means that the number of Asian American physicians should be approx. 7%. African Americans represent 13% of the population, so therefore the same 13% should be true as far as the number of physicians is concerned. In reality, more than 7% of american physicians are Asian American. Also, far less than 13% of American physicians (1.5%)are African American. The same goes for mainland Puerto Rican, as well as Mexican and Native American. I believe there are a few others as well. This is not saying that Asian Americans are not minorities, they are just saying that Asian American physicians are well represented. Just for the record, I too believe this is BS, but I'm an URM.
     
  8. To reiterate what DOnut said, no one said you weren't a minority. They just said that you were not UNDERREPRESENTED in the field of medicine, and that's all that AMCAS cares about.

    I also get really tired of people using really dumb and irrelevant analogies like the NBA. No one has a social obligation to make races equally represented in the NBA. Providing entertainment and providing health are like comparing apples to oranges. However, there is a social obligation to train physicians that are statistically more likely to serve underserved populations (which statistically they say are URMs). Do you have any better ideas? Or do you expect this organization to overlook this need and do nothing about it? Until people contribute better ideas to solve the problem, it does no good to complain about it.

    Also, I can't tell you the number of times that people of color have said to me that they need more black physicians (ie because some people want to go to physicians that look like them . . . maybe racist on their part, but hey, it's their health and right).
     
  9. none

    none 1K Member
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    People who discuss medical school admissions are often VERY careful to refer to those given special admission consideration as "under-represented minorities" and definitely not just minorities. There are many "minorities" who are extremely over-represented in medicine.
     
  10. Ryo-Ohki

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    Why aren't Vietnamese considered URM? They are significantly under represented. Is it just because they are Asian?

    Why are Off Main Island Puerto Ricans not URMs? Why are main island Puerto Ricans considered URMs?

    Discriminating on the basis of race complications matters so much, doesn't it?
    <a href="http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/start.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/start.htm</a>

    So white doctors can't treat black patients because they are white? That's an interesting argument that I haven't heard before.
     
  11. gel1

    gel1 Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
    <strong>So white doctors can't treat black patients because they are white? That's an interesting argument that I haven't heard before.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you are referring to what Nikki posted about black patients preferring black doctors, then you are grossly misunderstanding what she said. She has a very good and valid point. The most important thing is for patients to feel comfortable with their doctors. If this means that someone of their same race makes them feel most comfortable, then every effort should be made to find a doctor that matches. Many medical errors and overall dissatisfaction with healthcare stems from communication issues. Patients need to trust their doctors to communicate well. Doctors are providing a service. Patients choose their doctors and not the other way around.
     
  12. Ryo-Ohki

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    So......a black patient can't feel as comfortable around a white doctor simply because of the doctor's race? That's the impression I'm getting from these posts.

    I think the most important thing is for people to get the best ,brightest, and most qualified doctors to treat their ills....regardless of their race....but that's just me.
     
  13. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Ryo-Ohki, patients have the right to choose whoever doctor they feel most comfortable with. Part of informed consent is the right to choose treatment from whomever you please. For you to make that over-generalization that "the most important thing is for people to get the best ,brightest, and most qualified doctors to treat their ills....regardless of their race" is open for interpretation. Who says the 'best' physician for any particular patient is one who got higher scores?...or one who graduated higher in their class?? The fact of the matter is, if you graduate from medical school and a residency in your specialty you are ALL qualified physicians. It's not about who's more likely to treat the patient better because of higher scores. And for that matter, who says URM's all make lower grades then non-URM's??

    Look...there is a problem because there are so many URM communities that are under-served. Why is this?? Because non-URM pre-medical students like yourself use the pre-text that you want to treat anyone and everyone, and sometimes give off the impression that you want to specifically serve these underrepresented communities (to get into medical school), when in reality...it has been shown that most of the non-URMs opt for a different field of service - obviously because the conditions are more desireable. On the other hand, a higher percentage of URM's who say they intend to go back and work in their communities DO actually go through with it.

    Any way you put it, medical school admissions is not entirely about grades and it's not entirely about race.
     
  14. jmejia1

    jmejia1 Senior Member
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    The fact of the matter is that Asians are heavily over-represented in the field of medicine; whereas, Blacks, Mexican-Americans, and Mainland Puertoricans are grossly under-represened.

    AAMC thus introduces the term Under-represented minority.

    Ther reason why AAMC feels an obligation to recruit URMs is based on the fact that URMs are many times more likely to practice in medically underserved communities; not because URM won't see White or Asian doctors, but because not enough White and Asian doctors wish to work in South Central and East Los Angeles.

    Being a URM also doesn't mean you get a free ride. It simply means that it's one of many factors that SOME schools consider. If it was as great as many thought, wouldn't groups like Mexican-Americans compromise more than the current 2.5% of entering medical students?

    I don't know to what extent Vietnamese and other specific ethnic groups are represented in medicine relative to thier population in the US, but if they are found to be underrepresented, then I agree that such groups should be targeted for recruitment.
     
  15. Ryo-Ohki

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    So if our goal is to get doctors to minority areas with lower income........why don't we specifically target doctors who will go to these areas?.....instead of targeting races? Make doctors sign contracts before entering medical school (there's a similar plan in place for teachers).

    I think this contract will be a much better filter then a person's race.

    Umm...the AAMC says the average URM has a lower MCAT then others? I don't think people would be complaining so much if the URMs had similar MCATs and GPAs. The fact is, they are significantly worse on average in these two criteria.
     
  16. jifi

    jifi Member
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    I agree with HippocratesX,

    The fact is that URMs are more likely to practice in underserved communities that are generally Latino and Black communities. A recent meta analysis by the Institute of Medicine titled ?Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care? cites that all variables being equal (insurance, wealth?etc.) Blacks and Latinos still receive lesser health care. It continues to state how the source of the disparity is complex and historic. Given that most physicians are not Latino and/or Black is it not understandable that a Black or Latino patient would prefer a Black or Latino physician? They just might get better care and as patients don?t we deserve the best care?
     
  17. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Wrong again...our GOAL is two-fold...yes, we want to find those future physicians who will serve URM communities, most probably with lower income, yet you're still missing the other part.

    You can't FORCE yourself upon a patient or group of patients. Here comes the social issue part. Assuming the physician is well-qualified (and we have already established that as he has his diploma from xyz school of medicine and has completed his residency at abc hospital), a URM would MUCH rather choose the physician that he can relate too socially and culturally. If you don't believe me, why don't you do a simply survey of 100 URMs that are not in the medical community. In case you haven't noticed, we are NOT living in a society which is considered one big ole' happy melting pot. The fact is, in the larger perspective, Like approaches like. This is NOT up for debate. Now you may choose to ponder the reasons why this is the case, but regardless, it is still true.

    So, as to your suggestion to make future physicians sign contracts, it might be a good idea, but then again, it could get very complicated as to WHO has to sign and who doesn't. Frankly, I think its quite desparate on your part to even suggest it...
     
  18. Ryo-Ohki

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    People who want special treatment like the URMs get now will get the opportunity to sign the contract. I don't see how that is complicated. And, like I said, the match rate on this filter will be much higher then using a race filter.

    I just want a world where we don't discriminate on the basis of race. I'm sorry that you disagree with me.
     
  19. Mary Jane Watson

    Mary Jane Watson Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by HippocratesX:
    <strong>

    You can't FORCE yourself upon a patient or group of patients. Here comes the social issue part. Assuming the physician is well-qualified (and we have already established that as he has his diploma from xyz school of medicine and has completed his residency at abc hospital), a URM would MUCH rather choose the physician that he can relate too socially and culturally. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a good point... For (kind of an) example: I am a woman and I go to a woman OB/GYN... I don't feel comfortable speaking to a man about these issues/problems, and I feel my doctor can really relate to my concerns because we are both women. This is very important in patient/doctor relations - patients must feel like they can relate to us in some way, to establish trust and a relationship. Just like I feel more comfortable going to a woman, some minorities feel more comfortable seeing a doctor that is like them as well.
     
  20. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Apparently you are not getting the point.

    The discrimination happens when there are over-represented physicians in a certain race who end up neglecting under-represented communities. What about that?? You can look to yourself and say, "well I've been reverse-discriminated against since a person with lower stats got a seat and I didn't." But what about the larger picture? What about those communities who are being neglected?

    There may be a slight tinge of unfairness to the individual's rights, but in a more important, wider perspective, we have to look out for the larger populations/communities - (which, unfortunately are clumped together according to race).
     
  21. matthew0126

    matthew0126 Anaheim Angels
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    now i really know the baton has been passed to the class of 2007 -- when all these threads starting popping up again.
    btw i agree the process is bull****.
     
  22. sandflea

    sandflea Senior Member
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    how is this discrimination on the basis of race when not all ethnicities within certain races are considered 'underrepresented'? specifically i am referring to the fact that only mexican americans and mainland puerto ricans--but no other hispanic ethnicities--are considered URMs. why? because the numbers of mexican americans and mainland puerto ricans are FAR less than their numbers in the general population. these ethnicites (along with cubans) comprise the largest section of the hispanic population this country, which as we all know is growing quite rapidly, yet their representation in the medical field is very small. in response to your earlier comment, vietnamese applicants aren't considered URMs because the number of vietnamese doctors is more representative of the numbers of vietnamese in the general american population. however, pacific islanders *are* considered URMs in some areas. it's about the proportion of certain ethnicities, not about racial discrimination.

    URMs don't ask for 'special treatment' and to imply that is ridiculous. it's no individual's fault or doing that certain ethnicities aren't as represented in the medical field as others. for you to state it this way demonstrates that despite the number of times people on this thread have attempted to explain what 'URM' means, you still don't understand the point--or perhaps that you refuse to see it.
     
  23. Ryo-Ohki

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    Yes, the discrimination that happens when physicians in a certain race ignore under-represented communities just because of the community's racial makeup is WRONG.
    Yes, the discrimination that happens when someone with significantly worse MCATs and GPAs gets into medical school just because of his race is WRONG.

    Two wrongs do not make a right.

    edit: No, Vietnamese doctors aren't proportional to the general Vietnamese population.
    You are an URM if you describe yourself as black, american indian, alaskan native, mexican american, or Mainland Puerto Rican.
    If you describe yourself as Commonwealth Puerto Rican, other Hispanic, or Asian/Pacific Islander, you are not a URM.
    I'm not sure where you got the data that in some places, some asian/pacific islanders are considered URM. I would recheck your sources.

    <a href="http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/char99.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/char99.pdf</a>
     
  24. sandflea

    sandflea Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
    <strong>Yes, the discrimination that happens when physicians in a certain race ignore under-represented communities just because of the community's racial makeup is WRONG.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um, is this really a widespread phenomenon like you're making it seem? where are you getting this from?

    once again, it's not about race. yet you still bring race into it.

    what ethnicity are you, ryo-ohki? if that ethnicity were suddenly designated 'underrepresented', would you be posting these same thoughts?
     
  25. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Absolutely...2 wrongs do not make a right! So what has AMCAS done in dealing with this? Both AMCAS, the medical community and the government have chosen the lesser of the 2 evils/wrongs....which is:

    The rights of the community are greater than the rights of the individual. My point exactly.
     
  26. Rezul

    Rezul Portuguese Momma
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    I too disagree with medical schools categorizing groups of people as URM or non-URMs. I've always wondered, what exactly is an "ethnicity"?? Terms like "Mexican-American" lead me to believe ethnicity can be equated with nationality or being descendents of a particular nationality. However, why then are countries in other parts of the world not defined as "ethnicities"? The general categorization of whites includes people of European descent, but there are many different countries in Europe. I can surely tell you that some countries in Europe are severly underrepresented in US medicine. I'm the daughter of Portuguese immigrants. Does that make my ethnicity Portuguese-American? If so, shouldn't I be considered URM since there are so few Portuguese-American doctors?? Honestly, I wouldn't want to be considered a URM because I want to compete with the whole applicant pool and know that my credentials alone were good enough for medical admission. I am just saying that if medical schools are going to define people on the basis of ethnicity, they better recognize ALL different ethnicities. Just my 2 cents.

    Rezul
     
  27. sandflea

    sandflea Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Rezul:
    <strong> I'm the daughter of Portuguese immigrants. Does that make my ethnicity Portuguese-American? If so, shouldn't I be considered URM since there are so few Portuguese-American doctors??
    Rezul</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you're missing the second half of the issue. yes, perhaps there are very few portuguese-american doctors, but is there a disproportionately high number of portuguese-americans in the general US population along with that? i'm betting there isn't.
     
  28. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    haha, this is interesting. Let's break this one down, shall we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

    okay, I don't know the statistics, but for the sake of argument, let's just say there are very few Portugese-American doctors. Does this constitute the need for more Portugese-American doctors, just because there are not many of them with this specific ethnicity? NO. Why u ask? Well, let's look at the amount of civilians/population/people who are Portugese-American AND who are not receiving proper health care because the non-Portugese-American doctors have neglected their community (assuming they HAVE a community;).....I haven't looked this up either, but I'll venture to say that there are not many.

    So Rezal, your statement still lacks explanation and/or proper reasoning. You still haven't explained why you disagree with the categorization of Underrepresented and non-underrepresented/over-represented.

    See, you can try to take a certain argument and RUNNNNN with it, but really, if you're trying to enter an academic field, let us, at the very least, display some common sense.
     
  29. Ryo-Ohki

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by HippocratesX:
    <strong>Both AMCAS, the medical community and the government have chosen the lesser of the 2 evils/wrongs....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you do admit that medical school discrimination against non-URM is wrong. You just think the greater good is served by the discrimination.

    I disagree. There is a better way of serving the community then by admitting under qualified URMs. The option you propose produces fewer doctors (see 1999 New England article on URM medical school drop out rate) and wastes precious educational resources. This option produces racial tension. This option violates many people's sense of procedural justice. This option hurts qualified URMs by making people think they only got into medical school because of their race.

    No, this option does not serve the greater good.

    BTW, government is changing their view on AA. Look at the decisions on AA in the states of California, Florida, Texas, Washington, etc. AA is dying. The only argument the supreme court has used for AA is compelling state interest in diversity. However, they are soon realizing that ethnic diversity does not equate into intellectual diversity.
     
  30. sandflea

    sandflea Senior Member
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    ryo-ohki, why do i get the impression that you're making this up as you go along and passing it off as responses to other people's points? :rolleyes:

    due to the futility of these debates, which pop up on these boards on a fairly regular basis, i'm backing out of this thread....
     
  31. Ryo-Ohki

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by sandflea:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
    [qb]Yes, the discrimination that happens when physicians in a certain race ignore under-represented communities just because of the community's racial makeup is WRONG.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um, is this really a widespread phenomenon like you're making it seem? where are you getting this from?

    once again, it's not about race. yet you still bring race into it.

    {QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm responding several people at a time in one post. This particular one you had a question on is in response to Hipp X. Read the entire thread again. It will make sense then.
     
  32. Damn, I hate these threads, but I feel helpless as a moth TO A FLAME.

    Hey, NOBODY GETS IN JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE UNDERREPRESENTED.
     
  33. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    No, to correct your assumption, I do not agree that it is "discrimination" to admit a URM who has lower stats. NOr do I agree to the vice versa, that it ISSS discrimination at all to reject a non-URM who has better stats than a URM who was accepted. I have already explained that what makes a good doctor is not strictly on paper.

    Furthermore, I was doing you a favor by bringing the individual's injustice on the same level with the community's injustice. What u did not seem to digest is that the "discrimination" can go both ways. The URM communities' needs have been neglected far too long.

    And as for the "lesser injustice to society being the admission of higher stats, regardless of representation in community":

    are u suggesting that the option i propose (which is the current process) produces far less doctors because, 1. the more URM's are admitted, the more they will drop out??! That is what you are saying by quoting your little New England Journal article. That's preposterous!

    And who says they are UNDERQUALIFED to begin with? There is a BIG difference between letting someone IN who is UNDERQUALIFIED in stats and perhaps, NOT AS HIGHLY QUALIFIED according to stats only.

    Next, For you to tell me that precious resources are being wasted on URM's is just bull****.

    Next, it produces racial tension?? For who?? Are u kidding me? Which one produces more racial tension? Perhaps on your side, looking at the URM, but obviously you haven't put yourself in the other person's shoes. Or for that matter, the URM communities' shoes.

    And as for your last point, believe me,.... qualified URM's already accepted into med schools could give LESS OF A ****TTTT what other people think of them. Who cares what people think about your particular reasons for acceptance, anyway? Is that really the issue here?

    You said that there is a better way to serve the community, but in reality what you proved is that there is a better way in serving YOURSELF! All the reasons you listed were NEGATIVE...meaning what bad things come out of it for the individual, instead of what BETTER things could come out if acceptance was purely based on statistic qualifications.

    Plus, you are purely looking at ENTRANCE INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL. What about that the URM doctors who make it through just as successfully as the next non-URM and serve the URM community. Is that lesser of a good then you being accepted cause you had a 30 mcat and 'Tyrone' had a 27? You are willing to discuss wasting resources and racial tensions non-URM's may feel toward URM's, but you have done NOTHING to solve the problem of URM communities who are still under-served.
     
  34. Ryo-Ohki

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oneironaut:
    <strong>
    Hey, NOBODY GETS IN JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE UNDERREPRESENTED.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html</a>
     
  35. Damn, I hate these threads, but I feel helpless as a moth TO A FLAME.

    Hey, NOBODY GETS IN JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE UNDERREPRESENTED.

    Everyone whines how numbers don't reflect personality. . . until they get upset that someone with lesser scores got in. . .

    Hey, I'm a urm, my gpa is below average, my mcat is a little above. And I'm accepted.

    There exist a HELL OF A LOT of people with better scores then me, who didn't get in. . .

    Whats missing from this picture? Nobody yet has commented on ECs, on personal experience. Look, if it were just a numbers game, schools would be all asian. (okay, is that a reverse discrimination racist statement?)

    The fact is, its nice having a mix of people, grades don't make a doctor, and actually have pretty damn little to do with emmpathy or kindness or patience. You know what, when I was a kid, I never saw mexican doctors, and I actually thought I couldn't be one, because I thought you had to be rich. (Ignorant kid was I) but the fact is diversity raises our whole society.

    Don't make a single argument to me, based on numbers, if you don't like the whole urm thing.
    And if anyone cares, I hated getting singled out during interviews and stuff- but from the schools side, they want the BEST students, urm or not, so of course they're going to try and woo the urm's.

    Okay... I'm starting to babble and my arguments are growing weaker. . . Grrr. I hate these urm topics.
     
  36. Ryo-Ohki

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Even if one ignores all issues of grades and MCAT examination results, the probability of this many Black/Hispanic acceptances given the number who applied is less than 1 in 4 million. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html</a>
     
  37. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oneironaut:
    <strong>
    Hey, NOBODY GETS IN JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE UNDERREPRESENTED.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/sanfrancisco/ucsf-med-98.html </a></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. thats a reputable source NOT!!!

    IF YOU TRIM THE URL DOWN TO THIS:

    <a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/</a>

    You see there is also bit from a legal firm looking for business based on prop 209. Here I'll post a snippet:

    The Pacific Legal Foundation is interested in hearing from individuals who feel they have been discriminated against in violation of California Proposition 209. They can be reached at 1-866-xxxxxxx

    Theres also more stuff about discrimination. Its just some kids site. Big deal.

    Christ, check your sources.
     
  38. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Man ohhhh Man, Ryo-Ohki...you CERTAINLY have a selective interpretation of people's statements, don't you?

    In defense of oneironaut...his statement that said.."HEY NOBODY GETS IN JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDERREPRESENTED" did not mean that URM's are not being accepted due to under-representation.

    What he was TRYING to say, is that IT IS NOT ONLYYYYY BECAUSE OF UNDER-REPRESENTATION, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE QUALIFIED AS WELL.
     
  39. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    At least, that's the way I interpreted it...correct me if i'm wrong Oneironaut :)
     
  40. nods hippocrates ;-)
     
  41. damnit, lets go to the chatroom where we can brawl :) :) :)
     
  42. Ryo-Ohki

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    Oneironaut, trim the url down a little further.
    Hippo, You're missing basic inferences. Get some sleep.

    Good night. It's been fun.
     
  43. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Once again, let's look at this quote you posted Ryo-Ohki:

    quote: "Even if one ignores all issues of grades and MCAT examination results, the probability of this many Black/Hispanic acceptances given the number who applied is less than 1 in 4 million"

    So what you're saying is...that its pointless to accept black/hispanic students anyway, becauseeeeee their chances of acceptance are SLIM to NONE (1 in 4 million) to begin with?? Is that what you are saying?? Or was that quote put there to prove to Oneironaut that URM's are accepted because of under-representation in medicine?
     
  44. you trim it down further its the ucsd page. but at the level of your link, its a users page, not university.

    who cares. go to the chat room. I'm not posting anymore.
     
  45. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Even if the chances are 1 in 4 million of being accepted (whereever the hell that statistic came from)wouldn't you suggest ENCOURAGING MORE URM APPLICANTS, rather then discouraging those with medium-to-lower scores from applying????

    Again, please explain the point of that quote.
     
  46. Ryo-Ohki

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    Cook is an associate professor at UCSD and a graudate of MIT.

    All the data on that site is publicly available through use of the Freedom of Information Act.

    Seriously, good night kids.
     
  47. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    I'm not missing any BASIC inferences whatsoever. YOu just misinterpreted oneironaut's point, that's all. And as for sleep...it's over-rated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

    Well, i'm gettin pretty tired of this thread too, so I think i'll get to what i'm supposed to be doing now....
     
  48. thundercat77

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    Someone stated above that people don't get in because of race...let me tell you, that's 110% horsecrap.

    I met a guy who got a 23 on his MCAT, was Hispanic, had regular EC's, decent GPA, and solid recommendations. Guess what? He went to UCLA....If that were me (Asian American), UCLA wouldn't even take a second look at my name. So don't even tell me that race has nothing to do with acceptance. In fact, I know many Egyptian Americans who mark "African American" to increase their chances of an acceptance in order to qualify as a "minority." These brothers are whiter than snow, yet they claim to be "African American. Negro, please.....A while back, UCLA would print out a list of all those applicants interviewed and accepted at their medical school. The list would only contain race, GPA, and MCAT scores. Most of the Asian Americans and white Americans were furious because they would constantly see "minorities" with less than standard qualifications being accepted. So, UCLA discontinued printing out this list.

    All I'm saying is that race should not supercede qualifications. Race is not an excuse to let someone be less than stellar.
     
  49. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Whatever..the data may be completely true, but that's NOT the point.

    What IS the point, is that because the chances for blacks/hispanics to be accepted are so low (1 in 4 million as you so devoutedly assert) IS EVERY REASON TO BACK MY POINT THAT THERE IS UNDER-REPRESENTATION, and not a reason for saying, Aw shucks...they don't have a chance anyway, so just give me a seat in your med school.

    And that's....MY FINAL ANSWER;)
     
  50. HippocratesX

    HippocratesX Member
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    Thundercat, go back and read the debate earlier on about the difference between race and representation.
     
  51. med student

    med student Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 1. the more URM's are admitted, the more they will drop out??! That is what you are saying by quoting your little New England Journal article. That's preposterous!

    And who says they are UNDERQUALIFED to begin with? There is a BIG difference between letting someone IN who is UNDERQUALIFIED in stats and perhaps, NOT AS HIGHLY QUALIFIED according to stats only.
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no idea if the first statistic is true I just have a problems with the logic that was used by HippocratesX. Here is where I have the problem and feel free to correct me HippocratesX if I misinterpretted something you said. You have made it clear that you believe some URMs get in with lower GPAs and MCAT (I am not trying to argue whether this should be the case or not). Now you may or may not know that medschool can be extremely difficult and every year a few people in each class drop out or have to repeat a year. If we can agree that everything so far is true then it would not take a leap of faith that the people who got in the class with the lowest GPAs and MCAT are more likely than the rest of the class to be the ones who have difficulty in classes and have to repeat them or drop out of school.
     

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