More applicants per population in Canada than the US - why?

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pms_testosterone

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These data from AAMC show there were 52,777 unique applicants to US medical schools in 2018/2019. The US has a population of about 326 million; 162 applicants/million people.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

Meanwhile, this document from AFMC shows there were 13,690 unique applicants to Canadian med schools in 2016/2017. Canada has a population of about 37 million; 370 applicants/million people.

https://afmc.ca/sites/default/files/CMES2017-Section8-Applicants.pdf

Unless someone did their stats wrong, it's massively more popular to become a doctor in Canada than the US. Why?

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These data from AAMC show there were 52,777 unique applicants to US medical schools in 2018/2019. The US has a population of about 326 million; 162 applicants/million people.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

Meanwhile, this document from AFMC shows there were 13,690 unique applicants to Canadian med schools in 2016/2017. Canada has a population of about 37 million; 370 applicants/million people.

https://afmc.ca/sites/default/files/CMES2017-Section8-Applicants.pdf

Unless someone did their stats wrong, it's massively more popular to become a doctor in Canada than the US. Why?
Extraordinarily lower tuition, I would assume.

Tuition for Canadian medical school ranges from $2000-12000 annually. In addition, many of the schools only require 2 or 3 years of schooling prior to matriculation.

Success rate is only 10% as well.
 
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Plausible explanations, but I speculate:

Better functioning and more equitable healthcare system inspires broader swath of student population to go into medicine.

Competitiveness / difficulty of obtaining white collar jobs outside the professions very high and drives people towards more secure jobs

Lower UG debt allows students to be less fearful of long training pipelines if they don’t come from means
 
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Plausible explanations, but I speculate:

Better functioning and more equitable healthcare system inspires broader swath of student population to go into medicine.

Competitiveness / difficulty of obtaining white collar jobs outside the professions very high and drives people towards more secure jobs

Lower UG debt allows students to be less fearful of long training pipelines if they don’t come from means

I would agree that lower tuition and poorer career options would encourage more Canadians to apply. One of the reasons that the schools up there are cheap is that outside of McGill, Toronto, Western Ontario and UBC, there is very little research coming out of Canada. They run most of their medical schools like LECOM. Job 1 is pumping out clinicians.

I disagree that their system functions better. I know someone in Wisconsin who was deemed to be in need of a hip replacement two weeks ago. She is scheduled for surgery in 10 days. My cousin in Ontario was put on the hip replacement waiting list two years ago. He's still waiting. He takes 10 naproxin per day. I hope that stuff doesn't kill him.

If you think the Canadian healthcare system is so great, look at the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court related to Quebec's prohibition of the sale of private health insurance.
CanLII - 2005 SCC 35 (CanLII)

Here are the juicy parts of the opinion:

"The Superior Court judge stated [translation] “that there [are] serious problems in certain sectors of the health care system” (p. 823). The evidence supports that assertion. After meticulously analysing the evidence, she found that the right to life and liberty protected by s. 7 of the Canadian Charter had been infringed. As I mentioned above, the right to life and liberty protected by the Quebec Charter is the same as the right protected by the Canadian Charter. Quebec society is no different from Canadian society when it comes to respect for these two fundamental rights. Accordingly, the trial judge’s findings of fact concerning the infringement of the right to life and liberty protected by s. 7 of the Canadian Charter apply to the right protected by s. 1 of the Quebec Charter.

39 Not only is it common knowledge that health care in Quebec is subject to waiting times, but a number of witnesses acknowledged that the demand for health care is potentially unlimited and that waiting lists are a more or less implicit form of rationing (report by J.‑L. Denis, Un avenir pour le système public de santé (1998), at p. 13; report by Y. Brunelle, Aspects critiques d’un rationnement planifié (1993), at p. 21). Waiting lists are therefore real and intentional. The witnesses also commented on the consequences of waiting times.

40 Dr. Daniel Doyle, a cardiovascular surgeon, testified that when a person is diagnosed with cardiovascular disease, he or she is [translation] “always sitting on a bomb” and can die at any moment. In such cases, it is inevitable that some patients will die if they have to wait for an operation. Dr. Doyle testified that the risk of mortality rises by 0.45 percent per month. The right to life is therefore affected by the delays that are the necessary result of waiting lists.

41 The Quebec Charter also protects the right to personal inviolability. This is a very broad right. The meaning of “inviolability” is broader than the meaning of the word “security” used in s. 7 of the Canadian Charter. In civil liability cases, it has long been recognized in Quebec that personal inviolability includes both physical inviolability and mental or psychological inviolability. This was stated clearly in Quebec (Public Curator) v. Syndicat national des employés de l’hôpital St‑Ferdinand, 1996 CanLII 172 (SCC), [1996] 3 S.C.R. 211, at para. 95:

Section 1 of the Charter guarantees the right to personal “inviolability”. The majority of the Court of Appeal was of the opinion, contrary to the trial judge’s interpretation, that the protection afforded by s. 1 of the Charter extends beyond physical inviolability. I agree. The statutory amendment enacted in 1982 (see An Act to amend the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, S.Q. 1982, c. 61, in force at the time this cause of action arose) which, inter alia, deleted the adjective “physique”, in the French version, which had previously qualified the expression “intégrité” (inviolability), clearly indicates that s. 1 refers inclusively to physical, psychological, moral and social inviolability.

Furthermore, arts. 1457 and 1458 of the Civil Code of Québec, S.Q. 1991, c. 64, refer expressly to “moral” injury.

42 In the instant case, Dr. Eric Lenczner, an orthopaedic surgeon, testified that the usual waiting time of one year for patients who require orthopaedic surgery increases the risk that their injuries will become irreparable. Clearly, not everyone on a waiting list is in danger of dying before being treated. According to Dr. Edwin Coffey, people may face a wide variety of problems while waiting. For example, a person with chronic arthritis who is waiting for a hip replacement may experience considerable pain. Dr. Lenczner also stated that many patients on non‑urgent waiting lists for orthopaedic surgery are in pain and cannot walk or enjoy any real quality of life.

43 Canadian jurisprudence shows support for interpreting the right to security of the person generously in relation to delays. In R. v. Morgentaler, 1988 CanLII 90 (SCC), [1988] 1 S.C.R. 30, at p. 59, Dickson C.J. found, based on the consequences of delays, that the procedure then provided for in s. 251 of the Criminal Code, R.S.C. 1970, c. C‑34, jeopardized the right to security of the person. Beetz J., at pp. 105-6, with Estey J. concurring, was of the opinion that the delay created an additional risk to health and constituted a violation of the right to security of the person. Likewise, in Rodriguez v. British Columbia (Attorney General), 1993 CanLII 75 (SCC), [1993] 3 S.C.R. 519, at p. 589, Sopinka J. found that the suffering imposed by the state impinged on the right to security of the person. See also New Brunswick (Minister of Health and Community Services) v. G. (J.), 1999 CanLII 653 (SCC), [1999] 3 S.C.R. 46, and Blencoe v. British Columbia (Human Rights Commission), [2000] 2 S.C.R. 307, 2000 SCC 44 (CanLII), with respect to mental suffering. If the evidence establishes that the right to security of the person has been infringed, it supports, a fortiori, the finding that the right to the inviolability of the person has been infringed.

44 In the opinion of my colleagues Binnie and LeBel JJ., there is an internal mechanism that safeguards the public health system. According to them, Quebeckers may go outside the province for treatment where services are not available in Quebec. This possibility is clearly not a solution for the system’s deficiencies. The evidence did not bring to light any administrative mechanism that would permit Quebeckers suffering as a result of waiting times to obtain care outside the province. The possibility of obtaining care outside Quebec is case‑specific and is limited to crisis situations.

45 I find that the trial judge did not err in finding that the prohibition on insurance for health care already insured by the state constitutes an infringement of the right to life and security. This finding is no less true in the context of s. 1 of the Quebec Charter. Quebeckers are denied a solution that would permit them to avoid waiting lists, which are used as a tool to manage the public plan. I will now consider the justification advanced under s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter.
 
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I would agree that lower tuition and poorer career options would encourage more Canadians to apply. One of the reasons that the schools up there are cheap is that outside of McGill, Toronto, Western Ontario and UBC, there is very little research coming out of Canada. They run most of their medical schools like LECOM. Job 1 is pumping out clinicians.

I disagree that their system functions better. I know someone in Wisconsin who was deemed to be in need of a hip replacement two weeks ago. She is scheduled for surgery in 10 days. My cousin in Ontario was put on the hip replacement waiting list two years ago. He's still waiting. He takes 10 naproxin per day. I hope that stuff doesn't kill him.

If you think the Canadian healthcare system is so great, look at the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court related to Quebec's prohibition of the sale of private health insurance.
CanLII - 2005 SCC 35 (CanLII)

Here are the juicy parts of the opinion:

"The Superior Court judge stated [translation] “that there [are] serious problems in certain sectors of the health care system” (p. 823). The evidence supports that assertion. After meticulously analysing the evidence, she found that the right to life and liberty protected by s. 7 of the Canadian Charter had been infringed. As I mentioned above, the right to life and liberty protected by the Quebec Charter is the same as the right protected by the Canadian Charter. Quebec society is no different from Canadian society when it comes to respect for these two fundamental rights. Accordingly, the trial judge’s findings of fact concerning the infringement of the right to life and liberty protected by s. 7 of the Canadian Charter apply to the right protected by s. 1 of the Quebec Charter.

39 Not only is it common knowledge that health care in Quebec is subject to waiting times, but a number of witnesses acknowledged that the demand for health care is potentially unlimited and that waiting lists are a more or less implicit form of rationing (report by J.‑L. Denis, Un avenir pour le système public de santé (1998), at p. 13; report by Y. Brunelle, Aspects critiques d’un rationnement planifié (1993), at p. 21). Waiting lists are therefore real and intentional. The witnesses also commented on the consequences of waiting times.

40 Dr. Daniel Doyle, a cardiovascular surgeon, testified that when a person is diagnosed with cardiovascular disease, he or she is [translation] “always sitting on a bomb” and can die at any moment. In such cases, it is inevitable that some patients will die if they have to wait for an operation. Dr. Doyle testified that the risk of mortality rises by 0.45 percent per month. The right to life is therefore affected by the delays that are the necessary result of waiting lists.

41 The Quebec Charter also protects the right to personal inviolability. This is a very broad right. The meaning of “inviolability” is broader than the meaning of the word “security” used in s. 7 of the Canadian Charter. In civil liability cases, it has long been recognized in Quebec that personal inviolability includes both physical inviolability and mental or psychological inviolability. This was stated clearly in Quebec (Public Curator) v. Syndicat national des employés de l’hôpital St‑Ferdinand, 1996 CanLII 172 (SCC), [1996] 3 S.C.R. 211, at para. 95:

Section 1 of the Charter guarantees the right to personal “inviolability”. The majority of the Court of Appeal was of the opinion, contrary to the trial judge’s interpretation, that the protection afforded by s. 1 of the Charter extends beyond physical inviolability. I agree. The statutory amendment enacted in 1982 (see An Act to amend the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, S.Q. 1982, c. 61, in force at the time this cause of action arose) which, inter alia, deleted the adjective “physique”, in the French version, which had previously qualified the expression “intégrité” (inviolability), clearly indicates that s. 1 refers inclusively to physical, psychological, moral and social inviolability.

Furthermore, arts. 1457 and 1458 of the Civil Code of Québec, S.Q. 1991, c. 64, refer expressly to “moral” injury.

42 In the instant case, Dr. Eric Lenczner, an orthopaedic surgeon, testified that the usual waiting time of one year for patients who require orthopaedic surgery increases the risk that their injuries will become irreparable. Clearly, not everyone on a waiting list is in danger of dying before being treated. According to Dr. Edwin Coffey, people may face a wide variety of problems while waiting. For example, a person with chronic arthritis who is waiting for a hip replacement may experience considerable pain. Dr. Lenczner also stated that many patients on non‑urgent waiting lists for orthopaedic surgery are in pain and cannot walk or enjoy any real quality of life.

43 Canadian jurisprudence shows support for interpreting the right to security of the person generously in relation to delays. In R. v. Morgentaler, 1988 CanLII 90 (SCC), [1988] 1 S.C.R. 30, at p. 59, Dickson C.J. found, based on the consequences of delays, that the procedure then provided for in s. 251 of the Criminal Code, R.S.C. 1970, c. C‑34, jeopardized the right to security of the person. Beetz J., at pp. 105-6, with Estey J. concurring, was of the opinion that the delay created an additional risk to health and constituted a violation of the right to security of the person. Likewise, in Rodriguez v. British Columbia (Attorney General), 1993 CanLII 75 (SCC), [1993] 3 S.C.R. 519, at p. 589, Sopinka J. found that the suffering imposed by the state impinged on the right to security of the person. See also New Brunswick (Minister of Health and Community Services) v. G. (J.), 1999 CanLII 653 (SCC), [1999] 3 S.C.R. 46, and Blencoe v. British Columbia (Human Rights Commission), [2000] 2 S.C.R. 307, 2000 SCC 44 (CanLII), with respect to mental suffering. If the evidence establishes that the right to security of the person has been infringed, it supports, a fortiori, the finding that the right to the inviolability of the person has been infringed.

44 In the opinion of my colleagues Binnie and LeBel JJ., there is an internal mechanism that safeguards the public health system. According to them, Quebeckers may go outside the province for treatment where services are not available in Quebec. This possibility is clearly not a solution for the system’s deficiencies. The evidence did not bring to light any administrative mechanism that would permit Quebeckers suffering as a result of waiting times to obtain care outside the province. The possibility of obtaining care outside Quebec is case‑specific and is limited to crisis situations.

45 I find that the trial judge did not err in finding that the prohibition on insurance for health care already insured by the state constitutes an infringement of the right to life and security. This finding is no less true in the context of s. 1 of the Quebec Charter. Quebeckers are denied a solution that would permit them to avoid waiting lists, which are used as a tool to manage the public plan. I will now consider the justification advanced under s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter.


Two things: first of all, this thread is about why the premed path is more popular in Canada. I posited essentially two related speculative explanations: 1) fewer or smaller barriers to staying on the premed path and 2) more effective, broadly appealing, or attractive motivating factors related to becoming a physician. One of those is that the Canadian healthcare system itself seems like a more attractive, positive, and gratifying place to work to a greater number of ppl because of the populations opinion of the healthcare system, which is related to the actual effectiveness, equity, efficiency of the system.

I’m not interested in arguing whether or not the Canadian system is better as I suspect I will never change your mind and engaging in this argument will only further derail the thread. Thankfully, there are a very large number of good studies and meta studies related to the ranking of healthcare systems and I believe that the results of those studies can speak for themselves on the metrics actually related to the health of the population more so than some legal jargon about private care and your anecdotes. Please keep the thread on topic.
 
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Two things: first of all, this thread is about why the premed path is more popular in Canada. I posited essentially two related speculative explanations: 1) fewer or smaller barriers to staying on the premed path and 2) more effective, broadly appealing, or attractive motivating factors related to becoming a physician. One of those is that the Canadian healthcare system itself seems like a more attractive, positive, and gratifying place to work to a greater number of ppl because of the populations opinion of the healthcare system, which is related to the actual effectiveness, equity, efficiency of the system.

I’m not interested in arguing whether or not the Canadian system is better as I suspect I will never change your mind and engaging in this argument will only further derail the thread. Thankfully, there are a very large number of good studies and meta studies related to the ranking of healthcare systems and I believe that the results of those studies can speak for themselves on the metrics actually related to the health of the population more so than some legal jargon about private care and your anecdotes. Please keep the thread on topic.

I simply cited some contrary evidence in the form of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada and the vastly different experiences of two people with the same medical issue. You opened up that issue. I didn't.
 
It would be interesting to see the rate of overall college enrollment to medical school enrollment for both countries
 
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