More CMG vs SGD and the future of EM

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EctopicFetus

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Viewpoint: No Fate but What We Make It : Emergency Medicine News

"
The movie “Looper” is driven by several individuals who are motivated by the interest of someone they love. Any reasonable person placed in their shoes would take the same steps. Unfortunately, these actions, despite the pure and rational intentions behind them, end tragically.

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contract management....
I fear this is the point we have reached in emergency medicine. We have long been an amalgamation of sorts — independent contractors, democratic groups, contract management groups, and hospital employees. I am one of the latter. Market factors have kept a reasonable balance among these competing entities, but some of these factions, acting in their own best interests, may now be jeopardizing the profession we love.

Capitalism. Democracy. Freedom. These pillars of American society are unraveling our specialty at the cost of what built it — the patient and the clinician. The commotion has grown as democratic groups, small and large, become increasingly obsolete, bought out or competed out by larger contract management groups. Complex market forces are at play, to be sure, but what is the eventual impact to emergency medicine?

Democratic groups have long been the bedrock of not only emergency medicine but medicine at large. Positions in these groups have traditionally been among the highest paid, most desired and have increased autonomy. Why, if democratic groups are so lucrative, are they selling out and losing contracts to contract management groups with accelerating frequency? The reasons are multifactorial in today's changing health care environment. Many influences besides money create incentives for individuals in a group to sell — nearing retirement, burnout, job and contract insecurity, negotiating power, administrative fatigue, and ease of practice. Or sometimes they just want to be the first one off the sinking ship. These reasonable motives may be best for the individual and the group, but they may drown our specialty.

What of contract management groups? Some claim to be majority physician-owned and -controlled, which sounds good. Having physicians as high-level executives, however, may be a semantic technicality that is a better recruiting tool than a true indication of equitable ownership to the frontline working doc. Like Animal Farm, some physicians are more equal than others. Nevertheless, the current aim of these large groups seems to be growth, which is financially shrewd because larger scale improves negotiating power with the equally consolidated insurance companies and hospital groups: Fighting fire with fire, so to speak; eat or be eaten.

Growth comes at a cost, however. Cash is required to buy out groups, offer hospitals enticing contracts, and recruit physicians. This capital comes from investment firms taking stake in many of the contract management groups. It makes for strange bedfellows to invite those who see right and wrong as profit and loss into the sacred realm of medicine. These “rainmakers” do not care about the Hippocratic Oath, doctor-patient relationship, or individual physician but the bottom line: return on investment. As these contract management groups grow in scale, so does their profitability, not just in the ability to streamline aggressive billing and negotiate with hospitals or insurance companies, but also to improve productivity through thinner staffing and cost controls through their biggest expenditure — physician salaries.

Increasing use of midlevel providers will improve the bottom line at the potential detriment to patient care and decrease physician demand, further lowering salaries. As health care expenditure grows unsustainably, adding more middlemen between the patient and the physician, especially profit-hungry ones, would seem a poor strategy to control cost. As these contract management groups and their financial backers obtain a critical mass of market share, first locally, then nationally, they will become the primary set point of our salaries and our future.

Competition breeds success, and perhaps contract management groups are simply the victors collecting their spoils. Monopolies work, in board games and in life, but they disproportionately favor the few at the expense of the many. Competition among democratic groups with each other and with other entities encourages fair compensation to the individual physician. As competition falters and the market share of democratic groups shrinks, so too will the salaries of the working clinician. Few of us went into emergency medicine for the money, but naïveté about its influence is dangerous.

As salaries fall in comparison with other specialties, so will the competitiveness of our residency applicants. And what of the patient? Traditionally, hospitals or individual physicians could simply look for another option to ensure patients receive optimal care if a democratic or contract management group fell short of expectations. What choice will there be when all of emergency medicine is managed by three groups? Or two? Or one? Contract management groups in and of themselves are not evil, nor are democratic groups inherently noble, but we all benefit from choice in the marketplace regardless of practice type or location. Progressive loss of this competition through corporate consolidation will, in the long run, be a detriment to the practicing physician and the patient.

Medicine is certainly a business, and that is truer today than ever. I understand from a business standpoint why democratic groups are selling out, why hospitals are changing contracts, and why contract management groups are expanding. It would seem wise to do that if I were in their shoes, but at what eventual cost to emergency medicine? How is disaster averted in “Looper?” One individual makes the ultimate sacrifice for society to survive. Whether choosing that next job or holding that next shareholder vote, maybe the time has come for some of us to do the same."

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If so, I'd prefer the mercury based version. Way more advanced than the robotic prototype.


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Is there anything left that baby boomers haven't ruined for gen x and the millenials?
 
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Pretty accurate assessment in my book. However, depending on how payment models and market forces evolve, I think there may be a time when the CMGs collapse as the hospitals decide to cut out the middleman and employ physicians directly. It obviously happens to some extent already, but systemic changes could strongly push us in that direction. Not sure if it's any better or worse. That said, trying to predict how the bigger US medical system (including payment paradigms) will evolve is pretty much impossible at this point.
 
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If so, I'd prefer the mercury based version. Way more advanced than the robotic prototype.


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And less likely to impregnate their mothers, thereby starting a paradoxical causal loop.
 
Pretty accurate assessment in my book. However, depending on how payment models and market forces evolve, I think there may be a time when the CMGs collapse as the hospitals decide to cut out the middleman and employ physicians directly. It obviously happens to some extent already, but systemic changes could strongly push us in that direction. Not sure if it's any better or worse. That said, trying to predict how the bigger US medical system (including payment paradigms) will evolve is pretty much impossible at this point.

If hospitals were smart they would cut out all the middleman and do a Kaiser does.

If the government was smart it would offer national Medicaid servicing teaching hospitals, create a national public "VA" based on cost management, repeal EMTALA and non-profits, and allow private hospitals w/ private insurance (like swiss or Australia)

If we were smart we would Challenge the ACA interpretation of the Stark law and open our own places run by equity-owning doctors who accept bundled payments for services, and provide mortality and morbidity adjusted stats for outcomes.

But alas
 
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If the government was smart it would offer national Medicaid servicing teaching hospitals, create a national public "VA" based on cost management, repeal EMTALA and non-profits, and allow private hospitals w/ private insurance (like swiss or Australia)
That's roughly what South Africa does with its med students - they all work at the gov't hospitals during school and residency. The better, more expensive care is at the private hospitals
 
I think there may be a time when the CMGs collapse as the hospitals decide to cut out the middleman and employ physicians directly.

I think this is the future. It's slowly happening. I took a job as a hospital employee and the company is axing a CMG from 2 other hospitals in my area. Considering this company owns many hospitals in numerous states, I suspect they will slowly begin to do the same elsewhere.
 
I'm afraid that Skynet is already self-aware...

Hospitals employing us is even worse than CMGs. At least with CMGs there is a "buffer" albeit thin of physician management between you and the hospital. Physicians also have some degree of autonomy over how they staff themselves, their practice, and reimbursement. Once you are hospital-employed all this goes out the window, as your new hospital administrator overlords will seek to force you to meet their arbitrary and (clinically) irrelevant metrics.

There may be a time when we look back on our CMG rulers as enlightened and benign.
 
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Pretty accurate assessment in my book. However, depending on how payment models and market forces evolve, I think there may be a time when the CMGs collapse as the hospitals decide to cut out the middleman and employ physicians directly. It obviously happens to some extent already, but systemic changes could strongly push us in that direction. Not sure if it's any better or worse. That said, trying to predict how the bigger US medical system (including payment paradigms) will evolve is pretty much impossible at this point.
That's going to happen. As hospitals start mo
I'm afraid that Skynet is already self-aware...

Hospitals employing us is even worse than CMGs. At least with CMGs there is a "buffer" albeit thin of physician management between you and the hospital. Physicians also have some degree of autonomy over how they staff themselves, their practice, and reimbursement. Once you are hospital-employed all this goes out the window, as your new hospital administrator overlords will seek to force you to meet their arbitrary and (clinically) irrelevant metrics.

There may be a time when we look back on our CMG rulers as enlightened and benign.
Say what you will about CMG staffing, it's a hell of a lot better than hospital RN staffing.
 
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You have to hand it to them... The CMG's sure know how to make crack. I've tried a dozen times to muster up the energy and willpower to break free and join a nice SDG somewhere selling me future hotcakes in exchange for X yrs sweat equity and I just can't give up the crack. Life is just so much easier in this model though I know my soul is being sucked out of me by the CMG version of one of those space vampires from the movie Lifeforce.
 
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You have to hand it to them... The CMG's sure know how to make crack. I've tried a dozen times to muster up the energy and willpower to break free and join a nice SDG somewhere selling me future hotcakes in exchange for X yrs sweat equity and I just can't give up the crack. Life is just so much easier in this model though I know my soul is being sucked out of me by the CMG version of one of those space vampires from the movie Lifeforce.

Exactly. Even if pay was at parity, the fact that I can work as much or as little as I want, control my own schedule, and not have to worry about my equity being stolen/sold is worth it. The SDG business model is dead in the new era of medicine. I'm not even sure how they can make themselves competitive to new docs, while keeping things fair for the existing ones.
 
Exactly. Even if pay was at parity, the fact that I can work as much or as little as I want, control my own schedule, and not have to worry about my equity being stolen/sold is worth it. The SDG business model is dead in the new era of medicine. I'm not even sure how they can make themselves competitive to new docs, while keeping things fair for the existing ones.

It's becoming less about the money and more about the control I suppose.
 
It's becoming less about the money and more about the control I suppose.
How much control do SDGs really offer? If your hospital wants you gone, you'll probably be gone. If your C-suite decides that every patient has to have an MD personally evaluate them even in fast-track, your group will do it. If the MEC decides they need your group to cover unattended births, your group is now extraordinarily undertrained OBs. The only thing that protects your group is how good your leadership is at anticipating and appeasing the whims of the C-suite.
 
I would say much more control.
I've worked for community academic, part time cmg, and now sdg.
A great way to understand it is there is one pie and we split it like we want to.
We want to increase our pay we can cut coverage and see more pts/hr or re negotiate with insurers.
You need to increase or decrease coverage. Discuss it at next meeting and then change next schedule.
At one of my other jobs took 2 years to get increased coverage after increase volume from 35k to 40k. And single night person routinely walking into 15 people to be seen and 3 hr waits with angry pts.
Working for a small group has opened my eyes quite a bit.
Also enjoy the sense of ownership



How much control do SDGs really offer? If your hospital wants you gone, you'll probably be gone. If your C-suite decides that every patient has to have an MD personally evaluate them even in fast-track, your group will do it. If the MEC decides they need your group to cover unattended births, your group is now extraordinarily undertrained OBs. The only thing that protects your group is how good your leadership is at anticipating and appeasing the whims of the C-suite.
 
I would say much more control.
I've worked for community academic, part time cmg, and now sdg.
A great way to understand it is there is one pie and we split it like we want to.
We want to increase our pay we can cut coverage and see more pts/hr or re negotiate with insurers.
You need to increase or decrease coverage. Discuss it at next meeting and then change next schedule.
At one of my other jobs took 2 years to get increased coverage after increase volume from 35k to 40k. And single night person routinely walking into 15 people to be seen and 3 hr waits with angry pts.
Working for a small group has opened my eyes quite a bit.
Also enjoy the sense of ownership

So yes and no. I agree that it gives you a little more control over the system, but at the same time, you have less control over your own self. All the shifts have to be staffed. Your SDG isn't going to fill it from a pool. If you decide to increase staffing, then you can. It also means you're hiring a new person or everyone is working more that month. At the same time, if the hospital comes to you and says "we want docs in triage 24/7", then you have to do that. If they do like they did to @RustedFox and tell you to make "happiness rounds" upstairs, then you get to do that.

True power is the private practice of emergency medicine, which is FSEDs and UCs. There, you get to make every decision. Sure, you still have to staff it, but that's the only downside.
 
How much control do SDGs really offer? If your hospital wants you gone, you'll probably be gone. If your C-suite decides that every patient has to have an MD personally evaluate them even in fast-track, your group will do it. If the MEC decides they need your group to cover unattended births, your group is now extraordinarily undertrained OBs. The only thing that protects your group is how good your leadership is at anticipating and appeasing the whims of the C-suite.

Agree or disagree?

Do I have more control in an SDG than in a CMG?

I rest my case. More control is a good thing. Am I perfectly in control of every detail? No. You need to own 100% of a FSED to do that. Plus, sometimes my partners outvote me.
 
Agree or disagree?

Do I have more control in an SDG than in a CMG?

I rest my case. More control is a good thing. Am I perfectly in control of every detail? No. You need to own 100% of a FSED to do that. Plus, sometimes my partners outvote me.

There are trade-offs. Generally in an SDG you are required to work full time, and have limited control over your schedule. Those are two very good quality-of-life aspects which make working part-time for a CMG very attractive. I also have the ability to rape CMGs for large bonuses if they are short-staffed or can't fill shifts, something which I couldn't do with an SDG the because the "pie" is already eaten.
 
So your main benefit is being able to screw your employer? Interesting perspective.

And I'm certainly NOT required to work full time. I'm required to work the shifts I committed to work at the beginning of the year. In our group, a partner as work as few as 6 eights a month. I am able to get essentially any day off I desire, don't have to work evenings or nights if I don't wish to, can take up to 14 days off in a row without anyone's approval, and the group routinely approves 3 weeks off in a row. In addition, swaps are relatively easy. I don't know...doesn't seem like that's the same as "required to work full time....[with]...limited control over your schedule." All you're losing is your ability to demand $500 an hour to cover an undesirable shift in an undesirable location.
 
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So your main benefit is being able to screw your employer? Interesting perspective.

And I'm certainly NOT required to work full time. I'm required to work the shifts I committed to work at the beginning of the year. In our group, a partner as work as few as 6 eights a month. I am able to get essentially any day off I desire, don't have to work evenings or nights if I don't wish to, can take up to 14 days off in a row without anyone's approval, and the group routinely approves 3 weeks off in a row. In addition, swaps are relatively easy. I don't know...doesn't seem like that's the same as "required to work full time....[with]...limited control over your schedule." All you're losing is your ability to demand $500 an hour to cover an undesirable shift in an undesirable location.

It doesn't seem that bizarre to me to see this as a benefit, especially when the "employer" is screwing you over with:

1. Artificially inflated malpractice premium withholdings.
2. Ever-expanding ranks of "regional district vice vice directors of (whatever)", but no increases in boots-on-the-ground doc coverage.
3. Opaque bookkeeping.
4. Dirty lobbying, or outright bribery and nepotism.
5. [write your own complaint here]
 
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So your main benefit is being able to screw your employer? Interesting perspective.

And I'm certainly NOT required to work full time. I'm required to work the shifts I committed to work at the beginning of the year. In our group, a partner as work as few as 6 eights a month. I am able to get essentially any day off I desire, don't have to work evenings or nights if I don't wish to, can take up to 14 days off in a row without anyone's approval, and the group routinely approves 3 weeks off in a row. In addition, swaps are relatively easy. I don't know...doesn't seem like that's the same as "required to work full time....[with]...limited control over your schedule." All you're losing is your ability to demand $500 an hour to cover an undesirable shift in an undesirable location.

Great. If your SDG operates in a tax-free state with snow-free weather I would consider. In my home city, my choices are: EmCare, TeamHealth, and USACS.
 
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So your main benefit is being able to screw your employer? Interesting perspective.

And I'm certainly NOT required to work full time. I'm required to work the shifts I committed to work at the beginning of the year. In our group, a partner as work as few as 6 eights a month. I am able to get essentially any day off I desire, don't have to work evenings or nights if I don't wish to, can take up to 14 days off in a row without anyone's approval, and the group routinely approves 3 weeks off in a row. In addition, swaps are relatively easy. I don't know...doesn't seem like that's the same as "required to work full time....[with]...limited control over your schedule." All you're losing is your ability to demand $500 an hour to cover an undesirable shift in an undesirable location.
Working for an SDG doesnt limit your ability to work for a CMG and screw them. Thats a win - win.

Also, I cant speak to everyone but pay in an SDG is 50% higher or more. Also, you get to make the rules without asking your corporate overlords what it ok. CMGs are fine as long as you are hip to the game and understand they are stealing a fair bit of the fruit from your labor.

CMGs ave better contracts (usually) and therefore cost patients more.

I would rather charge get paid $300 for a level 5 and keep it all short of expenses than having a CMG get paid $500 for the same visit and I get $200/hr.
 
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I'm afraid that Skynet is already self-aware...

Hospitals employing us is even worse than CMGs. At least with CMGs there is a "buffer" albeit thin of physician management between you and the hospital. Physicians also have some degree of autonomy over how they staff themselves, their practice, and reimbursement. Once you are hospital-employed all this goes out the window, as your new hospital administrator overlords will seek to force you to meet their arbitrary and (clinically) irrelevant metrics.

There may be a time when we look back on our CMG rulers as enlightened and benign.

Totally agree. I don't get why do people keep pushing for this. Compare Kaiser compensation to CMG's... not even close. Plus all those pesky nursing complaints would now really carry weight.
 
If SDGs were so great for docs and hospitals, we'd have a propensity of them which we most certainly do not. Everyone is trying to make money off you. I see no difference in the CMG corporate execs gleaning 40% of my paycheck versus the SDG fat cat partners taking 50% during my "buy in" of 1-3 years. It's all the same to me. Sure, it would be nice to feel a little more invested in the ED contract. However, I really don't want to micromanage the day to day operations and I certainly don't want to be spending my free time partaking in high level negotiations with the hospital. I don't want to be haggling with our coders/billers or ponying up sign on bonuses for new recruits either. Isn't that time I could be spending working in the ED and getting paid?

As an example, I interviewed at a partnership track out west and the guy was very upfront with me about a 2yr sign on at 50% hourly rate and that I would be roughly making what I make now in a CMG after those 2yrs. Don't get me wrong, it was a dream gig. I loved the hospital, location and everyone seemed really nice. However, let's say I give up 50% salary for 2 years and assume I make 100K extra as partner. It's still going to take me 7 years to break even. Who can guarantee the health of a contract 7 years in the future?
 
Totally agree. I don't get why do people keep pushing for this. Compare Kaiser compensation to CMG's... not even close. Plus all those pesky nursing complaints would now really carry weight.

Is that really true? Have friends in various specialties working for kaiser and they seem to do pretty well, especially when you factor in benefits/pension.


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If SDGs were so great for docs and hospitals, we'd have a propensity of them which we most certainly do not. Everyone is trying to make money off you. I see no difference in the CMG corporate execs gleaning 40% of my paycheck versus the SDG fat cat partners taking 50% during my "buy in" of 1-3 years. It's all the same to me. Sure, it would be nice to feel a little more invested in the ED contract. However, I really don't want to micromanage the day to day operations and I certainly don't want to be spending my free time partaking in high level negotiations with the hospital. I don't want to be haggling with our coders/billers or ponying up sign on bonuses for new recruits either. Isn't that time I could be spending working in the ED and getting paid?

As an example, I interviewed at a partnership track out west and the guy was very upfront with me about a 2yr sign on at 50% hourly rate and that I would be roughly making what I make now in a CMG after those 2yrs. Don't get me wrong, it was a dream gig. I loved the hospital, location and everyone seemed really nice. However, let's say I give up 50% salary for 2 years and assume I make 100K extra as partner. It's still going to take me 7 years to break even. Who can guarantee the health of a contract 7 years in the future?
You interviewed with a group that didn't have anything better to offer you.

I took an SDG job with lots to offer. Our anecdotes cancel each other out.
 
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You interviewed with a group that didn't have anything better to offer you.

I took an SDG job with lots to offer. Our anecdotes cancel each other out.
If you are an experience attending, I will take this with some weight. If you are a new grad or recent grad, you will come back in 1 yr and realize that this SDG likely just pulled a fast one on you.

Im not saying CMGs are great or SDGs are bad. Both have their issues, but generally SDGs are not two standard deviation better than a CMG.
 
I think this is very regional dependent.
We're i work in philly/nj/del area. I make more as a pre partner in my sdg than any cmg in the area (within 2 hrs).
Factor in how much I make per pt or rvu and it's even better( bc I saw a lot more pts/hr at other jobs). Meaning some make more $/hr but are seeing 3pt/hr by themselves.
There may be some hospital employee jobs that pay a little better 10%ish.
I think this may be bc we are very saturated with cmgs. Not really sure why there pay is not good. We're talking in 175-maybe 220$/hr range.
 
It doesn't matter. They're in bed together in ink. Call it HCAcare if you want. They share profits and losses.
Agree that it's a horrible combo
I think this is very regional dependent.
We're i work in philly/nj/del area. I make more as a pre partner in my sdg than any cmg in the area (within 2 hrs).
Factor in how much I make per pt or rvu and it's even better( bc I saw a lot more pts/hr at other jobs). Meaning some make more $/hr but are seeing 3pt/hr by themselves.
There may be some hospital employee jobs that pay a little better 10%ish.
I think this may be bc we are very saturated with cmgs. Not really sure why there pay is not good. We're talking in 175-maybe 220$/hr range.
Pay comes down to supply and demand within the parameters of how much the group can bring in.

If there's a glut of doctors then you can jack up profits without losing the ability to recruit. If there's not enough docs you have to spend more of your collections to keep them.

It's important not to dismiss contracted insurance rates when accounting for regional pay differences. You can have the same payor mix at a shop in OK as in TX but due to BC/BS (and their ill) rates the docs in TX are making $50-$75/hr more with the same CMG taking the same percentage cut off the top. That's what people are talking about when they talk about CMG care being more expensive than SDG. Why such a huge variation exists in the first place is another question.
 
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I cannot believe this hasn't been posted or discussed in this forum yet! Huge news!

AAEM

Employees of Texas Emergency Medicine Group Form Labor Union

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) approved on February 29 what may be the first Emergency Medicine labor union in the country. Physician employees of Third Coast Emergency Physicians (TCEP), a medium size contract management company located in Central Texas, voted overwhelmingly to unionize. This decision came after doctors experienced years of frustration over TCEP's refusal to create a more democratic group with open accounting practices and a partnership track.

The union (Seton Third Coast Emergency Physicians Association) is comprised of emergency physicians working at Seton Medical Center and Seton Northwest Hospital in Austin, TX. The two physician owners of the company acknowledged spending over $50,000 in legal fees to obstruct the creation of the union, including filing an appeal to the NLRB. The NLRB's decision and findings can be viewed at www.nlrb.gov under decisions at 330 NLRB No. 117, or contact the AAEM office for a copy.

The employee status that fostered the creation of the union has come relatively recently in the group's history. From the inception of the company in 1988, until the end of 1998, physicians worked under independent contractor status. After becoming employees in 1999, members of the group hired labor attorneys and elected representatives. A treasurer was elected and members of the group voluntarily contributed to a legal fund. When the physician owners of the company refused to meet with the representatives or the attorneys, the course towards unionization was taken.

The union representatives of the physician employees plan to invite the owners of Third Coast Emergency Physicians to begin negotiations soon.
 
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Um. I live in Texas and am part of TCEP*, and this is the first I've heard of it.
*Texas College of Emergency Physicians, not Third Coast, which became ESP.
 
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...probably because this is something that happened 17 years ago. Looked at the case on the NLRB website, dated 2000. How embarrassing. There's no date on this stuff at the AAEM website! OLD NEWS ROCKS!!!
 
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I cannot believe this hasn't been posted or discussed in this forum yet! Huge news!

AAEM

Employees of Texas Emergency Medicine Group Form Labor Union

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) approved on February 29 what may be the first Emergency Medicine labor union in the country. Physician employees of Third Coast Emergency Physicians (TCEP), a medium size contract management company located in Central Texas, voted overwhelmingly to unionize. This decision came after doctors experienced years of frustration over TCEP's refusal to create a more democratic group with open accounting practices and a partnership track.

The union (Seton Third Coast Emergency Physicians Association) is comprised of emergency physicians working at Seton Medical Center and Seton Northwest Hospital in Austin, TX. The two physician owners of the company acknowledged spending over $50,000 in legal fees to obstruct the creation of the union, including filing an appeal to the NLRB. The NLRB's decision and findings can be viewed at www.nlrb.gov under decisions at 330 NLRB No. 117, or contact the AAEM office for a copy.

The employee status that fostered the creation of the union has come relatively recently in the group's history. From the inception of the company in 1988, until the end of 1998, physicians worked under independent contractor status. After becoming employees in 1999, members of the group hired labor attorneys and elected representatives. A treasurer was elected and members of the group voluntarily contributed to a legal fund. When the physician owners of the company refused to meet with the representatives or the attorneys, the course towards unionization was taken.

The union representatives of the physician employees plan to invite the owners of Third Coast Emergency Physicians to begin negotiations soon.
Sadly, things never really changed in that group. It was a very ugly chapter if my sources are to be believed.
 
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