More competitive: AOA from middle tier school or no AOA from upper tier school?

[WildcatMD]

All else being equal, which makes for a more competitive applicant to top academic programs...

An AOA membership from a middle tier school


No AOA member, but from a better school (not top 10, but 30-40 on US New's list (which is a somewhat BS ranking in my personal opinion, but just using it to get the point across about the school))


I ask since it would be harder to get AOA from the better school due to a stronger class on average, but on the other hand, the school itself being considered higher ranking by PD's would count for something to

So what do you think?

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[drpectin]

Some Upper tier schools neither grade nor offer AOA membership.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
AOA is AOA and the school does not matter much. My AOA combined with my USMLE Step I score opened loads of doors and my school's rank was never mentioned at any residency interview. There are just not that many AOA folks out there period.

njbmd

 

[hans19]

Hi there,
AOA is AOA and the school does not matter much. My AOA combined with my USMLE Step I score opened loads of doors and my school's rank was never mentioned at any residency interview. There are just not that many AOA folks out there period.

njbmd

Smart ass!

Agreed. Not all the smartest kids can or want to go to the top tier schools for whatever reasons (family or cost), but no matter which medical school you end up at, the top 15% of students will be brilliant.

 

[fishmonger69]

the difference between AOA and top 25% of a class is not necessarily brilliance, but a host of factors including 1) no life outside the library, 2) good ass-kissing skills during clinicals and 3) willingness to dedicate most free time to studying. not to sound like sour grapes, but i'll take my top 20-25% ranking with only studying max 2-4 hrs/wk as opposed to the top 15% and studying 5-6hrs/day. that's just me though.

to answer the question: AOA is AOA. if you want doors opened, get the AOA.

 

[CSMORR02]

Do the programs care about junior AOA vs. senior AOA, or is it largerly the same?

 

[drpectin]

The difference between a valedictorian and Top 15 students in a class. Negligible difference, but then I'm not a junior AOA. Our school's Junior AOA usually get invited to interview everywhere they apply and have always gotten one of their top 3 choices in the Match.

 

[bigfrank]

the difference between AOA and top 25% of a class is not necessarily brilliance, but a host of factors including 1) no life outside the library, 2) good ass-kissing skills during clinicals and 3) willingness to dedicate most free time to studying. not to sound like sour grapes, but i'll take my top 20-25% ranking with only studying max 2-4 hrs/wk as opposed to the top 15% and studying 5-6hrs/day. that's just me though.

to answer the question: AOA is AOA. if you want doors opened, get the AOA.

Bitterness here.

The answer to the OP question is that it is best to be AOA from a top medical school. After that, just be AOA.

 

[dynx]

the difference between AOA and top 25% of a class is not necessarily brilliance, but a host of factors including 1) no life outside the library, 2) good ass-kissing skills during clinicals and 3) willingness to dedicate most free time to studying. not to sound like sour grapes, but i'll take my top 20-25% ranking with only studying max 2-4 hrs/wk as opposed to the top 15% and studying 5-6hrs/day. that's just me though.

to answer the question: AOA is AOA. if you want doors opened, get the AOA.

This is garbage. The junior AOAs in my school (or the one I know of) is head and shoulders above the rest of the class naturally, not by being a social outcast. I got rejected for junior AOA too....we can at least do rejection with a little dignity can't we?

 

[docofoddi]

I have a similar question to the question posed by this forum:

If all things being the same (step I scores, research, LORs, etc...), why would a student from a top tier medical school be considered more competitive than a student from a middle or bottom tier medical school? If anything, the student from the higher tier medical school, based on reputation of that school accepting more qualified/competitive students, would be expected to be better on paper, and if the credentials are matched by a student from a lower tier medical school then does this mean the student from the lower tier medical school is more qualified/worked harder?
Just some food for thought.

 

[surg]

It's about frame of reference. A top student at a top school theoretically faces "tougher" competition. Whether this is true or not is of course up for debate. Obviously this isn't true for USMLE scores, but for more subjective evals, it may be. At the minimum though, when I look at an LOR I will consider how many students that person has seen. If Dr. Zinner, the chair at Brigham writes a letter saying that this is the best student he has ever interacted with, this carries more weight than if some random community surgeon who rarely gets students writes the same letter. Thus, the known quantity or known quantity by proxy (someone who I trust their judgment thinks you are the best thing since sliced bread) gets a slight bump up. You might think this is unfair and it may be, but I'd say that it's human nature.

 

[fishmonger69]

Bitterness here.

The answer to the OP question is that it is best to be AOA from a top medical school. After that, just be AOA.

Bitterness could only exist if the desire was there in the first place. i can truthfully say AOA was never on my list of things to do as i came into med school wanting to do a primary care field that only required me passing to get a strong residency.

to 'doing rejection with dignity', i'm merely expressing my opinion of what i saw and heard. if you want to disagree, please do so, but don't assume that my comments are made from a sour grapes perspective. while there are a few AOA members clearly head and shoulders above the others, most that i have come across are there based on brute time spent studying.

as i said before, if it's important to you then go for it. if not, don't fret.

 

[thenavysurgeon]

fishmonger,

I totally disagree with the notion that AOA folks are maladjusted geeks that spend hours in the library. Quite the contrary. Smart folks are able to budget their time effeciently enough to have a 'life' outside of med school.

In my own experience, I ****ed more women, party'd much harder and went out more as a med student than i ever did in undergrad.

xTNS

 

[drpectin]

You know, just because you blank it out doesn't make it civil conversation.

 

[bigfrank]

Bitterness could only exist if the desire was there in the first place. i can truthfully say AOA was never on my list of things to do as i came into med school wanting to do a primary care field that only required me passing to get a strong residency.

to 'doing rejection with dignity', i'm merely expressing my opinion of what i saw and heard. if you want to disagree, please do so, but don't assume that my comments are made from a sour grapes perspective. while there are a few AOA members clearly head and shoulders above the others, most that i have come across are there based on brute time spent studying.

as i said before, if it's important to you then go for it. if not, don't fret.

bitterness again.

 

[navysurgeon]

I'm not interested in the 'civility' of this venue.

 

[Dr. V]

Actually at the medical school I attended there were so many that qualified it came down to a class vote and an AOA member vote.

That meant it came down to a popularity contest.

Every one of the ones inducted deserved it, but the others deserved it just as much as the popular ones.

That said AOA is AOA and I didn't feel the name of the school mattered during the interviews unless maybe it was Harvard or something.

As for the intelligent ones working smarter and not longer, well that is the case sometimes and the other end of the spectrum is true as well. I know plenty that were at the top just because of sheer study time and some extremely bright med students that stayed in the middle because they were smart enough to know that's all they needed and exactly how to stay there while having a blast during medical school.

Personally I would rather be in the middle of a GREAT class than at the top of a poor one (not just talking grades here but people as well).

 

[AlexRusso]

Our school's Junior AOA usually get invited to interview everywhere they apply and have always gotten one of their top 3 choices in the Match.

What school's that? I was junior AOA and top 10 in the class with a wonderful USMLE score. I did not get interview invites everywhere I applied nor did I match at one of my top 3. Don't believe the junior AOA hype!

 

[drpectin]

Alex
Bottom line is they are happy where they went. I am not hyping AOA, at all.

Its better to be AOA than not, better to have good grades than not, better to have good LORs than not.

Just because you don't have those things doesn't mean you can't go into surgery. We are all just trying to do the best we can. If your grades warrant getting AOA, put it on your CV. End of story.