More questions about Australian Medical School

[theunraveler]

Hi all,

1) Is there any bank loan available in Australia for PR that allows him/her to study first and pay later? If there is, what is the interest rate like?

2) What happens after getting the MBBS? I am unsure what is the system for Australia, does one go straight into specialist training or is there internship first?

3) Whats up with the comparison with UQ and Caribbean medical schools?

4) Anyone studying or have completed their medical education at UQ?

Thanks yall

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[shan564]

1) The bank loans are much more difficult to get in Australia... most local students only pay about $7-8k/year for med school, so massive student loans aren't really common here. Also, interest rates tend to be higher in Australia. You're better off getting a loan in N.America, especially if you're eligible for US federal loans.

2) There's an internship first, but you work reasonable hours and get paid reasonable money (unlike the US/Canada)

3) I don't think anybody REALLY thinks that UQ is like a Caribbean school. Some of us have expressed concern that some of UQ's recent policies might (MIGHT) hurt their reputation in N.America to the point where program directors see it in the same light as other offshore schools. Still, it's likely that UQ will always be the world-class institution that they are now.

4) There are a few people on the forums from UQ... I'm sure they'll chime in soon enough.

 

[theunraveler]

One more question:

For international students, upon completion of the MBBS degree can they apply for PR straight away and thus qualify for internship? Last I heard that international students are not guaranteed a spot at internship...

 

[Daemos]

One more question:

For international students, upon completion of the MBBS degree can they apply for PR straight away and thus qualify for internship? Last I heard that international students are not guaranteed a spot at internship...

need the internship for PR.

 

[theunraveler]

need the internship for PR.

I c, so international students need internship in order to get PR?

 

[shan564]

Yeah, that's why we have the dilemma.

 

[theunraveler]

Yeah, that's why we have the dilemma.

Couldnt they go into another field first, like for example pharmaceutical companies, teach, research etc then go back to being a clinician when they get PR?

 

[shan564]

Couldnt they go into another field first, like for example pharmaceutical companies, teach, research etc then go back to being a clinician when they get PR?

Yeah, but people want to avoid delaying their internship. That's just a backup plan.

 

[theunraveler]

Yeah, but people want to avoid delaying their internship. That's just a backup plan.

Is it bad to delay internship?

 

[shan564]

Is it bad to delay internship?

Most of us have a lot of loans to pay off. For every year that I delay my internship, I'm tacking on over $20,000 in interest. Also, it's another year before I'm finally a full doctor.

 

[theunraveler]

Most of us have a lot of loans to pay off. For every year that I delay my internship, I'm tacking on over $20,000 in interest. Also, it's another year before I'm finally a full doctor.

But if you work in research, or a pharmaceutical company you will still be drawing a salary each month. Couldn't you use it to pay back your loan?

 

[shan564]

You don't get a great salary as a researcher, especially if you're not a licensed clinician yet. Every year you delay your internship, you're delaying the day when you finally start earning a doctor's income and paying back the loans. Also, I'd like to settle down and start a family at some point, and that'll be hard to do if I'm still doing my postgraduate training when I'm in my mid-30's.

 

[theunraveler]

You don't get a great salary as a researcher, especially if you're not a licensed clinician yet. Every year you delay your internship, you're delaying the day when you finally start earning a doctor's income and paying back the loans. Also, I'd like to settle down and start a family at some point, and that'll be hard to do if I'm still doing my postgraduate training when I'm in my mid-30's.

So as an intern doctor how much can one expect to earn in comparison with a fresh grad MBBS working as a teacher, researcher or whatever jobs...

 

[jaketheory]

Couldnt they go into another field first, like for example pharmaceutical companies, teach, research etc then go back to being a clinician when they get PR?

ive mentioned this in previous threads. it could be difficult to get PR based on any occupation immediately upon finishing your med degree. first, you arent eligible for medical practinior occupation until finishing intership. second, you must have 12 months experience within the last 24 months in your nominated occupation working a minimum of 20 hours per week. thus, you'd have to ensure you worked in that occupation during med school for this to work.

 

[jaketheory]

Is it bad to delay internship?

i'd guess you cannot continue any type of clinical experiences if you arent pursuing an internship. a year outside clinical experience and you'd likely forget a lot. i work in a lab in which a GI fellow recently started working. he has required clinical obligations once a week. in addition to this he voluntarily attends lectures regularly because he is concerned of losing clinical skills from only being in the clinic once a week.

 

[jaketheory]

Hi all,

1) Is there any bank loan available in Australia for PR that allows him/her to study first and pay later? If there is, what is the interest rate like?

2) What happens after getting the MBBS? I am unsure what is the system for Australia, does one go straight into specialist training or is there internship first?

3) Whats up with the comparison with UQ and Caribbean medical schools?

4) Anyone studying or have completed their medical education at UQ?

Thanks yall

bank loans are few and far between in aus. in general the interest rate are ridiculously high compared to stafford loans. it is also quite hard to find banks that will lend you a decent amount of money. 5k AUD won't last you very long. the most ive seen available in a loan is 20k. many also requre you to start repayments immediately or within 5 years. others require you to be either in your penultimate year or final year just to qualify.

unfortunately only 3 schools offer stafford loans and UQ is one of them (i think i'd rather deal with private loans than attend UQ at this pointm Flinders ranks on GPA, and USyd may start ranking on GPA next year).

 

[shan564]

So as an intern doctor how much can one expect to earn in comparison with a fresh grad MBBS working as a teacher, researcher or whatever jobs...

It's not about the intern vs. researcher salary - those are probably similar. The point is that you have to do an internship either way. So if you spend a year or two doing research first, you're delaying the day when you finally become a full doctor with good work hours, a decent salary, and most importantly, free time to start a family.

I still plan on going into research - after I have my loans paid off.

 

[jaketheory]

It's not about the intern vs. researcher salary - those are probably similar. The point is that you have to do an internship either way. So if you spend a year or two doing research first, you're delaying the day when you finally become a full doctor with good work hours, a decent salary, and most importantly, free time to start a family.

I still plan on going into research - after I have my loans paid off.

i dont get this. if you were adamant about research why would you just not get a phd in the states debt free? what are your ultimate goals? i;m interested in research as well but this question bugs me.

 

[Transition]

i dont get this. if you were adamant about research why would you just not get a phd in the states debt free? what are your ultimate goals? i;m interested in research as well but this question bugs me.

Depends on the type of research.

In order to break into pure science research, you need to truly be competitive. Jobs for professorships nowadays are few and far between and they require at the least 1-2 post docs (leaning towards 2) with a pretty stellar publication history. Good luck breaking into this. It's incredibly difficult. I'm pretty put off by pure research. Too much hardship, sweat, blood and tears for little gain. The typical professorship entails write grants, recruit grad students, write grants, do experiments, write grants, teach, write grants, wallow in rejected said grants with 13% success rate in the US and 20% in Canada, revise grants, beg for welfare, get 2nd job, beg for tenure, maybe get tenure, never have job security until then, write grants, die homeless.

On the other side, clinical research is not so difficult if you have an MD. Typically, an MD can practice clinical research without the hoops to jump through re the preceding. Of course, it depends on the type of research you want to do, but at the least, the option is there.

 

[jaketheory]

Depends on the type of research.

In order to break into pure science research, you need to truly be competitive. Jobs for professorships nowadays are few and far between and they require at the least 1-2 post docs (leaning towards 2) with a pretty stellar publication history. Good luck breaking into this. It's incredibly difficult. I'm pretty put off by pure research. Too much hardship, sweat, blood and tears for little gain. The typical professorship entails write grants, recruit grad students, write grants, do experiments, write grants, teach, write grants, wallow in rejected said grants with 13% success rate in the US and 20% in Canada, revise grants, beg for welfare, get 2nd job, beg for tenure, maybe get tenure, never have job security until then, write grants, die homeless.

On the other side, clinical research is not so difficult if you have an MD. Typically, an MD can practice clinical research without the hoops to jump through re the preceding. Of course, it depends on the type of research you want to do, but at the least, the option is there.

i will agree with you on the BS that is doing research. however, an MD is not a research degree and as such you aren't well prepared to write competitive grant proposals. the majority of successful grants are going to MD/PhD's; at least the highest proportion of successful candidates have both degrees. i feel that if you are serious about research and you recognize it early on, you should do the PhD.

also, most research is done in colloboration these days anyway so an MD certainly is not necessary to do clinical research. but having an MD does not make gaining grants any less arduous.

 

[shan564]

i will agree with you on the BS that is doing research. however, an MD is not a research degree and as such you aren't well prepared to write competitive grant proposals. the majority of successful grants are going to MD/PhD's; at least the highest proportion of successful candidates have both degrees. i feel that if you are serious about research and you recognize it early on, you should do the PhD.

also, most research is done in colloboration these days anyway so an MD certainly is not necessary to do clinical research. but having an MD does not make gaining grants any less arduous.

Academia is a complicated field. Without writing an entire essay, let's just say that I have a somewhat specific research focus in mind, and that focus requires an MD (which I learned after spending two years working for a researcher in the field who didn't have an MD - it was a huge hindrance for him). I actually started working on a PhD, but I quit after a semester because I realized that it doesn't align with my goals.

I'd like to do a PhD part-time someday, but it's just an abstraction at the moment.

Of course, this is just a personal decision. If you just want to do "research" as an abstraction, I agree that you should do a PhD. It'd take forever to explain the details, but let's just say that my case is a bit different and I've taken a lot of time to consider the options/ramifications.

Anyway... to go back to the original point, yes it's an option. You can take some time off and work in another field while you try to get PR, but you have to consider that it'll make it harder to break back into clinical practice.

 

[jaketheory]

Academia is a complicated field. Without writing an entire essay, let's just say that I have a somewhat specific research focus in mind, and that focus requires an MD (which I learned after spending two years working for a researcher in the field who didn't have an MD - it was a huge hindrance for him). I actually started working on a PhD, but I quit after a semester because I realized that it doesn't align with my goals.

I'd like to do a PhD part-time someday, but it's just an abstraction at the moment.

Of course, this is just a personal decision. If you just want to do "research" as an abstraction, I agree that you should do a PhD. It'd take forever to explain the details, but let's just say that my case is a bit different and I've taken a lot of time to consider the options/ramifications.

Anyway... to go back to the original point, yes it's an option. You can take some time off and work in another field while you try to get PR, but you have to consider that it'll make it harder to break back into clinical practice.

thats fine but one point of mine was that it is not necesarry to have an MD to do clincal research. you can colloborate with an MD. virtually all research is done in colloboration these days anyway.

 

[Transition]

i will agree with you on the BS that is doing research. however, an MD is not a research degree and as such you aren't well prepared to write competitive grant proposals. the majority of successful grants are going to MD/PhD's; at least the highest proportion of successful candidates have both degrees. i feel that if you are serious about research and you recognize it early on, you should do the PhD.

also, most research is done in colloboration these days anyway so an MD certainly is not necessary to do clinical research. but having an MD does not make gaining grants any less arduous.

Since when does a PhD or post-doc train you to write grant proposals? I personally feel that the attributes required to write a successful grant are inherent in a successful clinician. The ability to convey one's research interests and ideas in a cogent manner are incredibly valuable assets that are not at all the point of a PhD. The point of a PhD is to get your foot in the door with respect to research and, moreso than that, to make contacts and a name for yourself in the field you're interested in. So, having a PhD, just as an MD, does not make getting grants any less arduous. In fact, being a clinician with an MD may make getting funding that much easier because of the social status attributed to MDs. This is anecdotal, of course, as I've seen this happen only at my own University. I have not studied at other Universities.

Also, I have yet to see much significant collaboration in the basic sciences. Probably moreso in the clinical aspects of research (which is much easier to break into if you hold an MD). This is after 2 years into my MSc and having been to numerous conferences. Collaboration is not nearly as common as one may think.

 

[shan564]

thats fine but one point of mine was that it is not necesarry to have an MD to do clincal research. you can colloborate with an MD. virtually all research is done in colloboration these days anyway.

Collaborating with MDs is much more difficult than you may think. Most of them place researchers as a very low priority in their daily life, so it makes life difficult. I tried to do it for two years, and even though I was regularly collaborating with a lot of the doctors, none of them even recognized my name/face at the end of the two years (they knew my boss, but I was just the lab guy; they had nothing to gain by knowing my name, even though I was coming up with all of the ideas and putting their names on my papers).

Still, I agree that it's possible... but that's not what we were talking about. You were just asking me why I'd do an MD if I want to go into research. The answer is that "research" shouldn't be considered an abstraction, like most people often think it is. "Research" is a very broad field, and there are a multitude of things that you can "research". Different fields require different backgrounds - but if a person is truly interested in "research", then they don't just "do a PhD" or "do an MD"... they look at the field that interests them, they look at the people who are successful in that field, and they gear their CV to make themselves successful in that field. Everybody has different interests, so they get the training to serve those interests. When I say I want to go into research, I don't mean that I want to sit in a lab and pipette samples... it means that I want to make a positive contribution to the body of scientific knowledge, which you may do with a PhD in biochem, or maybe with a PhD in economics, or maybe with an MD, or maybe with a PharmD, or whatever.

This thread isn't even about that; we only digressed because we were talking about possible ways to fill in the gap between med school and internship.

 

[theunraveler]

Can someone tell me what is the difference if you graduate in America or Australia...if any?

 

[shan564]

Some American residencies require that you graduate in the US, so you have an advantage there. Still, you can get into most residency programs as an Australian grad. Also, it helps to have American rec letters, which is much easier if you did at least a couple of clinical rotations in the US... you can still do that from Australia, but you'll have more opportunities in the US.

 

[theunraveler]

A few more questions...

1) What do you plan to specialize in after you graduate with a MBBS degree and why?

2) Which specialty has the most stable working hours?

 

[shan564]

1) I'd like to go into nuclear medicine just because I like nuclear physics... I enjoy looking at everything on the most basic (i.e. subatomic) level. Nuc med is really hard to get into, so my backup is pathology because we still get to look at things on a basic level. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at internal medicine (the universal backup plan), or maybe psychiatry.

2) Probably dermatology; that's why dermatology is so hard to get into (that and the money), even though it's not as interesting and you don't really get to save lives often. Radiology also has good hours, and they're bound to get better over the years as it becomes easier to do your job from a distance (thanks to digital imaging). Both of those fields require very high USMLE scores. There are also some other fields where the hours aren't too bad (psychiatry, rheumatology, maybe some others) because you usually just see patients in an office, but you might occasionally have to do some shifts at a hospital in those specialties.

Your personal interests will develop as you get through med school. I'd strongly advise against deciding early; if you do, then you might end up falling in love with a field that you're not particularly good at.

 

[theunraveler]

1) I'd like to go into nuclear medicine just because I like nuclear physics... I enjoy looking at everything on the most basic (i.e. subatomic) level. Nuc med is really hard to get into, so my backup is pathology because we still get to look at things on a basic level. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at internal medicine (the universal backup plan), or maybe psychiatry.

2) Probably dermatology; that's why dermatology is so hard to get into (that and the money), even though it's not as interesting and you don't really get to save lives often. Radiology also has good hours, and they're bound to get better over the years as it becomes easier to do your job from a distance (thanks to digital imaging). Both of those fields require very high USMLE scores. There are also some other fields where the hours aren't too bad (psychiatry, rheumatology, maybe some others) because you usually just see patients in an office, but you might occasionally have to do some shifts at a hospital in those specialties.

Your personal interests will develop as you get through med school. I'd strongly advise against deciding early; if you do, then you might end up falling in love with a field that you're not particularly good at.

I was told that pathology and emergency medicine has the most stable working hours as ER doctors work in shifts, any truth in that?

 

[shan564]

Pathology might be somewhat stable if you work in private practice, but a lot of pathologists have to cover nights because the labs are open 24 hours. ER doctors work in shifts, but the shifts are anything but regular; also, you spend a lot of hours on call.

The most "stable" hours are in the specialties where you just go to an office every day and work 8 to 5 (or whatever schedule you choose).

 

[theunraveler]

The most "stable" hours are in the specialties where you just go to an office every day and work 8 to 5 (or whatever schedule you choose).

Do they even exist? I mean besides those specialties you mentioned

 

[jaketheory]

Since when does a PhD or post-doc train you to write grant proposals? I personally feel that the attributes required to write a successful grant are inherent in a successful clinician. The ability to convey one's research interests and ideas in a cogent manner are incredibly valuable assets that are not at all the point of a PhD. The point of a PhD is to get your foot in the door with respect to research and, moreso than that, to make contacts and a name for yourself in the field you're interested in. So, having a PhD, just as an MD, does not make getting grants any less arduous. In fact, being a clinician with an MD may make getting funding that much easier because of the social status attributed to MDs. This is anecdotal, of course, as I've seen this happen only at my own University. I have not studied at other Universities.

Also, I have yet to see much significant collaboration in the basic sciences. Probably moreso in the clinical aspects of research (which is much easier to break into if you hold an MD). This is after 2 years into my MSc and having been to numerous conferences. Collaboration is not nearly as common as one may think.

a phd degree is a research degree. as such, virtually all US phd programs will have some sort of tutorials on how to write grants. post doc are usually encouraged to pursue similar oppurtunities. as their career goals will require them to write grants it would be silly to pass up such an oppurtunity. the md is not a research degree and i'd guess oppurtunities to take such classes as an elective would be very low, but i've certainly not researched it.

social status doesnt influence the NIH grant submission reviewers.

i work for an MD and all his papers coming out have PhD (non MD) coauthors.

 

[redshifteffect]

As a Pathologist in Oz I can tell you that there is very little after hours work. Perhaps once in 6 months you'll have the occasional frozen specimen, and even then the registrar will usually be the first line of call. As a consultant in Oz your life is pretty relaxed.

You get paid for "being on call" of course if you're working for a hospital but because there is such little call back most consultants just take 6 week chunks of on call.

 

[theunraveler]

Another question

1) If you have below 5.0 GPA, is there any other way to get into medical school?

2) In vet science, it is possible to get a GPA of below 5.0 and still get first class honours because the honours is part of the 5 years study, we just need to score well for certain subjects to get honours. So which medical school have an emphasis on honours degree?

 

[jaketheory]

Another question

If you have below 5.0 GPA, is there any other way to get into medical school?

there is always a way, but it will likely entail bringing up your gpa. examples:

1) do a 2nd bachelors degree. every school will look at your most recent bachelors if you have more than one.

2) UQ uses your most recent key degree. do a one-year masters by coursework with a 5.0 gpa or higher and you meet their gpa hurdle.

3) at USyd if you do a research degree (masters or PhD) you will be deemed to have met the GPA requirement.

4) UWA will use your most recent 3 years of coursework to calculate gpa including tertiary units you've completed after completing your degree even if you dont complete another degree. the downside to this is that if after 3 years you have less than a 5.0 it will probably take a lot of effort (and a fair amount of time) to bring it up to a gpa that is competitive at UWA.

my gpa at graduation was a 3.0/4.0 but i hadnt done any US med school science prereqs. I did 2 years of that. Because I earned a 4.0 the last year of my degree and a 4.0 through my 2 years of postbac science coursework, i'd have a 4.0/4.0 if applying to UWA (note the grad entry stream doesnt currently accept internationals - I have PR). but then again, UWA takes an extra year to finish (is a 4.5 year course and 1st year commences later than other courses). i could also probably finish a 2nd bachelors in one additional year given my postbac coursework and then apply to any school with a 4.0 but that would mean sacrificing a years income and my savings, without which i dont think i could afford a med school that doesnt offer stafford loans.

 

[theunraveler]

there is always a way, but it will likely entail bringing up your gpa. examples:

1) do a 2nd bachelors degree. every school will look at your most recent bachelors if you have more than one.

2) UQ uses your most recent key degree. do a one-year masters by coursework with a 5.0 gpa or higher and you meet their gpa hurdle.

3) at USyd if you do a research degree (masters or PhD) you will be deemed to have met the GPA requirement.

4) UWA will use your most recent 3 years of coursework to calculate gpa including tertiary units you've completed after completing your degree even if you dont complete another degree. the downside to this is that if after 3 years you have less than a 5.0 it will probably take a lot of effort (and a fair amount of time) to bring it up to a gpa that is competitive at UWA.

my gpa at graduation was a 3.0/4.0 but i hadnt done any US med school science prereqs. I did 2 years of that. Because I earned a 4.0 the last year of my degree and a 4.0 through my 2 years of postbac science coursework, i'd have a 4.0/4.0 if applying to UWA (note the grad entry stream doesnt currently accept internationals - I have PR). but then again, UWA takes an extra year to finish (is a 4.5 year course and 1st year commences later than other courses). i could also probably finish a 2nd bachelors in one additional year given my postbac coursework and then apply to any school with a 4.0 but that would mean sacrificing a years income and my savings, without which i dont think i could afford a med school that doesnt offer stafford loans.

Hi

So what happens if I have a low GPA but have honours?

 

[jaketheory]

Hi

So what happens if I have a low GPA but have honours?

honours would be considered the final year of last 3 years of undergraduate. how to calculate your undergrad gpa, included honours years, is explained in the ACER GAMSA guide.

if you have a gpa below 5 i think it is unlikely you'd get into an honours course. i hear they are quite competitive, but i'm sure it depends on the uni.

you are a vet student looking into doing medicine? or are you vet science (rather than vet med)? where do you study?

 

[theunraveler]

honours would be considered the final year of last 3 years of undergraduate. how to calculate your undergrad gpa, included honours years, is explained in the ACER GAMSA guide.

if you have a gpa below 5 i think it is unlikely you'd get into an honours course. i hear they are quite competitive, but i'm sure it depends on the uni.

you are a vet student looking into doing medicine? or are you vet science (rather than vet med)? where do you study?

I am at UQ studying vet science. In Australia vet science is vet medicine, it is 5 years long. I am unsure about the other vet schools here but at UQ, you can get honours even if your overall GPA is low (<5). The honours is dependent on certain subjects and if you do well in those subjects you get honours. Whether is it first honours, 2 or 2A honours depends on how well you score on those selected subjects.

 

[jaketheory]

I am at UQ studying vet science. In Australia vet science is vet medicine, it is 5 years long. I am unsure about the other vet schools here but at UQ, you can get honours even if your overall GPA is low (<5). The honours is dependent on certain subjects and if you do well in those subjects you get honours. Whether is it first honours, 2 or 2A honours depends on how well you score on those selected subjects.

i think most med schools dont use on course honours, rather they use the additional year of undergrad research. i think there is one med school that states that if you have on course honours you can use whichever gpa calc methods works out best, but for the others you'd have to calculate as per usual without honours.

why go into medicine after vet med? what year are you in vet med?

 

[theunraveler]

i think most med schools dont use on course honours, rather they use the additional year of undergrad research. i think there is one med school that states that if you have on course honours you can use whichever gpa calc methods works out best, but for the others you'd have to calculate as per usual without honours.

Which medical school is that?

why go into medicine after vet med? what year are you in vet med?

I'm in 3rd year. I would like to do medicine due to personal philosophical reasons. I believe that I should not limit my self to treating animals but should extend aid to my fellow man. Since I am gonna live only once, I should make it the best one ever. In fact I know of 3 other qualified veterinarians who are also human physicians and we share the same ideals.

 

[jaketheory]

Which medical school is that?


I'm in 3rd year. I would like to do medicine due to personal philosophical reasons. I believe that I should not limit my self to treating animals but should extend aid to my fellow man. Since I am gonna live only once, I should make it the best one ever. In fact I know of 3 other qualified veterinarians who are also human physicians and we share the same ideals.

i find this pretty interesting. i've never heard of someone being a vet and a physician/surgeon. so you would practice both? it seems very unlikely that someone would practice both professionally.

i suggest in the future you search for info before inquiring on here. a lot of info is easily accessible on the internet. i spent years of reading on the internet before i even joined SDN. but anyway, according to the ACER GAMSAT guide, the school i was refferring to which will calculate gpa using whichever method yields the hghest for those with on course honours is UQ.

page 28 og the guide:

"The GPA for Bachelor degrees with ‘on-course Honours’
(typically 4- or 5-year degrees) may be calculated using
whichever method gives the highest result. That is, either the
converted coursework GPA calculation based on the subject
results, or from the Honours category".

it appears from this that as long as you on-course honours is considered at least 2b (which the acer guide equates to a 5.0 gpa), then youd be eligible at UQ. but id recommend contacting UQ.