More things I greatly dislike about third year

[deleted128562]

Call me Debbie Downer, but I need to vent some more. I'm tired and ready for third year to be over. Don't get me wrong, I've had some great experiences, but like most people I tend to be more vocal about the negative stuff.... plus it's nice to blow off steam.

1) Projects. As if being at my site 80 hours a week isn't enough, I get loaded down with papers to write and feelings to share. I'm not talking about the useful stuff like researching a subject and presenting it to my team. I'm talking about the busywork that actually impedes on my learning, because the time I spend on it is time I don't spend reading or doing some other useful activity. How educated people come up with these assignments and think they are worthwhile is beyond me.

2) People who act like scut work should excite me. Look, I get that some degree of scutwork comes with being on a team. Everyone has to share the load. But don't come to me and go, "Hey Mr. Hat, would you like to have the chance to take this blood to the lab?" while acting all excited about how awesome this is and what an honor it will be for me.

3) People who don't get I'm a third year. This goes both ways. I don't need you to tell me that the heart has four chambers, but on the other hand you shouldn't get pissed at me when I don't know every relevent factoid about your sub-sub-subspecialty.

4) Having to ask if I can take a bathroom break like I did when I was in first grade.


Feel free to add your own.

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[crystalgreen]

i absolutely hated everything about third year and medschool in general except when im with my good friends and boyfriend. medschool sux, third year sucked!! i guess i just think that most medstudents are pretty uncool b/c they tend to be way too competitive and just mean! of course not everyone is like that but i would say 85 percent are. let me just tell you that its really hard to be happy or enjoy third year when you are around ppl like that. everyone in medschool is sooo type A! its really hard to chill out around them. i guess i am the typical type b who just totally will never fit in! lol

 

[officedepot]

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[crystalgreen]

i feel your pain. im going into ophtho (4th year now and matched!) and i actually had a doctor blatantly say that my field is boring after i told her im doing ophtho...how funny right? what kind of idiot does that? radiology is frickin awesome, i did a rotation 4th year in radio and not only do you work with the most laid-back ppl in medicine, the lifestyle and pay are unbeatable

 

[armybound]

I also dislike pretending to be interested in something I really don't like (e.g. obgyn).

I refuse to pretend. I can't stand hearing students who will tell me exactly what they're interested in but will always give residents and attendings the "I'm not sure yet, there's a lot of stuff that interests me" routine.

I hate how pissy residents can be when they find out you're not interested in their specialty. Seems to come mainly from medicine and peds folks when they find out you want to do surgery or some other kind of specialty.

 

[crystalgreen]

there is nothing wrong with not telling ppl what you want to do yet to avoid being judged cuz third year is hard enough n you should try to minimize unpleasantness. i actually had a surgery resident get pissy at me too when she realized i wasnt into general surg....i think its kind of uncool and reminds me of bullies. anytime third year gets hard, just remember that fourth year will be so wonderful! after the interviews you just dont care about anything anymore!

 

[normtheniner]

i absolutely hated everything about third year and medschool in general except when im with my good friends and boyfriend. medschool sux, third year sucked!! i guess i just think that most medstudents are pretty uncool b/c they tend to be way too competitive and just mean! of course not everyone is like that but i would say 85 percent are. let me just tell you that its really hard to be happy or enjoy third year when you are around ppl like that. everyone in medschool is sooo type A! its really hard to chill out around them. i guess i am the typical type b who just totally will never fit in! lol

I'm about 8 weeks away from the end of first year, but I totally understand what you're saying. Some people's work ethic at my school makes me feel like if I'm not studying every waking second, I'm being lazy. Don't get me wrong, I love my school, but I'm just ready for May to get here. I need a few months around non-med students to clear my head.

 

[dd128]

Third year blows...fourth year makes up for it a bit...except when you get a rare rotation where you still need to play medical student and really don't give a tiny rats *****!

 

[LossForWords]

I refuse to pretend. I can't stand hearing students who will tell me exactly what they're interested in but will always give residents and attendings the "I'm not sure yet, there's a lot of stuff that interests me" routine.

I hate how pissy residents can be when they find out you're not interested in their specialty. Seems to come mainly from medicine and peds folks when they find out you want to do surgery or some other kind of specialty.

I loved my OB/Gyn rotation because the whole department seemed to be aware that ~95% of the students weren't going to do OB/Gyn. During orientation they even said, "We had 6 students match into OB/Gyn last year out of the whole class, so we get it. This isn't for everyone. But we do expect you to be engaged nonetheless and approach this as a professional learning something that may actually be useful to you in some dire situation."

I wish every department/sub-specialty came in with that same mentality.

 

[armybound]

I loved my OB/Gyn rotation because the whole department seemed to be aware that ~95% of the students weren't going to do OB/Gyn. During orientation they even said, "We had 6 students match into OB/Gyn last year out of the whole class, so we get it. This isn't for everyone. But we do expect you to be engaged nonetheless and approach this as a professional learning something that may actually be useful to you in some dire situation."

I wish every department/sub-specialty came in with that same mentality.

I think that's the way to do it. I mean, I don't want to be an OB/gyn, but I appreciate that the knowledge gained on the rotation will still be useful to me as a physician. Same with medicine, peds, family, etc. Instead of getting pissy, why not structure the rotation around what a non-(insert specialty here) should take away from a rotation? Teach me some basics that will help me interact with you in the future.

I guess what frustrates me the most is that I never once compromised patient care because I wasn't interested in their specialty. I worked just as hard as I did for the fields I loved, I just didn't BS them to their face and act like it was even a remote possibility I'd enter their field. So if I did my job, did it well, was part of the team, etc but don't want to join your field, why give me a hard time about it?

 

[LossForWords]

I think that's the way to do it. I mean, I don't want to be an OB/gyn, but I appreciate that the knowledge gained on the rotation will still be useful to me as a physician. Same with medicine, peds, family, etc. Instead of getting pissy, why not structure the rotation around what a non-(insert specialty here) should take away from a rotation? Teach me some basics that will help me interact with you in the future.

I guess what frustrates me the most is that I never once compromised patient care because I wasn't interested in their specialty. I worked just as hard as I did for the fields I loved, I just didn't BS them to their face and act like it was even a remote possibility I'd enter their field. So if I did my job, did it well, was part of the team, etc but don't want to join your field, why give me a hard time about it?

I get that it can kinda hurt when some piss ant med student says what you've dedicated years post-med school isn't right for them. I understand that knee-jerk reaction. The important thing is to be professional/logical about it and just try to teach something without having a chip on your shoulder. Not everyone wants to do that though, and I think everyone suffers because of it.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I refuse to pretend. I can't stand hearing students who will tell me exactly what they're interested in but will always give residents and attendings the "I'm not sure yet, there's a lot of stuff that interests me" routine.

Agree. As I've said many times before, I'm not willing to trade being genuine for a grade. That's just stupid, and I feel bad for those of you who act otherwise. If someone is going to grade you down because you don't like what they do, screw them.

I hate how pissy residents can be when they find out you're not interested in their specialty. Seems to come mainly from medicine and peds folks when they find out you want to do surgery or some other kind of specialty.

I definitely had that experience in peds. The sheer absurdity of the moment burned the experience into my brain. We had a young, extremely peppy attending come in and introduce herself. She asked what we wanted to do, and when I told her I was interested in anesthesia, she instantly went from exuberant to pouty and maybe even a little confused and said, "Oh...well...you won't see much that has to do with that here..." and changed the subject.

My medicine teams, on the other hand, were exceptionally supportive. When available, they gave me most of the heart, lung, liver, and renal patients so I could at least do something somewhat relevant.

 

[ArcGurren]

I refuse to pretend. I can't stand hearing students who will tell me exactly what they're interested in but will always give residents and attendings the "I'm not sure yet, there's a lot of stuff that interests me" routine.

I hate how pissy residents can be when they find out you're not interested in their specialty. Seems to come mainly from medicine and peds folks when they find out you want to do surgery or some other kind of specialty.

I've actually never encountered people getting pissy or annoyed in medicine or peds when people show interest in other specialties. They might poke fun at you, but often just in good fun. On the other hand, I had a program director in General Surgery who was doing our eval grading blatantly tell me that he didn't feel the need to bump my grade into the Honors range because "it's only important for people who want to go into surgery" (well,**** that guy because I got an Honors anyway).

 

[Phyozo]

I've actually never encountered people getting pissy or annoyed in medicine or peds when people show interest in other specialties. They might poke fun at you, but often just in good fun. On the other hand, I had a program director in General Surgery who was doing our eval grading blatantly tell me that he didn't feel the need to bump my grade into the Honors range because "it's only important for people who want to go into surgery" (well,**** that guy because I got an Honors anyway).

Now that you're done with surgery, you should take a printout of your eval, find that surgeon, and smash that eval into his face

 

[link2swim06]

other doctors and even pas thinking and saying with confidence they can read radiology films better than the radiologist when i see them looking at a series and then ask what the radiologist read was. Bugs me to no end. Oh and then add to that the fact that when i tell them i want to do radiology they try and convince to do something else.

I also dislike pretending to be interested in something i really don't like (e.g. Obgyn).

+1

Also to add....don't you hate when your attending or resident are just plan wrong about some basic science factoid they say. I play smart and shut up...but dont tell me some basic science factoid that breaks the rules of addition, physics, or common logic (i.e. sorry the accessory nerve is not cranial nerve 10 and no a second year student is not 2 years behind an intern...etc).

 

[BabyKangaroo]

I refuse to pretend. I can't stand hearing students who will tell me exactly what they're interested in but will always give residents and attendings the "I'm not sure yet, there's a lot of stuff that interests me" routine.

I hate how pissy residents can be when they find out you're not interested in their specialty. Seems to come mainly from medicine and peds folks when they find out you want to do surgery or some other kind of specialty.

I used to be one of those students who would know, then pretend not to in order to gain favor. I felt like I needed to take a shower after I would say crap like that. Fortunately, I changed my attitude and am now very secure about what I want to do, and I tell my preceptors if they ask (which they always do). I realized that even an orthopedics-bound student doing say, psychiatry, can easily find relatable knowledge between the two specialties (e.g. Doing surgeries on psychiatric subset of patients, managing them, common orthopedic problems in psych patients and how treatment differs etc. etc.). Then just show that you are interested how their specialty will apply to yours, and work hard. Probably preaching to the choir in the minds of many here.

 

[Phyozo]

+1

Also to add....don't you hate when your attending or resident are just plan wrong about some basic science factoid they say. I play smart and shut up...but dont tell me some basic science factoid that breaks the rules of addition, physics, or common logic (i.e. sorry the accessory nerve is not cranial nerve 10 and no a second year student is not 2 years behind an intern...etc).

I corrected an attending once (ok, maybe a few times), and got marked down on my evaluation as not being a team player. I don't understand why people have such fragile egos...if you're wrong, you're wrong...doesn't matter if you're the chair of medicine or a 2nd grader

 

[link2swim06]

I corrected an attending once (ok, maybe a few times), and got marked down on my evaluation as not being a team player. I don't understand why people have such fragile egos...if you're wrong, you're wrong...doesn't matter if you're the chair of medicine or a 2nd grader

Yep...I would never question a clinical decision from an attending as a med student. But I think the 2 years of basic science studying is a little fresher in my head than theirs...that is the irritating part..but whatever, jump through the hoops right?

 

[235009]

Yep...I would never question a clinical decision from an attending as a med student. But I think the 2 years of basic science studying is a little fresher in my head than theirs...that is the irritating part..but whatever, jump through the hoops right?

on several occasions i've had an attending look to the med students on the team and ask a "background question" (http://www.med.yale.edu/library/nursing/education/clinquest.html) because they genuinely did not know the answer and not as a pimping question. if the attending is not the type to come out and admit the shortcomings in their knowledge of those background questions then you should never correct them. It's just stupid. It's like picking a fight at a bar with a guy who's twice your size. You might be justified but it won't end well for you.

 

[da8s0859q]

It's like picking a fight at a bar with a guy who's twice your size. You might be justified but it won't end well for you.

This. Pick and choose your battles, brotha.

Third year has not been my favorite by any means. I've liked some rotations (internal medicine, in retrospect), was miserable on others (surgery), surprised by others (OB/gyn), but the best thing about M3 is that I'm two rotations shy of being done with it.

 

[turkeyjerky]

on several occasions i've had an attending look to the med students on the team and ask a "background question" (http://www.med.yale.edu/library/nursing/education/clinquest.html) because they genuinely did not know the answer and not as a pimping question. if the attending is not the type to come out and admit the shortcomings in their knowledge of those background questions then you should never correct them. It's just stupid. It's like picking a fight at a bar with a guy who's twice your size. You might be justified but it won't end well for you.

It's always so uncomfortable when you're working w/ someone, be it staff or a resident, who's going about working up a patient outside of their comfort level completely wrong. I usually either play dumb, if it's not a big deal, or say something like "when I was on {insert specialty] they would always do so-and-so" or "do you think there's any utility in getting a [whatever test]."

 

[235009]

It's always so uncomfortable when you're working w/ someone, be it staff or a resident, who's going about working up a patient outside of their comfort level completely wrong. I usually either play dumb, if it's not a big deal, or say something like "when I was on {insert specialty] they would always do so-and-so" or "do you think there's any utility in getting a [whatever test]."

i like the latter more. as long as you are phrasing it as a question you get points for intellectual curiosity and for being right without seeming like you are correcting someone.

 

[neusu]

other doctors and even PAs thinking and saying with confidence they can read radiology films better than the radiologist when I see them looking at a series and then ask what the radiologist read was.

Depends on the specialty and hospital. Many places the residents do the read and attendings "finalize" the read. Regardless, I have probably looked at more head CT/MRIs than your average general or subspecialty other than neuro radiologist. Similarly, they often lack context of the examination and state observations. Sure the chest looks clear and cardiac silhouette normal, is the shunt tubing fractured?

I hated third year because if you didn't know what you wanted to do you seemed like a drifter. If you knew what you wanted to do and it was not their specialty you were a lost soul or *******.

Also, nurses somehow managed to maneuver themselves to being at or above third year medical students in the hospital pecking order. As a resident, I ask for bed x the chart and its mine. As a medical student, I politely ask for Mr. so-and-so's chart because I need to present his vitals to the team and I get a, "I'm charting here, you can have it when I'm done." Show up earlier the next day, they see you coming and grab the chart. Short white coat = annoying third year, wtf

 

[link2swim06]

Depends on the specialty and hospital. Many places the residents do the read and attendings "finalize" the read. Regardless, I have probably looked at more head CT/MRIs than your average general or subspecialty other than neuro radiologist. Similarly, they often lack context of the examination and state observations. Sure the chest looks clear and cardiac silhouette normal, is the shunt tubing fractured?

I hated third year because if you didn't know what you wanted to do you seemed like a drifter. If you knew what you wanted to do and it was not their specialty you were a lost soul or *******.

Also, nurses somehow managed to maneuver themselves to being at or above third year medical students in the hospital pecking order. As a resident, I ask for bed x the chart and its mine. As a medical student, I politely ask for Mr. so-and-so's chart because I need to present his vitals to the team and I get a, "I'm charting here, you can have it when I'm done." Show up earlier the next day, they see you coming and grab the chart. Short white coat = annoying third year, wtf

How have you looked at more imaging than any radiologist? At most hospitals they are getting head CTs from half a dozen services likely across the entire hospital.

Not saying you haven't looked at alot of head CTs assuming you are neurosurgery...I am sure you have...but lets take one service, how many people get a head CT in the ED per hour...all those are going to get sent to radiology. Then add in every other service + outpatient imaging...etc. I think your average radiology is going to see much more imaging than any other non-radiology specialty just because that is is 90% of their job.

In 2004, the average studies read per radiologist was 20,000 per year, even if 10% of those are head CTs that is 2,000 per year (or 150 a month).

 

[DrBowtie]

other doctors and even PAs thinking and saying with confidence they can read radiology films better than the radiologist when I see them looking at a series and then ask what the radiologist read was. Bugs me to no end. Oh and then add to that the fact that when I tell them I want to do radiology they try and convince to do something else.

I also dislike pretending to be interested in something I really don't like (e.g. obgyn).

I'm doing Radiology and for all of its flaws we keep hearing about, its still better (or perceived better) than most other specialties.

I didn't have a single attending on any service ever say anything other than "smart choice" or "wise man" when I told them what I was planning on going into. Sure the residents had snide comments and chest beating about their own specialties.

 

[ArcGurren]

Now that you're done with surgery, you should take a printout of your eval, find that surgeon, and smash that eval into his face

Nah. I'll just keep my Honors and leave him be. .

But seriously, the fact that the attending would have the balls to say something like that really baffled me. Do they really expect every single student to come through their office saying they want to do their specialty?

 

[ArcGurren]

I corrected an attending once (ok, maybe a few times), and got marked down on my evaluation as not being a team player. I don't understand why people have such fragile egos...if you're wrong, you're wrong...doesn't matter if you're the chair of medicine or a 2nd grader

That happened to me with a resident, who also marked me down and said I was "not open to constructive criticism" when he was clearly in the wrong. But I agree with what's already been said... pick and choose your battles. Unfortunately one of the reasons people enter medicine is to satisfy their lack of self-confidence (seriously) and bolster their fragile egos, so they don't necessarily tolerate people who disagree with them, even if they're wrong.

It's definitely a no-no with an attending; with a resident, I feel as long as you approach them nicely and in a non-confrontational/semi-flattering manner, they'll often be more amenable (and also not in front of everyone else).

 

[MossPoh]

I've mastered the art of question correcting. "Dr. X, I know that you said ______ happens, but I was wondering if there ever is a time where _____ could occur?"

I try to position myself so that I'm still in the position being taught. If they still won't acknowledge, I just move on. Excluding the time an orthopod called me a liar and wasting his time to my face. I made sure I pulled up the netter's image on my phone for that one.

 

[ArcGurren]

I've mastered the art of question correcting. "Dr. X, I know that you said ______ happens, but I was wondering if there ever is a time where _____ could occur?"

I try to position myself so that I'm still in the position being taught. If they still won't acknowledge, I just move on. Excluding the time an orthopod called me a liar and wasting his time to my face. I made sure I pulled up the netter's image on my phone for that one.

As baller as that is, I feel like if I had an attending like that he'd mark me down anyway for being butthurt.

 

[AlexMorph]

i find that i just mutter "bitches be trippin" to myself and walk away...these ppl are just imply not worth my time if they cant accept that they might have gotten their facts mixed up

 

[officedepot]

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[Bob California]

3rd year is tough, but at least the time off is way better than residency. My friends in residency tell me that they dream of the days of third year again.

Hang in there.

Call me Debbie Downer, but I need to vent some more. I'm tired and ready for third year to be over. Don't get me wrong, I've had some great experiences, but like most people I tend to be more vocal about the negative stuff.... plus it's nice to blow off steam.

1) Projects. As if being at my site 8 0 hours a week isn't enough, I get loaded down with papers to write and feelings to share. I'm not talking about the useful stuff like researching a subject and presenting it to my team. I'm talking about the busywork that actually impedes on my learning, because the time I spend on it is time I don't spend reading or doing some other useful activity. How educated people come up with these assignments and think they are worthwhile is beyond me.

2) People who act like scut work should excite me. Look, I get that some degree of scutwork comes with being on a team. Everyone has to share the load. But don't come to me and go, "Hey Mr. Hat, would you like to have the chance to take this blood to the lab?" while acting all excited about how awesome this is and what an honor it will be for me.

3) People who don't get I'm a third year. This goes both ways. I don't need you to tell me that the heart has four chambers, but on the other hand you shouldn't get pissed at me when I don't know every relevent factoid about your sub-sub-subspecialty.

4) Having to ask if I can take a bathroom break like I did when I was in first grade.


Feel free to add your own.

 

[MossPoh]

As baller as that is, I feel like if I had an attending like that he'd mark me down anyway for being butthurt.

It is all in the tone you use. There are times I play stupid just to let them go on their tangents and feel good about their mad skillz. I've also been fortunate in having great attendings that don't get their feelings hurt. My last one missed a few nephro MKSAP questions....and he is a nephrologist. He ripped on himself for it by the end. I couldn't be mean pr passive aggressive to a guy that was taking time to work through questions.

Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to do some Jedi mind tricks. "These aren't the labs you're looking for..."

 

[surftheiop]

neurosurgeons and neurologists are able to "read" a film only on the basis of what they are looking for. Their patients have likely had scans in the past the reports for which they have read. So there are plenty of times that a neurosurgeon can look at a scan of his own patient if he is specifically looking for something and give a "read" that is likely sufficient for his patient at that particular time.

however neither could take a head CT with no history and come to an accurate conclusion every time. It takes many years to be able to do that and it's just the arrogance of the neurosurgeon if he says he can.

Do radiologists get a magic crystal ball or something?

 

[DrBowtie]

Do radiologists get a magic crystal ball or something?

No it's called 5 years of dedicated imaging training. (4+1 fellowship)

 

[Phyozo]

neurosurgeons and neurologists are able to "read" a film only on the basis of what they are looking for. Their patients have likely had scans in the past the reports for which they have read. So there are plenty of times that a neurosurgeon can look at a scan of his own patient if he is specifically looking for something and give a "read" that is likely sufficient for his patient at that particular time.

however neither could take a head CT with no history and come to an accurate conclusion every time. It takes many years to be able to do that and it's just the arrogance of the neurosurgeon if he says he can.

The former seems sufficient to do their job...which makes their ability to read CTs sufficient in their field. In the majority of cases, there's always a clinical correlation to any imaging a radiologist receives and to read an image without a clinical correlation is meaningless because you can't nail the diagnosis (though you might be able to generate a top 3-5 possibilities).