most Archaic Secondary - U of South Florida

[USeF]

I had already finished three online or electronic secondaries when I received my university's secondary. As the subject says, this baby is outdated and recycled year after year.. Here is the e-mail I sent them:
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Admissions Officer

Hello. I am applying this year for admission into the Fall 2002 class. As I was completing the (secondary) application, there were a few parts of the application that I wanted to address.

The place of birth is requested twice on the form, Items 7 and 20. It seems that Item 7 is unecessary, as 20 is more detailed.

The second point to address is the certification paragraph. At the end of the first paragraph it states "I hereby agree to abide by the policies of the Board of Regents.."
As you may know, on July 1st, the Board of Regents was dissolved and has been replaced by local Board of Trustees at each Florida university. As this is a legally binding document, this may be important.

A final question/suggestion I have is concerning the use of a typewriter (or the equivalent) to complete this form. The University of Chicago has implemented a new secondary in .pdf form which also needs to be printed out and signed. The file is opened using Adobe Acrobat and can be directly edited and printed out with a computer. Learn more about it here: http://pritzker.bsd.uchicago.edu/sap2002/
So that you may see what I am speaking of, I have attached the file.

I hope these suggestions are useful to your admissions committee.
have a great day
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I hope they take this as a kick in the ass and catch up with the rest of technology. If I was super-confident in my chances at other schools, I would not even waste my time with a school that neglects to read over their own application. A school that does this sets a bad precedence.

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[Hopkins2010]

Yeah, schools should use more of the interactive PDF files that you can enter data into on the computer and printout.

Or they could use a Microsoft Word file in the same manner.

These changes are very easy to implement and then they wouldnt have the problem of reading people's handwriting (for those that choose not to use a typewriter).

Typewriters are antiquated technology and have been obsolete for at least teh past 10 years. Its time to get with the program.

 

[8675309]

I hope they take this as a kick in the ass and catch up with the rest of technology. If I was super-confident in my chances at other schools, I would not even waste my time with a school that neglects to read over their own application. A school that does this sets a bad precedence. [/QB]

I wish you would have posted before you sent the e-mail. Don't you think that you and your attitude come off as pretentious and arrogant in this e-mail. I mean that's the way Id view it if I got an email like that from an applicant. Are you going to tell them that their interview process is outdated, too? Or that you should not even have to apply to a school that you feel you are "wasting your time" with anyway?

That's just commonsense. Haven't you ever applied for a job? You don't tell the employer that their application form sucks. Think of how many people they have applying, it might just piss them off enough to throw yours out and since you aren't "super-confident" in your chances anyway..........

Just my 2 cents

I mean yes they should update their secondary, but here's a suggestion tell them that only after YOU'VE BEEN ACCEPTED!

 

[md2be06]

Hey USeF the Bull, what's the deal with USF this year? Have they established a timeline for interviews or anything? Florida schools are way behind since none of them decided to establish alternate pathways. UF won't take paper apps or letters of rec. Neither will UM. UM sends you a postcard asking you to verify your state residency or something once they get your name and address from AMCAS. After you return that, then they forward you a secondary. The USF secondary was a pain in the ass to fill out. Who the heck has access to a typewriter anymore? Sure sucks being a Florida resident during this application cycle.

 

[6-8 Weeks]

Originally posted by baylor21:
•Yeah, schools should use more of the interactive PDF files that you can enter data into on the computer and printout.

Or they could use a Microsoft Word file in the same manner.

These changes are very easy to implement and then they wouldnt have the problem of reading people's handwriting (for those that choose not to use a typewriter).

Typewriters are antiquated technology and have been obsolete for at least teh past 10 years. Its time to get with the program.•

Hmm a certain company that handles primary applications for medical school applicants got with the program this year by applying an advanced web-based databased system using oracle software. I heard they had a little trouble. In some cases, a more conservative approach to technology or perhaps a less dramatic adaptation of it would be more appropriate and efficient.

 

[md2be06]

C'mon, it's adobe acrobat we're talking about here. That's a far cry from the leap of faith AMCAS made with their web based system. Besides, how hard is it to test whether or not a .pdf file works correctly? If it doesn't work, you send out the paper secondaries like before. At least you still have a backup plan. The two situations aren't even remotely similar. I'm sorry, but adobe acrobat doesn't really constitute a dramatic adaptation of technology in my opinion. It's kinda inconvenient to have shell out $100 for a typewriter to fill out a secondary when it's the year 2001.

 

[6-8 Weeks]

Originally posted by md2be06:
•C'mon, it's adobe acrobat we're talking about here. That's a far cry from the leap of faith AMCAS made with their web based system. Besides, how hard is it to test whether or not a .pdf file works correctly? If it doesn't work, you send out the paper secondaries like before. At least you still have a backup plan. The two situations aren't even remotely similar. I'm sorry, but adobe acrobat doesn't really constitute a dramatic adaptation of technology in my opinion. It's kinda inconvenient to have shell out $100 for a typewriter to fill out a secondary when it's the year 2001.•

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I probably didn't come off right. I am all for PDFs, I love them, it is refreshing to just type it in and print it out, extremely efficient and neat. I'm not trying to compare secondaries on PDFs with the AMCAS Web System. Instead, I wanted to talk about the haste to computerize everything in one shot. I know that this web-system is new and when it is up and running will be blazingly fast, efficient and everything we all dream about. I just wish they had eased into it more or put some more trial runs into it before implementation. Its not like the world trashed typewriters the day that Steve Jobs announced the Apple II PC. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[USeF]

Originally posted by 8675309:
•
Don't you think that you and your attitude come off as pretentious and arrogant in this e-mail.?

I mean yes they should update their secondary, but here's a suggestion tell them that only after YOU'VE BEEN ACCEPTED!•

The part you quoted came after the ---, indicating I did NOT include it in the email. Yes, I was walking the thin line of telling a medical school that they have problems I've discovered. They can take it three ways:

1) react like you: assuming they are aware of all these problems, and still dont care to change it. They will see me as a nit-picky and arrogant applicant.

2) They already know these things, and as a result of their Admissions Director getting fired over a scandal [this is confirmed truth from students attending], so they were rushed this cycle and didn't have time to make the necessary changes. They will not even remember the email was sent.

3) Be appreciative that a student would be brave enough to state their opinions, and not be a passive or inhibited individual. They would be happy to have a student that can provide constructive criticism and will plan to actually make these changes.

Most likely, it's #2. If indeed it is 1, I dont want to go to their med school anyway. If they are like this while they are trynig to ATTRACT students, how will they treat me once I'm in?

With a school I feel confident I could get in to, and is my LAST choice, I'm willing to take this risk. After all, I first intended it as a service to them..

 

[md2be06]

Hey USeF the Bull, care to comment on what exactly happened with the admissions director? I hadn't heard anything about this until now. Any details would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[USeF]

Someone emailed me asking more about USF. realizing I am being unfair, I replied with this thorough message, inculding an answer to what (I heard) happened to Jay..
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Hello. How's it going? Funny that you are a local that went to Boston U. It was my first choice out of H.S.. But as I didn't receive the Trustee Scholarship, and my father was to begin travelling alot (leaving mom and sis alone) I sacrificed and chose to stay at USF for undergrad. As it turns out, I could never have imagined my experience being so great thus far!
USF is in an investment period where it is attracting the biggest and the brightest with great marketing strategies and $$. I lived in the Honors hall my freshman year. In my suite alone, there were three of us with 1400+ SAT. There is a huge influx of support by local businesses to see this school become a national research powerhouse. You can feel the excitement in the adminstration and faculty that they are part of something that is rising quickly.
As for location, it's North Tampa, so a good distance (20 min.) from downtown and close to the farmlands of central florida also. Being pretty urban, there are at least 4 teaching hosptials literally across the streets of USF! Many more throughout hillsborough. It does get hot, but you are from Tampa, so you know how it is: tThe pouring rain that comes and goes cools everything for a few days.
The students are defintely the top caliber of the state. Most dont know this, but USF actually has a higher MCAT average than any other Florida school (yes, UF too). USF: like 30.1, UF: 29.9 Small, but nonetheless. I met sudents from Duke and ivies undergrad that are loving it here. If you are thinking about doing clinical medicine (NOT public policy, research, consulting, hospital adminstration or the like) this school is excellent for Florida residents. Some of the top residency programs in the nation are located here. There was an article last year about 2 Harvard med grads that came here for anesthesiology.

Even though USF is my last choice, you have to see it as being my 14th choice out of 125 schools =) It's just their old admissions staff I'm not too keen on. Jay Leaman was 'cool' in the 'guy on a motorcycle with leather jacket' way.
This is NOT confirmed truth, but what I heard... A student was denied by the admissions committee last year, Jay admitted him anyway. The student had subpar scores and interview but had lots of money.... He received pressure to resign last month, along with his secretary, assitant and the dean of admissions working above him. Things like that dont happen if all is halal (the arab version of kosher). The new guy, Ackerman is supposedly a class act, and will hopefully fit in with USF's ambition to rise up.
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please post any add'l questions/comments. I've been helped LOADS by you guys, so I dont mind giving back.

 

[star23]

I hope you didn't waste time actually filling out the secondary because after that arrogant email, I don't think you have a chance. Are you confused about what constitutes kissing up? I am sure the admissions director is going to appreciate an arrogant kid tellilng him or her how to do their job.

 

[nashtrash]

i wouldn't be surprised if they filed that email...there are ways to give good constructive criticism and then there are ways to be a jerk about it. I think you're a nice guy USeF--but why the heck did you send that email?! the last part was a killer--sending them a link to university of chicago's app?? commom sense, man, common sense...why dont you just spit on your app before you send it in and tell them how you REALLY feel...

 

[md2be06]

Wow, that's sad to hear about Jay Layman. He was one of the few people who told it like it was when it came to the admissions process. I've met him a couple of times, and he seemed so laid back that I found it hard to believe he was actually an admissions director. I wonder what his ties were to this student? I have a hard time believing he would sacrifice his intergrity for financial gain.

 

[kornphan]

USFBull... question for you.. I have heard that USF (like other schools in Florida) are now required by law (passed this year by Bushy) that they must admit 11/12 'minority' students every year. That means that out of 96 position, 12 are 'reserved'. Also how much does USF rely on the MCAT scores ?.. does it matter to them as much as GPA ?.. It 'seems' that they are very much 'number' oriented. Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[usfgator]

I agree with MD2be06. Layman was a real good guy who told it like it was. His door was always open to anyone with questions about their application. Of course many thought he was too straightfoward and did not represent the proper demeanor of an admissions director. I disagree. What he did on his own time was his business. If Layman was no good then he would not have been widely respected by all his peers. He held that position for a long time. Out of all the admissions directors in Florida, he was the best. Now as for the typewriter issue, c'mon please. Everyone wants the easy way out. Most student unions and libraries have typewriters available. I do agree that it would be nice to have things more modernized, but to complain up a storm is ludicrous. No body ever said that this process would be a piece of cake. Suck it in and represent the future of medicine without cockiness.

 

[USeF]

kornphan: There may very well be a law like that. The legislation is flirting with AA issue, keeping a close eye on Cali and how things turn out there. ANyone that knows more info, please inform us all.

usfgator: You bring up some solid points. Indeed, my impression was that he DID tell it like it was.. about things he knew. For the average student that applies to USF and the undergrads at USF that he was always very willing to help, he was prepared. Yet I came to him with two reasonable questions as a sophomore (before I realized he was USF Med school's admissions guy. I thought he was from the undergrad Pre-Med office) that he had to redirect me for.

1) I'm interested in learning more about PBL and how schools that used to be traditional lecture based feel about the difference.

2) A curriculum with spirituality, complementary medicine, and/or research integrated seems interesting to me. What type of schools would have these and what are they looking for in an applicant.

He could answer neither of these. True, he was honest and did not make up BS answers, but an admissions officer at a med school should know a little bit more about his competition. The funny thing is, the vey helpful guy he sent me to for answers was Dr. Ackerman.. the *new* admissions director.

 

[USeF]

Oh yeah, the TYPEWRITER thing.

My intention was not to cry and complain about the difficulty or time-wasting of typewriting. In fact, I did it that night and found it kinda fun! Never had to use them before that I remember, so it was a learning experience.

The intention was to demonstrate the backwoods old-fashion impression that they give to prospective students about their process. If you look back at the other two points, I stress more the lack of professionalism demonstrated by not updating their application in who knows how many years .

Please realize that I've spent some time speaking to atleast 4 research professors there (one I worked for) about academics, medicine, islam, ethics etc.. and I've been thoroughly impressed with the level of respect they gave their students, let alone me as a lowly undergrad. This is an institution where many students are HAPPY about their decision. No doubt about it. The attack is geared toward admissions, not the med school as a whole.