1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice

Most DO's wanted to be MD's

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by gasdoc, Mar 30, 2001.

  1. gasdoc

    gasdoc Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    I got at least 2 of my friends in DO schools in SF and So Cal who said most (notice I didn't say all) DO students were MD school rejects. So, my question is why do the DO's claim about seeing the patient as a "whole" and how they are better than allopathic docs when THEY WANTED TO BE MD'S in the first place? Also, if DO's claim they are so different, why do so many of them want to go to the better equipped allopathic residency programs? It appears to me that DO's are contradicting their own philosophy. They claim to practice bone manipulation and their philosophy claims that misalignment of the musculoskeletal system is the "root of all diseases", but yet they do residency training and start prescribing drugs and doing surgeries EXACTLY like their MD counterpart. I personally think that DO's should accept that they are no different from us and just be honest that osteopathy is all good on paper, but has little practical value. Allopathic medicine is still supreme, but I know of few patients who can claim they were healed by OMT. Patients are healed by pills and surgery!!! Also, DO's, when given the chance, will specialize just as MD's do so they can make more money.

    [This message has been edited by gasdoc (edited March 31, 2001).]
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Is this DO vs. MD thing something we really need to revisit? Some might say that going to a DO school means that you weren't as successful in Undergrad as the US MD student. Some might also say that someone going into Anesthesia isn't as successful in Medical school as the medical student going into Emergency Medicine or Dermatology.

    Come on doc, this is one of those Pre-med topics not a MS IV topic. The only pre-meds who spew the whole bit of being 'holistic' and 'better than MDs' are insecure pre-meds. Just like the only MDs who spew this crap about MDs being better than DOs are insecure medical students.

    All of the practicing DOs that I have met have never spewed that type of B.S. The advantage that some US Allopathic Medical Students like to believe exists, does not anymore. Sorry, you'll have to be judged on your board scores, Letters, and any audition rotations you have done. I hope that's okay with you. You wouldn't want a free ticket to residency just because you have the letters M.D. after your name, now would you?

    I've read and been told that Osteopathic Skills are just one of the subjects taught in D.O. school. Those who wish to develop those skills do a residency that teaches that stuff. Those that don't care, wind up doing another type of residency -- Anesthesia for example. Also, many choose to do Allopathic residencies because there are simply more of them. With 125 schools, I'd hope we have more residencies than D.O. schools.

    Can we stop with this MD vs. DO crap? Leave it for the pre-meds. Maybe many DOs are MD rejects. There are also some MDs who are DO rejects. All I look at is where someone did their residency. I'd take the DO Chief Resident of Neurosurgery at Davis over the MD Chief Resident at South Carolina any day.
     
  4. raddoc

    raddoc Junior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2001
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear GASDOC,
    You must be kidding. You based your statement about MOST D.O.'s on conversations you had with 2 D.O.'s in California? Do me a favor and do not become involved with medical research, statistics, or population sampling. Your margin of error must be horrendous. I believe that I can say truthfully that most M.D.'s and D.O.'s went to their respective training institutions to become PHYSICIANS. I went ot a D.O. school because I applied to one and was accepted. I amcurrently in an M.D. residency because I applied and was accepted. I need not mention that there were M.D.'s who applied who were not accepted. Both are licensed equally. I hate to quote Rodney King but, "Can't we all just get along?"
     
  5. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 1998
    Messages:
    6,851
    Likes Received:
    2,038
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    The root of osteopathic philosophy is *NOT* that the neuromusculoskeletal system is the basis for all disease (that's more or less chiropractic thinking if anything). The basis of osteopathic philosophy is that the body is a self-regulating, self-healing system. This may seem quite trite by today's standards of thinking. Find me one MD who would disagree with that statement on the face of it! But, when Andrew Taylor Still posited it in the late 1800's, around the same time that European physicians were working out the details of the concept of homeostasis, it was a radical paradigm shift.

    Today, through ongoing research, we also know that sometimes the body is *NOT* always capable of self-regulation and healing. Under conditions of high allostatic load, the body pays an enormous price for its mechanisms of self-regulation. This wear-and-tear process literally overwhelms the body and prevents normal homeostatic mechanisms from effectively compensating in the long term:

    "Allostasis has a price (allostatic load, referring to cumulative negative effects, or the price the body pays for being forced to adapt to various psychosocial challenges and adverses environments) that is related to how inefficient the response is, or how many challenges an individual experiences (ie, a lot of stressful events). Thus allostatic load is more than "chronic stress" and encompasses many aspects of an individual's life that affect the regulation and level of the mediators of allostasis. Among the many factors that contribute to allostatic load are genes and early development, as well as learned behaviors reflecting life style choices of diet, exercise, smoking and drinking. All of these factors influence the reactivity of the systems that produce the physiological stress mediators. Thus allostatic load reflects, in part, genetically- or developmentally-programmed inefficiency in handling the normal challenges of daily life related to the sleep-wake cycle and other daily experiences, as well as the adverse physiological consequences of a fat-rich diet, drinking or smoking."

    http://www.macses.ucsf.edu/Research/Allostatic/notebook/allostatic.html

    A.T. Still was rebelling against the practice of heroic medicine which dominated the American medical way of thinking in the late 1800's. Manipulation was developed as a tool to stimulate the body and decrease allostatic load. Still did not "invent" manipulation. Hippocrates practiced manipulation. Still did not intend to create a separate branch of medicine. That only happened because of contentious political differences between the AMA and this new group of physicians called DO's. Still *did* experiment with using manipulation as a tool to stimulate the body's own defenses and regulatory systems. Still *did* in fact believe that manipulation (and surgery) were the only tools that a sophisticated practice of medicine would require. He was wrong and future generations of osteopathic physicians refined osteopathic principles and practices. The value of pharmaceuticals were more appreciated and incorporated shortly after Still's death.

    Your main problem is that you look foolish when you post to an osteopathic forum and make statements like, "the musculoskeletal system is the basis of disease in osteopathic philosophy." In turn, others read your statements and literally laugh out loud at your ignorance. The final effect is that all your credibility flies out the window. Also, it appears that you have a poor grasp of the history of osteopathic medicine. I recommend that you clarify your understanding of osteopathic principles before posting further comments to this forum. There are many here who will see to it that you get a proper education on the subject.

    Start here:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0801843219/qid=985962885/sr=1-1/re f=sc_b_2/107-3111672-9674145

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0443079919/qid=985962968/sr=1-6/re f=sc_b_7/107-3111672-9674145


    [This message has been edited by drusso (edited March 30, 2001).]
     
  6. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 1998
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    I never wanted to be an MD. Enough said?

    Toran
     
  7. gasdoc

    gasdoc Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thank you for all of your informed opinions and will certainly see DOs differently now. But, you shouldn't beat on me so hard, b/c I am not the only IGNORANT allopathic medical student. I can bet you any amount of money that most allopathic students have similar perceptions of osteopathic students (as I did) or just simply don't even know who you are. And, having so many DO's coming into allopathic residency programs don't help your uniqueness any b/c it just gives the view that DO's want to renege their unique identity and become MD's. I am not here to blantantly anger you, but that's just how it is. DO's, to me, just don't seem to have their act together and have no unifying identity. Some are true believers but there are also many nonbelievers. Also, someone made the comparison between uncompetitive specialties like anesthesiology and competitive ones like emergency medicine. Well, the interesting thing is now that anesthesiology is catapulting back into favor, the good programs are rejecting the DOs and FMGs that they would gladly take a few years back. This is a fact, not my opinion. So, I am not the only allopathic doctor who had negative ideas of DO's, b/c it appears that my teachers do also, as shown by their admission preferences. To make a long story short, your education of me on the DO philosophy is well taken and I have new-found respect for you. But, you still have the enormous task of educating the rest of the MDs which make up the bulk of the medical profession about who you really are. As a "stupid" MD student, it appears to me that if DOs are already practicing 98% like MDs, why not just convert your schools into conferring MD degrees. Then, there would be no more contention. Okay, I am ready for the barrage of attacks.
     
  8. turtleboard

    turtleboard SDN Advisor
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 1999
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    For me the factor was mainly financial in deciding to be an MD rather than a DO. I really had no interest in accumulating hundreds of thousands' worth of debt from a medical education, and NYCOM -- which was the only school I applied to and the first school to accept me -- was just too damn expensive. I'm sure current NYCOM students can vouch for me. [​IMG]

    Anyway, my choice to attend SUNY, where I'll have about a $20,000 bill at the end of four years' worth of schooling was a lot more attractive.

    So you can count me as one of the MDs who wanted to be a DO, but at this point, I really couldn't care less. It still wouldn't be as good as being an actuary, I think. [​IMG]

    ------------------
    Tim Wu.
     
  9. Dr. B

    Dr. B Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    I doubt if it is scientifically or rationally wise to make a "confirmation" based on what 2 people say about a group of thousands of people. Sure there are DO students that were MD rejects just as there are MD students that are DO rejects. There are also people in every medical school class who decided to go to medical school just to get chicks, make money, or have their egos stroked daily.

    Personally, I think this DO vs. MD thing has been beaten to death. Let the pre-meds argue this one out. What was the point of this thread anyway?

    Dr. B


    [This message has been edited by Dr. B (edited March 30, 2001).]
     
  10. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 1998
    Messages:
    6,851
    Likes Received:
    2,038
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    The original intent behind osteopathic medicine as a social movement was to convert the MD schools to DO schools...not vice-versa.

     
  11. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 1998
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where did you come up with 98%?
    The difference lies in the perspective of the patient, and of how to treat disease. I would say that difference is greater than 2%.

    Again, David your thoughts are always extraordinary.

    Toran
     
  12. hotinwoof

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2001
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hrmmm, I'm actually a premed still. Have worked at a hospital for almost a year now in cardiology for my clinical experience before applying. I do rounds at 6am every morning and am who patients see usually before anyone else. I've learned a lot since I started working here. I came in with misperceptions of DOs and MDs. You know what? No one gives a da*mn what you are. Patients just want to get well. Nurses just want you to do your job and get out of their face and techs think you all think you are all that. The old doctors are disgruntled they are still working. Anesthesiologists are always smiling. Radiologists never come out of their cubby hole. Internal med docs seem to be on 24/7. Administrators are always changing something only to change it back to the way it was. What's the point in all this? The point is that no one gives a crap what title you have at the end of your name. For every DO there are 10 others next to him, for every MD there are 100 others next to him, no one is any more special than the next guy...there is always some doctor who is better than you. There are a lot of carribean trained doctors who think they are all that and they probably are because when you are busy and all you want is time off to play some golf or sleep...you don't care anything about the next guy except whether he will take your calls so you can go take a break and spend some of that money you make. Oh yes, be sure of one thing...no matter what you are, insurance companies will pay you the same whether you went to harvard for undergrad, ucsf for med school, and john hopkins for residency, or community college for 2 years, state college for your bachelors, and carribean for med school...you get the same dollar. As far as DOs and MDs in the field of cardiology and Emergency Medicine..they do the same crap. Stop all your bitchin and worry about how the insurance companies will screw you...hospitals won't stop paging you and how much alimony your wife is going to sue you for. Yep it's true kiddies...most docs are divorced because they make a ton of money but dont have time to spend it with or without their significant other...that is provided you had time to find a spouse in or through med school.
     
  13. Dr. B

    Dr. B Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bravo Hotinwoof! Thank you for your intelligent and oh-so-true response.

    Dr. B
     
  14. Master Bastion

    Master Bastion Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hotinwoof,

    Premeds are not all the same....(sigh of relief)
     
  15. MB,

    You're right!! Most are insecure and the rest are really insecure. [​IMG] Just kidding. I guess I am reveling in the idea that I am no longer a student.

    [​IMG]Stinky
     
  16. William

    William Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hotinwoof couldn't have said it any better.

    The best lines are about insurance companies.

    They couldn't care WHO they are paying because to them you are just a "number" on an accountant's spreadsheet on a computer somehwere
     
  17. kundun

    kundun Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 1999
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    0
    gasdoc...I don't give a flying [email protected]#$ what the last letters are behind my name...MD, DO, MBBS, whatever as long as I get to practice medicine when its all said and done...a little news flash...MDs aren't superior to DOs...nobody is superior to anybody for that matter on this earth...we're all human and will be eventually pushing up daisies...so get off your friggin' superiority soap box and practice humility, compassion and dedication just like the rest of us who want to play doctor someday
     
  18. NurseyK

    NurseyK Bunny-Slave
    Physician Faculty 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    The only comment I have re: the oh-so-ignorant-gasdope's post:

    Just last nite the ER medical staff was congratulating me on being accepted, blah, blah...and one of the PA's said, "So, you decided on DO school, right?" Welp, one of the "older" IM docs was sitting at the desk writing admit orders on a pt. He says, "What's DO school?". I, standing a little straighter and prouder [​IMG] reply, "Osteopathic medical school"...he says, "Oh...are they still around?" Then, "Boy, I had heard medschool enrollment was down; they sure must be desperate if they're starting to accept nurses...."

    [sigh] [​IMG]

    Kat, DO (Class '05) - for the record

    ------------------
    The grass isn't greener on the other side --- it's just different grass

    [This message has been edited by NurseyK (edited April 03, 2001).]
     
  19. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 1998
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stand tall, stand pround, and carry a big stick. You'll be a great physician Nurse

    Toran
     
  20. bluphilosopher

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whatsup miss NurseyK
    From that guys comments, he apparently is yet another physician he seems to have some weird issue with nurses. Trust me, you were doomed in his eyes from the start.

    hypothetical scenario
    After being nominated first women president of the United States of America, Kat stands up and gives her inaugural address to the nation. Watching his TV at home, the IM doc proclaims we must have been desperate if were starting to accept nurses.... Well, you get the picture.

    In good faith,
    bluphilosopher
    PCOM 2005
     
  21. Kat,

    Are you going to PCOM?
     
  22. MD-PGY1

    MD-PGY1 Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I couldn't resist.

    During clincals I had an attending who was a DO. We were in doing a physical on a chemo patient when the patient caught site of his ID badge. She suddenly grabbed his hand and said, "I thought you told me you were my doctor." My attending replied, "I am your doctor." She then asked what a DO is and after he explained it to her she asked him to go and find her a real doctor, "one with an MD behind his name."

    My attending looked a little offended but agreed and called in a Doctor from pakistan who had an MD after his name, but who could barely speak english and who had only been practicing in his residency for 8 months....the pt beamed with delight!

    So go figure....people have perceptions of what they think is the right way for things to be done....in medicine and in healthcare in general, there is often more than one right way to approach a task....the same is true for medical education. To say that DO's, MD's or even foriegn MDs are better or worse physicians because of where they went to school or the letters they have after there name is like saying there is only one way to treat a community aquired pneumonia. Its just ignorant.
     
  23. NurseyK

    NurseyK Bunny-Slave
    Physician Faculty 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    MEAT - I'm still waiting to hear (the *magical* date was Apr 20th per the letter). My money is in on my 2nd choice, and I dumped the rest of my apps, so I have a seat regardless. [heaving a sigh - popping another Valium/EtOH combo] ....gee, I can hardly wait for the same agony at Match time 4th year! LOL

    Thanks for your support all!

    - a standing tall/holding-a-big-stick/striking-a-Wonder-Woman-pose-with-red-cape-flying

    Kat [​IMG]

    (chit...did I just show my age?)
     
  24. Toran

    Toran Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 1998
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your doing great Kat, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you!

    May the force be with you,

    toran
     
  25. RDJ

    RDJ

    GO Kat! I'm root'n for ya...
     
  26. Dr. P

    Dr. P Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2000
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    I got at least 2 of my friends in DO schools in SF and So Cal who said most (notice I didn't say all) DO students were MD school rejects. So, my question is why do the DO's claim about seeing the patient as a "whole" and how they are better than allopathic docs when THEY WANTED TO BE MD'S in the first place? Also, if DO's claim they are so different, why do so many of them want to go to the better equipped allopathic residency programs? It appears to me that DO's are contradicting their own philosophy. They claim to practice bone manipulation and their philosophy claims that misalignment of the musculoskeletal system is the "root of all diseases", but yet they do residency training and start prescribing drugs and doing surgeries EXACTLY like their MD counterpart. I personally think that DO's should accept that they are no different from us and just be honest that osteopathy is all good on paper, but has little practical value. Allopathic medicine is still supreme, but I know of few patients who can claim they were healed by OMT. Patients are healed by pills and surgery!!! Also, DO's, when given the chance, will specialize just as MD's do so they can make more money.

    I originally wanted to be an MD, rather a doctor- but MD was all I knew. Then I learned about DO, and here I am. Now, in retrospect, I couldn't imagine medicine or having gone through medical school without learning OMT or our philosophy. And even if I train in an allopathic residency, my degree will always be DO, as will my approach to patients, my ability to use OMT, and my way of thinking osteopathically regarding disease and prevention. Patients often say there is something "different" about the way they do things, talk to you, not sure what. It comes through, subtly, but nevertheless. In retrospect, the best thing that happened to me was having had the opportunity to go to an osteopathic medical school.
    Dr. P., DO, NY
     
  27. I agree that many people indeed have applied to MD schools before they learned about Osteopathy. From the discussions above, it seems some people feel they are superior because they have the MD behind their name. I feel that we as either DOs or MDs, we should always put the patients first. If taking care of people is truely why we go into medicine than the title behind our name, prestige, money, etc.... should all be secondary.
     
  28. Medic171

    Medic171 Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Medical Student
    How about the fact that we all will have the SAME 2 letters in fromt of our name.

    Dr.
     
  29. Neurogirl

    Neurogirl Resident Extraordinaire
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2000
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dr. P,

    Are you an osteopathic student? Your first paragraph implies that you are not. You talk about your "friends" in DO school and you state, "DO's should accept that they are no different from us...", but then in your second paragraph you state that you are a DO student. I don't know where you went to school, but your statement regarding manipulation is incorrect. The fact is, Osteopathy has NEVER claimed that "misalignment of the musculoskeletal system is the root of all diseases". That is the foundation of the Chiropractic philosophy. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just confused by your statements.
     
  30. TNT

    TNT Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2000
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    0
    Neurogirl,

    Dr.P's first paragraph was just a copy of the original posters remarks. They were not DrP's opinions, but the opinions of the original poster.
     
  31. Choirgrl05

    Choirgrl05 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had never even heard of Osteopathic med school until a few months before I started applying. Now, I'm going into a DO program next year. The problem is the whole Louisiana and DO thing (that's a whole different topic). But once I found out about it, the more determined I was about going into a DO program. When I finally got my letter of acceptance all of my family was disapointed because I wasn't going to be an MD. It wasn't exactly the joyful response I had always dreamed of.
    I have found though, that people I have met who have been accepted into both allopathic and osteopathic have chosen the DO program. I have such respect for them for standing up in what they believe in.
    Also, while I know that it's true that there are some DO's who did want to be MD's and really don't subscribe to the philosophy, there are a heck of a lot of MD students who were pressured by their families to go into med school didn't even like medicine in the first place. How would you like to have them for your surgeon?
     
  32. prolixless

    prolixless Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2000
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would like to add some "osteopathic" comments in response to the original poster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the osteopathic philosophy--beyond practical terms--ever makes a claim that disease has a specific "root" or cause. Disease is rather any deviation from wellness that includes multiple factors of a person's physical environment, social environment, personal attitudes, personal responses, as well as his/her biological circumstances. In other words, the *whole* spectrum of life and personhood is involved in wellness and disease.

    The osteopathic philosophy does indeed strongly emphasize the musculoskeletal system in wellness and disease, so I can see how many people make claims like "the misalignment of the musculoskeletal system is the root of all disease." A fundamental tenet of the osteopathic philosophy is that "structure is reciprical/interrelated to function." That is if a structural (i.e. anatomical) abnormality occurs, then a functional (i.e. physiological) abnormality will occur, and vice versa. And since the musculoskeletal system is by far the largest structual support in the body, it is emphasized as strongly related to the disease process. Stemming from this tenet is that manipulation of structure can alter function in a positive way, thereby allowing the body to heal itself.

    I don't think the original poster's comment "the misalignment of the musculoskeletal system is the root of all disease" is that far off from the osteopathic philosophy. It is, however, exagerated and ignores other key factors of the osteopathic philosophy.
     
  33. sean

    sean Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just read this thread and it is nice to see most people acting like grown-ups with respect to this old discussion. The reason I still read these threads is because every now and again someone really comes up with something worth reading. Excellent post Drusso, that is the clearest, most concise, posting on osteopathy I have read on this forum to date. Sean.
     
  34. Pikevillemedstudent

    Pikevillemedstudent Bengals Fan
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2000
    Messages:
    364
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Actually Louisana now recognizes the COMLEX for licensure and is even considering granting scholarships to Louisana residents who are attending DO school.
     

Share This Page