Most Female/Male-dominated specialties (graph)

[freemontie]

Interesting, I thought. But maybe nobody's surprised, other than at OBGYN not being #1.

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[tiedyeddog]

I am very surprised the percent in neurosurgery is that high...

 

[Ltl Ducky]

For curiosities sake, do you guys think going into a specialty as a women with a low number of females in that specialty is an advantage or a disadvantage? I am interested in neurosurgery/cardiothoracic surgery which are at the bottom of the list. Being female could be a huge advantage or make the process a bit of an uphill battle.

 

[giantswing]

Could work either way. Some programs really make an effort to recruit women, some are old school and won't even interview. That's tonsay nothing of the day to day attitudes that a woman would have to deal with at work. but if you don't meet minimum requirements it doesn't matter.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Could work either way. Some programs really make an effort to recruit women, some are old school and won't even interview. That's tonsay nothing of the day to day attitudes that a woman would have to deal with at work. but if you don't meet minimum requirements it doesn't matter.

I'm not "in the know" here but I'm calling BS on that. I highly doubt there is ANY program that won't interview a stellar candidate just because she's a woman.

I know many males that want to do ortho. I don't think a single female in my class wants to do it. When our class matches there won't be any females because of sexism, there won't be any females because there wasn't any female interest in the field. Similiarly, there aren't a lot of guys going into peds. You can speculate the reasons but being denied an interview isn't even on the list of possibilities why.

 

[Wordead]

Would be interesting to see this stratified out by age - numbers are skewed by the "old guard" before women became equally represented in medical school. There were more women than men that I saw on the interview trail for ENT and would be curious if the percentages have shifted.

 

[ERK123]

It would be interested to see this graph controlled for people entering these specialties over the past 10 or so years.

 

[sameharu1991]

hmm kind of curious to see how this differs by race/ethnicity reported... lol

 

[massmocha]

I just matched in ortho and there were definitely some women at all the interviews (maybe 10%) and most programs made a point of encouraging female applicants. Having said that, there are definitely lots of high profile programs that are essentially "boys clubs" and have only a couple female residents throughout the 5-6 year cohort. My class is all male, for example.

 

[iowafan]

For curiosities sake, do you guys think going into a specialty as a women with a low number of females in that specialty is an advantage or a disadvantage? I am interested in neurosurgery/cardiothoracic surgery which are at the bottom of the list. Being female could be a huge advantage or make the process a bit of an uphill battle.

I have heard arguments that being female makes you more likely to get into a specialty. Affirmative action practices, quotas hospitals may have to meet, etc.

 

[iowafan]

I'm not "in the know" here but I'm calling BS on that. I highly doubt there is ANY program that won't interview a stellar candidate just because she's a woman.

I know many males that want to do ortho. I don't think a single female in my class wants to do it. When our class matches there won't be any females because of sexism, there won't be any females because there wasn't any female interest in the field. Similiarly, there aren't a lot of guys going into peds. You can speculate the reasons but being denied an interview isn't even on the list of possibilities why.

Yes.

 

[giantswing]

I'm not "in the know" here but I'm calling BS on that. I highly doubt there is ANY program that won't interview a stellar candidate just because she's a woman.

Of course, I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, but I just know there were places residents told me to not bother rotating or applying there because it'd be a waste.

 

[Merely]

I'm not "in the know" here but I'm calling BS on that. I highly doubt there is ANY program that won't interview a stellar candidate just because she's a woman.

I know many males that want to do ortho. I don't think a single female in my class wants to do it. When our class matches there won't be any females because of sexism, there won't be any females because there wasn't any female interest in the field. Similiarly, there aren't a lot of guys going into peds. You can speculate the reasons but being denied an interview isn't even on the list of possibilities why.

If you're not in the know, I'm not sure why you felt compelled to respond. Not sure why you claim that you doubt that ANY program would not interview a woman when you haven't even been on interviews nor do you probably know of most programs or what their proclivities or biases are.

 

[Keladry]

I'm not "in the know" here but I'm calling BS on that. I highly doubt there is ANY program that won't interview a stellar candidate just because she's a woman.

I know many males that want to do ortho. I don't think a single female in my class wants to do it. When our class matches there won't be any females because of sexism, there won't be any females because there wasn't any female interest in the field. Similiarly, there aren't a lot of guys going into peds. You can speculate the reasons but being denied an interview isn't even on the list of possibilities why.

Sexism is more than just a man saying to a women, "You can't do that because you're a woman."* That's not happening so much any more, but that's not to say that women in medicine aren't dealing with decades of societal/cultural influences suggesting that they're better suited to doing A than B. Plus the lack of female role models can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are reasons that you don't know any females interested in the field, and it's almost certainly not pure luck.
I mean, I'm a female interested in a male-dominated field. Everyone I've talked to in the field has been super supportive, but I'm still worried about having to prove myself better than the guys while also having to prove that I can *be* one of the guys.

*although I still have had people make remarks about how I won't be able to raise a family and be a doctor, especially not a surgeon, that I only have so many fertile years, that women are better suited to nursing, etc. etc., which is pretty sexist and also makes assumptions about me that may or may not be true (that I want to get married, that it will be to a man, that I want to have children, that I want to have biological children...)

(This post is pretty poorly worded, sorry. It's Friday afternoon, my brain is fried )

 

[muhali3]

The percentages are much different if you look at the resident profile of each specialty (FRIEDA). Pathology has more than 50% female residents, although relative differences are probably similar.

 

[lal4life]

For curiosities sake, do you guys think going into a specialty as a women with a low number of females in that specialty is an advantage or a disadvantage? I am interested in neurosurgery/cardiothoracic surgery which are at the bottom of the list. Being female could be a huge advantage or make the process a bit of an uphill battle.

I know of an ortho program that realized that all of their residents were essentially the same person (run of the mill white guy that likes sports, you know, the stereotypical boys club guys) so they decided to get some diversity. The next year's 2 interns were a black guy that looks like an NFL running back and a short Asian girl. I guess it might depend on the year that you apply and if they've realized they need some diversity or not.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'd be interested in the same graph for recent or current residents. I think there would be substantial shifts.

 

[mmmcdowe]

For curiosities sake, do you guys think going into a specialty as a women with a low number of females in that specialty is an advantage or a disadvantage? I am interested in neurosurgery/cardiothoracic surgery which are at the bottom of the list. Being female could be a huge advantage or make the process a bit of an uphill battle.

FWIW, compared to their percentage of the applicant pool, women were disproportionately present in the top 20 people of our match list.

 

[samsunimomo]

FWIW, compared to their percentage of the applicant pool, women were disproportionately present in the top 20 people of our match list.

By disproportionate, do you mean underrepresented or overrepresented?

 

[giantswing]

FWIW, compared to their percentage of the applicant pool, women were disproportionately present in the top 20 people of our match list.

What field?

 

[Tired]

...

 

[muhali3]

By disproportionate, do you mean underrepresented or overrepresented?

he's in neurosurgery. so he prob means over-represented.

 

[qw098]

I'm confused... there are more women in medical school but more male doctors percentage wise?

 

[BurghStudent]

FWIW, compared to their percentage of the applicant pool, women were disproportionately present in the top 20 people of our match list.

What does that mean though?

 

[Smurfette]

I'm confused... there are more women in medical school but more male doctors percentage wise?

Yes. It will be years before women make up 50% of the physicians. Women were very much a minority in med school until pretty recently. All those older physicians are predominantly male; those who graduated med school in the 80s and 90s or earlier. It'll take longer and be slower for non primary care type specialties to increase their % women.

 

[qw098]

Yes. It will be years before women make up 50% of the physicians. Women were very much a minority in med school until pretty recently. All those older physicians are predominantly male; those who graduated med school in the 80s and 90s or earlier. It'll take longer and be slower for non primary care type specialties to increase their % women.

right, forgot it was only till recently that feminists have started to take over

 

[mmmcdowe]

What does that mean though?

No clue.

 

[PL198]

Yes. It will be years before women make up 50% of the physicians. Women were very much a minority in med school until pretty recently. All those older physicians are predominantly male; those who graduated med school in the 80s and 90s or earlier. It'll take longer and be slower for non primary care type specialties to increase their % women.

So peds is sexist in favor of women then right? You're trying to take a very complicated issue (choice) and make it black and white . It's unlikely medicine will ever be 50/50 and theres nothing wrong with that.

No one complains when 98% of garbagemen are men.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Only reason I can think of that OB isn't at the top is that a bunch of the old male OBs havent retired yet. If you look at the incoming classes of OB residents, there's maybe one guy in the whole class if any.

 

[tiedyeddog]

When you think about how the match works, this story makes zero sense.

Maybe the program only ranked big black guys and short Asian girls?

 

[tiedyeddog]

Only reason I can think of that OB isn't at the top is that a bunch of the old male OBs havent retired yet. If you look at the incoming classes of OB residents, there's maybe one guy in the whole class if any.

I was pretty amazed by that as well. At my home ob program there are two classes of just females, only about four dudes total out of 20 something residents.

 

[massmocha]

I have also heard rheumatology is becoming more female dominated in younger generations of physicians. I'm not sure why that is specifically. And derm, at least at my med school, all the attendings are female except one.

 

[Tired]

...

 

[Smurfette]

So peds is sexist in favor of women then right? You're trying to take a very complicated issue (choice) and make it black and white . It's unlikely medicine will ever be 50/50 and theres nothing wrong with that.

No one complains when 98% of garbagemen are men.

I was only explaining why medicine is still male predominant despite med schools currently being much more balanced with M/F students. I made no comment regarding pediatrics nor was I complaining. I am sure some specialties will remain male or female dominant over time, although not nearly to the extent they were historically or even currently. Some fields are viewed as less or more female friendly, which is why women tend toward or away those fields a bit more. As that changes, it'll become more balanced. Balanced does not have to mean exactly 50% in every field.

 

[PL198]

I was only explaining why medicine is still male predominant despite med schools currently being much more balanced with M/F students. I made no comment regarding pediatrics nor was I complaining. I am sure some specialties will remain male or female dominant over time, although not nearly to the extent they were historically or even currently. Some fields are viewed as less or more female friendly, which is why women tend toward or away those fields a bit more. As that changes, it'll become more balanced. Balanced does not have to mean exactly 50% in every field.

fair enough

 

[amichel]

Sexism is more than just a man saying to a women, "You can't do that because you're a woman."* That's not happening so much any more, but that's not to say that women in medicine aren't dealing with decades of societal/cultural influences suggesting that they're better suited to doing A than B. Plus the lack of female role models can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are reasons that you don't know any females interested in the field, and it's almost certainly not pure luck.
I mean, I'm a female interested in a male-dominated field. Everyone I've talked to in the field has been super supportive, but I'm still worried about having to prove myself better than the guys while also having to prove that I can *be* one of the guys.

*although I still have had people make remarks about how I won't be able to raise a family and be a doctor, especially not a surgeon, that I only have so many fertile years, that women are better suited to nursing, etc. etc., which is pretty sexist and also makes assumptions about me that may or may not be true (that I want to get married, that it will be to a man, that I want to have children, that I want to have biological children...)

(This post is pretty poorly worded, sorry. It's Friday afternoon, my brain is fried )

This post plus your username and avatar... Love it. So much. I'm guessing very few people understand or appreciate this but wanted to let you know that I do!

 

[samsunimomo]

So peds is sexist in favor of women then right? You're trying to take a very complicated issue (choice) and make it black and white . It's unlikely medicine will ever be 50/50 and theres nothing wrong with that.

No one complains when 98% of garbagemen are men.

I feel that for certain health occupations, especially for primary care-oriented jobs like nursing, peds, family medicine, and internal medicine, people would want gender parity (I'd definitely love to see more male nurses and pediatricians, but the economics and the potential stigma attached doesn't make this likely).

Can't really say the same for urologists and gynecologists.

 

[PL198]

I feel that for certain health occupations, especially for primary care-oriented jobs like nursing, peds, family medicine, and internal medicine, people would want gender parity (I'd definitely love to see more male nurses and pediatricians, but the economics and the potential stigma attached doesn't make this likely).

Can't really say the same for urologists and gynecologists.

wut

so you arbitrarily want equal amounts of the genders in various fields, but then don't in specific fields.

logic not even once

I'm not going to cry if 80 % of nurses are women. that generally aligns with avg woman's interests more than being a physician. it's not sexism, it's their preference.

 

[samsunimomo]

wut

so you arbitrarily want equal amounts of the genders in various fields, but then don't in specific fields.

logic not even once

I'm not going to cry if 80 % of nurses are women. that generally aligns with avg woman's interests more than being a physician. it's not sexism, it's their preference.

It's not arbitrary, it would depend on how much gender parity can benefit the profession and the patients in different contexts and situations. Of course, this would be really difficult to determine, nevertheless actually implement. Still, I think this would be better solution for having 100% gender parity across all professions (which you'd agree is just impractical and heavy-handed) and account for existing difference in gender norms and roles. It's a nice compromise that would never actually work in the real world because ain't nobody got time for that.

On a side note, I would like more scholarships and programs to get more men into nursing and teaching.

 

[Kahreek]

...............

 

[BobbyB]

It's not arbitrary, it would depend on how much gender parity can benefit the profession and the patients in different contexts and situations. Of course, this would be really difficult to determine, nevertheless actually implement. Still, I think this would be better solution for having 100% gender parity across all professions (which you'd agree is just impractical and heavy-handed) and account for existing difference in gender norms and roles. It's a nice compromise that would never actually work in the real world because ain't nobody got time for that.

On a side note, I would like more scholarships and programs to get more men into nursing and teaching.

i would rather have the best applicants for the job get it than pick based on sex

i would be against male scholarships. scholarships should be based on socioeconomic factors rather than race or sex.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I feel that for certain health occupations, especially for primary care-oriented jobs like nursing, peds, family medicine, and internal medicine, people would want gender parity (I'd definitely love to see more male nurses and pediatricians, but the economics and the potential stigma attached doesn't make this likely).

Can't really say the same for urologists and gynecologists.

Yeah agree that this doesn't make sense. As much as you might think you might "feel" certain genders should have parity in certain specialities vs others (which is a ridiculously ambiguous thing in the first place), that's a much more arbitrary thing than you're making it out to be.

As long as we aren't putting barriers in people's way due to their gender, that's about as far as we need to go. Let people choose whatever they want, whether you think there are too many males or females in that specialty or not.

 

[Keladry]

This post plus your username and avatar... Love it. So much. I'm guessing very few people understand or appreciate this but wanted to let you know that I do!

This makes me so happy <3

 

[amichel]

This makes me so happy <3

One of my favourite authors as an adolescent/teen and she just seems to get wiser the older I get. Sounds corny but true. <3

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[PL198]

It's not arbitrary, it would depend on how much gender parity can benefit the profession and the patients in different contexts and situations. Of course, this would be really difficult to determine, nevertheless actually implement. Still, I think this would be better solution for having 100% gender parity across all professions (which you'd agree is just impractical and heavy-handed) and account for existing difference in gender norms and roles. It's a nice compromise that would never actually work in the real world because ain't nobody got time for that.

On a side note, I would like more scholarships and programs to get more men into nursing and teaching.

yeah because letting people pick their professions would just be too wild

get that "greater good" BS outta here

and lol @ " better solution than having 100 % gender parity across all professions."

I'll give the parity talks a chance when women are lining up to be garbagemen or signing up for the draft

 

[samsunimomo]

yeah because letting people pick their professions would just be too wild

get that "greater good" BS outta here

and lol @ " better solution than having 100 % gender parity across all professions."

I'll give the parity talks a chance when women are lining up to be garbagemen or signing up for the draft

I would love to see more women serve in the armed forces (and in active combat, if need be & qualified), more female plumbers, more female Alaskan fishermen(women?), more male teachers, more male nurses. And I agree with your first sentence: why not actually try to enable any qualified individual to pick their own professions by minimizing any cultural and social obstacles? I mean, market forces and physical differences are always going to lead to some level of disparity (i.e., I'd prefer a female gyn. Is it sexist? Probably.), but culture and attitudes could be changed (i.e. Male gyns understand female bodies as well as female gyns, so it shouldn't really matter who I see), albeit very slowly and never completely surely.

Is this a realistic proposition? Nope, but thinking up a thousand bad solutions that will go nowhere in hopes of landing on one good one is probably better than thinking everything is hunky-dory as is. Absolutely everything sucks at a varying level, but that means anything can always be improved somewhat.

 

[PL198]

signing up for the draft isn't a choice for men in america.

 

[Psai]

I would love to see more women serve in the armed forces (and in active combat, if need be & qualified), more female plumbers, more female Alaskan fishermen(women?), more male teachers, more male nurses. And I agree with your first sentence: why not actually try to enable any qualified individual to pick their own professions by minimizing any cultural and social obstacles? I mean, market forces and physical differences are always going to lead to some level of disparity (i.e., I'd prefer a female gyn. Is it sexist? Probably.), but culture and attitudes could be changed (i.e. Male gyns understand female bodies as well as female gyns, so it shouldn't really matter who I see), albeit very slowly and never completely surely.

Is this a realistic proposition? Nope, but thinking up a thousand bad solutions that will go nowhere in hopes of landing on one good one is probably better than thinking everything is hunky-dory as is. Absolutely everything sucks at a varying level, but that means anything can always be improved somewhat.

you don't know what you're talking about. male gyns were the norm, my school has way more male attendings and female residents. also i've heard multiple comments from patients that the male residents seem to be more gentle with their exams

 

[Jabbed]

I'll give the parity talks a chance when women are lining up to be garbagemen or signing up for the draft

Wut? There is no draft.

 

[PL198]

Wut? There is no draft.

...... lol aren't you a guy and you don't know what selective service is?