ms1 with self-diag BPD seeking career suggestions

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someguy321

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Hey guys so Im an ms1. I've had fairly severe emotional disturbance since early teens. I've had some things happen recently that have driven me to explore my psychological abnormalities and attempt to get help with them. I'm very academically inclined and have been fairly diligent in exploring possible diagnoses on my own. From everything i've read and understand i hands-down, unquestionably have BPD. My issue is, I know i need to seek the help of a professional, but I'm very concerned that being diagnosed with such a disorder will basically screw me as far as residency and licensing goes. My interest is in psychiatry and will most likely be the field i go into due to physical limitations that cross most other specialities off my list of options. I know that not seeking help with this disorder will lead me down the same path of fear and loathing, self-destruction, and all that bull, But im not sure im willing to risk going through the next 3 years, aquiring mass debt, and then be denied based on my diagnosis. I'm also afraid that i'll end up lying on applications anyway. I know any psychiatrist would probably say put your life before your career, but im not asking you as a psychiatrist, im asking you as a rational person with a much greater understanding than I of all the ins and outs of residency application and licensing. I guess a big part of my question is do you know any BPDs that have been licencsed? As an add-on... i understand that it takes a special psych to be able to contain this disorder and i dont even know if theres one worth my time on my ****ty insurance. So another thought is what if I get the diagnosis and then the therapist doesnt help me and im back where i started+the diagnosis. Thanks everyone, ive read a long time and know you all are a compassionate bunch and just hoping for some advice.

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the diagnosis of borderline personality is irrelevant for licensing (assuming you are attempting suicide all the time). you would not need to mention it. it is also irrelevant as far as applying for residencies. the issue is if you really have frank borderline characterology then you should not even consider a career in psychiatry until you actually have the emotional maturity and skills to do so (which by definition if you meet criteria for BPD you do not). quite frankly a truly florid borderline would be a disaster as a psychiatrist. on the other hand if you develop the emotional maturity and ability to mentalize and use healthy defensive maneuvers you might do well. the psychologist marsha linehan who invented DBT, a cognitive behavioral treatment for borderline personality says she has a borderline character herself. personally i wouldn't use insurance and would see a skilled therapist without this on your medical record.

anyway there are lots of borderline docs out there, many are truly frightening. at the very least get the DBT skills manual.
 
personally i wouldn't use insurance and would see a skilled therapist without this on your medical record. .

Im not so sure why some of the people on this board are so paranoid about this.....when you apply for jobs and stuff, employers can't request your medical records from insurance companies. Specifically, what would be concerned about?
 
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Definitely look into Dialectical Behavior Therapy, it's the front line treatment for BPD.
 
Im not so sure why some of the people on this board are so paranoid about this.....when you apply for jobs and stuff, employers can't request your medical records from insurance companies.
It depends on the employer. If you are going for some government jobs, it can be a problem.
 
First, a self diagnosis of BPD may be accurate, it may not. You need a real evaluation to make such a determination.

Second, the DBT model requires a treatment team, and it's unlikely that there are going to be DBT treatment teams taking cash only. The risk of avoiding a treatment because it will show up in a CIA background check is pretty high compared to the stupendous benefit of appropriate treatment. Mental health treatment is medical treatment. Treating it like something else is a tremendous miscalculation.
 
thank you everyone for your input...
Splik: I thought i had seen on a post here about BP disorder a document from a state licensing app that said "ist any current psych diagnosis that you are or are not currently being treated for"... I've also heard from a credible source that someone diagnosed with clinical depression can be held from practicing.. Not questioning your knowledge, but just want to flesh this out a bit if possible. I also totally agree with your comment on my ability to practice, and trust me I want to get better and its not only for my future patients sake.



I will definitely look into DBT for my own interest.

Notdeadyet: can you be more specific on what type of background check can be done in government jobs? Can they just access all of your medical records kept track on insurance from your entire life? Would that include even cash docs where you accurately gave your ssn? and when you say gov jobs are you referring to state hospitals, military, others, or all?

Michael Rack: do you have any good sources where i could read about obamacares effect on access to medical records?

Billypilgrim: I know that im no professional, but everything i read fit me to a disgusting T. Im not positive, but im just trying to get all the facts before setting fourth and having a good probablilty of catching such a diagnoses. At very least im clinically depressed. Is a CIA background check the ame thing that NDY was speaking of? do you have any info on what type of positions these are held for


I get the general drift that residency and licencsing wont be as much of an issue as actual employment... Any comments the the two formers from anyone else in the know?

Also if i had the dough to see a cash therapist i would and probably might have a slip up and fudge my ssn or something, but i dont think i could afford this. I take your DBT team comment to heart as well as mental health being not something to take lightly BillyP, but after dedicating the last 5 years and already being 100k in debt i cant see myself just quitting as well as i cant see myself doing something thats going to F me after ive completed all 4 years and owe a yaught's worth. That might be irrational, but im sure you guys can get me on some level with that. Also i dont think my ins. is going to cover a DBT team anyway(still gotta check though), as well as i dont know if they even have anyone decent on their list.

Thanks again and any and all comments and input are welcome
 
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Is a CIA background check the ame thing that NDY was speaking of? do you have any info on what type of positions these are held for

I mean literally working for the CIA.

My comment re: the self-diagnosis was that lots of folks can go through the criteria for a personality disorder and find that they meet it, though the symptoms may not actually represent a persistent pattern to warrant the a personality disorder diagnosis. You may, I have no idea. But plenty of folks with mood disorders will display characterological states that are exacerbated by mood symptoms. Personality disorders are probably not nearly as static as we are taught.

Basically, I'm saying with proper diagnosis and treatment, the prognosis for someone presenting with mood symptoms and cluster b traits may actually be very good, or at least much better than might be expected from a bpd diagnosis.
 
@OP
Wait, you said BPD, that is borderline personality disorder. Did you actually mean bipolar disorder?
 
It depends on the employer. If you are going for some government jobs, it can be a problem.

what govt jobs are going to subpoena your insurance records to see if a claim has ever been filed with a mental health practioner of any kind? And if they did and it shows you had, what the heck would that even mean? It certainly doesn't mean one was a personality d/o or serious mental illness.....just because at some point they saw someone involved with mental health.

Furthermore, psychiatrists who accept cash pay only don't have a higher privacy or hippa standard than psychiatrists who take insurance. Or a higher or lower standard of mandatory reporting. Standards of care and disclosure are still the same. The fact that there is an insurance record(attached to a providers name and field) is the only difference....if one is so paranoid as to feel that way, I would think they would also be paranoid that word of their visits with their cash pay psychiatrist is somehow going to get out as well.
 
Ok BillyP well that makes me feel a little better about my "self-dx", thanks. Also, are you implying that the only time i'd need to worry about this is if i was gonna work for the cia? haha if i wanted to be a legitamized criminal i woulda just went to law school :p ..

No Jas i mean borderline.

Vis: I dont know if a board or govt job or anyone would try to obtain these records, but if they did wouldnt it show the dx in there as well? As far as the cash doc thing goes, i dont know what others think, but personally i would be inclined to make a mistake when writing my ssn in the paperwork and even if not that it just seems that theres much less of a paper trail if ins. isnt involved which would be assumably safer if in the future laws change in regard to HIPPA and medical professionals
 
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what govt jobs are going to subpoena your insurance records to see if a claim has ever been filed with a mental health practioner of any kind? And if they did and it shows you had, what the heck would that even mean? It certainly doesn't mean one was a personality d/o or serious mental illness.....just because at some point they saw someone involved with mental health.
If you work in the military, for the military, or in any capacity in which you need clearance (those cool state department jobs come to mind), you sign your consent (essentially a type of release of information form) for the government to request information from any past mental or physical health provider to release records. The government does not need to subpoena your records, you give them permission as part of your application process.

As to what it means, it depends on the job. I know for some that you will not get the job if you have had recent mental health treatment for a diagnosis, hospitalizations, or other factors. I'm not supporting this policy, by the way, I'm just saying how it is.

Furthermore, psychiatrists who accept cash pay only don't have a higher privacy or hippa standard than psychiatrists who take insurance. Or a higher or lower standard of mandatory reporting. Standards of care and disclosure are still the same.
Yep. Exactly. The issue with why some folks who work in the military or government prefer cash-only practices is that if the government is going for a security clearance, it would be quite easy to track down someone you went to see if it was paid out by an employer-sponsored insurance vs. someone you paid cash to that you found by referral or via the Internet.
 
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Notdeadyet: can you be more specific on what type of background check can be done in government jobs? Can they just access all of your medical records kept track on insurance from your entire life? Would that include even cash docs where you accurately gave your ssn? and when you say gov jobs are you referring to state hospitals, military, others, or all?
It's going to vary from job to job. For the vast majority of jobs out there, this will not impact you in any way, shape or form. The only time I think folks would have a realistic concern is if they went for a job requiring a security clearance of some kind. For folks who serve in the military, reserve, or national guard, it can be an issue. For folks who serve as civilians on military bases, it can be an issue. For folks who do some military contracts or work for the government in fields requiring security clearances (such as the state department and the like), it can be an issue. I'm sure it is for the CIA or any secret squirrel type gigs, but those are so far and few in between that I wouldn't keep those on my radar.

As I mentioned in the reply to vistaril, if you take one of these jobs, part of the clearance is signing a release of information that allows the government to request records from any past health provider. I can't remember if it has a time stamp on it, but for most background checks like this, the usually limit it to 7-10 years back.

Keep in mind that I really agree with billypilgrim about the issue of not self-diagnosing BPD. Or any other psych issue for that matter. Psychiatrists, psychologists, and medical students are pretty crummy at self-diagnosis for a whole slew of reasons. If you are concerned you have a mental health condition, you should see a professional.

So unless you're one of a small subset of people thinking you're bound for military or government service, it's largely a non-issue.

And even if you are considering that direction, I'd still strongly recommend seeking help. The fact is that while a diagnosis and treatment for a mental health issue may preclude you from 1% of medical jobs, not seeking treatment may cause your mental health to decline to the point that you are not able to succeed in your training, which could preclude you from 100% of medical jobs. When you look at things methodically and logically, I think that a the end of the day you'll find that there is almost never a good reason to not seek help if you need it.
I take your DBT team comment to heart as well as mental health being not something to take lightly BillyP, but after dedicating the last 5 years and already being 100k in debt i cant see myself just quitting as well as i cant see myself doing something thats going to F me after ive completed all 4 years and owe a yaught's worth.
I know this was directed to billypilgrim, but keep in mind that most of us are probably in agreement that untreated mental illness is many times more likely to F you and the work you've done than not treating mental illness.
 
1) Agree with BillyP and NotDeadYet on the importance of getting a proper evaluation.

2) Untreated BPD (or mental illness) is WAY more likely to screw someone up than treated mental illness - even if it does create a paper trail.

3) The most likely thing to give someone with BPD problems would be red flags from acting out, NOT from seeking treatment.

4) I have full medical licenses in two states, and neither asked questions which would have required you to disclose a diagnosis of BPD. Unless you had to explain a red flag - then you may need to disclose.

5) The hospital credentialing process can be much more invasive than the medical licensing process. If it were to come up, I suspect it would come up here. At this point, you've likely already been hired for the position and they would be unlikely to fire someone with a mental health condition (indeed they could NOT do so).

6) You could always tell people you go to psychotherapy because you want to be a psychiatrist and you believe being in therapy yourself will be good for your training. Several of my co-residents are in therapy for this reason.
 
And a SUBSTANTIAL portion of medical students in general have mood or anxiety disorder diagnoses, and this is even a little more common in psychiatry. I would guess around half of all psychiatry residents have been on an SSRI at some point themselves (that's at least true with folks I'm around on a regular basis).
 
Everyone has some small amount of cluster traits whether it be A B or C, but from your post it seems as though you're pretty positive about the ClusterB BPD diagnosis. From your obvious worry and paranoia about the subject and the fact that you researched for long amounts of time to diagnose yourself, I'm going to assume that you are a female (which most BPD patients are). You are only a first year medical student so your knowledge base at this point is nil. Getting adjusted to this new schedule and the rigourous nature of medical school can distort your view of yourself and a lot of medical students tend to over analyze things once they begin to gain knowledge. You aren't a liscensed psychitrist or physician, so #1. You don't have a diagnosis of BPD at this point. and #2 you don't need to be worried about jobs right now, just worry about passing your classes and boards. Most people with BPD do not want to admit that they have a problem, and it's everyone elses fault, so you already have the right mindset that you have "some type" of problem that needs to be addressed. My advice is go speak to your doctor about your concerns and if need be you will be referred to someone who can help. You were able to do well in college and get into medical school so you are a high functioning individual. Don't sell yourself short. Continue to do what you've been doing your whole life, succeeding.
 
And a SUBSTANTIAL portion of medical students in general have mood or anxiety disorder diagnoses, and this is even a little more common in psychiatry. I would guess around half of all psychiatry residents have been on an SSRI at some point themselves (that's at least true with folks I'm around on a regular basis).

Very true. Having a diagnosis or a history of treatment is generally not something that needs to be disclosed aside from the special situations noted above. It's amazing how common misperceptions about this are even in our field.

Anyway, the consequences of having an untreated mental illness that is apparently causing you distress (and could cause future career concerns) are greater than the consequences of having treatment. Having untreated bpd concerns come to light as a resident could potentially be career killing.
 
People miss-diagnosis themselves all the time, especially in medical school. You need a proper eval with a good psychiatrist/psychologist which may take multiple session. If you truly have BPD I would also strongly reccomend treatment.

I have to agree with vistaril. I would have no problem using my residency or student insurance for mental health services if I felt like I needed them. That's what insurance is for and if you aren't going to use it when you need it than it's a complete waste. My understanding was that it would really only have an impact in some govenment jobs as well (not VA), but I could be mistaken so you should consider feedback from the fellows and attendings with more expierence in getting a license and a hospital job.
 
And a SUBSTANTIAL portion of medical students in general have mood or anxiety disorder diagnoses, and this is even a little more common in psychiatry. I would guess around half of all psychiatry residents have been on an SSRI at some point themselves (that's at least true with folks I'm around on a regular basis).

Yep, I just listened to something that said over 40% of medical students have depression, anxiety, or mood disorders.

FWIW I was in the military and held a top secret clearance. There were literally TONS of military intelligence soldiers who had been in drug rehab or diagnosed with a psychiatric condition in the past. Hell, my room mate in training was a diagnosed schizophrenic! He later explained to me that they misdiagnosed him because he had been binging on cocaine and not sleeping. Either way, the recruiters instruct you to just say "NO!" to any questions regarding questionable aspects of your past. If they actually went through the trouble of tracking down and digging through everyone's old medical records then over 1/4 of us never would have received out top secret clearances.

A good portion of people who go into the military have F'd up something in their lives. Those of us in military intelligence are just F ups with high test scores.

Also, I just spent about 5 minutes trying to track down a YouTube video that I hope will motivate you. This guy was hospitalized numerous times, and is a diagnosed schizophrenic--HE IS ALSO A PSYCHIATRIST--HE DID HIS RESIDENCY AT HARVARD!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOlIxIO4NoM
 
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I know this was directed to billypilgrim, but keep in mind that most of us are probably in agreement that untreated mental illness is many times more likely to F you and the work you've done than not treating mental illness.

Well this hit home pretty hard NDY, i appreciate you and everyone else who agreed. I'm being very shortsighted and irrational about this.

Also I don't have any desire to work for the military so that doesn't really bother me.

BoBA: "The hospital credentialing process can be much more invasive than the medical licensing process. "
-so wouldnt this include applying for residency as well?

"You could always tell people you go to psychotherapy because you want to be a psychiatrist and you believe being in therapy yourself will be good for your training. Several of my co-residents are in therapy for this reason. "
-Thats a great suggestion, thanks

Benilius - Thanks for your words of encouragemnt and comments. Maybe i just misread it but "From your obvious worry and paranoia about the subject and the fact that you researched for long amounts of time to diagnose yourself, I'm going to assume that you are a female" this comes off kinda bad, especially when sex doesnt have anything to do w anything here. But, thanks for your input.

Aleister - haha well thanks i appreciate you sharing your experience. That video is very inspiring and i appreciate you showing me it. Why did you decide to switch careers if you dont mind me asking?
 
5) The hospital credentialing process can be much more invasive than the medical licensing process. If it were to come up, I suspect it would come up here. At this point, you've likely already been hired for the position and they would be unlikely to fire someone with a mental health condition (indeed they could NOT do so).

.

I have credentialled at many hospitals and have had direct employment at 2 state psychiatric hospitals.

When you apply to work directly for a hospital, there are 2 apps: 1) standard employment app and 2) application for privileges. Standard legal rights don't apply to #2. Offers of employment can be withdrawn if you are denied privileges.

That being said, many docs have a history of depression/anxiety and a past history of these isn't going to block employment. Current use of SSRI's usually aren't a problem. Current use of benzo's would throw up a red flag. The diagnosis of borderline personality disorder has a huge stigma and might cause problems... if the hospital found out about it.
 
Latest CIA salary quote on their website is $127, 000. To top it off, you might find yourself wandering around in unsafe territory in the Middle East or Southeast Asia.

I mean literally working for the CIA.

My comment re: the self-diagnosis was that lots of folks can go through the criteria for a personality disorder and find that they meet it, though the symptoms may not actually represent a persistent pattern to warrant the a personality disorder diagnosis. You may, I have no idea. But plenty of folks with mood disorders will display characterological states that are exacerbated by mood symptoms. Personality disorders are probably not nearly as static as we are taught.

Basically, I'm saying with proper diagnosis and treatment, the prognosis for someone presenting with mood symptoms and cluster b traits may actually be very good, or at least much better than might be expected from a bpd diagnosis.
 
The diagnosis of borderline personality disorder has a huge stigma and might cause problems... if the hospital found out about it.
Thanks Michael... this was more of the answer i was expecting to get.. The app for priveleges is based only on what one reveals I'm taking it though?
 
Maybe you're jumping the gun a bit? First, the DSM is about to change. I think borderline will still be in there but it might look a little different. Second, if I had a penny for every psychiatrist I work with who has a bona fide PD, I'd no longer have to work with them because I'd be vacationing in the Swiss Alps year round on all that $$$. So you won't be alone. Third, you're a MSI. You could have medical student syndrome. Fourth, it's unlikely that even if you go and get a Cadillac of a psych evaluation you're going to walk away with something so clear as "BPD." More likely it will be: "Mood d/o NOS r/o Cluster B traits." Indeed you shouldn't even be dx'd with BPD on a first visit. Only rarely does it really make it into the chart. But honestly unless you have a full fledged textbook case of catatonic schizophrenia, you could challenge almost any psych diagnosis anyone anywhere might ever give you. Later you could say, "look see I got a second opinion--I don't have BPD."

Therapy is less stigmatized than taking medications. Now if you've had 10 suicide attempts in the last 2 years and tons of admissions, that's different.

I also think the stigma against anything Axis II is worse in psychiatry than it might be in other specialties. I see attendings and residents who are downright mean when the topic of Cluster B even gets mentioned. There's a tendency to see it everywhere.
 
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Therapy is less stigmatized than taking medications. Now if you've had 10 suicide attempts in the last 2 years and tons of admissions, that's different..[/QUOTE]

Agreed....psychiatric diagnosis is so inconsistent from one provider to another that it is almost meaningless. It *may* give me some hint as to whether or not the person was suspected of having a mood d/o, psychotic d/o, or anxiety d/o...but then again maybe not.

I had a psychiatrist I like tell me last week(only half jokingly) "you know, you used to be able to look at a med list and have a good idea what the dx is. Now, not so much. Because we are using all the same meds for every disorder." And my gosh it's true....I know I've certainly seen every class of medication for a dysthymic pt with a personality d/o flare several times- an AD because they are depressed, a mood stabilizer because they are so irritable and labile and impulsive, an atypical for 'ego glue', a benzo of course...always a benzo, and then a stimulant as depression augmentation(after all they just sleep all day and have no energy)....
 
Agreed....psychiatric diagnosis is so inconsistent from one provider to another that it is almost meaningless. It *may* give me some hint as to whether or not the person was suspected of having a mood d/o, psychotic d/o, or anxiety d/o...but then again maybe not. .

More often than not I think psych diagnoses give an indication as to what's wrong with the doctor who made the dx. Like I know this one attending, who diagnoses "anxiety" in every single patient, the reason being that they may drink coffee, and he doesn't. The patient could be complaining of chest pain radiating to the left arm and the jaw with diaphoresis, SOB, a solid smoking history, nitroglycerin in their chart, 3 stents and uncontrolled DM but if this attending hears "coffee" you're not going to get any farther. You've immediately bought a lecture about sleep hygiene and the evils of caffeine, a dx of GAD +/- panic d/o, and a script for Zoloft.

I had a psychiatrist I like tell me last week(only half jokingly) "you know, you used to be able to look at a med list and have a good idea what the dx is. Now, not so much. Because we are using all the same meds for every disorder." And my gosh it's true....I know I've certainly seen every class of medication for a dysthymic pt with a personality d/o flare several times- an AD because they are depressed, a mood stabilizer because they are so irritable and labile and impulsive, an atypical for 'ego glue', a benzo of course...always a benzo, and then a stimulant as depression augmentation(after all they just sleep all day and have no energy)....

This is so true! Except at my program, we are almost not allowed to use benzos, and I can count on one hand how many patients I've seen (let alone continued) on stimulants. (Although if I was out in the community this would differ a bit). Our city is pretty much America's Xanax capital, and a lot of attendings and residents are really paranoid about prescribing even 1 mg of any benzo, once, ever, for any cause, in any patient, no exceptions. Instead they are enamored with atarax, which, I don't know what that medication does but I really don't feel like you need a medical degree and residency training to prescribe something which is basically just a cousin of benadryl which the patients can actually buy and dose for themselves OTC.

But anyway take the combo of Seroquel + Zoloft. Or Abilify + Prozac. Now what does that tell you? It should tell you schizoaffective d/o and only schizoaffective because you have an antipsychotic and an antidepressant, but actually it could be anything from GAD to some impulse control disorder to bipolar to schizophrenia to malingering to insomnia to OCD to an eating disorder to Axis II to some weird pain regimen to a sleep disorder to a paraphilia.

And of course the mood stabilizer for "irritability." And then there is Neurontin, which you can give to anyone, anywhere at anytime for any condition.
 
More often than not I think psych diagnoses give an indication as to what's wrong with the doctor who made the dx. Like I know this one attending, who diagnoses "anxiety" in every single patient, the reason being that they may drink coffee, and he doesn't. The patient could be complaining of chest pain radiating to the left arm and the jaw with diaphoresis, SOB, a solid smoking history, nitroglycerin in their chart, 3 stents and uncontrolled DM but if this attending hears "coffee" you're not going to get any farther. You've immediately bought a lecture about sleep hygiene and the evils of caffeine, a dx of GAD +/- panic d/o, and a script for Zoloft.



This is so true! Except at my program, we are almost not allowed to use benzos, and I can count on one hand how many patients I've seen (let alone continued) on stimulants. (Although if I was out in the community this would differ a bit). Our city is pretty much America's Xanax capital, and a lot of attendings and residents are really paranoid about prescribing even 1 mg of any benzo, once, ever, for any cause, in any patient, no exceptions. Instead they are enamored with atarax, which, I don't know what that medication does but I really don't feel like you need a medical degree and residency training to prescribe something which is basically just a cousin of benadryl which the patients can actually buy and dose for themselves OTC.

But anyway take the combo of Seroquel + Zoloft. Or Abilify + Prozac. Now what does that tell you? It should tell you schizoaffective d/o and only schizoaffective because you have an antipsychotic and an antidepressant, but actually it could be anything from GAD to some impulse control disorder to bipolar to schizophrenia to malingering to insomnia to OCD to an eating disorder to Axis II to some weird pain regimen to a sleep disorder to a paraphilia.

And of course the mood stabilizer for "irritability." And then there is Neurontin, which you can give to anyone, anywhere at anytime for any condition.

It's too bad you don't get much experience with benzodiazepines. If used appropriately, i.e. short term for most patients, they work quite well. You can use them to ease the suffering of your patients while the SRI kicks in or while they get engaged in a psychotherapeutic process that hopefully reduces their symptoms.

I feel the same way about psychostimulants. New York Times articles notwithstanding, there is clearly a place for psychostimulants in psychiatric practice, and if used judiciously, they can be a life-changer for patients.

Atarax is hydroxyzine. The other brand name is Vistaril.

With respect to the combination of SRI and antipsychotic, meaningful information can be gleaned about the diagnosis based on the dose of the medication.

Low dose antipsychotic (particularly Abilify) with normal-high dose SRI is likely major depression.
Normal dose antipsychotic with normal dose SRI is likely schizoaffective, depressive type.
Normal dose antipsychotic with very high dose SRI is likely OCD.
SRIs don't really have a place in schizophrenia.
Antipsychotic plus anticonvulsant plus SRI/SNRI is almost always bipolar or badly managed borderline personality disorder.

Try looking at the doses and see what they tell you. There's a lot of information out there.

Psychiatric diagnosis is terrible, I give you that. Psychopharm is pretty crappy too, and polypharmacy is pretty out of control in many cases.

Polypsychopharm can be done in a rational fashion, however. For instance, it's reasonable to consider whether an additional agent has a discrete mechanism of action and the potential to provide additional clinical benefit.
Example, 2 SSRIs is pretty stupid. 1 SSRI and 1 SNRI is a little less stupid. 1 SSRI and Wellbutrin makes sense. 1 SNRI and Wellbutrin makes even more sense because it approximates the effect of an MAOI but with fewer side effects and no dietary restrictions. SNRI plus Wellbutrin plus atypical antidepressant like mirtazapine or nefazodone is complicated, but is rational and has been demonstrated to have efficacy that is equivalent/superior to MAOI. MAOI plus lithium plus a dopamine agonist like pramipexole even is at least rational for some patients. Add good psychotherapy to any of the latter regimens and you may have a decent shot at helping a person with severe and treatment-resistant depression.
 
Interestingly, I don't see a ton of this sort of thing, because the local insurances have started requiring prior authorizations every time my patient sneezes.

Last month, a friend of mine was seriously told he had to do a prior auth to cross-taper some from celexa to zoloft, because the patient would be on "two antidepressants at once." No ****, sherlock. Of course, he didn't do it, and just told the patient to go pay the two bucks for the two weeks of celexa or whatever he needed. I've been told to do prior auths for risperdal for psychotic depression, and I just sent the patient to Costco to buy it for 12 bucks a month. ANY time we prescribe a 1mg tablet of risperdal for any indication, we have to do a prior auth (like, if you're just starting it as an outpatient for psychosis, bipolar, whatever), because they "don't want you using it as a sleeper." You can get around this by prescribing the 2mg tablets and having patients cut them in half--that doesn't require a PA. I guess that's just as well, because you're going to be increasing to 2mg soon enough anyway.

I'm pretty sure I can't get Seroquel approved for just about any indication without a prior authorization and documentation of failing risperdal. Occasionally I do see this coming through the ED for folks with private insurance from just out of town, but never for my folks. The only times I've ever prescribed Seroquel for anxiety was on C/L with little old ladies who were on a ventilator. That was a scenario that kept coming up.

Starting at the first of the year, the same companies have started needing PAs for folks over the age of 18 for stimulants for any indication. Given that I inherited some adults in a moonlighting gig on stimulants (usually low doses and zero signs of abuse) that I probably wouldn't have started myself, it's become a convenient way to duck out of prescribing them without causing any fuss.

So, at least in my area, the insurance companies "do me the favor" of completely tying my hands behind my back when it comes to cowboy off-label prescribing. I'm not as appreciative as they might want me to be.
 
Interestingly, I don't see a ton of this sort of thing, because the local insurances have started requiring prior authorizations every time my patient sneezes.

Last month, a friend of mine was seriously told he had to do a prior auth to cross-taper some from celexa to zoloft, because the patient would be on "two antidepressants at once." No ****, sherlock. Of course, he didn't do it, and just told the patient to go pay the two bucks for the two weeks of celexa or whatever he needed. I've been told to do prior auths for risperdal for psychotic depression, and I just sent the patient to Costco to buy it for 12 bucks a month. ANY time we prescribe a 1mg tablet of risperdal for any indication, we have to do a prior auth (like, if you're just starting it as an outpatient for psychosis, bipolar, whatever), because they "don't want you using it as a sleeper." You can get around this by prescribing the 2mg tablets and having patients cut them in half--that doesn't require a PA. I guess that's just as well, because you're going to be increasing to 2mg soon enough anyway.

I'm pretty sure I can't get Seroquel approved for just about any indication without a prior authorization and documentation of failing risperdal. Occasionally I do see this coming through the ED for folks with private insurance from just out of town, but never for my folks. The only times I've ever prescribed Seroquel for anxiety was on C/L with little old ladies who were on a ventilator. That was a scenario that kept coming up.

Starting at the first of the year, the same companies have started needing PAs for folks over the age of 18 for stimulants for any indication. Given that I inherited some adults in a moonlighting gig on stimulants (usually low doses and zero signs of abuse) that I probably wouldn't have started myself, it's become a convenient way to duck out of prescribing them without causing any fuss.

So, at least in my area, the insurance companies "do me the favor" of completely tying my hands behind my back when it comes to cowboy off-label prescribing. I'm not as appreciative as they might want me to be.

Thank God we don't live under Government-controlled Health Care! :rolleyes:
 
It's too bad you don't get much experience with benzodiazepines. If used appropriately, i.e. short term for most patients, they work quite well. You can use them to ease the suffering of your patients while the SRI kicks in or while they get engaged in a psychotherapeutic process that hopefully reduces their symptoms.

I feel the same way about psychostimulants. New York Times articles notwithstanding, there is clearly a place for psychostimulants in psychiatric practice, and if used judiciously, they can be a life-changer for patients.

Atarax is hydroxyzine. The other brand name is Vistaril.

With respect to the combination of SRI and antipsychotic, meaningful information can be gleaned about the diagnosis based on the dose of the medication.

Low dose antipsychotic (particularly Abilify) with normal-high dose SRI is likely major depression.
Normal dose antipsychotic with normal dose SRI is likely schizoaffective, depressive type.
Normal dose antipsychotic with very high dose SRI is likely OCD.
SRIs don't really have a place in schizophrenia.
Antipsychotic plus anticonvulsant plus SRI/SNRI is almost always bipolar or badly managed borderline personality disorder.

Try looking at the doses and see what they tell you. There's a lot of information out there.

Psychiatric diagnosis is terrible, I give you that. Psychopharm is pretty crappy too, and polypharmacy is pretty out of control in many cases.

Polypsychopharm can be done in a rational fashion, however. For instance, it's reasonable to consider whether an additional agent has a discrete mechanism of action and the potential to provide additional clinical benefit.
Example, 2 SSRIs is pretty stupid. 1 SSRI and 1 SNRI is a little less stupid. 1 SSRI and Wellbutrin makes sense. 1 SNRI and Wellbutrin makes even more sense because it approximates the effect of an MAOI but with fewer side effects and no dietary restrictions. SNRI plus Wellbutrin plus atypical antidepressant like mirtazapine or nefazodone is complicated, but is rational and has been demonstrated to have efficacy that is equivalent/superior to MAOI. MAOI plus lithium plus a dopamine agonist like pramipexole even is at least rational for some patients. Add good psychotherapy to any of the latter regimens and you may have a decent shot at helping a person with severe and treatment-resistant depression.


I'm pretty sure nancy sinatra knows a lot of this(she's a fourth year psych resident...of course she knows what vistaril is)....I took her post to be more of a sarcastic jab at prescribing practices.

As for 'experience with benzos', it's not complicated to the point that one needs a lot of experience. There is nothing subtle there. A good intern is generally comfortable with using benzos for differerent indications. Quite frankly if someone is still gaining more knowledge in that area by their third year, I'd argue that they woefully behind the curve early in their training.

And of course psychostimulants can be great. Nobody disputes that. The question is how great can they be for 25 year olds with no childhood hx of adhd of any kind whatsoever. Because that's a large number of the people getting them in outpt psych practices across the country.

As for polypharmacy for different indications, of course the dose gives you a hint about the dx. I don't think even the worst family medicine intern in the world sees someone on 0.5mg of Risperdal and thinks that is a therapeutic dose for a young male with disorganized schizophrenia(whatever that is). The problem is that the evidence based medicine for much of this practice is very weak. We all know it's common to see dysthymic patients on an AD and 2mg of abilify.....what we should know(but many either don't or don't want to accept) is that the evidence for that therapy being useful is very very weak.
 
Back to the poster's original question, I am curious about how any diagnosed mental illness from bpd to bipolar, when properly treated and managed, would have an impact on med licensing. I apologize if this was already answered, but don't licensing applications ask things like "Have you ever been diagnosed with an emotional, mental, or behavioral disorder that may impair your ability to practice medicine safely?" (to take from the CA application). What happens if someone was to be honest and say yes? I do see though that there are many states out there that do not ask, so maybe just applying there is the best option?
 
Back to the poster's original question, I am curious about how any diagnosed mental illness from bpd to bipolar, when properly treated and managed, would have an impact on med licensing. I apologize if this was already answered, but don't licensing applications ask things like "Have you ever been diagnosed with an emotional, mental, or behavioral disorder that may impair your ability to practice medicine safely?" (to take from the CA application). What happens if someone was to be honest and say yes? I do see though that there are many states out there that do not ask, so maybe just applying there is the best option?

The phrasing varies. Some ask if you have ever been diagnosed with schizophrenia, bipolar d/o, or any psychotic illness.

If someone answers yes, the board fully investigates the situation before granting a license.
 
And if it's axis I and the person has a documented history of taking their meds and staying out of the hospital - or axis II and commits to therapy, shows documented improvement and stays out of the hospital... would they usually survive the investigation to get a license? Or are people just not honest about it? I'm just curious if people actually get through the process having had some sort of serious mental illness in the past.
 
Something doesn't seem right. I don't understand how someone with untreated BPD and "physical limitations" can be attending med school and doing just fine. People with untreated anx or depression (or even "treated" BPD) still struggle, so this make me think that either you have an IQ that's off the charts or else you don't really have BPD. You really need to get diagnosed properly and take it from there.
 
And if it's axis I and the person has a documented history of taking their meds and staying out of the hospital - or axis II and commits to therapy, shows documented improvement and stays out of the hospital... would they usually survive the investigation to get a license? Or are people just not honest about it? I'm just curious if people actually get through the process having had some sort of serious mental illness in the past.

It varies from state to state, but my general impression is that most docs survive the investigation and get a license- though I imagine that a diagnosis of schizophrenia would get a lot of scrutiny. BiPolar is going to take a lot of paperwork and possibly some monitoring. Routine depression/anxiety is ok (and not all apps ask about these).
 
BiPolar is going to take a lot of paperwork and possibly some monitoring.

What if it the person was misdiagnosed? I know that never happens, but I'm just curious. Could they file a lawsuit against someone if they could prove they were misdiagnosed and it held up their getting a license?
 
It varies from state to state, but my general impression is that most docs survive the investigation and get a license- though I imagine that a diagnosis of schizophrenia would get a lot of scrutiny. BiPolar is going to take a lot of paperwork and possibly some monitoring. Routine depression/anxiety is ok (and not all apps ask about these).

Kurt Vonnegut's kid had schizophrenia and became a doc (peds I believe).

http://www.amazon.com/The-Eden-Express-Memoir-Insanity/dp/1583225439

On my shelf of books waiting to be read, gathering dust in the mental void that is 4th year of medical school.
 
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