MS4 pumping on rotation

[baya]

Okay, so I'm posting this right after reading the thread about Dr. Currier wanting extra time for her step to pump, despite all the extra accommodations she's getting for her disabilities.

So what I want to know is, how would residents, attendings, and fellow students view an MS4 who pumps for 1/2 hour q3 hours while on a rotation. Assume there is no OR time in the rotation, and that she has no disabilities, and asks for nothing special other than time to pump. Assume that the rest of the time she seems smart, friendly, and eager to see patients. Assume that she obviously finds time to read somehow and is a contributing team member... when she's not pumping.

Would her taking time off during the day to pump be likely to lower your opinion of her and therefore affect the eval you write?

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[cbass1350]

I had someone on my peds sub I rotation that fit the same exact profile you describe. She did fine in her rotation and was not singled out at any time. I find it unlikely that doctors, out of all professions, would be uncomfortable with this.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Okay, so I'm posting this right after reading the thread about Dr. Currier wanting extra time for her step to pump, despite all the extra accommodations she's getting for her disabilities.

So what I want to know is, how would residents, attendings, and fellow students view an MS4 who pumps for 1/2 hour q3 hours while on a rotation. Assume there is no OR time in the rotation, and that she has no disabilities, and asks for nothing special other than time to pump. Assume that the rest of the time she seems smart, friendly, and eager to see patients. Assume that she obviously finds time to read somehow and is a contributing team member... when she's not pumping.

Would her taking time off during the day to pump be likely to lower your opinion of her and therefore affect the eval you write?

As long as said teammate was pulling her weight, I'd be totally fine with it. I would think that she could probably get things done while pumping (writing notes, discharge summaries, or reading up on patients), and be willing to return pages during that time if anything were needed urgently.

I really do think the medical profession needs to recognize that physicians have lives. We can't advocate "Breast is best" and then refuse to accommodate female physicians who want to pump.

 

[Anka]

My guess is it will depend greatly on what rotation the person is on, as well as the general environment she's in. Unfortunately, this is one of those things where the administration may well say "yes, of course it's okay" and the residents and individual attendings wouldn't be able to say anything... but it might come out in evaluations (but never directly).

If I were to speculate, it would be more accepted on pediatrics than, say, surgery. More accepted on the West Coast than one of the more traditional east coast schools. It would be more accepted if the woman said she wanted to go into a family friendly specialty like pediatrics rather than representing herself as a future neurosurgeon.

All of that said, it would never be likely to come to actually failing the rotation... maybe she gets a high pass or a pass rather than honors. And should it really matter if you're that set on breast feeding your child?

Best,
Anka

 

[Tired]

So what I want to know is, how would residents, attendings, and fellow students view an MS4 who pumps for 1/2 hour q3 hours while on a rotation.

I had several classmates who pumped on rotations. It was never an issue.

I don't recall it being q3hrs though.

 

[montessori2md]

Seems like if one would be pumping, you'd know in advance, and since most
M4s get some control over their schedule, you'd be able to ask well in advance and change your schedule if it didn't work for them.

Agree that every 3 hrs probably is a bit much, and that it seems like that would be hard to do if in surgery. Even with that whisperwear thing On the other hand, surgical rotations in your last trimester wouldn't be a picnic either.

My question is, if pumping as an M4, wouldn't you end up interviewing either very pregnant or pumping during interview days? I'd be more concerned about interviews than the day-to-day -take the baby with you across the country? Fly in your last trimester? Also, it would make it more difficult to do an away rotation at locations you were interested in for residency. But if planning on staying local, maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

 

[SoCuteMD]

And should it really matter if you're that set on breast feeding your child?

Should a woman who is pulling her weight as a team member but also trying to do what's best for her family/child have to sacrifice one for the other?

 

[hale-bopp]

Should a woman who is pulling her weight as a team member but also trying to do what's best for her family/child have to sacrifice one for the other?

sometimes you can't do everything. and I do think that this is the sort of thing that the administration might say is fine, and if you had a pissy resident, you might get downgraded for, under a different name (because if they acknowleged it was because you were breastfeeding, that would be grounds for a lawsuit). it's the way things are, and you have to decide what your priorities are, and if they're some pissy/egomaniacal resident instead of your family, that's messed up. it sucks that anyone could be put in that position.

wait I just saw you're an MS IV - at this point, who cares?? no one's going to see your grades, they won't be in your dean's letter, or your transcript when it's sent to programs. take care of your family and enjoy your personal life and be a happy, healthy, normal human being, and make sure you go to a family-friendly residency program.

 

[baya]

As long as said teammate was pulling her weight, I'd be totally fine with it. I would think that she could probably get things done while pumping (writing notes, discharge summaries, or reading up on patients), and be willing to return pages during that time if anything were needed urgently.

That's an excellent point, and seems totally doable so long as there's a reasonable location for it. (Probably can't write notes in the bathroom very well, and sometimes that's the only private place available, I hear.)

My guess is it will depend greatly on what rotation the person is on, as well as the general environment she's in. Unfortunately, this is one of those things where the administration may well say "yes, of course it's okay" and the residents and individual attendings wouldn't be able to say anything... but it might come out in evaluations (but never directly).

See, that's is what I'm afraid of... Don't want a sub-I eval ruined that way...

Seems like if one would be pumping, you'd know in advance, and since most
M4s get some control over their schedule, you'd be able to ask well in advance and change your schedule if it didn't work for them.

Well, I could ask the clerkship director ahead of time, but often you don't know ahead of time who you'll actually be working with and therefore who would write the evals, so I don't think that solves much...

Agree that every 3 hrs probably is a bit much, and that it seems like that would be hard to do if in surgery. Even with that whisperwear thing On the other hand, surgical rotations in your last trimester wouldn't be a picnic either.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I (dropping that hypothetical 'she' -- yes, this is me) need to pump q3, or q4 at most least milk leak through the pads and make unsightly damp spots on that otherwise oh-so-flattering short white coat. Not all nursing boobs are made alike.

Let's also assume no surgery rotations.

My question is, if pumping as an M4, wouldn't you end up interviewing either very pregnant or pumping during interview days? I'd be more concerned about interviews than the day-to-day -take the baby with you across the country? Fly in your last trimester? Also, it would make it more difficult to do an away rotation at locations you were interested in for residency. But if planning on staying local, maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Nah, did 3rd yr preggers, am taking time off before 4th yr, so won't be interviewing for a while. Want to breastfeed for a while, and this issue is one of many that are informing my choice about 6 mo vs 12 mo off.

 

[BabyBop]

I would think that she could probably get things done while pumping (writing notes, discharge summaries, or reading up on patients), and be willing to return pages during that time if anything were needed urgently.

That's an excellent point, and seems totally doable so long as there's a reasonable location for it. (Probably can't write notes in the bathroom very well, and sometimes that's the only private place available, I hear.).

Would have said no, not doable since you need both hands to hold the bottles, but I recently found out about the hands-free bra (that you can use with any pump) or the Whisperwear pump which fits in your regular bra, so I guess it can be done. I haven't used either so I can't say for sure.

You will need a private place though (especially if you're not using the Whisperwear) and using the restroom (in a hospital, no less) to pump milk for your baby is just nasty. If you won't eat food in a restroom yourself, don't pump in there. Classmates of mine have been successful at asking to use attendings' offices to pump. Much better!

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I (dropping that hypothetical 'she' -- yes, this is me) need to pump q3, or q4 at most lest milk leak through the pads and make unsightly damp spots on that otherwise oh-so-flattering short white coat. Not all nursing boobs are made alike. Want to breastfeed for a while, and this issue is one of many that are informing my choice about 6 mo vs 12 mo off.

You won't need to pump that much by the time your baby is on solids. You also won't leak nearly as much after 2-3 months, so you can get 1-2 hours past your normal feeding time without leaking. You will get uncomfortable though, and in frank pain if you go any longer than that.

Good luck! Enjoy your baby!!!

 

[lilnoelle]

And don't forget, you can always use pads to prevent leaks from being visible. I never went anywhere without having pads in.

 

[baya]

And don't forget, you can always use pads to prevent leaks from being visible. I never went anywhere without having pads in.

Yeah, I always have pads in. But they don't prevent leaks being visible, they only delay it...

 

[H_Caulfield]

I think if you decide to have a baby during medical school you deserve to get smacked with a few less-than-perfect evaluations. Sort of like if I decided to try and read (and finish) Atlas Shrugged or War and Peace during exam week. It would be pretty ridiculous, I think, for me to knowingly detract from my ability to do my job well and then to expect nothing unfortunate to come of it.

Should you get time off with no consequence just because you decided to have a baby at an awful time? I don't think so. Also, thanks for making a thread to gross everyone out.

 

[baya]

I think if you decide to have a baby during medical school you deserve to get smacked with a few less-than-perfect evaluations. Sort of like if I decided to try and read (and finish) Atlas Shrugged or War and Peace during exam week. It would be pretty ridiculous, I think, for me to knowingly detract from my ability to do my job well and then to expect nothing unfortunate to come of it.


Should you get time off with no consequence just because you decided to have a baby at an awful time? I don't think so.

An interesting, if not quite logical or helpful, attitude. But nice to know it exists, so thanks for sharing. Personally, I would think the fact that I'm delaying graduating (and therefore real salary making) by a year might fill your need for me to suffer. No? If not, why not?

We don't really need to get into the 'best time to have a baby' debate, at least not on my account, since it's a done deal for me. But I do rather think it was the best option, and wouldn't call it 'awful'. To each his own, of course.

Also, thanks for making a thread to gross everyone out.

Again, fascinating. Really, the idea of breastfeeding disgusts you? Why, do you suppose? You should probably get that little neurosis checked out. And pray tell, what field are you going into, with such delicate sensibilities?


Does this gross out anyone else? I'm honestly intrigued.

 

[lilnoelle]

Yeah, I always have pads in. But they don't prevent leaks being visible, they only delay it...

Hmmm, do you use cloth or the type that you can throw away? The only times I ever leaked through my pads was at night and I used the throw away kind.

I think it would be difficult to pump during a rotation, although maybe a bit easier in 4th year. I'm not in my clinical rotations yet, but I had my babies while I was working. My first was when I was working as a fast food manager, and although my boss told me I could pump when I needed to, actually doing it was a different story. I'd get frustrated because she'd get angry at me since I wasn't available at what she thought was inopportune times, but there really was no good time to pump. I purchased a set of the whisperwear pumps and they didn't really work for me.

 

[baya]

Also, thanks for making a thread to gross everyone out.

Okay, I've come up with some theories about why this grosses you out. Tell me if any of these are correct:

1) Breastfeeding involves the breasts. Breasts are often related to sexual desire, which is inherently evil in your universe. Therefore anything related to breasts is disgusting to you. Yes, no, maybe?

2) Breast milk is a bodily fluid. All the other bodily fluids you know of are disgusting to you, so this one must be also. (This idea sort of assumes that you've never actually encountered breast milk, and therefore think it's stinky or toxic or bacteria-laden like some of our other bodily fluids.) If this is it, please do tell: do you drink cows milk (you know, the stuff in cartons at the store), or did you when you were younger? Does it gross you out when you go past the dairy isle in the supermarket? Or does that not count because it comes from an animal and has been pasteurized?

3) Or maybe it's not the breastfeeding - maybe it's the pumping! Let's see...breast milk was meant to go straight from nipple to baby, so a machine in the middle is an abomination against nature and therefore disgusting. How's that?



Please do enlighten me. I'm finding the concept of a physician disgusted by breastfeeding pretty darn amusing, but I should probably stop trying to figure you out.

 

[baya]

Hmmm, do you use cloth or the type that you can throw away? The only times I ever leaked through my pads was at night and I used the throw away kind.

I think it would be difficult to pump during a rotation, although maybe a bit easier in 4th year. I'm not in my clinical rotations yet, but I had my babies while I was working. My first was when I was working as a fast food manager, and although my boss told me I could pump when I needed to, actually doing it was a different story. I'd get frustrated because she'd get angry at me since I wasn't available at what she thought was inopportune times, but there really was no good time to pump. I purchased a set of the whisperwear pumps and they didn't really work for me.

I use the cloth kind, and used disposables before I got the cloth ones. I've definitely leaked through both kinds many times, and not just at night. Happily, it does seem to be decreasing with time, so maybe this part of the issue will resolve itself.

Your story with your boss definitely sounds like something that could happen on rotations.

Good to hear a report on the whisperwear pumps. Were they just ineffective in getting the milk out, or was there some other issue? I've currently rented a Medela Classic, and was thinking of getting a Pump in Style for rotations. And yeah, that hands-free bra looks utterly (no pun intended) ridiculous, but is a fantastic tool. I wouldn't ever want to pump without it.

 

[H_Caulfield]

1) Breastfeeding involves the breasts. Breasts are often related to sexual desire, which is inherently evil in your universe. Therefore anything related to breasts is disgusting to you. Yes, no, maybe?

Hmm..if you think it's a swollen, hanging, leaky nipple that us men are generally attracted to...you're a little off the mark. While it's true that men normally like breasts, pregnancy would be one of those rare exceptions. So in answer to "yes, no, maybe?" the answer would be "no."

Surprised you're so amazed at all this. You haven't even noticed the Y-chromosome-bearing half of the class turning pale and swallowing their vomit during the entirety of the OB/Gyn weeks?

 

[baya]

Hmm..if you think it's a swollen, hanging, leaky nipple that us men are generally attracted to...you're a little off the mark. While it's true that men normally like breasts, pregnancy would be one of those rare exceptions. So in answer to "yes, no, maybe?" the answer would be "no."

Confusing pregnancy with lactation? (In pregnancy they just grow a little, which almost all guys usually like okay.)

That aside, I think what you're saying is that you find the mental image of a pair of lactating breasts disgusting, on purely asthetic grounds. yes?
How many such pairs have you seen anyway? Or maybe it's just how they look in your imagination?

Some men actually think lactation's hot, which is also fascinating.

My own suspicion is that anyone with a strong reaction to the idea of lactation (either being turned on or grossed out) has some interesting psychological baggage that they would do well to process prior to treating patients.

Surprised you're so amazed at all this. You haven't even noticed the Y-chromosome-bearing half of the class turning pale and swallowing their vomit during the entirety of the OB/Gyn weeks?

Nope. A few, but definitely the minority. (And I thought it had more to do with NSVDs than lactation.) And then there were the male OB/GYN residents... (about 50/50, btw)... definitely not grossed out by their chosen profession either.

So sorry, I don't think it's entirely the fault of your Y chromosome that this issue troubles you.

 

[45408]

Yeah, I always have pads in. But they don't prevent leaks being visible, they only delay it...

makes me think of that Grey's scene with Bailey....

 

[baya]

makes me think of that Grey's scene with Bailey....

Don't think I've seen it -- please do share.

 

[Anka]

Should a woman who is pulling her weight as a team member but also trying to do what's best for her family/child have to sacrifice one for the other?

Should she? No, of course not. Does that mean she won't? No guarantees... even if the administration is on your side. That's all I was saying. If it's important to you, you take the necessary risk, in this as in all things.

 

[baya]

Should she? No, of course not. Does that mean she won't? No guarantees... even if the administration is on your side. That's all I was saying. If it's important to you, you take the necessary risk, in this as in all things.

Or I could take the extra 6 months off (which wouldn't affect residency, since I'm already taking 6 mos off) and play it safe. There's a number of factors in my situation that make each option appealing in different ways, so this is just one more consideration.

Thanks for all the input!

 

[Blade28]

Usually we give the med students INFINITELY more leeway than a fellow resident.

 

[baya]

Usually we give the med students INFINITELY more leeway than a fellow resident.

Good to know. And not wanting to inconvenience fellow residents when I am one was definitely part of why I decided to get pregnant in med school rather than wait until residency.

 

[Blade28]

Good to know. And not wanting to inconvenience fellow residents when I am one was definitely part of why I decided to get pregnant in med school rather than wait until residency.

You've been reading this thread ( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=446733 ) haven't you?

 

[baya]

You've been reading this thread ( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=446733 ) haven't you?

yup, but it's still true.