MSAR 2019 is out

BU Medical Sciences
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Depends on the rest of your app. High MCAT/low gpa combos look lazy or unmotivated. I’m one of them lol.
Click to expand...

Right it's app specific but willing to bet schools are selecting for MCATs more strongly over GPAs. Hard to make a decisive comparison since the people with high MCATs also usually have high GPAs.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Depends on the rest of your app. High MCAT/low gpa combos look lazy or unmotivated. I’m one of them lol.
Click to expand...
If you have a 2 year upward trend (as in, went from bad grades to 2 years of 4.0) do you know which of the T10-T20 types reward reinvention?
 
Lawper said:
Right it's app specific but willing to bet schools are selecting for MCATs more strongly over GPAs. Hard to make a decisive comparison since the people with high MCATs also usually have high GPAs.
Click to expand...
I wonder what percentage of the <10th percentile GPA students at the top schools are reinvention/postbacc/nontrad types.
 
samualjhatfield said:
Agreed. The entire application process (Primary, secondaries, interviews, etc.) costs about as much as the first month of Medical school.

The application price is a barrier for many, but it is the least expensive part of medical school.
Click to expand...

Yeah i probably spent 6k this cycle on apps and travel for interviews
 
  • Like
Reactions: M&L
curbsideconsult said:
For those who truly can't afford the process, they have the FAP.
Click to expand...

Yeah except when you don’t qualify because your parents make enough to disqualify you but not enough to help you and you’ve been financially independent from them for 15 years and have a spouse and kids of your own.

But I’m not bitter.
 
LukaDoncicLuk said:
The tuition bubble is a better target than the $28 spent for access to an incredibly useful document IMO
Click to expand...

They aren't mutually exclusive and are administered by different people. I think we can reform the application process by:

a) hard cap on # of apps/student, maybe have 15 free and another 5 for 25$/a pop. Instead of the growing number of shotgun applications with 30+ schools, this will cut down both student burden (fewer things to write) and administrator burden (fewer secondaries to read). The acceptance rate at individual schools would shoot up and individual applications would show interest more than they do now.
b) a match system. Imagine a world without waitlists. The match algorithm is biased towards applicants such that you always match to your favorite school, provided they let you in. It's so good it won a Nobel -- let's use it. I think it would be a good idea in college admissions, too.
c) required transparency on internal screens. I bet the vast majority of schools have an auto-filter for GPA/MCAT -- if we made this public we could save lots of heartache.
d) free access to all AAMC admissions statistics to better inform school lists.

The tuition bubble is a much larger systemic problem with higher education in the US, not just medical schools. I see little in the way of options for popping the bubble than simply legislating caps on tuition and yearly tuition growth or their associated federal loans, but I could be misinformed.
 
wontonsoup said:
They aren't mutually exclusive and are administered by different people. I think we can reform the application process by:

a) hard cap on # of apps/student, maybe have 15 free and another 5 for 25$/a pop. Instead of the growing number of shotgun applications with 30+ schools, this will cut down both student burden (fewer things to write) and administrator burden (fewer secondaries to read). The acceptance rate at individual schools would shoot up and individual applications would show interest more than they do now.
b) a match system. Imagine a world without waitlists. The match algorithm is biased towards applicants such that you always match to your favorite school, provided they let you in. It's so good it won a Nobel -- let's use it. I think it would be a good idea in college admissions, too.
c) required transparency on internal screens. I bet the vast majority of schools have an auto-filter for GPA/MCAT -- if we made this public we could save lots of heartache.
d) free access to all AAMC admissions statistics to better inform school lists.

The tuition bubble is a much larger systemic problem with higher education in the US, not just medical schools. I see little in the way of options for popping the bubble than simply legislating caps on tuition and yearly tuition growth or their associated federal loans, but I could be misinformed.
Click to expand...
This reminds me of a thought exercise I had a few nights ago about how to make the MCAT pass/fail.

1) Each subsection is given a score from -5 to +5 where each point is equal to half an SD away from the mean for a given test day, that way 2/3 of students fall between a -2 and a +2 for any given subsection.

2) A passing score is an overall score of "0". Negatives are allowed in each subsection, but you are only allowed 2 negatives and they cannot be lower than -3. (-4 and -5 in any subsection fails the whole exam regardless of other subsection scores)

This makes the test P/F and only the students who are on average better than the mean will be able to apply in a given cycle.
 
samualjhatfield said:
This reminds me of a thought exercise I had a few nights ago about how to make the MCAT pass/fail.

1) Each subsection is given a score from -5 to +5 where each point is equal to half an SD away from the mean for a given test day, that way 2/3 of students fall between a -2 and a +2 for any given subsection.

2) A passing score is an overall score of "0". Negatives are allowed in each subsection, but you are only allowed 2 negatives and they cannot be lower than -3. (-4 and -5 in any subsection fails the whole exam regardless of other subsection scores)

This makes the test P/F and only the students who are on average better than the mean will be able to apply in a given cycle.
Click to expand...

I think MCAT is overrated in top school admissions, but reducing its granularity to a simple binary is probably a step too far, imo. We need a rough proxy for academic ability that is standardized. If we just made it pass-fail, I think where you went to school or other arbitrary factors would suddenly become a whole lot more important. Despite it's flaws (tracking cleanly with wealth, disproportionate access to preparation, etc), I believe a granular, scale-scored MCAT is probably a net good. Maybe a 20 or even a 10 point scale instead of a 56 point scale would be better, though.
 
wontonsoup said:
I think MCAT is overrated in top school admissions, but reducing its granularity to a simple binary is probably a step too far, imo. We need a rough proxy for academic ability that is standardized. If we just made it pass-fail, I think where you went to school or other arbitrary factors would suddenly become a whole lot more important. Despite it's flaws (tracking cleanly with wealth, disproportionate access to preparation, etc), I believe a granular, scale-scored MCAT is probably a net good. Maybe a 20 or even a 10 point scale instead of a 56 point scale would be better, though.
Click to expand...
Take the same idea then - students get a score from -5 to +5 for their overall. Schools see "this student got a +4, which means they are greater than 2 SD above the mean" which would mean top 2.5%. a +5 would be like a 42+ on the old MCAT...like top 0.2%.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Yeah except when you don’t qualify because your parents make enough to disqualify you but not enough to help you and you’ve been financially independent from them for 15 years and have a spouse and kids of your own.

But I’m not bitter.
Click to expand...
While I'm not arguing that the middle class doesn't get the short end of any stick in most if not all circumstances, I don't think that applying to medical school is some kind of entitlement. I was in your boat in terms of whether or not I would financially qualify for FAP (sans spouse and kids). I had very little money and tons of debt (nothing's changed in that regard) but I wasn't about to upload my parents tax returns to get FAP because, like you, I had been financial independent from them for years. All this meant was that I couldn't apply to all the schools I wanted to and I had to be a little more careful about where I chose to apply.

Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
look lazy or unmotivated
Click to expand...
As an aside, I'm quite certain your "lazy" or "unmotivated" is probably most people's top-of-their-game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M&L
Goro said:
That's a very naive view of the data in MSAR. The info on # of people with post-bac experience, and the IS/OOS rations alone are worth the price to help help guide people. The $28 will be more than paid back by saving people money from not submitting wasted apps
Click to expand...
what?? wasted money?? Didnt you just say that you miss "100% of the shots you don't take" on the first page?

/s
 
DoctorSnow said:
I'd greatly appreciate anybody telling me the averages for University of South Dakota. My membership ran out yesterday (thought they updated on the same day each year so I waited a couple days to get the subscription assuming I could see the updated MSAR before losing it)
Click to expand...
looks like 510 - went up slightly
 
kb1900 said:
just wait til you apply for residency. ive heard a nsgy applicant quote 35k for the process on top of school tuition
Click to expand...
Holy crap how many residencies did s/he apply to and how many interviews did they attend?
 
kb1900 said:
just wait til you apply for residency. ive heard a nsgy applicant quote 35k for the process on top of school tuition
Click to expand...

How do people pay for that? Do schools give them loans for it?
 
Gilakend said:
How do people pay for that? Do schools give them loans for it?
Click to expand...


Shammyguy3 said:
Holy crap how many residencies did s/he apply to and how many interviews did they attend?
Click to expand...

well he stated that he used his savings, credit cards and parental support. he had taken a research year where he was able to save up a decent amount as well. he applied to every single program in the country because the nsgy match is no joke. not sure how many interviews he went on but i imagine a lot more than medical school interviews with that cost.
 
The average number of neurosurg ranks was 17. For an above average number of interviews we're talking in the mid 20s, many of them scheduled with little notice in cities across the country from you. So yeah I can see how it costs 10k+ although 35k seems excessive
 
kb1900 said:
well he stated that he used his savings, credit cards and parental support. he had taken a research year where he was able to save up a decent amount as well. he applied to every single program in the country because the nsgy match is no joke. not sure how many interviews he went on but i imagine a lot more than medical school interviews with that cost.
Click to expand...

I don't see how this is possible for a regular student with no parental support. Concerns me considering I'm interested in some competitive specialties.
 
efle said:
The average number of neurosurg ranks was 17. For an above average number of interviews we're talking in the mid 20s, many of them scheduled with little notice in cities across the country from you. So yeah I can see how it costs 10k+ although 35k seems excessive
Click to expand...
agreed. i have a feeling that he was factoring in audition rotations and the costs associated with that. in which you have to pay for rent in a new city and might end up double-paying if you can't find a sublet for your hometown housing.


anyway most agree 4th year is a sham with regards to paying full tuition just to spend most of ur time traveling/auditioning/taking "chill electives" etc.
 
puahate said:
Should i apply to 40 schools?
Click to expand...
I would say it depends on how much money you have.

I applied to 38 schools...had to sacrifice a lot of freedom to do so (moved back in with my parents to save on rent, food, etc.). It was worth it. I got accepted into 9 schools, waitlisted at 3. I was invited to interview at 20-21 schools, so I had to turn down 8-9 interviews. Got outright rejected from the rest of them.

The schools that I got outright rejected from...some of them were schools where I fit the mission, had the stats, everything. But for whatever reason, they didn't like me. Some of them rejected me because my stats were objectively not competitive enough.

Other schools, I didn't get rejected until mid cycle...getting a rejection e-mail in December after you were accepted in October doesn't really hurt that much.

Other schools invited me to interview in February for a March interview! After I had already turned down acceptances from schools I liked more!

(Some schools, I forgot that I had applied! 😆)

Of course, knowing what I know now, I would have applied to only the schools that eventually accepted me!

But when you submit your primary in June, you have no clue which schools are going to accept you. No one does.

Right now, my dad constantly brags to the family. "I told you that you didn't need to apply to so many schools. No one ever listens to me! Look at all this money you wasted."

But he's not involved in admissions in any way. He is not a doctor. He doesn't know any doctors or med admissions staff personally.

He also isn't the one applying. If I hadn't gotten in, he would have said "it's okay tiger, just apply again next year, you'll get in for sure."

But he hasn't the slightest clue of the bias against re-applicants. Of the amount of work it takes to select recommendation letter writers, to pursue research, to spend your free time putting yourself in uncomfortable situations so that you can help people that most people wouldn't even think to help (the dying, the poor, the abused, the needy, however you want to define them).

So yeah, I applied to almost 40 schools. I wanted to "guarantee" an acceptance. It worked out for me.

Do I wish I had more money right now? Yes. But hey. I have multiple acceptances. If I do all the other things right, the money will come. In 10 years, when I'm done with fellowship haha.

Basically this process is very random. The more money you have, the more you spread your risk.

This is assuming you have a strong enough application to even be competitive...if you have a 3.4/508, you might want to stick to DO.
 
Gilakend said:
I don't see how this is possible for a regular student with no parental support. Concerns me considering I'm interested in some competitive specialties.
Click to expand...

Rest easy. Most schools have specific grants and/or special loans to mitigate the costs of external rotations and residency applications. Just consult the financial aid office at your respective school to get the details.
 
kb1900 said:
well he stated that he used his savings, credit cards and parental support. he had taken a research year where he was able to save up a decent amount as well. he applied to every single program in the country because the nsgy match is no joke. not sure how many interviews he went on but i imagine a lot more than medical school interviews with that cost.
Click to expand...
That is pretty ridiculous. There are over 100 programs. It's true that neurosurgery has the highest number of contiguous ranks/matched applicant but this is silly unless he was way below the Step 1 average. You don't need to apply to 100 places to get 17+ interviews.

The process is pretty brutal but that is essentially masochistic.
 
longhaul3 said:
That is pretty ridiculous. There are over 100 programs. It's true that neurosurgery has the highest number of contiguous ranks/matched applicant but this is silly unless he was way below the Step 1 average. You don't need to apply to 100 places to get 17+ interviews.

The process is pretty brutal but that is essentially masochistic.
Click to expand...
Lol you should look at the derm stats
Most people apply to well over 100 programs and get at most ~6-10 interviews, even very solid candidates
 
FindMeOnTheLinks said:
Lol you should look at the derm stats
Most people apply to well over 100 programs and get at most ~6-10 interviews, even very solid candidates
Click to expand...
A plastics program director mentioned to me that because there are only like 70 programs in the country, it's very common now for people to apply to every. single. residency.

No wonder they have to throw up insane step1 screens, if they're getting ~200 applications to fill 2-4 seats.
 
efle said:
A plastics program director mentioned to me that because there are only like 70 programs in the country, it's very common now for people to apply to every. single. residency.

No wonder they have to throw up insane step1 screens, if they're getting ~200 applications to fill 2-4 seats.
Click to expand...
Yup. In competitive specialties it’s commom for people to apply to every program
 
efle said:
A plastics program director mentioned to me that because there are only like 70 programs in the country, it's very common now for people to apply to every. single. residency.

No wonder they have to throw up insane step1 screens, if they're getting ~200 applications to fill 2-4 seats.
Click to expand...
I can't make your emboldened portion even bolded-ier... But....like....that just seems stupid.

Do people just get so dead-set on "I am going to be in 'X Specialty'" that they forgo all semblance of introspection, decency, and care for geographic location?
 
The simplified answer to your question sounds like a resounding.... yes!

Think about it this way. You spend what... 6ish years in residency? Assuming you retire at 65 y/o and finished residency at 34 (Average age to starts medical school is 24 --> 28 (MD) + 6)) That leaves 30 years of practice. That's before considering salary. Is the trade-off worth it? 6 years vs. the rest of your practicing career. I'd say so.

Also, applying to all those programs and getting multiple interviews means you have your choice to choose the best placement after maximizing your chances. We can't all end up in California or Colorado (Or insert wherever you love), unfortunately.
 
samualjhatfield said:
What are the 'outstanding' things?

ECs, story, other stats?
Click to expand...
samualjhatfield said:
To what degree do those wow factors allow deviation from the norm on stats? I presume it would be dependent upon the wow factor
Click to expand...
Most common by far is URM status

Distant second to that would be if you were applying to fill a niche subgroup at that school, like a primary care track at a research powerhouse. Or, if you were an instate applicant to a school that pulls a lot of its upper stats range from the out-of-state apps.

You get the idea, it's largely cases like these, where you'd be operating under a different distribution than what the MSAR shows for the overall student body.
 
samualjhatfield said:
I can't make your emboldened portion even bolded-ier... But....like....that just seems stupid.

Do people just get so dead-set on "I am going to be in 'X Specialty'" that they forgo all semblance of introspection, decency, and care for geographic location?
Click to expand...
So you spend 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school putting in blood sweat and tears, a few hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt. You decide you want to be a plastic surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon or a dermatologist. You apply for the match. It’s the rest of your career on the line.

If you don’t match, you will likely never be able to practice the field that you want. If you don’t match, there’s a chance you don’t get a residency at all.

You would be an absolute ***** not to apply to as many programs as you can if you are applying to those competitive specialties. If that means spending 10k, that’s a small price to pay to ensure you can practice your chosen specialty for the next 30+ years of your career. When it comes time to apply for residency, you will understand.
 
Last edited:
samualjhatfield said:
To what degree do those wow factors allow deviation from the norm on stats? I presume it would be dependent upon the wow factor
Click to expand...
This is impossible to answer because it's applicant/interviewer/school specific.

There are some things you can't quantify either.
 
Goro said:
This is impossible to answer because it's applicant/interviewer/school specific.

There are some things you can't quantify either.
Click to expand...
And that is completely understandable. I appreciate the response!
 
sealfriendo said:
How competitive is a 518 now at these crazy schools?
Click to expand...

distributions are all different. the MSAR is a worthwhile investment the year you are applying!! Purchase it and look at all of the useful data, in addition to the 25-75th percentile spreads for schools you are interested in.
 
Lucca said:
well, if its 10th percentile accepted that means in a class of 100, probably around 20-30 were accepted with that score.
Click to expand...
I wonder if more people with 90th percentiles are accepted than 10th because they are more likely to have other strong acceptances. We are talking about differences between 518-524 so I am not sure if there would be an effect.

BTW is your name a reference to LUCA?
 
wontonsoup said:
I wonder if more people with 90th percentiles are accepted than 10th because they are more likely to have other strong acceptances. We are talking about differences between 518-524 so I am not sure if there would be an effect.

BTW is your name a reference to LUCA?
Click to expand...

huh? bottom 10th percentile and top 90th percentile will be, roughly, the same exact number of people.

My name is a reference to my FF11 character from ages ago lmao
 
Lucca said:
huh? bottom 10th percentile and top 90th percentile will be, roughly, the same exact number of people.

My name is a reference to my FF11 character from ages ago lmao
Click to expand...

I worded that poorly. I was wondering whether the distribution of scores of matriculants and applicants are close to the same. I imagine that many of the 90th percentile accepted don't end up in the matriculant stats at all.
 
wontonsoup said:
I worded that poorly. I was wondering whether the distribution of scores of matriculants and applicants are close to the same. I imagine that many of the 90th percentile accepted don't end up in the matriculant stats at all.
Click to expand...

Sadly no. There are a lot of people now with 515+ 520+, and even 523+. They’re are still going to get majority rejections/waitlists unless there’s something about them that truly sticks out compared to anyone else. Med schools accepted people in their 90% tile mcat range because they thought those people were smart AND were good fits, good fits to the point that they’re willing to gamble on offering them a seat knowing they might have 2-3 other similar offers. The distributions of matriculants change a little but for most schools, not drastically so.
 
If possible, could someone provide the median gpa and mcat for Iowa and Quinnipiac? Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

0
How Accurate is MSAR for Coursework Requirements?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Med Ed
Med Ed
Mr.Smile12
2025-2026 AMCAS MSAR Reports / Discussions
Replies
0
Views
815
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
W
MSAR Letter of Intent/Interest Description
Replies
2
Views
826
Waitlistno2
W
S
MSAR Waitlist Data
Replies
6
Views
3K
gyngyn
gyngyn
Mr.Smile12
"Preparing for the Marathon" article is out
Replies
0
Views
538
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Top