msu-ers and wayne staters

[hopper]

Hi everyone (at MSU med and Wayne med),
Could you tell me what you like about your school/what you dislike? Also, any info on the passing rates for boards? Reasons to pick one of you over the other? Thanks. This will be a tremendous help. Any other advice, input, etc on how you came to choosing a school would be great. Thanks again.

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[kreno]

what a hard decision! on the one hand, wayne state is in the epicenter of an amazing medical center... and thriving medical community. It's also in the center of downtown detroit, which... I think is a benefit for learning medicine... you'll see so many things, and get to learn in a real "hands on" way. When I was training to be an EMT, I was allowed by docs there to do so many cool things; whereas when I did some training at other hosptials, like in Ann Arbor Umich... it wasn't the case.

Wayne is also highly reputable in the state of michigan. Wayne state doctors go a long way.

Then you have Michigan state.. .which, the best thing about it is the fact that it's better known around the country (maybe.. and i say maybe 'cuz i just think this 'cuz it's a "big 10" school). The medical school is ranked on USnews Primary Care rankings as being 17... but that doesn't mean *ANYTHING*. Primary Care ranking methodology is weird... and no one cares about it in the slightest. In short... you will find the same, if not better residency placements at wayne compared to msu.

MSu also doesn't have a hospital.. and in the third/forth year you have to go to a branch hospital to do your clinicals. Some of the locations are better than others... but in any regard, it is kinda weird and lack of continuity is inevidable despite what they may tell you (i.e. there are faculty deans at each branch hospital that are supposed to help with this, but it's jus tnot the case everywhere).

If you go to MSU you'll have to live in East lansing and the surrounding, boring area. At Wayne, you can live in Royal Oak or a number of other cool places.

I found the students, and this is totally subjective, to be dynamic, so to speak, at Wayne compared to MSU... but that is just me.

kreno

 

[Pontine]

I was in your situation a few years back ... and here's my point of view:

Wayne State has 200+ students, traditional curriculum - mostly lecture based, and the board pass rate unknown. On my interview there I was asked ... "If you were to run into academic trouble would you seek out help, because we have so many students we may not know until it's too late!" As far as clinical training, the DMC is a good place but there are equally comparable institutions elsewhere.

Michigan State has 105 students, all of whom know each other, the curriculum is lecture based 1st year and problem based throughout 2nd year. The board pass rate is > 98%. Two or three students may fail step I on 1st try and you generally know who those students are because of difficulty with years 1 and 2. Clinical skills training begins in 1st year. You have the option to spend your 3rd or 4th year either in Lansing or another community. For those students who desire the big university hosptial environment - they move to Grand Rapids. As a 4th year, you get to do electives away from campus ... so you could also go to the DMC if you felt the need. There are community deans on each campus that you get to know personally. You also get to know the dean on the main campus ... So you have plenty of guidance or Letter's of recommendations if needed. Lastly, the academic support at MSU is excellent. There is no way for you to get lost in the system. You will graduate and about 30% of the class enters non-primary care fields such as anesth, ophtho, surgery, derm, er, and etc.

Well ... I would continue my inquiries and hopefully you will be able to get more information about Wayne vs MSU.

 

[kreno]

two different perspectives.... and pontine has a lot of good points. It's really not an easy decision - that's for sure. But take some things both him and I said with a grain of salt... for example... while the class size at MSU is indeed smaller, technically... it's REALLY not because you sit in the SAME class with the Osteopathic students... so, in reality, it's really not smaller.

Another point is that Wayne state is a very traditional orientated curriculum... and that's what works for them and might work for you... you don't have to be all innovative and fancy to have a good curriclum... Johns Hopkins is still traditional and pumps out amazing doctors every year.

with regard to what I said... east lansing is a college town and there is some to do... and the crime rate is real low, so it's safer... so, although what I said about wayne's location is true... lansing is not as bad as i insinuated.


ahh
flip a coin!
good luck
kreno

 

[Mossjoh]

Hello, I'm a MSU CHM MS1.
I really like MSU. The teaching faculty are generally excellent (there are always a few you don't like). The clinical faculty and staff are very friendly and always willing to help. They often go out of their was to make sure that students are doing okay, their focus is on the student. I was sick one day and a physician that I talked to here was concerned. She offered to help me get into the student health center ASAP as well as contacted me to make sure I was doing okay the next day. This is a M.D. with a busy practice..who still takes time to care about the medical students.

The classes are intense, but they will be at any school you go to. However, this is reduced somewhat in some classes. Gross Anatomy is based on prosections, students do not do the dissecting. This has pros and cons. First, we spent a lot less time in lab, and I still feel I have a great understanding of anatomy. Also, it allows us to see the same structures on several bodies, not just our one "assigned" cadaver. The cons are that you don't get to dissect and get a feel for depth of structures, however there is an elective dissection course you can take after you complete Gross Anatomy.

The pass rate for boards is high, about the national average, which is the high nineties. The faculty tells us that statisically, anyone at CHM who has an average score in classes above 85% has 100% pass rate for boards. This is of course considering that you take the time to study for boards as well.

Like many other schools, MSU is facing heavy budget cuts next year. This applies to ALL state supported schools though. MSU CHM is looking for ways to slash their budget to accomodate. One step is closing the small Saginaw campus that was an option for clinlical rotations in 3rd and 4th yrs. Nearby Flint is left open as well as the other 4 campuses (GR, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Marquette). This is a major cut for CHM...but they are doing this to avoid HUGE tuition increases and perserve the integrety of their programs. They did have the students in mind when making this decision.

I applied and was accepted to Wayne, but decided not to attend there. I know little besides the basics, so I'm not in a real good position to answer questions about it.

Good luck with the decision

Mossjoh

 

[hopper]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all this input. I'm interested to hear more about the problems with the DMC, and also about MSU's Saginaw campus. If this closes, does this mean that the Marquette campus will no longer be an optional campus? Will Marquette end up being a campus where you can end up at if you go to lottery for the 3rd and 4th year rotations? Also, Mossjoh-do you find MSU CHM to be clique-y (and a lot like high school in that way?) I've heard several complaints about this regarding Wayne, but I wasn't sure if that was across the board since med schools always have a small class size (as compared to undergrad). And how much time do you really have to get out and enjoy the cities? Enough for that to be a consideration? Thanks again.

 

[Mossjoh]

email me if you want

 

[Jim Picotte]

They're both excellent schools and a small correction is that only the first year do both CHM and COM students take the same core classes. Having the COM students there is actually an advantage though in my opinion. MSU has very good training and very good pass rates for the boards. I loved the individual attention I got from our individual communities. Wayne State is also excellent. I did not know about the closing of the Saginaw campus at MSU which is really unfortunate and I've also heard "rumors" about Wayne State losing a lot of money because of the DMC. Apparently the DMC gives Wayne a lot of money and with both the state cutbacks and loss of funds from DMC there may be changes but nothing solid that I've heard so far.

You'll get a good education wherever you go.

 

[Finally M3]

I don't think that the situation is as dire as MD'05 spelled it out to be, but that may be due to the fact that I will be graduating (God Willing) in '04. The tuition increase of 10% is going to sting, tho', especially considering we've looked at tuition increases of 8-10% every year I've been enrolled at Wayne. However, $15K a year is VERY reasonable, especially considering some of the other tuitions I was staring in the face prior to my Wayne admission ($40K+, which has probably gotten worse).

However, from what I've read and heard, it's highly unlikely that Receiving will be shut down. It sounds like that there will be some apparatus set-up a la Chicago, New Orleans, Miami where Receiving will be obtain public funding. According to the DMC Prez, the DMC gave out $120 million in uncompensated health care, resulting in an $80 million dollar loss in the last fiscal year. There was also a proposal put into the state legislature where the DMC would directly receive Medicaid funds from the State as opposed to having to shake down failing Medicaid HMOs for reimbursement. The DMC is also owed something like $40 million by the HMO that covers employees of Wayne County or the city of Detroit (I forgot which) which they've received the grand total of $8K over the past two years.

In the event that Receiving DID shut down....you would see a HUGE impact on the other hospitals in SE Michigan, especially those which border Detroit. Receiving serves as a dumping ground for patients without private insurance, and you would see a number of medical systems that are already on shaky financial ground (Henry Ford being the shakiest) get slammed. This would ultimately effect your clinical experience as well, since Ford serves as a site for Surgery, OB, Medicine, and Family.

I don't really have any advice for you, just a warning to be aware of this if you decide on Wayne as a school...ultimately, you have to do what you think is best for your future career plans (whatever those may be).

Good luck!

Originally posted by MD'05
At yesterday's meeting with the second year class at Wayne, Dean Frank stated that in the event of Detroit Receiving, Harper, and Hutzel hospitals closing that the worse case scenario is that the new third years would experience overcrowding in their rotations. That means that MSU students would probably experience overcrowding also since our administration would look for space at the same locations where MSU students are sent. Possibly even U of M students would experience overcrowding also.

Currently, there is no mention of the medical school closing. Wayne State University is looking to achieve economies by eliminating different departments that have "low degree output". There may also be some consolidation of science classes between graduate schools and medicine and possibly nursing. We currently have graduate students in some of our medical school courses, but their grades are kept separate (thank goodness).

Unfortunately there will be tuition increases since the larger university is limited as to the amount of dollars that they can suck out of the undergraduate students. As Dean Frank put it, "the public does not care about business, law, or medical students since they will be driving BMW's in the [not too distant] future". The increase could be as much as 10% or greater.

Some of the students tried to broach the topic of having away rotations in 3rd year to make up for the possible lack of space. Dr. Ginsburg stated that all 3rd year experiences will be home-based. I sure would have liked to have gone to Chicago for a rotation or two. Oh well.

Anyway, that's the current word on Wayne State. The entire Michigan ecomony seems to be in ruin even though there seems to be plenty of money in the state. It would be risky coming to Wayne at this stage of the game, but understand that if the state or federal government allowed these hospitals (DMC affiliated) to close, there would be (as Dean Frank phrased it) "people dying in the street, literally". Detroit Receiving hospital is the Charity (New Orleans) of Detroit. This is the only hospital where the uninsured can receive health care in all of southeastern Michigan. The other hospitals turn the poor away.

Lastly, the DMC does not "give" the medical school funds. The DMC owes the medical schools funds for services rendered by the academic physicians. From what I understand the figure is in the millions of dollars and the DMC has not paid for services for several consecutive years. They have some real "creative" financing going on at the DMC -- sounds like another Enron in the making.