MSW to Counseling/Clinical Psych PhD

[maineproblems]

I'm finishing up my first year of a two year MSW program. This fall (2013) I will be applying to PhD programs for clinical and counseling psychology (so far the list is at about 15 schools). If I was to get in, I would start the fall (2014) after graduating from my MSW program; if I don't get in, I'll be looking for a job (lame...)!

Long story short--I already know that this is the path for me. I have talked with numerous PhD's (including a few of my personal mentors), current PhD students, and students that have just been accepted into various PhD programs. My biggest reason for the PhD is to teach at a university level with tenure, research, clinical work, etcccc. And to not be in the social work field anymore.

I'm curious if there is anybody out there that has applied to a PhD in psychology from the social work field, and what feedback you could give me about the application process, how it is different from social work school, and what types of things that you recommend I should be getting involved with now to strengthen my current application (I have a clinical internship, a research internship, I'll be TAing in the fall, I have a few posters and a soon to be publication, and current volunteer work). Also, I'll be retaking the GRE this summer as my scores were only mediocre.

Lastly, I'm a bit concerned about how I will ask 3 people to each write 15+ letters of recommendation for me for the programs. I have more than 3 people that I could ask, but there are 3 that know me the best, and have been involved with me in various contexts (class, research, clinical work, etc). How did people ask this many people to write their LOR?

Thanks in advance for your input!

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[bmedclinic]

Hi,
I dont have much to tell you, but I will make two quick points.

First, I know MSW's that have gotten tenure track positions doing research. One of my friends go her MSW degree 2 years ago, and just accepted a tenure track position. So essentially, she's where you'd be 3 years from now. That said, she's an "all star" in her world.. so take that fwiw, but it's possible.

Second, if you're certain about the phd in clinical/counseling, I'd seriously look into who needs to supervise you so that you can become an LMSW/LCSW along the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that when you're an LCSW, you can pretty much do what you want (sans assessment type activities) so you could, in theory, as a student, get those 3 years worth of hours while in grad school + become licensed as an LCSW depending on the law/programs that you go into. Might be very helpful for billing and making yourself attractice to externships, etc.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm finishing up my first year of a two year MSW program. This fall (2013) I will be applying to PhD programs for clinical and counseling psychology (so far the list is at about 15 schools). If I was to get in, I would start the fall (2014) after graduating from my MSW program; if I don't get in, I'll be looking for a job (lame...)!

Long story short--I already know that this is the path for me. I have talked with numerous PhD's (including a few of my personal mentors), current PhD students, and students that have just been accepted into various PhD programs. My biggest reason for the PhD is to teach at a university level with tenure, research, clinical work, etcccc. And to not be in the social work field anymore.

I'm curious if there is anybody out there that has applied to a PhD in psychology from the social work field, and what feedback you could give me about the application process, how it is different from social work school, and what types of things that you recommend I should be getting involved with now to strengthen my current application (I have a clinical internship, a research internship, I'll be TAing in the fall, I have a few posters and a soon to be publication, and current volunteer work). Also, I'll be retaking the GRE this summer as my scores were only mediocre.

Lastly, I'm a bit concerned about how I will ask 3 people to each write 15+ letters of recommendation for me for the programs. I have more than 3 people that I could ask, but there are 3 that know me the best, and have been involved with me in various contexts (class, research, clinical work, etc). How did people ask this many people to write their LOR?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Professors are typically used to being asked for LORs, so if you bring it up with them and they agree, they'll usually know what they're getting themselves into. That being said, they won't really be writing 15 different letters--odds are they'll write one letter, and will just change to whom it's addressed for each program. However, if they agree, it'd definitely be recommended that you provide them with a spreadsheet containing useful/necessary information (e.g., name and address of the school, name of the person/people to whom the letter should be sent, due date, whether they need to mail the letter themselves or put it in a sealed envelope and give it to you, etc.). Given the writer a copy of your CV is also very useful, as might be a brief (one or two paragraphs) summary of the work you've done with them.

 

[MBellows]

Giving the writer a copy of your CV is also very useful, as might be a brief (one or two paragraphs) summary of the work you've done with them.

I just wanted to add that you should probably also give them a short paragraph summary of what you are interested in researching in graduate school.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I know very little about social work, so forgive me if this is a silly question....what about a doctorate in social work? I would think that would prepare you for an academic career and you might be a more attractive applicant to those programs because you are "one of them."

Just throwing it out there.

Dr. E

 

[maineproblems]

I know very little about social work, so forgive me if this is a silly question....what about a doctorate in social work? I would think that would prepare you for an academic career and you might be a more attractive applicant to those programs because you are "one of them."

Just throwing it out there.

Dr. E

Great question! I contemplated that option for a number of months. After talking with numerous professors with various certifications/degrees (LICSW, PhD, LCSW, MSW), I decided that it was not the path for me. I think the biggest barrier for me pursuing a PhD in social work or a DSW is that it really only allows you to teach social work, which I would love to do, but I also would love to teach psychology. I'm sure there are exceptions to this "rule" as there are for everything but I see having a professional social work degree/license (MSW/LICSW) and a PhD in psychology will open more doors for me, so that I could teach social work and psychology at a graduate level in more institutions (not be limited to those institutions who would allow me to teach psychology with a social work PhD). This is why I chose psychology over social work, but when I am amidst all the applications, I may throw in a PhD social work application as a "backup" whether I decide to go there or not.

Thanks for the feedback

 

[maineproblems]

I just wanted to add that you should probably also give them a short paragraph summary of what you are interested in researching in graduate school.

This is a great idea! Thank you

 

[maineproblems]

Professors are typically used to being asked for LORs, so if you bring it up with them and they agree, they'll usually know what they're getting themselves into. That being said, they won't really be writing 15 different letters--odds are they'll write one letter, and will just change to whom it's addressed for each program. However, if they agree, it'd definitely be recommended that you provide them with a spreadsheet containing useful/necessary information (e.g., name and address of the school, name of the person/people to whom the letter should be sent, due date, whether they need to mail the letter themselves or put it in a sealed envelope and give it to you, etc.). Given the writer a copy of your CV is also very useful, as might be a brief (one or two paragraphs) summary of the work you've done with them.

I totally agree. The sense that I'm getting from people (especially those who have gone through the process of applying to PhDs) is that they know they will be asked to write a plethora of LOR. That being said, I do think that you're right in that they may create a basic recommendation and just change the address for each school, and with some may need to add a few extra sentences if there is something specific the school is asking for.

Being a very organized/meticulous person, I think I may create binders for each of my recommenders that include a spreadsheet of all the schools and specific information for each school I'll be applying to (who to address it to, who to send it to, etc). I'll also include pre-addressed envelopes for the schools that will need it snail-mailed to them rather than via web.

Thanks for the feedback...it was useful!

 

[maineproblems]

Hi,
I dont have much to tell you, but I will make two quick points.

First, I know MSW's that have gotten tenure track positions doing research. One of my friends go her MSW degree 2 years ago, and just accepted a tenure track position. So essentially, she's where you'd be 3 years from now. That said, she's an "all star" in her world.. so take that fwiw, but it's possible.

Second, if you're certain about the phd in clinical/counseling, I'd seriously look into who needs to supervise you so that you can become an LMSW/LCSW along the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that when you're an LCSW, you can pretty much do what you want (sans assessment type activities) so you could, in theory, as a student, get those 3 years worth of hours while in grad school + become licensed as an LCSW depending on the law/programs that you go into. Might be very helpful for billing and making yourself attractice to externships, etc.

I really like this idea. I live in MA, and we have a "junior license" that is a LCSW (basically when you get this licensure, you need two years of supervision from a LICSW before you yourself can take the test to become a LICSW and work independently). I had planned to take my LCSW test over the summer between graduating from my MSW program and beginning my PhD program, just to have it because you're right in that it looks nice on a resume. I did not think about also working on gaining hours toward my independent license during my PhD program, which I think is a brilliant idea. I would probably not work with a LICSW in my PhD program during my clinical internships as I assume they would want me working with another psychologist (the same way that to get your independent license in social work they want you to work with other social workers, not mental health counselors or psychologists, etc.) I know you can purchase supervision, so I wonder if I could do my clinical internship under a PhD psychologist, but then also pay for additional supervision from an LICSW to provide me with the clinical hours I need to apply for my license.

Hmmmmm, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thank you for your input! I think this will be important for me to consider as I move forward.

 

[psycguy85]

I really like this idea. I live in MA, and we have a "junior license" that is a LCSW (basically when you get this licensure, you need two years of supervision from a LICSW before you yourself can take the test to become a LICSW and work independently). I had planned to take my LCSW test over the summer between graduating from my MSW program and beginning my PhD program, just to have it because you're right in that it looks nice on a resume. I did not think about also working on gaining hours toward my independent license during my PhD program, which I think is a brilliant idea. I would probably not work with a LICSW in my PhD program during my clinical internships as I assume they would want me working with another psychologist (the same way that to get your independent license in social work they want you to work with other social workers, not mental health counselors or psychologists, etc.) I know you can purchase supervision, so I wonder if I could do my clinical internship under a PhD psychologist, but then also pay for additional supervision from an LICSW to provide me with the clinical hours I need to apply for my license.

Hmmmmm, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thank you for your input! I think this will be important for me to consider as I move forward.

I could be wrong, but I doubt most clinical Ph.D. programs would allow this as they will most likely require you only be supervised by licensed psychologists. Were you referring to having a psychologist and social worker as supervisors for the same cases? If so, I think that could be especially difficult, both for you (ex: having one supervisor who is CBT and another who is dynamic), and also would present some tricky legal and ethical questions (for instance, who is ultimately responsible for patient care)?

Good luck to you!

 

[maineproblems]

I could be wrong, but I doubt most clinical Ph.D. programs would allow this as they will most likely require you only be supervised by licensed psychologists. Were you referring to having a psychologist and social worker as supervisors for the same cases? If so, I think that could be especially difficult, both for you (ex: having one supervisor who is CBT and another who is dynamic), and also would present some tricky legal and ethical questions (for instance, who is ultimately responsible for patient care)?

Good luck to you!

I'm really not sure how this would work or if it's even possible, to be totally honest. But if it were possible, I hope to do it! How I see it is that I would work directly under the PhD at the internship site. I would then get supervision feedback from an LICSW that I privately pay to give me a different perspective on the same cases. I would then return to the PhD supervisor to review and possibly implement these ideas... but of course, this could be me just making things up!

But I see your point about them each having different approaches to the same cases, which could end up getting confusing/conflicted. I wonder if having cases under the PhD at the internship site (and getting supervision for these cases with him/her), and then maintaining one or two private client(s) under my LCSW license totally separate from the internship, of which I would get supervision from the LICSW--this way they would be different entities altogether, but this of course means more work while I'm trying to do well in my PhD program.

Any ideas from people that know more about this than myself?? I doubt I'm the first person in the world to think about this...

 

[MBellows]

I'm really not sure how this would work or if it's even possible, to be totally honest. But if it were possible, I hope to do it! How I see it is that I would work directly under the PhD at the internship site. I would then get supervision feedback from an LICSW that I privately pay to give me a different perspective on the same cases. I would then return to the PhD supervisor to review and possibly implement these ideas... but of course, this could be me just making things up!

But I see your point about them each having different approaches to the same cases, which could end up getting confusing/conflicted. I wonder if having cases under the PhD at the internship site (and getting supervision for these cases with him/her), and then maintaining one or two private client(s) under my LCSW license totally separate from the internship, of which I would get supervision from the LICSW--this way they would be different entities altogether, but this of course means more work while I'm trying to do well in my PhD program.

Any ideas from people that know more about this than myself?? I doubt I'm the first person in the world to think about this...

Are the ethical codes for psychologists and social workers the same? If there is a conflict, when one do you side with?

 

[maineproblems]

Are the ethical codes for psychologists and social workers the same? If there is a conflict, when one do you side with?

You are right in asking this, and I'm not sure what the answer would be, honestly. I wasn't sure if this idea was even possible (but I hope it is, somehow!). I wonder if there is anyone else out there who has any ideas of how to attain supervision hours to become an LICSW while in PhD (counseling/clinical psych) school WITHOUT having a second internship (god knows that I'll already have enough work...).

Thank you for reading this far!!

 

[Bayside]

I think you first need to find out how many post MSW client supervised hours you will need to get licensed. If you could just see a client or two a week for a couple of years (under the supervision of a LCSW) completely separately from any practicum you might be doing and that would be enough for the licence it might be possible to do concurrently with a Ph.D. Program in psychology. However, I don't know if that would be enough client contact. Also, your Ph.D.program would have to understand you were doing this and check with their legal advisors about the implications for them. It would be very complicated (and IMHO a very bad idea) both ethically and legally to attempt to use the same clients with two different supervisors. In part this is because your supervisor is legally responsible for your work but also I think you would be vulnerable to trying to serve two masters, which is fraught with problems for both you and your clients. If you want to be a LCSW, perhaps it would be better to defer entering a doctoral psych program until you have your SW license - you would then have two solid years of clinical experience under your belt which would give you more credibility both in the application process and as a clinician. Another alternative is to decide you want to be a psychologist not a clinical SW and focus on that in grad school rather than trying to be both. Just my 2c .. good luck with this decision.

 

[maineproblems]

I think you first need to find out how many post MSW client supervised hours you will need to get licensed. If you could just see a client or two a week for a couple of years (under the supervision of a LCSW) completely separately from any practicum you might be doing and that would be enough for the licence it might be possible to do concurrently with a Ph.D. Program in psychology. However, I don't know if that would be enough client contact. Also, your Ph.D.program would have to understand you were doing this and check with their legal advisors about the implications for them. It would be very complicated (and IMHO a very bad idea) both ethically and legally to attempt to use the same clients with two different supervisors. In part this is because your supervisor is legally responsible for your work but also I think you would be vulnerable to trying to serve two masters, which is fraught with problems for both you and your clients. If you want to be a LCSW, perhaps it would be better to defer entering a doctoral psych program until you have your SW license - you would then have two solid years of clinical experience under your belt which would give you more credibility both in the application process and as a clinician. Another alternative is to decide you want to be a psychologist not a clinical SW and focus on that in grad school rather than trying to be both. Just my 2c .. good luck with this decision.

It seems that most people are suggesting that it may not be possible to use the same clients with two supervisors, which I agree with. I think that the only way I'd be able to use the same clients for supervision would be if my supervisor had an LICSW as well as their PhD in clinical psych which will be very difficult to find (although there is a professor in my program who has these credentials).

I think that what you suggest here (having clients outside of my program), is going to be the only option to get my LICSW. I may become overwhelmed in the program, in which case I would not take on this extra work, but I may end up having a few extra hours per week to do this. I would probably wait until a year or two into the program before I decided to take on these extra cases. It was suggested that I somehow make this happen because it could make me a better candidate in the internship year, already having independent licensure as a clinician. But I would much rather enter a PhD than postpone it to get supervision hours from an LICSW just to get my independent license, so if it isn't possible to gain hours during my program, I will forgo this idea! Who knows, it may be possible in some super confusing way!

Does anyone else have ideas?