Doc.Holliday

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I put this for jobs, and for various organizations with set weekly meeting etc, but so many of my activities are a few times a month all day deals or whenever i have a free moment (in other words not very consistent week to week), and it just seems like averaging that out to what it would be per week is deceiving, and so is putting however many hours it is for the week i do in fact take part in the activity. It seems better to me in these cases to leave it blank and in the description say i volunteer two full saturdays a month, various afternoons, or whathaveyou instead of picking a relatively arbitrary number. Whats the rule on this.
 

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Doc.Holliday said:
I put this for jobs, and for various organizations with set weekly meeting etc, but so many of my activities are a few times a month all day deals or whenever i have a free moment (in other words not very consistent week to week), and it just seems like averaging that out to what it would be per week is deceiving, and so is putting however many hours it is for the week i do in fact take part in the activity. It seems better to me in these cases to leave it blank and in the description say i volunteer two full saturdays a month, various afternoons, or whathaveyou instead of picking a relatively arbitrary number. Whats the rule on this.
The numbers help if one is trying to figure out how many hours per week you were doing stuff in a given time period (so how busy was he first semester jr. year?) If you are working 2 Saturdays per month then it is about 4 hours per week (8 x 2 /4). Don't sweat the small stuff....
 

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I didn't put avg hrs/week unless it was a weekly commitment. Just make sure the info is there somewhere, I'm sure they can figure it out.
 
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LizzyM said:
The numbers help if one is trying to figure out how many hours per week you were doing stuff in a given time period (so how busy was he first semester jr. year?) If you are working 2 Saturdays per month then it is about 4 hours per week (8 x 2 /4). Don't sweat the small stuff....
What about for people who decided on medicine late in their undergrad careers (jr.,sr. year) and therefore most of their EC's are during those last two years? Is it going to really hurt if there isn't much from the first two years listed?
 

LizzyM

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did you have any extracurriculuar activities in those years? clubs, sports, performing arts, helping the disadvantaged. It's nice to know that you are, and have always been, an interesting person who has done more than just study.
 

hermit

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LizzyM said:
It's nice to know that you are, and have always been, an interesting person who has done more than just study.
Lizzy, you are always so helpful on here but when people say things like that, I always wonder if a dying cancer patient really cares if their oncologist liked to play the harp as an undergrad. I know, I know, you want well rounded, empathetic people. Personally, when I get the big C, I want the jerk that spent his life honing his ability to cure me.

But I don't expect you to change the system just for me :) .
 

LizzyM

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hermit said:
Lizzy, you are always so helpful on here but when people say things like that, I always wonder if a dying cancer patient really cares if their oncologist liked to play the harp as an undergrad. I know, I know, you want well rounded, empathetic people. Personally, when I get the big C, I want the jerk that spent his life honing his ability to cure me.

But I don't expect you to change the system just for me :) .
Are you saying that we shouldn't accept non-trads and people who came over to pre-med in the jr yr of college? Problem with the "all work & no play" types is that they burn out, go nuts, and have to transfer their patients to other providers... so, when you get the big C, you just might want someone who has some release valve for the pressure of giving you the best possible care.

The general consensus on the adcom is that applicants with interests outside of the classroom (together with great scores, grades, etc) make the best students. We don't want the dweebs who do nothing outside of studying or who don't use their time wisely for a balance of work, community service & fun.
 

notdeadyet

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hermit said:
I always wonder if a dying cancer patient really cares if their oncologist liked to play the harp as an undergrad. I know, I know, you want well rounded, empathetic people. Personally, when I get the big C, I want the jerk that spent his life honing his ability to cure me.
If your oncologist is the sort that's done nothing but live the life of his nose in the books and pure science thang, odds are he'll lack the ingenuity and outside-the-box thinking to really be an effective oncologist.
 

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LizzyM said:
We don't want...[those]...who don't use their time wisely for a balance of work, community service & fun.
This is an aspect of the point I was driving at. When was it decided that good doctors have a prescribed set of extracurricular activities?

You will say that there is no such mandate.

I would counter by asking you to head on over to mdapplicants.com and randomly sample ten 'accepted' profiles. Eight of them are probably identical - ER volunteer, premedical club, research assistant, etc. Like it or not, there's a standard set of checkboxes.

Unlike John Doe's personal statement would have you believe, medicine is a career pursuit like any other with the exception of dictating what the practioner does in their free time.

Why can't there be great students (doctors) who work extremely hard and simply go home at the end of the day for a beer and some TV?
 

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notdeadyet said:
If your oncologist is the sort that's done nothing but live the life of his nose in the books and pure science thang, odds are he'll lack the ingenuity and outside-the-box thinking to really be an effective oncologist.
I typed an extremely cynical response to this but decided against posting. I am trying out the, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" thing.

Suffice to say we have a difference of opinion.
 

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notdeadyet said:
If your oncologist is the sort that's done nothing but live the life of his nose in the books and pure science thang, odds are he'll lack the ingenuity and outside-the-box thinking to really be an effective oncologist.
Also, I feel that an oncologist especially needs the people skills to comfort his/her patients and family members when things are looking bad. You don't get that from only being in books all day.
 

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shantster said:
Also, I feel that an oncologist especially needs the people skills to comfort his/her patients and family members when things are looking bad. You don't get that from only being in books all day.
Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.
 
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hermit said:
Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.
I personally feel that if the patient feels comforted and is optimistic about his/her recovery, then s/he will respond better to the treatments than one who doesn't feel comfortable with his/her doctor.
 

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shantster said:
Also, I feel that an oncologist especially needs the people skills to comfort his/her patients and family members when things are looking bad. You don't get that from only being in books all day.
Why do you equate an absence of EC's with studying all day? Just because someone isn't heavily involved in clubs and such does not mean they are always studying. The person who gets the good grades and spends his/her free time with friends or at the bar likely has the same amount of people skills as the person running from club meeting to meeting, perhaps even more.
 

LizzyM

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Because there are physicians who go over to the free clinic one night a week and take care of uninsured folks. And there are those who are surgeons by day and poets (or novelists) by night. The practitioners who answer questions and educate the public on radio, TV & in publications. The docs who volunteer to staff the first aid tent at the annual marathon. Physician-scientists who care for patients and design and conduct research that spans between bench and bedside.

We'd like to say, "those physicians are our alumni".

Let some other school admit the guy who is going to do his job, & go home & veg.
 

LizzyM

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Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.

You wouldn't say that if you'd ever really, really been sick or had a sick loved one. No one deserves to be treated like garbage and I hope I never admit an applicant who lacks respect for patients.
 

hermit

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shantster said:
I personally feel that if the patient feels comforted and is optimistic about his/her recovery, then s/he will respond better to the treatments than one who doesn't feel comfortable with his/her doctor.
Polio was wiped out after a vaccine was developed regardless of the doc's demeanor.
 

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I am sort of tired of hearing this idea -

hermit said:
Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.
Thats fine, but by treating you like garbage, he makes it less likely he'll be able to cure you. Patients don't listen to doctors who treat them like garbage. Compliance, low to begin with, goes down the tubes if you feel like your doc doesn't give a damn, or you feel like you have to question his motives, or you feel like he doesn't listen and understand you and take the time to make sure you understand him.

And if you're over t here thinking 'no, I don't care, if he knows his stuff I'll be able to tell and he can treat me however he wants,' that's fine too, I c an't argue with you, but that will put you in the great minority of patients.

Unless its an emergency or whatever, for a patient to allow another person to treat them, to ask them questions no other person ever asks and examine them in places no other person (even themself) ever sees, allows a great deal of trust. If you're an ass, you'll lose that trust pretty quickly.
 

LizzyM

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hermit said:
Polio was wiped out after a vaccine was developed regardless of the doc's demeanor.
Salk & Sabin were physician investigators. Neither were involved in direct patient care. Quite different than individual patients seeking care for a tumor. Tell me about health care being received today by people who contracted polio in the early 1950s. What kind of demeanor do they value in a physician?
 

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LizzyM said:
You wouldn't say that if you'd ever really, really been sick or had a sick loved one.
.
 

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LizzyM said:
Because there are physicians who go over to the free clinic one night a week and take care of uninsured folks. And there are those who are surgeons by day and poets (or novelists) by night. The practitioners who answer questions and educate the public on radio, TV & in publications. The docs who volunteer to staff the first aid tent at the annual marathon. Physician-scientists who care for patients and design and conduct research that spans between bench and bedside.

We'd like to say, "those physicians are our alumni".

Let some other school admit the guy who is going to do his job, & go home & veg.
:clap: :clap:

hermit, i don't think you'll win this one.

and i hate when people assume that if the doctor's a jerk, he/she must be smart. (not saying you're assuming that, just people in general.)
 

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hermit said:
Polio was wiped out after a vaccine was developed regardless of the doc's demeanor.
cmon now...clearly this is totally different. If you don't see patients do whatever you want, be a tool.

Comparing pathologists and researchers to primary care, ob and psych is apples to oranges. I'd imagine most people agree if you don't see patients, demeanor won't make or break a doc....But it sounds ridiculous to say it doesn't matter for any physicians.
 
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hermit said:
Ok. Gotta go study
Ok, I lied. One more real quick. Somehow this thread turned into me defending mean doctors who were good at what they do (note to self, scratch debate team off of EC list). Where it BEGAN was me defending docs who were average joes (not a**holes) and great at what they do. Record straight - check.
 

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LizzyM said:
Because there are physicians who go over to the free clinic one night a week and take care of uninsured folks. And there are those who are surgeons by day and poets (or novelists) by night. The practitioners who answer questions and educate the public on radio, TV & in publications. The docs who volunteer to staff the first aid tent at the annual marathon. Physician-scientists who care for patients and design and conduct research that spans between bench and bedside.

We'd like to say, "those physicians are our alumni".

Let some other school admit the guy who is going to do his job, & go home & veg.
Good points, but I'd be willing to bet that many applicants only do most of their activities to bolster their applications. The applicant who was involved in two or three things that they are passionate about may be the one's who do those things you mention above, while the person who fills their application with 10 activities just for the heck of it may be the one's who do absolutely nothing in med school and beyond since they are no longer trying to impress anybody. In short, med schools seem to value quantity over quality, and thats what I disagree with.
 

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If you can come up with an average, then do it.

If it doesn't apply, then don't.
 

LizzyM

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bbas said:
Good points, but I'd be willing to bet that many applicants only do most of their activities to bolster their applications. The applicant who was involved in two or three things that they are passionate about may be the one's who do those things you mention above, while the person who fills their application with 10 activities just for the heck of it may be the one's who do absolutely nothing in med school and beyond since they are no longer trying to impress anybody. In short, med schools seem to value quantity over quality, and thats what I disagree with.
not mine. We sniff 'em out and pick the most genuine. And believe me -- some of the appies really stink of gunner.
 

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LizzyM said:
Salk & Sabin were physician investigators. Neither were involved in direct patient care. Quite different than individual patients seeking care for a tumor. Tell me about health care being received today by people who contracted polio in the early 1950s. What kind of demeanor do they value in a physician?
Very true, which was my point exactly.

Also, if a patient doesn't feel comfortable with their doctor, then they are going to be less likely to follow their advice than if they trust their doctor.
 

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bbas said:
Good points, but I'd be willing to bet that many applicants only do most of their activities to bolster their applications.
The proof comes out come interview time. I'd imagine that medical school interviews have some similarities to professional interviews. And a good interviewer can usually tell if someone's padded their resume and gone through the motions to look good. I'd imagine and adcom could read an applicant pretty well and figure out if their life was focused on padding their app.
 

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hermit said:
Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.
Three words: Get real sick.

A physician's bedside manner and interpersonal skills may not seem to matter much when you're young and immortal. But when you find yourself on the wrong side of a hospital often enough with friends working through bad trauma, spouses with cancer scares and have to spend time with doctors not for fun but because that formerly-infalible body of yours is just starting to... age... you find that how a doctor treats you and those you care about, and how you're able to relate to him, is more important than if his school was top 50 or unranked.
 

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LizzyM said:
not mine. We sniff 'em out and pick the most genuine. And believe me -- some of the appies really stink of gunner.
I sure hope that I smell genuine then! Because I feel like a kid on Christmas morning waiting to get to medical school. I have a long way to go in this application cycle and nothing is certain. But I can honostly say: I got a fever! And the only prescription ... is more med school!
 

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From my experience, which is very annecdotal, I think Lizzy's best comment is that the doctors with no release valve end up burning out and calling it quits. ESPECIALLY once they have a nest egg. How many doctors (perhaps especially specalists) do u know who you would say don't like their jobs and are just waiting to retire? Cause lets be honest, a doctor can retire at around 53 if they played their cards right. Heres the thing, a doctor really could keep giving until their almost 70, maybe even longer in a more limited aspect, those 15-20 years of bonus work coming from someone who loves medicine instead of being in it for the money can make the difference between a alumni who falls of teh board and one who is making the med school proud when they are also in a posistion to lead others.
 

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hermit said:
Polio was wiped out after a vaccine was developed regardless of the doc's demeanor.
Polio hasn't been wiped out completely... just mostly. Some docs in Africa and India are having trouble administering the vaccine due to fear and other problems in the area: Pushing to Eradicate Polio

Why do you equate an absence of EC's with studying all day? Just because someone isn't heavily involved in clubs and such does not mean they are always studying. The person who gets the good grades and spends his/her free time with friends or at the bar likely has the same amount of people skills as the person running from club meeting to meeting, perhaps even more.
I agree with this... I don't have many ECs from my first year, and I'm going to make it up this year, without wearing myself thin. While it may look like I was studying all day, I really wasn't... I spent time with my sisters, because our mother was deployed for the first time since I was 3, and I spent time with my boyfriend, because I'm not going to see him much this year (he's studying abroad for the year). I was also the representative for my mom when it came to our house, which is being rented out, so I had to deal with that as well. I very rarely studied, and still made good grades. Does that mean I'm not a good candidate for med school?
 

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hermit said:
Again, if he can cure me, I invite him to treat me like garbage.

One of the most skilled cardiologists at the local hospital is one of the biggest a$$holes you'll meet and is exceedingly condescending. Whenever they have an emergency situation or overly complicated case come in, he gets it. However, for follow ups or routine care, he has hardly any patients. Nobody can stand dealing with him, so even though he may have saved their life, they don't like dealing with his attitude and go elsewhere.
 
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