My confidence is shot and my self-worth is in question right now...

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Lone Kendoka

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I'm normally a very passive and quiet person and the kind who follows orders. I'm currently going through my OBGYN rotation right now and on my evaluations, I was told to be more proactive. So now I'm really trying to do that now by asking questions and asking the residents if I can try to perform different things, like a pelvic exam or speculum exam, but I always struggle with finding the right time to ask and when I do, my voice comes out very soft. I feel like I'm bothering them or getting in the way whenever I try to interact with them. My residents probably have the impression that I'm not very proactive and that I'm more of a follower than I am a leader. And when I try to help out, I always feel like I'm doing more harm than good. It even got to a point where I didn't perform a physical exam on a patient when interviewing her. The physical exam was on my mind, I just don't know why I didn't do it. I really feel like I'm weighing down the people around me than I am contributing.

I hate feeling this way and I want to heed the advice on being more proactive and more of a leader, but when it comes down to it, I freeze up and am hesitant to say anything really. I understand that being placed outside my comfort zone will help me build character, but I just don't understand why I have these hesitations. I don't know how to change the perception people have around me. More than likely it's all in my head, but I don't know how to overcome it. I'm really questioning my worth as a rising physician... What should I do?

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I don't really think you can be a "leader" in your 3rd year. That's more of a senior resident/attending's job. You just show up and soak all that info in, ask questions if you have any if they don't seem too busy and practice anything they let you do. I would mention it to them once that you are willing to do any procedures they let you but I wouldn't nag them about it because OBs especially don't always seem comfortable with allowing students to touch patients too much. I'm having a similar experience too where I'm barely allowed in the L&D room as an observer. I have yet to do a pelvic or a pap on this rotation...
 
It's a double edged sword, tbt. Especially on OB/GYN.
Until you get more comfortable being proactive... Don't push yourself. I've seen failed evaluations from that because it comes off wrong
 
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OB has a well-earned reputation at pretty much every institution in the country. Do NOT judge anything about yourself based on your evals for this rotation. Take what advice seems relevant and improve what you can, but realize it's a very unique situation and seems to draw a particular personality type into its fold.

While I obviously haven't seen you, some general advice that may help based on what I've seen other students do:

1) Fake it. You've got to act confident to have confidence. Kinda like you have to have credit established before you can get credit, or have to have job experience before getting a job. Pretend like you have confidence and eventually it will start to come for real. The truth is you have every right to be there and should be confident to act within the parameters of a student's role. The invasive nature of some of OB/GYN makes parts of this difficult, but be totally confident in the rest and you'll be surprised how many people will let you do more.

2) Work HARD. Be the first one in the door, last one out. Do any scut work with a smile and ask for more when you're done. As you get comfortable, you can be proactive about getting work done before anyone has to ask. Watch and see what gets done and figure out what you can do.

3) Stay in the circle. This one is the silent grade killer. Whenever I'm on rounds, I make sure I'm planted in the circle, usually next to the person in charge, pen/paper in hand taking notes, etc. LOOKING engaged is almost or more important than BEING engaged. Don't be the student leaning against the wall NEXT to the circle; be in it. Even when you bomb a presentation and feel stupid and the next patient isn't even yours -- be in the circle. Be engaged.

4) Be aware of your body language and other non-verbal cues. Don't EVER pull your phone out because it looks like you're texting. No, nobody thinks you're looking stuff up. Go to desktop computers to do that. Stand tall, make eye contact, take notes. Watch how the best students/residents/attendings carry themselves physically and mimic that. Then notice how bored/disinterested students carry themselves. You know how you can tell when your classmates are over it and don't care? People can tell when you feel that way too. Don't let it show.

5) Ask GOOD questions. If you can google it and the answer appears in the top 10 results, it's a bad question. Otherwise, it's probably good. That's my general rule of thumb.

6) Ask if you can do things. Sounds like you're doing this. Keep doing it. Expect them to say 'no' sometimes. Keep asking. Good times are BEFORE going into a room or maybe at the start of clinic. Just ask if you can perform some of the exam maneuvers on appropriate patients. Patients are more amenable to a student performing an invasive exam under supervision if the student acts confident and puts the patient at ease. After the encounter, if there's time, ask for feedback from the resident/attending. You learn more, and it shows you're interested and you care about improving.

Okay, those are a good start!
 
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In other words... Don't do what I did - disappear to a computer to do uworld questions.
God... OB. O ****ing B.
 
I felt like this in third year too. Third year is difficult if you are shy or quiet. It 0% means you are going to be a bad doctor though, you just have to keep trying to project confidence and not to let bad evals bring you down.
 
I would take all this comments into account , they are very insightful
 
Take what advice seems relevant and improve what you can, but realize it's a very unique situation and seems to draw a particular personality type into its fold.
b4gaWr
 
I'm normally a very passive and quiet person and the kind who follows orders. I'm currently going through my OBGYN rotation right now and on my evaluations, I was told to be more proactive. So now I'm really trying to do that now by asking questions and asking the residents if I can try to perform different things, like a pelvic exam or speculum exam, but I always struggle with finding the right time to ask and when I do, my voice comes out very soft. I feel like I'm bothering them or getting in the way whenever I try to interact with them. My residents probably have the impression that I'm not very proactive and that I'm more of a follower than I am a leader. And when I try to help out, I always feel like I'm doing more harm than good. It even got to a point where I didn't perform a physical exam on a patient when interviewing her. The physical exam was on my mind, I just don't know why I didn't do it. I really feel like I'm weighing down the people around me than I am contributing.

I hate feeling this way and I want to heed the advice on being more proactive and more of a leader, but when it comes down to it, I freeze up and am hesitant to say anything really. I understand that being placed outside my comfort zone will help me build character, but I just don't understand why I have these hesitations. I don't know how to change the perception people have around me. More than likely it's all in my head, but I don't know how to overcome it. I'm really questioning my worth as a rising physician... What should I do?


I also started my clinical career on Ob-Gyn, and had similar feelings of worthlessness. Know this, it gets so much better.

No other rotation is like Ob, which can be a bit soul sucking. The nurses are the meanest, nastiest, bunch of malcontents towards students. And, since it is so early in the academic year, there are a bunch of new interns that need to learn the ropes as well. All in all, it makes for a difficult rotation. Your fellow students who rotate through next May will have a much better experience. Sorry.

But take heart, because every other rotation will be better than Ob.

It is important to understand a few crucial things while rotating through the hospital.

1) Sucky people suck. They always will. They will never be nice to you. When someone treats you like crap, never talk to them. You will soon discover that they treat everyone else like crap too, and everybody hates that person.

2) Nurses do not want to be your friend. Stop trying to make them like you, they never will. They are stressed out, frequently understaffed, and have an enormous amount of inter-work drama among themselves (probably more than any other profession, seriously they can put some reality shows to shame). When you become a resident, then they wont leave you alone, because they need you to write orders. It is one of the coolest things about becoming an intern, because all of a sudden you are important. However, novelty wears off when the pager is constantly going off at 3 Am for BPs of 156/98. It's lose-lose. Remember, ALWAYS be professional, because they love to write each other up, especially residents. Always treat them with respect, because they are human beings too.

3) Formal evaluations do not mean too much, as long as you don't get an exceptionally terrible one, which is truly rare. I see piss-poor medical students pass all the time. Poor comments are exceptionally rare, the more likely outcome is that we write no comment at all. We really are not trying to F anyone over. I have seen it happen twice were a bad comment was written, and it was in a situation were the student was such a terrible human being that the idea of them becoming a doctor was too much to stomach (We still passed them though) However, the residents do talk about the really good and really bad students. Specifically they talk about the really bad ones. There are only two things a student can do to earn a bad reputation.
A) Be really really really really really stupid. I don't mean kinda stupid because your inexperienced and you just havn't learned enough yet. That is just the normal process of become a doctor, and we all remember that ourselves (mostly, see #1 for sucky people to avoid). I am talking about incredibly dumb. The student who is unable to apply book knowledge to a real life situation, ever. The student who is taught something several times, but still never seems to get it. The student who does not seem to improve. That kind of thing. 90% of med students will never fall into this category.
B) Be really lazy. This is the student who is not involved in rounds. The one who is late( never EVER be late). The one is always missing ( you may not think we notice, but we see you). The one who makes no effort to improve, or to engage in the rotation they are in. This is the downfall of most students.

4) Trust is everything. When you work with the same resident or attending for awhile they will come to trust you when you show them you are not a *****. Then they will let you take a more active part in patient care. This is the hardest part of 3rd year, because you change rotations every month, and have to re-establish trust all over again. The same process continues into residency, every time I work with a new attending I have to establish trust with them and show them I am not a liability. After all, we are working under their license. If they don't feel comfortable with you taking an active role, respect that. Your time will come. I promise.

I promise you things will get better. They really will. 3rd year is a grind as you try to adjust to new surroundings, new hierarchies, and unclear expectations. It will start to all click into place in about 5-6 months. You will become much more comfortable in the hospital. Your work ethic will show in time.

You are not worthless.
 
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It's a double edged sword, tbt. Especially on OB/GYN.
Until you get more comfortable being proactive... Don't push yourself. I've seen failed evaluations from that because it comes off wrong
Being failed for being proactive?!!?
 
3) Formal evaluations do not mean too much, as long as you don't get an exceptionally terrible one, which is truly rare. I see piss-poor medical students pass all the time. Poor comments are exceptionally rare, the more likely outcome is that we write no comment at all. We really are not trying to F anyone over. I have seen it happen twice were a bad comment was written, and it was in a situation were the student was such a terrible human being that the idea of them becoming a doctor was too much to stomach (We still passed them though) However, the residents do talk about the really good and really bad students. Specifically they talk about the really bad ones. There are only two things a student can do to earn a bad reputation.
A) Be really really really really really stupid. I don't mean kinda stupid because your inexperienced and you just havn't learned enough yet. That is just the normal process of become a doctor, and we all remember that ourselves (mostly, see #1 for sucky people to avoid). I am talking about incredibly dumb. The student who is unable to apply book knowledge to a real life situation, ever. The student who is taught something several times, but still never seems to get it. The student who does not seem to improve. That kind of thing. 90% of med students will never fall into this category.
And you wonder why female OB-Gyn residents are hated across the board.
 
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I don't know how to change the perception people have around me. More than likely it's all in my head, but I don't know how to overcome it.

(So I'm a vet student but I'm on rotations now. Hope you don't mind my two cents!)

The best way to be viewed positively on rotations is to work hard and have a good attitude. Reading never hurts either. You may have to fake some confidence and calm that you don't feel at times, but the more you do that, the easier it becomes to actually be a confident person.

Maybe try setting yourself small goals that can be quantified. For example, one day next week your goal could be to ask three good questions, to ask to do one specific procedure or to find two interesting papers on an upcoming appointment. You could also practice asking questions at home - raise your voice louder each time. I'm a soft-spoken person myself and I find that what I consider normal conversation voice is quieter than most, so when I talk at a "reasonable" volume it feels like I'm speaking pretty loudly. Practicing asking questions - how you want to word them - is also good because when it comes time to ask you don't bumble over your words.

Good luck :)
 
4) Be aware of your body language and other non-verbal cues. Don't EVER pull your phone out because it looks like you're texting. No, nobody thinks you're looking stuff up. Go to desktop computers to do that. Stand tall, make eye contact, take notes. Watch how the best students/residents/attendings carry themselves physically and mimic that. Then notice how bored/disinterested students carry themselves. You know how you can tell when your classmates are over it and don't care? People can tell when you feel that way too. Don't let it show.

5) Ask GOOD questions. If you can google it and the answer appears in the top 10 results, it's a bad question. Otherwise, it's probably good. That's my general rule of thumb.

I have no idea what is a good question. I just ask whatever is on my mind and I think it's a bad thing but I'm trying to stop

for #4, I'm always looking stuff up. If I don't, I will forget to so I just try to google it quick and then read it later. We had no desktop computers available because there were so few for the nurses and residents.
 
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You're just starting 3rd year, no one expects you to be a leader, just be engaged, if they won't let you learn by doing then learn by watching. OB is weird, even if you have an awesome preceptor you may not do much in the way of procedures just because its uncomfortable for the patient and at the end of the day the doctor has a business to run and can't have patients scared off because every time they come in for an exam they get pinched with the speculum. Anyway loosen up a bit, you made it this far, you deserve to be here as much as anyone else and remember that the residents and attendings were once in your shoes. Its good to be a bit gun shy on rotations, the students who are over confident are usually the ones who get slammed on evals because they do stupid **** and need to get brought back down to earth. Finally, remember that there is a reason this process 7++ years long...people question themselves in 3rd year, 4th year, PGY1, 2, 3, and beyond...if you don't you're doing something wrong.
 
dermviser, I agree with these guys, including hooligansnail.
it's not about being proactive, it's the kids who sit around and annoy the crap out of people. someone wanted to do a procedure and kept bothering the resident who eventually snapped and told them to piss off. they then went around the resident's back to the attending who also said no. everyone knew.



I have no idea what is a good question. I just ask whatever is on my mind and I think it's a bad thing but I'm trying to stop

for #4, I'm always looking stuff up. If I don't, I will forget to so I just try to google it quick and then read it later. We had no desktop computers available because there were so few for the nurses and residents.

In general don't ask anything you can google. If your attending says he thinks the pt might have X disease don't ask what X disease is...look it up, then engage him by asking why he thinks it is X rather than Y or why he favors treatment A over treatment B. Your questions should be about his thought process because anything else you can look up on your own. If you look something up and really don't get it then that is fair game as well but make sure to preface it by saying that you read about it and wanted to clarify, etc.
 
dermviser, I agree with these guys, including hooligansnail.
it's not about being proactive, it's the kids who sit around and annoy the crap out of people. someone wanted to do a procedure and kept bothering the resident who eventually snapped and told them to piss off. they then went around the resident's back to the attending who also said no. everyone knew.



I have no idea what is a good question. I just ask whatever is on my mind and I think it's a bad thing but I'm trying to stop

for #4, I'm always looking stuff up. If I don't, I will forget to so I just try to google it quick and then read it later. We had no desktop computers available because there were so few for the nurses and residents.

Jlaw pretty much hit the nail on the head with regards to good versus bad questions.

For looking stuff up, I would either use a desktop if available or write it down on my paper. I would never ever look it up on a phone, especially when the attending is around. No matter what you do, it still looks like you're not paying attention. I've never seen a student typing on their phone and had my first thought be "hmmm, they must be looking something up." It's always "wow, what idiot would text and check Facebook on rounds?!" I'm older than most students but younger than most attendings; if that's my reaction, I can only imagine what some of the older attendings think when they see it.

Again, we're talking about how you are perceived and perception can be very different than reality. College campuses today are besieged with young people who walk around all day staring at their phones. It's not a professional look and can't imagine how doing it in the hospital would result in anything but a poor evaluation. Whenever I hear fellow students say they don't know why they got a bad eval, I think little things like this may be what's happening.

In many ways, 3rd year is like acting and you must prepare like an actor prepares (my apologies to Stanislavski). One of the hallmarks of great actors is their hyperawareness of what they're doing and how they appear. This is a teachable skill and one of the best ways to start working on it is watching other students and residents. How do they appear? Body language? Personal appearance? Gestures? Eye contact? Engagement? Gait? What are they doing with their hands? In pockets? Writing? At their sides? How do they speak? How many 'ums' 'uhs' 'likes' and 'you knows' do they use?

Start noticing what others are doing and what those little things tell you about them. You'll soon start noticing these things in yourself and then you can start to correct what isn't working optimally.
 
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No, I have never heard of someone being failed for being proactive on a rotation.
It's compounded jealousy with a bit of stupidity. I meant failed evaluations not rotation.
 
It's compounded jealousy with a bit of stupidity. I meant failed evaluations not rotation.
Ok. I thought you like saw a patient on your own and did an H&P and actually did something but the OB-Gyn harpies just wanted you to shadow or something and thus failed you on their evals.
 
Ok. I thought you like saw a patient on your own and did an H&P and actually did something but the OB-Gyn harpies just wanted you to shadow or something and thus failed you on their evals.

I haven't seen failing a rotation, but definitely have seen people with "Too aggressive about taking on patients and procedures". One of the many bull**** things that are part and parcel of M3. I am very, very grateful that I managed to get through it relatively unscathed and realize a lot of it was due to luck.
 
I haven't seen failing a rotation, but definitely have seen people with "Too aggressive about taking on patients and procedures". One of the many bull**** things that are part and parcel of M3. I am very, very grateful that I managed to get through it relatively unscathed and realize a lot of it was due to luck.
Did they write in that as part of the summative comments (go in Dean's letter) or formative comments (don't go in Dean's letter)?
 
Did they write in that as part of the summative comments (go in Dean's letter) or formative comments (don't go in Dean's letter)?

Dean's letter comments, with grade of Pass. I think the student said he successfully got it removed but am not sure.
 
3rd year sound horrible... Is there anything good at all about med sch00l?
 
3rd year sound horrible... Is there anything good at all about med sch00l?

I've only done 2 rotations so far, but they've been great. Had a harsh attending for a few days last month but that's just his teaching style and apparently he thought I did rather well. Had a senior resident a few weeks ago who could use some softer edges, not sure how that eval is going to go. But otherwise I've been enjoying myself. Still have yet to do surgery or ob/gyn, though.
 
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for #4, I'm always looking stuff up. If I don't, I will forget to so I just try to google it quick and then read it later. We had no desktop computers available because there were so few for the nurses and residents.

I used to always look things up on my phone (and sometimes I still do) but yes, unfortunately it does tend to look like you are slacking off. I ended up getting an iPad mini for myself. I bought it used for $100.. can't go wrong, and it fits perfectly into a coat pocket. Now when I look things up, it actually looks like I'm looking things up rather than me texting.
 
3rd year sound horrible... Is there anything good at all about med sch00l?

I dont want to make it sound like it's always unfair; generally speaking preceptors are fair in their evaluations and people who consistently do poorly did something to deserve it, but sometimes people do get screwed. There are definitely great rotations, depending on your school - a great department with residents and attendings who like medical students will teach you way more than any review book. But a lot of times you just listen to annoying political rants and get minimal if any teaching.
 
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3rd year sound horrible... Is there anything good at all about med sch00l?
Yes, there is. As can be seen: I love surgery and had a great experience overall in every rotation involving it.
I loved family medicine because I had a great preceptor that trained me like an intern.
I loved psych for the same reasons: i was given patients and solely responsible for their care.
Gyn onc was actually a good experience minus one bad apple resident.
There are just certain things about my year that I hated. It mostly boils down to bull**** admin stuff pulling me away from the clinic/my team.
Seems like fourth year is better so far. But those bad moments still linger.
 
I dont want to make it sound like it's always unfair; generally speaking preceptors are fair in their evaluations and people who consistently do poorly did something to deserve it, but sometimes people do get screwed. There are definitely great rotations, depending on your school - a great department with residents and attendings who like medical students will teach you way more than any review book. But a lot of times you just listen to annoying political rants and get minimal if any teaching.
True. Almost every evaluation has been great. I have one failed evaluation but I don't care because the trend shows the truth. If every evaluation was horrible... Then I would be worried.
 
I haven't seen failing a rotation, but definitely have seen people with "Too aggressive about taking on patients and procedures". One of the many bull**** things that are part and parcel of M3. I am very, very grateful that I managed to get through it relatively unscathed and realize a lot of it was due to luck.

I've done maybe a hundred or so evaluations of MS3s on a surgery service. I've never once seen someone get in trouble for being proactive. I've also never heard of it since I started doing clinical medicine 5 years ago. When people get in trouble for "taking on patients and procedures", that is usually because that student has been told that they aren't doing well at other aspects of their education (like taking a decent H&P) or they are putting other students down/stealing their patients or they think that they should be doing procedures that they are clearly unsafe to be doing. Just because an MS3 complains that they are getting in trouble for being 'proactive' doesn't mean that they were actually being proactive. To say that residents/attendings dislike proactive students kinda defies logic and reason.
 
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I've done maybe a hundred or so evaluations of MS3s on a surgery service. I've never once seen someone get in trouble for being proactive. I've also never heard of it since I started doing clinical medicine 5 years ago. When people get in trouble for "taking on patients and procedures", that is usually because that student has been told that they aren't doing well at other aspects of their education (like taking a decent H&P) or they are putting other students down/stealing their patients or they think that they should be doing procedures that they are clearly unsafe to be doing. Just because an MS3 complains that they are getting in trouble for being 'proactive' doesn't mean that they were actually being proactive. To say that residents/attendings dislike proactive students kinda defies logic and reason.

I would say that people are conflating the word "proactive" with "irresponsible" or "aggressive"

I like you, have never, ever heard of an evaluation faulting a student for being proactive.

I have seen evaluations where students are faulted for not understanding their limits. The example above is a great one - harassing a resident about doing a procedure that clearly the resident didn't feel comfortable allowing them to do, then going behind their back to the attending still in an attempt to do the procedure.

Another example I've had from experience - students taking it upon themselves to discuss a patient's pathology report with them, when that's something that I wouldn't even feel comfortable doing myself, much less letting the student do it.

Or a student telling a patient about a surgical complication and how much blood they lost intraoperatively before the attending had a chance to talk to the patient themselves.

Or a student who pulled a surgical drain without being asked to do so, because and I quote "oh well I thought we always took drains out on day three."

Or a student who, like you said, can't keep information organized and do a decent H&P on the two patients they are already carrying, who tries to take on four more new admits.
 
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I would say that people are conflating the word "proactive" with "irresponsible" or "aggressive"

I like you, have never, ever heard of an evaluation faulting a student for being proactive.

I have seen evaluations where students are faulted for not understanding their limits. The example above is a great one - harassing a resident about doing a procedure that clearly the resident didn't feel comfortable allowing them to do, then going behind their back to the attending still in an attempt to do the procedure.

Another example I've had from experience - students taking it upon themselves to discuss a patient's pathology report with them, when that's something that I wouldn't even feel comfortable doing myself, much less letting the student do it.

Or a student telling a patient about a surgical complication and how much blood they lost intraoperatively before the attending had a chance to talk to the patient themselves.

Or a student who pulled a surgical drain without being asked to do so, because and I quote "oh well I thought we always took drains out on day three."

Or a student who, like you said, can't keep information organized and do a decent H&P on the two patients they are already carrying, who tries to take on four more new admits.

Yeah, i think that's what I meant. Aggressive and not really proactive. Like trying to take the scissors to cut micro suturing when the resident was supposed to since that student can't see **** and cuts it too long or, god forbid, cuts the knot off. I refrain from doing anything during micro procedures aside from watching the end of the line and warning them that it's caught on something. I don't even touch the line unless they tell me to.
 
I've done maybe a hundred or so evaluations of MS3s on a surgery service. I've never once seen someone get in trouble for being proactive. I've also never heard of it since I started doing clinical medicine 5 years ago. When people get in trouble for "taking on patients and procedures", that is usually because that student has been told that they aren't doing well at other aspects of their education (like taking a decent H&P) or they are putting other students down/stealing their patients or they think that they should be doing procedures that they are clearly unsafe to be doing. Just because an MS3 complains that they are getting in trouble for being 'proactive' doesn't mean that they were actually being proactive. To say that residents/attendings dislike proactive students kinda defies logic and reason.

And to be fair I don't know what they were doing on the service; I only saw the comments and heard the student's side of the story which was very possibly massaged. But I wouldn't disbelieve it if a student's actions were wrongly interpreted and he/she were failed.

And you see those evals from resident/attending perspectives. Do you always speak with the student and get their side of the story? I know there have been many, many times where students are blamed for things not entirely their fault. "Stealing patients" is an extremely vague statement that encompasses a lot of possible actions. I was on a rotation where one student accused another of stealing patients and the situation was escalated to the administration; I know for a fact that the situation was just a giant misunderstanding mixed with poor conflict resolution. Which is why I said I got through M3 with a fair bit of luck - I've definitely done things that in retrospect could have been interpreted very, very poorly and gotten me in trouble.
 
And to be fair I don't know what they were doing on the service; I only saw the comments and heard the student's side of the story which was very possibly massaged. But I wouldn't disbelieve it if a student's actions were wrongly interpreted and he/she were failed.

And you see those evals from resident/attending perspectives. Do you always speak with the student and get their side of the story? I know there have been many, many times where students are blamed for things not entirely their fault. "Stealing patients" is an extremely vague statement that encompasses a lot of possible actions. I was on a rotation where one student accused another of stealing patients and the situation was escalated to the administration; I know for a fact that the situation was just a giant misunderstanding mixed with poor conflict resolution. Which is why I said I got through M3 with a fair bit of luck - I've definitely done things that in retrospect could have been interpreted very, very poorly and gotten me in trouble.

i've heard of students who take a whole bunch of patients and leave one or two for the other person which is a pretty lame thing to do
 
And to be fair I don't know what they were doing on the service; I only saw the comments and heard the student's side of the story which was very possibly massaged. But I wouldn't disbelieve it if a student's actions were wrongly interpreted and he/she were failed.

And you see those evals from resident/attending perspectives. Do you always speak with the student and get their side of the story? I know there have been many, many times where students are blamed for things not entirely their fault. "Stealing patients" is an extremely vague statement that encompasses a lot of possible actions. I was on a rotation where one student accused another of stealing patients and the situation was escalated to the administration; I know for a fact that the situation was just a giant misunderstanding mixed with poor conflict resolution. Which is why I said I got through M3 with a fair bit of luck - I've definitely done things that in retrospect could have been interpreted very, very poorly and gotten me in trouble.

#1 re: "Wrongly interpreted." I'm sorry, but it is pretty obvious when people are being proactive and who are doing things at the expense of others. As previously stated, it is completely illogical to penalize proactive people. That is what clerkship directors are looking for. That is one of the most prized attributes of a medical student. This would be like claiming that they failed out of school because they got too good of grades. I feel very comfortable in stating (the blanket statement) that someone who claims to be penalized for being proactive is either being defensive about what really happened, or are oblivious to their detrimental effect on the service, which is just as bad.

#2 I was a clinical medical student less than 3 years ago. I advise MS3s/4s interested in surgery on a regular basis. This isn't an us vs. them, attending/resident vs. student thing. The vast majority of cases are so obvious there is nothing to do. Otherwise, yes, most of the time if there is something overtly negative that isn't objective (like disappearing when on call), multiple people get asked.

#3 Yes, there are misunderstandings, they happen from time to time and the majority of the time they are solved by better communication. However, the VAST, vast, vast majority of situations stem from students who feel entitled. They feel that they are entitled to a grade. They feel entitled to a procedure. They feel entitled to doing XYZ on the service. When this clashes with other people's confidence in them, they get defensive and say things like, "They don't like me because I'm proactive! They are all jealous!"
 
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I used to always look things up on my phone (and sometimes I still do) but yes, unfortunately it does tend to look like you are slacking off. I ended up getting an iPad mini for myself. I bought it used for $100.. can't go wrong, and it fits perfectly into a coat pocket. Now when I look things up, it actually looks like I'm looking things up rather than me texting.
I was just going to say, if you're going to look things up online in front of residents/attendings. Do it with an iPad or like you did an iPad mini. Most people use it for Epic EMR anyways.
 
Another example I've had from experience - students taking it upon themselves to discuss a patient's pathology report with them, when that's something that I wouldn't even feel comfortable doing myself, much less letting the student do it.

...I do this all the time. Lab results, radiology results, pathology results, all of it. I usually give a quick summary of the Impression, then end with "and the doctor will talk to you about this too." My doctor tells me to do this for her patients...guess it's a bad habit to learn?
 
And to be fair I don't know what they were doing on the service; I only saw the comments and heard the student's side of the story which was very possibly massaged. But I wouldn't disbelieve it if a student's actions were wrongly interpreted and he/she were failed.

And you see those evals from resident/attending perspectives. Do you always speak with the student and get their side of the story? I know there have been many, many times where students are blamed for things not entirely their fault. "Stealing patients" is an extremely vague statement that encompasses a lot of possible actions. I was on a rotation where one student accused another of stealing patients and the situation was escalated to the administration; I know for a fact that the situation was just a giant misunderstanding mixed with poor conflict resolution. Which is why I said I got through M3 with a fair bit of luck - I've definitely done things that in retrospect could have been interpreted very, very poorly and gotten me in trouble.
Once you get on the intern/resident side, you'll be amazed how vastly different the student's interpretation is vs. the intern/resident/attending. I think SouthernIM and Mimelim are giving excellent advice with regards to this and if you use their advice as surgeons on other clerkships, you're really good to go. Realize each clerkship has its own culture as well. It's ok if you realize that the culture of the field is not for you. It doesn't excuse you from slacking off - the "I'm going into Peds, so I don't care about Surgery". That's fine if you want to do it, but then don't be surprised if you don't get Honors.

To be fair, I don't think you really get to see the full picture until you're the intern/resident and you're the one with the responsibility of actually getting things done. After you present your 2 patients, you can space out as you much you want during rounds. Interns/Residents can't. They're actually graded on actually getting something done. I think med schools really drop the ball in that before clerkships start, they don't actually transition students well. They just throw them in. I think a lot of the things could be taught in the Physical Diagnosis course, but as far as how useful that will be months and months later, I don't know.

The ones who have the hardest time adjusting are the ones who apply the same rules to the wards that they do in the classroom. The main avenue of learning will no longer be giving you powerpoints and recorded lectures in which you take notes and hone to memory. No one is going to hand hold every little step (and repeat this every month for 12 months). Also, your intern is not your PhD professor to teach you every little thing you need to know and he's definitely not going to teach you how to do a proper H&P w/Assessment and Plan. You know that "life-long learning" shtick your med school talks about? This is it. I was always amazed how certain students would act as if MS-3 clerkships are one big shadowing experience - their H&Ps and A&Ps would be exact copies of the intern's note (as if we can't tell that you're reading my note). They wouldn't read on their patients (I'm talking about UptoDate not board review books for their shelf exam), or learn more about their condition, etc. They would literally check out mentally after rounds.

Oh and also, your intern/resident/attending are on one team. Don't think that you can pit intern against resident, or think that it's ok if the intern/resident don't like you, as long as the attending likes you. The Attending WILL talk to the intern/resident separately on their observations and evaluation of you, and incorporates it into their evaluation.

If you're going to help your intern/resident on things like typing out discharge summaries, make sure you konw how to do them, or look it up. Don't volunteer to do things in the attempt to look "proactive" to your intern, f' it up, and then be shocked when they're angry at you and they have to redo it over again. You're not being proactive, you're just being in the way, and in a specialty like IM, Surgery, etc. where people are exhausted, you won't be getting the gold star for effort. Also use common sense, if your surgery resident is in a trauma and the patient is coding, that's not the time to be asking questions. Either help or if you think you might not be of help, then at least stay out of the way.

I've never had a student steal a patient from another student who normally sees them (maybe bc it's so freakin' obvious). I do think that med students can overhype certain behaviors, like someone being a gunner for answering an attending's question correct (when they were asked) that you didn't. Sorry, that's not being a gunner. That's them knowing their ****, and you not knowing it. Use it as an impetus to improve, rather than as a way to label them as an enemy.
 
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In other words... Don't do what I did - disappear to a computer to do uworld questions.
God... OB. O ******* B.
You disappeared off from Labor and Delivery to do USMLEWorld questions?!?!
 
#1 re: "Wrongly interpreted." I'm sorry, but it is pretty obvious when people are being proactive and who are doing things at the expense of others. As previously stated, it is completely illogical to penalize proactive people. That is what clerkship directors are looking for. That is one of the most prized attributes of a medical student. This would be like claiming that they failed out of school because they got too good of grades. I feel very comfortable in stating (the blanket statement) that someone who claims to be penalized for being proactive is either being defensive about what really happened, or are oblivious to their detrimental effect on the service, which is just as bad.

#2 I was a clinical medical student less than 3 years ago. I advise MS3s/4s interested in surgery on a regular basis. This isn't an us vs. them, attending/resident vs. student thing. The vast majority of cases are so obvious there is nothing to do. Otherwise, yes, most of the time if there is something overtly negative that isn't objective (like disappearing when on call), multiple people get asked.

#3 Yes, there are misunderstandings, they happen from time to time and the majority of the time they are solved by better communication. However, the VAST, vast, vast majority of situations stem from students who feel entitled. They feel that they are entitled to a grade. They feel entitled to a procedure. They feel entitled to doing XYZ on the service. When this clashes with other people's confidence in them, they get defensive and say things like, "They don't like me because I'm proactive! They are all jealous!"
THIS. THIS. THIS. I think sometimes med students can sometimes come in initially of an us vs. them mentality that makes things worse.
 
#1 re: "Wrongly interpreted." I'm sorry, but it is pretty obvious when people are being proactive and who are doing things at the expense of others. As previously stated, it is completely illogical to penalize proactive people. That is what clerkship directors are looking for. That is one of the most prized attributes of a medical student. This would be like claiming that they failed out of school because they got too good of grades. I feel very comfortable in stating (the blanket statement) that someone who claims to be penalized for being proactive is either being defensive about what really happened, or are oblivious to their detrimental effect on the service, which is just as bad.

#2 I was a clinical medical student less than 3 years ago. I advise MS3s/4s interested in surgery on a regular basis. This isn't an us vs. them, attending/resident vs. student thing. The vast majority of cases are so obvious there is nothing to do. Otherwise, yes, most of the time if there is something overtly negative that isn't objective (like disappearing when on call), multiple people get asked.

#3 Yes, there are misunderstandings, they happen from time to time and the majority of the time they are solved by better communication. However, the VAST, vast, vast majority of situations stem from students who feel entitled. They feel that they are entitled to a grade. They feel entitled to a procedure. They feel entitled to doing XYZ on the service. When this clashes with other people's confidence in them, they get defensive and say things like, "They don't like me because I'm proactive! They are all jealous!"

Once you get on the intern/resident side, you'll be amazed how vastly different the student's interpretation is vs. the intern/resident/attending. I think SouthernIM and Mimelim are giving excellent advice with regards to this and if you use their advice as surgeons on other clerkships, you're really good to go. Realize each clerkship has its own culture as well. It's ok if you realize that the culture of the field is not for you. It doesn't excuse you from slacking off - the "I'm going into Peds, so I don't care about Surgery". That's fine if you want to do it, but then don't be surprised if you don't get Honors.

To be fair, I don't think you really get to see the full picture until you're the intern/resident and you're the one with the responsibility of actually getting things done. After you present your 2 patients, you can space out as you much you want during rounds. Interns/Residents can't. They're actually graded on actually getting something done. I think med schools really drop the ball in that before clerkships start, they don't actually transition students well. They just throw them in. I think a lot of the things could be taught in the Physical Diagnosis course, but as far as how useful that will be months and months later, I don't know.

The ones who have the hardest time adjusting are the ones who apply the same rules to the wards that they do in the classroom. The main avenue of learning will no longer be giving you powerpoints and recorded lectures in which you take notes and hone to memory. No one is going to hand hold every little step (and repeat this every month for 12 months). Also, your intern is not your PhD professor to teach you every little thing you need to know and he's definitely not going to teach you how to do a proper H&P w/Assessment and Plan. You know that "life-long learning" shtick your med school talks about? This is it. I was always amazed how certain students would act as if MS-3 clerkships are one big shadowing experience - their H&Ps and A&Ps would be exact copies of the intern's note (as if we can't tell that you're reading my note). They wouldn't read on their patients (I'm talking about UptoDate not board review books for their shelf exam), or learn more about their condition, etc. They would literally check out mentally after rounds.

Oh and also, your intern/resident/attending are on one team. Don't think that you can pit intern against resident, or think that it's ok if the intern/resident don't like you, as long as the attending likes you. The Attending WILL talk to the intern/resident separately on their observations and evaluation of you, and incorporates it into their evaluation.

If you're going to help your intern/resident on things like typing out discharge summaries, make sure you konw how to do them, or look it up. Don't volunteer to do things in the attempt to look "proactive" to your intern, f' it up, and then be shocked when they're angry at you and they have to redo it over again. You're not being proactive, you're just being in the way, and in a specialty like IM, Surgery, etc. where people are exhausted, you won't be getting the gold star for effort. Also use common sense, if your surgery resident is in a trauma and the patient is coding, that's not the time to be asking questions. Either help or if you think you might not be of help, then at least stay out of the way.

I've never had a student steal a patient from another student who normally sees them (maybe bc it's so freakin' obvious). I do think that med students can overhype certain behaviors, like someone being a gunner for answering an attending's question correct (when they were asked) that you didn't. Sorry, that's not being a gunner. That's them knowing their ****, and you not knowing it. Use it as an impetus to improve, rather than as a way to label them as an enemy.

I agree with pretty much everything in both of your posts. I wasnt trying to paint the situation in a student vs resident/attending light if it came off like that. But I am just telling you what I saw - and I'd be willing to bet that many others could give examples of attendings who prefer their med students to be seen and not heard and not doing anything to potentially screw up the service. You can't possibly make a blanket statement given the wide spectrum of rotations that make up the many, many medical schools. Not to mention, mimelim, your service is almost certainly an abberation. You let students do central lines and other procedures many students will never have touched, and it does sound like your service teaches. Not everyone is your service nor do they all appreciate the same qualities.
 
...I do this all the time. Lab results, radiology results, pathology results, all of it. I usually give a quick summary of the Impression, then end with "and the doctor will talk to you about this too." My doctor tells me to do this for her patients...guess it's a bad habit to learn?

Depends on what you mean. You also have to remember I'm looking through the lens of a surgeon - so when I say "pathology" I usually am referring to a surgical pathology report for a patient who (most likely) has cancer. You (a) should not be giving that information to a patient unless you can discuss all the implications for staging and treatment, and (b) should recognize that perhaps the surgeon with an established relationship with the patient would prefer to be the one delivering that information.

"Your potassium today was 3.2 so we are going to give you a little extra potassium" - sure.

"Your chest X-ray looks a little better today" - sure.

"The path report just came back from your operation. The surgical margin was positive, and 7/16 lymph nodes were positive" - ummm.....
 
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I agree with pretty much everything in both of your posts. I wasnt trying to paint the situation in a student vs resident/attending light if it came off like that. But I am just telling you what I saw - and I'd be willing to bet that many others could give examples of attendings who prefer their med students to be seen and not heard and not doing anything to potentially screw up the service. You can't possibly make a blanket statement given the wide spectrum of rotations that make up the many, many medical schools. Not to mention, mimelim, your service is almost certainly an abberation. You let students do central lines and other procedures many students will never have touched, and it does sound like your service teaches. Not everyone is your service nor do they all appreciate the same qualities.
I didn't say what I said was a blanket statement. Are there attendings that want students seen but not heard. Sure. Part of rotations is not being so socially awkward and picking up on social cues well. Your interns/residents can give you great advice on how to present things to particular attendings, so making enemies with them doesn't work in your favor. This is the real world, and what your non-medicine friends have entered a long while back after college vs. you continuing your education in the ivory tower of academia.

A lot of the reason med students aren't given much to do is bc residents/attendings have gotten burned with med students doing things they're obviously not supposed to do -- not running things with their intern/resident, before they do something major (like a cancer diagnosis, for example), and then the intern/resident have to clean up the mess bc you thought you were being "proactive". Southern IM hit it on the head above. Also rules have changed re: student notes and cosigning and thus student notes are even more useless now, esp. with EMR.

I agree, it's nervewracking being thrown from rotation to rotation while everyone on team knows what they're doing bc they've been doing it for a while. You can't let that affect your performance and think that you have to be close to perfect. You're not expected to be.
 
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I didn't say what I said was a blanket statement. Are there attendings that want students seen but not heard. Sure. Part of rotations is not being so socially awkward and picking up on social cues well. Your interns/residents can give you great advice on how to present things to particular attendings, so making enemies with them doesn't work in your favor. This is the real world, and what your non-medicine friends have entered a long while back after college vs. you continuing your education in the ivory tower of academia.

A lot of the reason med students aren't given much to do is bc residents/attendings have gotten burned with med students doing things they're obviously not supposed to do -- not running things with their intern/resident, before they do something major (like a cancer diagnosis, for example), and then the intern/resident have to clean up the mess bc you thought you were being "proactive". Southern IM hit it on the head above. Also rules have changed re: student notes and cosigning and thus student notes are even more useless now, esp. with EMR.

I agree, it's nervewracking being thrown from rotation to rotation while everyone on team knows what they're doing bc they've been doing it for a while. You can't let that affect your performance and think that you have to be close to perfect. You're not expected to be.

That was in reference to mimelim for blanket statement. Nothing in your post I disagree with.
 
Depends on what you mean. You also have to remember I'm looking through the lens of a surgeon - so when I say "pathology" I usually am referring to a surgical pathology report for a patient who (most likely) has cancer. You (a) should not be giving that information to a patient unless you can discuss all the implications for staging and treatment, and (b) should recognize that perhaps the surgeon with an established relationship with the patient would prefer to be the one delivering that information.

"Your potassium today was 3.2 so we are going to give you a little extra potassium" - sure.

"Your chest X-ray looks a little better today" - sure.

"The path report just came back from your operation. The surgical margin was positive, and 7/16 lymph nodes were positive" - ummm.....

Hm, yeah this is almost entirely outpatient that I'm talking about, and it's mostly really basic stuff like your examples. Either way, it's good to get a reminder to be careful with these things.
 
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I agree with pretty much everything in both of your posts. I wasnt trying to paint the situation in a student vs resident/attending light if it came off like that. But I am just telling you what I saw - and I'd be willing to bet that many others could give examples of attendings who prefer their med students to be seen and not heard and not doing anything to potentially screw up the service. You can't possibly make a blanket statement given the wide spectrum of rotations that make up the many, many medical schools. Not to mention, mimelim, your service is almost certainly an abberation. You let students do central lines and other procedures many students will never have touched, and it does sound like your service teaches. Not everyone is your service nor do they all appreciate the same qualities.

You think that students are penalized for being proactive? For starters, it is illogical. Why would somewhere that doesn't teach or is an otherwise ****ty training location make a difference? It doesn't all of a sudden make sense that someone is being helpful and insightful, and people's thoughts are, "lets punish him!" I understand that every training site is going to be different. I don't think what people value when it comes to the basics changes. People aren't going to value not showing up, or yelling at patients just because it is a bad training spot. This is the exact same thing.
 
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Depends on what you mean. You also have to remember I'm looking through the lens of a surgeon - so when I say "pathology" I usually am referring to a surgical pathology report for a patient who (most likely) has cancer. You (a) should not be giving that information to a patient unless you can discuss all the implications for staging and treatment, and (b) should recognize that perhaps the surgeon with an established relationship with the patient would prefer to be the one delivering that information.

"Your potassium today was 3.2 so we are going to give you a little extra potassium" - sure.

"Your chest X-ray looks a little better today" - sure.

"The path report just came back from your operation. The surgical margin was positive, and 7/16 lymph nodes were positive" - ummm.....

Funny. Because my osce had a situation where I delivered bad news.
 
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