My friend was caught cheating

[Drogba]

If, of course, you have no problem doing that.

Assuming that both people were in on it, I couldn't do it, and I'd instantly lose most respect I ever had for a person that does such a thing.

The more jaded/cynical will call me short-sighted for it, but my loyalty lies primarily with those who I care about.

If the friend in the story felt the same way then they would offer to take all the blame, since they are going to get disciplined one way or another. You taking responsibility is not going to lessen the cheaters punishment so you aren't really doing anything to help the person you care about.

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[da8s0859q]

If the friend in the story felt the same way then they would offer to take all the blame, since they are going to get disciplined one way or another. You taking responsibility is not going to lessen the cheaters punishment so you aren't really doing anything to help the person you care about.

Right, I know what you mean, but I was referring more to the idea of selling your "friend" up the river to save your own ass even though you were in on the cheating, too.

 

[Rotinaj]

Yea , same here, but at my school I have noticed people cheat and get away with it, they get As without any real knowledge of the material. Sigh, it is pathetic, I mean what is the satisfaction in earning something when you know deep down that you cheated to get it?

I used to feel this way about the "ethics" of academia before I started taking school seriously:

Society is ticket oriented and businesses use degrees to unfairly discriminate against people without money. Many jobs only require a 4-year degree in anything, and if that is the case, it's simply about work-ethic and nothing more. How is a Biology degree going to help me if I end up becoming a manager at a white collar business? How will calculus ever be applicable at my job if I'm not an engineer, statisticion or working in a scientific field? They just want me to pay my tuition to keep propping up the education industry and put me in debt, so if I cheat, I don't feel I'm being any more "unethical" than the world because they're making me play some silly game that's going to cost me time and money just to earn a decent living.

Obviously I feel somewhat differently now. I still think we are a ticket oriented society, but I also believe that it's really the best route in such a large community. Also, I feel like my personal integrity is worth more than any degree I ever earn. Still, maybe that will help offer some insight to the mindset of a cheater.

 

[bigDee]

I used to feel this way about the "ethics" of academia before I started taking school seriously:

Society is ticket oriented and businesses use degrees to unfairly discriminate against people without money. Many jobs only require a 4-year degree in anything, and if that is the case, it's simply about work-ethic and nothing more. How is a Biology degree going to help me if I end up becoming a manager at a white collar business? How will calculus ever be applicable at my job if I'm not an engineer, statisticion or working in a scientific field? They just want me to pay my tuition to keep propping up the education industry and put me in debt, so if I cheat, I don't feel I'm being any more "unethical" than the world because they're making me play some silly game that's going to cost me time and money just to earn a decent living.

Obviously I feel somewhat differently now. I still think we are a ticket oriented society, but I also believe that it's really the best route in such a large community. Also, I feel like my personal integrity is worth more than any degree I ever earn. Still, maybe that will help offer some insight to the mindset of a cheater.

You claim that a degree may just be used as measure of work ethic. You say that's a silly game so its ok to cheat. Well ok, that's what you call a leap of faith. You're going from one point to another without any reasoning to support it. You have no reasoning to support your claim that its ok to cheat your way through a degree if the degree is only a measure of work ethic.

This post is one huge contradiction. It's a contradiction because cheating is the anti-thesis to a good work ethic. If you cheat your way through, then you are being dishonest in showing what work ethic you have.

 

[Isoprop]

At my school, you're required to buy the solutions manual for the gen chem, physics, and Ochem textbooks so that you can check your homework. It's part of the required materials for class. It's very hard to believe that anyone got busted for using the old edition of an approved textbook and just "took it." I think we're all being played here. Sorry, Isoprop, I don't buy it.

i find your skeptism refreshing. there's a little more to the story and i'm being vague on purpose as to not reveal personal identifiable information. i just wanted to share my story about my experience with "cheating" that could perhaps help the OP.

and i just "took it" because the incident was not reported on transcripts or academic record. the "punishment" was to take a survey class once a week for a quarter. there were appeal options available to me, but i decided it was not worth the lengthy process. i was content that my future medicine career was not jepordized and decided to compromise on the issue.

 

[Rotinaj]

This post is one huge contradiction. It's a contradiction because cheating is the anti-thesis to a good work ethic. If you cheat your way through, then you are being dishonest in showing what work ethic you have.

I'm going to assume that you're challenging the viewpoint I made of the cheater. It was unfair of me to leave this to assumption: The issue of work ethic is moot, as the cheater already believes they have a strong work ethic when it matters. They believe that once they enter the workplace where they aren't in a "meaningless game" they'll be able to succeed there through hard work.

Critical Thinking Tangent:

The cynic views ethics from a standpoint of convenience. If one is cynical enough to believe that the whole system is a meaningless game then what else matters other than personal gain? Also, hypothetically(!), if one were to believe that degree requirements were simply in place to propagate unnecessary education programs, then why would they hold themselves to higher ethical standard than that corrupt (in their mind) institution/system? I still think the logic in a cheater's mind holds up.

What is ethical? Generally, ethics are defined by whatever philosophy is the most generally accepted. Personally, ethics are completely subjective. To a Christian, to try and save someone from eternal damnation in Hell is a gallant endeavor. To an Atheist, that same person is a misguided fool or worse: a deceitful propagandist. Within general modern philosophy, an ethical person would refuse to cheat on the logical assumption that if everyone did cheat, the system would fail to succeed properly. The cheater ethically assumes that everyone does what they can to get ahead, and that it is only fair they be given that same opportunity.

When it comes down to it, it's frightening how subjective "logic" really is. Objectivity really only leads to the values that contradict that which society champions. Pick up a Rand book and read what she calls "the virtue of selfishness" and how in her views, it is immoral to be anything but. The cases she makes are very different from mainstream philosophy, and very convincing. I'm not pushing Rand, but she's someone you should read if you are serious about logic or critical thinking, because chances are, she'll contradict your prejudices.

So in a nutshell: by your ethics, it might be contradictory, but ethics are completely relative.

Whether I believe any of this is anyone's guess. I could just be playing devil's advocate too

 

[bigDee]

Holy hell what are the chances I would have found this thread again. I read my post and didn't look at the username so it was kind of funny to think "hmmm yeah I agree with this guy" then I later see that I'm the one who posted it. I must have forgot about this thread along time ago. I'll make my late reply to the rebuttal anyway.

I'm going to assume that you're challenging the viewpoint I made of the cheater. It was unfair of me to leave this to assumption: The issue of work ethic is moot, as the cheater already believes they have a strong work ethic when it matters. They believe that once they enter the workplace where they aren't in a "meaningless game" they'll be able to succeed there through hard work.

Critical Thinking Tangent:

The cynic views ethics from a standpoint of convenience. If one is cynical enough to believe that the whole system is a meaningless game then what else matters other than personal gain? Also, hypothetically(!), if one were to believe that degree requirements were simply in place to propagate unnecessary education programs, then why would they hold themselves to higher ethical standard than that corrupt (in their mind) institution/system? I still think the logic in a cheater's mind holds up.

You first claim that the cheater wants to achieve personal gain. But you say this as if personal gain and being unethical are mutually exclusive. You are implying that if someone is only doing it for personal gain, then he believes he is being ethical. That isn't always true. It can be in some cases, but for this case, I don't think so. If the cheater sees the education system as just a corrupt game that he must surpass any way he can, even by cheating, then I am sure he realizes that cheating is still unethical, regardless of how much of a game it is. It's unethical for the simple fact that 90% of the people playing this corrupt game are doing it the legitimate way, so surely you are screwing someone over who would otherwise be more qualified than you are. (they aren't more qualified because you cheated your way to the top. if you didn't cheat, you'd be at the bottom and they would be at the top.)

What is ethical? Generally, ethics are defined by whatever philosophy is the most generally accepted. Personally, ethics are completely subjective. To a Christian, to try and save someone from eternal damnation in Hell is a gallant endeavor. To an Atheist, that same person is a misguided fool or worse: a deceitful propagandist. Within general modern philosophy, an ethical person would refuse to cheat on the logical assumption that if everyone did cheat, the system would fail to succeed properly. The cheater ethically assumes that everyone does what they can to get ahead, and that it is only fair they be given that same opportunity.

You're making baseless claims here. You say the cheater assumes that everyone does what they can to get ahead. In reality, someone would have to be heavily deluded to believe that the majority of people cheat at the expense of others. The cheater knows that he is in the minority by cheating, and he will take full advantage of that.

When it comes down to it, it's frightening how subjective "logic" really is. Objectivity really only leads to the values that contradict that which society champions. Pick up a Rand book and read what she calls "the virtue of selfishness" and how in her views, it is immoral to be anything but. The cases she makes are very different from mainstream philosophy, and very convincing. I'm not pushing Rand, but she's someone you should read if you are serious about logic or critical thinking, because chances are, she'll contradict your prejudices.

So in a nutshell: by your ethics, it might be contradictory, but ethics are completely relative.

Whether I believe any of this is anyone's guess. I could just be playing devil's advocate too

I'm not sure how to counter argue this. I think the existence of ethics may be relative, but if anyone is to believe ethics exist, there are a few fundamental morals that mostly everyone agrees on. Whether they follow them or not, most people agree that cheating is wrong. Especially in this situation where you're putting the majority of people at an unfair disadvantage since they are playing the game by the rules.
I'm not so sure on this one. Even if ethics are relative, he still should be ridiculed or punished for what he is doing because he is going against the ethics of the vast majority around him.
Then again, you could say what if there was a society where the vast majority believed stealing was ok and if you didn't steal you should be punished. This is why I don't think ethics are completely subjective because there's no way to justify stealing.

I think you're main argument is that the cheater thinks what he is doing is right. I think that is an unrealistic claim by any stretch so any arguments based on that is a moot point.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Dude? Let it go.

 

[nu2004]

Really? Bumping a thread that has been dead for five months to continue an argument?

 

[Cegar]

It's not even a good argument.

bigDee, you're obviously outmatched.

 

[loganhayes]

after being forced to read and reread that university's student code of conduct, i found out that using a textbook not explicitly permitted by the professor is a breach of academic integrity... even an older or newer edition. go fig.

Geez.. what school is that? I've never heard such "code of conduct." I use external resources (books, wiki, google etc.) all the time to better understand the materials taught in class.

 

[8744]

...In the end, his overall application was too strong for medical schools to reject him, but most top medical schools just overlooked him completely and he barely got into a mediocre medical school...

Because everybody knows how low-tier medical schools are ethically bankrupt.

In fact, my school wouldn't even interview an applicant unless they had prison tatoos or on their personal statement listed as a reason for wanting to be a doctor, "Because sometimes a brother has to shiv' a mother****er."

 

[jhamaican]

You sleep with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

/thread

 

[DoctorDreamer]

You've got to have **** for brains to cheat on exams in college.

The first time I went to college, I was a slacker. I partied all the time and never went to class. I took easy classes, but it didn't matter because I never did the homework or studied. I graduated with a 2.2 GPA.

There was one time that I had to make up an exam in a "coaching theories and principles" class. I don't remember why I missed it, but it was me and two football players (one of whom is in the NFL now) taking the test together. The professor put us in a room together, left, and shut the door.

Nobody said a word. Not me, the slacker. Not the football players, who never have time to study, and aren't necessarily that smart to begin with. But if we had gotten caught, we were at least smart enough to know the consequences.

L-O-V-E your MDApps, btw. My first time.

 

[closer23]

Edit: Didn't notice this was an old, revived thread.

 

[adamber]

My friend was caught cheating off of me on our orgo exam and not only is she getting disciplined but I am too. What should I do?

I work for the honor code at my school, and nothing good can come of it for your friend. For blatent cheating, we will put a letter in their file or delay graduation or suspension or whatever, but regardless, med schools will know about it. You should be alright if you had nothing to do with it and they were just cheating off of you, but make sure you appeal it and stress that.

 

[Handy388]

I am assuming you didn't help her cheat and you don't cheat. So, you didn't do anything wrong. You have no control of another person's actions while you are taking your own test.
Tell him that you were not helping her cheat and tell him that you can take the exam and do well.
And oh yea, dump your loser friend.

sorry if I am bumping up an old thread, but if you use the solutions given in an older text for an assignment, you can probably be busted.

 

[JessicaMorsell]

i have been accused and found "guilty" of academic dishonesty by using an older edition of a textbook for class. of course, i was unaware that using the book was an "unauthorized resource." i had to take a class for 1 hr a week to keep it from my transcripts.

Heinous!

 

[Excelsius]

here's ucla's definition of cheating:

Cheating includes, but is not limited to, the use of unauthorized materials, information, or study aids in any academic exercise; or the failure to observe the expressed procedures or instructions of an academic exercise (e.g., examination instructions regarding alternate seating or conversation during an examination).

the language is very similiar to my former university's code of conduct. this is what they nailed me on. like i said, i don't agree with it, but i didn't fight it.

I was completely surprised by your post and it is hard to believe. We don't know the full story as to what happened to you. The rule above basically says that you can't use unauthorized study aid to solve exercises. It has nothing to do with using whatever book you want to prepare for a course. My guess is that you found an old text that had some of the solutions to the problems you were given and you copied them. Your instructor, who likely knows all about the older editions since s/he taught from them, caught you and was able to verify exactly which edition you used. To me that's logical that such a behavior will be considered cheating because you basically copied all or part of the solutions.

I think that if you had used your old text for information only, your instructor would not be able to identify an exact source for the information to prove an "unauthorized source." Therefore, you must have copied some answer(s) word-for-word and were caught. It is not a good idea to post a partial information here and make it look like as if UCs are these unreasonable schools. You likely did something wrong and you were caught.

If you were really accused of cheating because you used another book to try to understand a concept, then that makes you a coward perhaps. If someone accused me of cheating just because I used a different source to understand a concept, I would file a complaint through the UC board. Unless you had some acerbic professor, I believe that you are not telling us the whole truth.

Another point:in order for a book to be unauthorized, it must be identified as such. This means that unless your professor specifically stated a book that you can't use (or said that you can't use any other books other than the textbook), there would be no way for you to know whether the book is authorized or not and hence that wouldn't constitute cheating. If your professor did make such a claim, then you should have questioned his reasoning before using the book and taken up the matter with the administration before you were accused of anything. That's just common sense and I assume that you have it, so this case is ruled out as well.

One of my friends used to teach at Irvine. It's interesting that she never mentioned about any unauthorized sources. However, what she did say is that some parents call the dean and complain about a grade that their child has received. The instructor is contacted and s/he often changes the grade (usually from B to A). Don't tell me that a school that is so malleable is going to accuse you of cheating on the suspicion that you used some magic book to understand the concepts

Then there is always the troll, however unlikely...

 

[Law2Doc]

I was completely surprised by your post and it is hard to believe. We don't know the full story as to what happened to you. The rule above basically says that you can't use unauthorized study aid to solve exercises. It has nothing to do with using whatever book you want to prepare for a course.

Yeah, this seems to be a misreading of the rule by the prior poster. Cheating is using unauthorized things for "exercises", not just in general. Exercises, based on the parenthetical in UCLA's rules (and any other school with similar rules), pretty clearly means "exams" or other graded assignments. So yeah, using a textbook or study guide for a closed book or take home exam is cheating. Reading a textbook unrelated to an exam or assignment on your own time sure isn't going to be. It's actually unconstitutional to tell you that you cannot read something like this on your own time, so that's a case I would push if that's really what happened, which I doubt.
Most people in med school pick and choose resources that work best for them, many use older editions because of cost constraints. But yeah, you can't bring a book or resource to an exam if it is closed book, or if they designate a specific book you may use in an open book exam, you are stuck with that one. If you violate the rules of an exam, you are cheating.