My Friends Are Gunners..

[Coquette22]

It's the gunners who force their stress onto everyone else, who brag about their grades and insist anyone who scores below them is inferior that everyone hates.

If you want to kill yourself trying to be top in every class, that's your prerogative. Just don't be a jerk about it and you'll be fine.

Quoting for truth. I aim for high grades. I like to be on the honour roll and I'm not usually content just pass or just be average. That said, my world doesn't end if a grade isn't as high as I'd like. I don't kill myself studying. I help people out and I let them help me when I need it. I would never make comments like, "Oh my god I can't believe I only got xx% !!" because I know there are people in my class who would kill for an xx% grade. I shoot high but I don't think I'm a gunner. (And I'd hope that_redhead would give me a well deserved hit over the head if I ever was.)

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[gumtree]

Quoting for truth. I aim for high grades. I like to be on the honour roll and I'm not usually content just pass or just be average. That said, my world doesn't end if a grade isn't as high as I'd like. I don't kill myself studying. I help people out and I let them help me when I need it. I would never make comments like, "Oh my god I can't believe I only got xx% !!" because I know there are people in my class who would kill for an xx% grade. I shoot high but I don't think I'm a gunner. (And I'd hope that_redhead would give me a well deserved hit over the head if I ever was.)

THIS. It doesn't bother me if someone wants to get good grades. It bothers me when they bring all of their anxiety and stress over grades into my life.

As others have said, in undergrad getting good grades is important, but in vet school it's really not unless you have a scholarship or want to apply to competitive residencies. I knew this coming in, but I think that it's a difficult thing for some people to unlearn. I've watched my two friends make themselves physically ill from stressing out over the difference between a B+ and an A-, and I feel kind of bad for them. I'm not saying vet school is supposed to be tons of fun, but if you're routinely having meltdowns around the time of every exam, you're either going to wise up, crash and burn out, or graduate with ZERO hair left on your head. Not to mention you may have really alienated yourself from your classmates by the end.

 

[NStarz]

Since I'm a US citizen, just attending a Canadian school, I'll be going through the match I meant "choice" more loosely - I want to be competitive across many programs and have a better shot to be picked by the programs that I would rank higher.

Ah gotcha! That makes sense Do you know what you're interested in yet?

 

[gfa240]

Like I said; that's true insofar as undergrad grades go. But it's not true - barring the exceptions I listed - for vet school. Like some others have said; you're just going to have to get here and get a year or two in before you understand.

And believe me, I'm more aware than most of how long your grades can follow you.

But if it's super important to you to get As instead of Bs, that's awesome. Whatever motivates you is what motivates you.

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

 

[dyachei]

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

My grades were barely looked at by my employers. In fact, most employers DON'T want 4.0s. There is a belief out there that people that get 4.0 in vet school aren't the easiest to communicate with. Whether or not there is truth to it, most employers worry about it.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

Gonna have to agree with LIS here.
Grades are almost never relevant for jobs.
Internships/residencies different story.

You want to compete for jobs, be personable #1..... and make contacts/connections with people.

The head of Red Bank Vet Hospital was here and he said that even for interships at his hospital the #1 thing he looks for is how well someone gets along with people. He assumes everyone is intelligent, and doesn't care about grades.

Just using this as an example... I have hired lots of people and grades never mattered to me if they weren't glaringly bad.

 

[devyn]

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

It always is so odd to me when people who are not even in vet school yet seem to think they know how everything works when it comes to getting a job/internship/residency after vet school. I am sorry, but when it comes down to it I am going to listen to my professors, my veterinary friends, veterinary employers at hospitals I hope to get a residency or internship at or my friends who just graduated vet school over a pre-vet student. Also I used to work as a recruiter at VCA home office recruiting new veterinarians, so yeah... then as a veterinary hospital manager, so I might have an idea what is looked at when hiring a new vet. And tbh grades really do not come into play at all.

The most important things are having your veterinary license, having good letters of recommendation, your personality and them feeling like they can work with you in their clinic. Being able to connect with people and their pets is HUGE and much more important than grades.

My friend graduated last spring and got hired for a residency at Yale. Her grades were never looked at once. They were more interested in her letters of recommendation and her experience/personality as a whole.

 

[BlackDog17]

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

Exactly, every little thing counts . . . which is why sitting at home alone with your face buried in a textbook 24/7 is not going to help you get a job. No one cares if you have a 4.0 if you have zero communication skills, no clinical experience, no recommendations, no concern for the people around you, and no life outside the classroom. Not to mention if you really think your grades are the only thing that matters in life, you'll probably be so burned out you'll be a nightmare to work with. You may not have top grades, but if you're well rounded, have experience, can work without constant supervision, and generally get along well with others you're going to be a lot more appealing to employers than some gunner who is going to have a meltdown every time someone criticizes them.

 

[that redhead]

Ah gotcha! That makes sense Do you know what you're interested in yet?

Lab animal They actually just started being part of the match this year, so it should be interesting to see how it goes!

 

[DVMDream]

I feel like this has been the theme around here lately...

It is starting to get exhausting to be honest. Especially when a pre-vet asks you a question (not in this thread but in other threads this has happened) and you give an answer that they don't like or agree with and they argue with you or tell you that you are wrong.... if you are going to be like that, don't ask. The vast majority of us around here are very friendly and willing to help but lately with some of the attitudes a few of us are getting tired of responding just to get yelled at or told that we don't know what we are talking about, which then makes the good veterans around here even less likely to respond because why should they? You don't have to agree but be respectful, say thank you and move on if you disagree. There is a lot of collective knowledge from this group of people all with various experiences and backgrounds and if we keep getting rude remarks back or people acting like we don't know anything, eventually we will stop responding and that knowledge and experience that could be shared dies; and that would be sad.

 

[SV88]

but.. but... but... veterinary medicine is all cuddly puppies right? and awesome snuggly kittens, and some cute ponies and maybe even a unicorn?!

 

[DVMDream]

but.. but... but... veterinary medicine is all cuddly puppies right? and awesome snuggly kittens, and some cute ponies and maybe even a unicorn?!

I don't know about cuddly puppies and snuggly kittens...

But most definitely unicorns that poop glitter and lots of dragons, especially flying dragons we see them all the time.

 

[SV88]

I don't know about cuddly puppies and snuggly kittens...

But most definitely unicorns that poop glitter and lots of dragons, especially flying dragons we see them all the time.

Puff the magic dragon... Wait say what?!

Vet school is all about teaching future vets how to wisely spend their riches too, right? Keep it to one house per coast and one international villa, people. DO NOT FLAUNT YOUR STATUS.

 

[gfa240]

Exactly, every little thing counts . . . which is why sitting at home alone with your face buried in a textbook 24/7 is not going to help you get a job. No one cares if you have a 4.0 if you have zero communication skills, no clinical experience, no recommendations, no concern for the people around you, and no life outside the classroom. Not to mention if you really think your grades are the only thing that matters in life, you'll probably be so burned out you'll be a nightmare to work with. You may not have top grades, but if you're well rounded, have experience, can work without constant supervision, and generally get along well with others you're going to be a lot more appealing to employers than some gunner who is going to have a meltdown every time someone criticizes them.

Absolutely! No one is going to hire a person with 4.0 without people/communication/life skills. That goes without saying. But grades are also a factor. People have a hard time hiring someone with a 2.4 GPA. Its just how it is.

 

[krist]

Absolutely! No one is going to hire a person with 4.0 without people/communication/life skills. That goes without saying. But grades are also a factor. People have a hard time hiring someone with a 2.4 GPA. Its just how it is.

Unless you're applying for a job as a veterinarian...most people will tell you not to even put your GPA on your resume when applying for GP jobs after graduation. Like several of the others have said, we all know what we're talking about when it comes to vet school stuff, and grades have no correlation with ability to be a good vet. I've talked with many practice owners throughout the years, asking them what they look for when hiring an associate and none of them care about grades one bit. They assume if you can pass vet school and the NAVLE then you know enough of the basics. I'm sure Dyachei and others can comment on how much learning you do after vet school, too.

 

[sunshinevet]

Absolutely! No one is going to hire a person with 4.0 without people/communication/life skills. That goes without saying. But grades are also a factor. People have a hard time hiring someone with a 2.4 GPA. Its just how it is.

No, they don't.

Veterinary employers see it like this - you got into vet school, therefore you are smart. You passed vet school, therefore you are a vet.

That is about as far into it as grades play when hiring for private practice. Whether it was a 4.0 or a 2.4. They walk into an interview equal - the more personable, better communicator with more clinical experience and better personality wins.

Now stop pretending like you know. Come back and talk to us when you are actually close to graduating vet school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah, the didactic part of vet school really doesn't teach you much about how to be a good vet at all, and I'm not even talking about communication and stuff either, this is in terms of clinical knowledge. Even if you were an excellent student and got great grades and retained everything during your classroom years, you would still be worthless in a clinic. Seriously scary what little of what you see actually see in daily general practice they teach you. Practice is really not something you can do by following a textbook, and unfortunately schools are too busy making you memorize facts during their classroom years that they don't do a great job teaching you how to practice. Of course you need a good knowledge base to be a good clinician, but you only need a fraction of the knowledge they throw at you in order to be a good doctor because you get graded on soooo much useless trivia. Your innate and acquired ability to do a good physical exam and make good judgment calls based on what you know at times you're uncertain is soooo much more important. Because the fact is in vet med, no one, not even someone with the most perfect memory with all the info in the world can ever be certain about what's going on in a lot of our patients. That's partly because not everything is known (vet med largely works on anecdotal evidence, and not so much science... AND, not every owner will allow you to perform all the diagnostics you need to have to get the information you need to know). So a B student who has a good grasp of relevant material in her type of practice will be just as good as an A student who might know more about sh** you will never come across in any of your patients ever (which unfortunately is a huge part of your grading in didactic years). No one practitioner will ever need any more than 50% of what is taught in vet school (and that's being generous... I'd wager it's closer to 25-30%). And if you specialize, that number gets even smaller... Sure, specialists learn a toooon more about their field, but that is knowledge gained in residency, NOT your classroom years in vet school.

To give people who don't quite believe what other vets/vet students are saying a better idea, take me as an example. I'm someone who tests super well, and I'm someone who can cram half a semester of info for a given class in 2 days and retain that info for years better than most people. So I've gotten pretty much As in my horse related stuff, and actually score just as well in horses for practice board exams as I do small animal. I can do technical stuff (catheter placement, intubation, ng tube placement, etc...) just fine, so I'm not incompetent either. But you bring me a sick/lame horse, and I won't have a clue what to do with it. The only thing I could probably do right for a horse is refer it, or euthanize it (though I'm sure a horse euthanasia done by me would end very poorly so actually I prob shouldn't do that either....). So really, all that equine information clogging my brain is a huge waste. I could totally be a C student in horses and I'd be no worse for the wear. I'm sure the equine oriented person in my class with the worst gpa will be an infinitely better equine clinician than I will ever be.

 

[SV88]

I'm only a tech right now but FWIW my practice recently hired a new grad. She's stellar we love her but her first month was rough. She had not seen a basic hot spot or yeast otitis since starting school She was always checking with our other vets to make sure it was a common ailment and not some odd fungus. She said she could deal with many insane cases from the teaching hospital but was always second guessing herself on whether or not that mass wAs just a cyst. You're used to seeing the weird complicated cases in the VTH not the usual GP problems. She's awesome and in her groove now but just food for thought about relevance in the GP world.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm only a tech right now but FWIW my practice recently hired a new grad. She's stellar we love her but her first month was rough. She had not seen a basic hot spot or yeast otitis since starting school She was always checking with our other vets to make sure it was a common ailment and not some odd fungus. She said she could deal with many insane cases from the teaching hospital but was always second guessing herself on whether or not that mass wAs just a cyst. You're used to seeing the weird complicated cases in the VTH not the usual GP problems. She's awesome and in her groove now but just food for thought about relevance in the GP world.

Yup, that's exactly what I was talking about!

I'm sure ill have a lot of those moments, but some of that can be mitigated by doing elective rotations in GP, dermatology, demtistry, high volume spay/neuter, etc... if you know you're going into GP. I made lists of things that I would be embarrassed not to know how to treat/do as a GP, and planned my electives around those. I've known new grads looking for gp jobs who were very confused about vaccines and flea/tick control... and it's partly a product of how we're taught. We get tested on this stuff maybe once, and that's it. I'm sure these people knew the material at some point and got it right on the exam. But that's why gpa really doesn't say anything about how valuable someone will be in practice.

 

[dyachei]

Unless you're applying for a job as a veterinarian...most people will tell you not to even put your GPA on your resume when applying for GP jobs after graduation. Like several of the others have said, we all know what we're talking about when it comes to vet school stuff, and grades have no correlation with ability to be a good vet. I've talked with many practice owners throughout the years, asking them what they look for when hiring an associate and none of them care about grades one bit. They assume if you can pass vet school and the NAVLE then you know enough of the basics. I'm sure Dyachei and others can comment on how much learning you do after vet school, too.

First of all, good to see you posting again.

Second of all, exactly. If you put your GPA on your resume, it sends a message that most employers don't want. This is directly from recruiters. They do not want 4.0s because of the possible implication that you may have a harder time with communication. They recommend not putting your GPA on there AT ALL. The ones that do give a GPA tend to be trying to "show off". So no, for general jobs, your GPA doesn't matter. And I attend CE and do research all the time. Sometimes we didn't cover it in detail in class (or at all), sometimes you forget, and sometimes new things happen

 

[dyachei]

Yup, that's exactly what I was talking about!

I'm sure ill have a lot of those moments, but some of that can be mitigated by doing elective rotations in GP, dermatology, demtistry, high volume spay/neuter, etc... if you know you're going into GP. I made lists of things that I would be embarrassed not to know how to treat/do as a GP, and planned my electives around those. I've known new grads looking for gp jobs who were very confused about vaccines and flea/tick control... and it's partly a product of how we're taught. We get tested on this stuff maybe once, and that's it. I'm sure these people knew the material at some point and got it right on the exam. But that's why gpa really doesn't say anything about how valuable someone will be in practice.

I really enjoyed having community practice as a required rotation for this reason

 

[DVMDream]

Absolutely! No one is going to hire a person with 4.0 without people/communication/life skills. That goes without saying. But grades are also a factor. People have a hard time hiring someone with a 2.4 GPA. Its just how it is.

It is not "just how it is". You THINK that is how it is and so therefore you state it as fact. You have someone who is an actual veterinarian telling you that no that is not how it works. You have a few vet students that are current final years going through the job application process telling you that grades do not matter. You have a few vet students that have discussed this with professors and vets in the field that hire new vets telling you no, that is not how it works. You have people that have worked for years in the veterinary industry as techs, practice managers, etc who have interviewed and watched a new vet coming in telling you that grades did not matter. Perhaps it is time to listen to those with experience behind them, those who have been through the process, those that really do "know how it is"; instead of spewing off whatever you believe as fact because spewing off what you think or believe to be true is how people get bad information that is not accurate.

 

[gugoodoll]

This thread keeps reminding me of a friend (now a vet) who had a roommate back in vet school who was top 10 in her class but personality wise, NOT very likeable. She was just socially awkward and I can definitely see now that she probably didn't(doesn't?) have the best communication skills. Upon graduation my friend told me she did not get into any internships she had applied for. I'm not sure what she did afterwards but I think she eventually did a residency. My friend was in the middle of the pack and had no trouble getting an internship, then an ECC residency at U Wisc.

 

[LetItSnow]

I have no intention of convincing you. When its time for you to apply for your first job/residency/internship,etc. and you have to compete with 100s of applicant for the same position, you will see how every little thing counts.
Especially with the way the market is right now with excess of veterinarians out there.

When I apply for my first job? I've already finished one 15-year career and had real-world jobs before it. I'm pretty sure I know what it's like to "apply for my first job" (and second, and third).

You apparently missed the part where I acknowledged that grades can be a part of residency/internship applications. There's no doubt that's true. They aren't as important as YOU think they are, but yes, they do matter for residency and internship (and scholarship) applications.

But with regards to jobs, you are flat-out wrong, and you are misleading people. If you get through vet school and pass boards and go to start applying for jobs, your GPA simply will not matter.

Believe what you want. I think that you feel like grades SHOULD matter for everything, so you're blindly convincing yourself that they DO matter for everything. But you're just not correct.

Anyway, you're a pre-vet looking for advice. I gave you informed advice, as have others. It's now up to you to decide whether to take it or ignore it.

 

[LetItSnow]

But you bring me a sick/lame horse, and I won't have a clue what to do with it. The only thing I could probably do right for a horse is refer it, or euthanize it (though I'm sure a horse euthanasia done by me would end very poorly so actually I prob shouldn't do that either....). So really, all that equine information clogging my brain is a huge waste. I could totally be a C student in horses and I'd be no worse for the wear. I'm sure the equine oriented person in my class with the worst gpa will be an infinitely better equine clinician than I will ever be.

Hahahahahaha. OMG, so true. I got straight A's this semester in all our large-animal classes. But you don't want me within a half mile of a sick horse. I got largely B's in our small animal courses; but put me in ECC with an incoming patient and I'll be fine digging into the case and starting to work it up. My diff dx list and my diagnostic plan won't be perfect - I'm still just a dumb third-year student - but it'll be workable. My plan with the horse would be "rule out impaction colic and then euthanize." That's probably not what horsey people really want.

Grades just aren't a useful indicator of professional competency/skill/strength. There is too much difference between competency and academic accomplishment, and there's too much variability in how classes are assessed, for grades to be a reliable measure.

 

[onisteverina]

This might be a really silly question.. So, I gather that grades may only play a role in residency opportunities.. what about where you actually go to school? It is beneficial to be coming from a higher ranked school when applying for a residency program? Or does that not make a difference once you get your DVM? I got the impression that when applying to vet school the undergrad institution didn't really matter as long as it was a 4 year.. so now I'm wondering about residencies. Sorry if this is silly/annoying.. I'm just curious.

 

[dyachei]

This might be a really silly question.. So, I gather that grades may only play a role in residency opportunities.. what about where you actually go to school? It is beneficial to be coming from a higher ranked school when applying for a residency program? Or does that not make a difference once you get your DVM? I got the impression that when applying to vet school the undergrad institution didn't really matter as long as it was a 4 year.. so now I'm wondering about residencies. Sorry if this is silly/annoying.. I'm just curious.

Makes little to no difference

 

[Minnerbelle]

Makes little to no difference

Pretty sure it makes even less of a difference than undergrad institution for vet school

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I have a few questions on all of the points you guys have been making:
1. If the first two years of vet school are mostly cramming information that you will not use, do you feel that there should be a change in curriculum?
2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have made it seem?

I ask the first to see how you guys feel about today's veterinary education. I've talked to a vet who seems pretty unhappy about the direction things are going. I ask the second because it doesn't make sense to me yet. I cannot imagine myself hesitating to interview a potential hire because they have a GPA and might "lack communication skills." Granted, I have never been in that position. I understand that there are absolutely people out there who lack communication skills though.

I definitely agree that grades simply aren't a good indicator of a student's capabilities. I've spoken my mind about how I disagree with most grading systems in general on an old thread. I feel that they simply do not work. My boss has told me that she'd rather hire a vet assistant with a 2.5 than a 4.0 if the former was easier to work with/more passionate/etc. Now, that is not hiring a doctor, but the same principle clearly applies.

 

[krist]

I have a few questions on all of the points you guys have been making:
1. If the first two years of vet school are mostly cramming information that you will not use, do you feel that there should be a change in curriculum?
2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have said?

I ask the first to see how you guys feel about today's veterinary education. I've talked to a vet who seems pretty unhappy about the direction things are going. I ask the second because it doesn't make sense to me yet. I cannot imagine myself hesitating to interview a potential hire because they have a GPA and might "lack communication skills." Granted, I have never been in that position. I understand that there are absolutely people out there who lack communication skills though.

I definitely agree that grades simply aren't a good indicator of a student's capabilities. I've spoken my mind about how I disagree with most grading systems in general on an old thread. I feel that they simply do not work. My boss has told me that she'd rather hire a vet assistant with a 2.5 than a 4.0 if the former was easier to work with/more passionate/etc. Now, that is not hiring a doctor, but the same principle clearly applies.

1. I definitely think a change in curriculum could be beneficial, but it is hard for me to comment on what would work better. I do very well in vet school but I assure you I have retained little practical knowledge...even after a year and a half of vet school I learned and retained more working as a tech for 3 years than I have in vet school. From discussions with friends of mine, we all agree that we learn better while doing (like I did working) than cramming for a test (I just happen to be pretty good at cramming and memorization). It is probably too early to tell but comparing a traditional curriculum to a PBL like Western's would be helpful. I also think, Missouri at least, needs to do a way better job of teaching "soft skills" like client communication. They are trying though and we are lucky to have some administrators and faculty who really embrace their importance.

2. I don't think anyone said there is a link between high GPA and poor communication...I think that people think that there is, which is why employers may not want to hire someone with a 4.0 for a GP position. What I have been told is...the person hiring you most likely was not top in their class, but they probably remember who was and they were probably the ones calling them "gunners" and may not have liked them much. Also, I think vet schools are doing a much better job than they used to of accepting people who have people skills as well as study skills, but I don't think that necessarily used to be the case, so again, it may be a thing from the past where the people with the better grades tended not to be the best communicators. I like that grades aren't a factor for jobs.

 

[devyn]

I have a few questions on all of the points you guys have been making:
1. If the first two years of vet school are mostly cramming information that you will not use, do you feel that there should be a change in curriculum?
2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have said?

I ask the first to see how you guys feel about today's veterinary education. I've talked to a vet who seems pretty unhappy about the direction things are going. I ask the second because it doesn't make sense to me yet. I cannot imagine myself hesitating to interview a potential hire because they have a GPA and might "lack communication skills." Granted, I have never been in that position. I understand that there are absolutely people out there who lack communication skills though.

I definitely agree that grades simply aren't a good indicator of a student's capabilities. I've spoken my mind about how I disagree with most grading systems in general on an old thread. I feel that they simply do not work. My boss has told me that she'd rather hire a vet assistant with a 2.5 than a 4.0 if the former was easier to work with/more passionate/etc. Now, that is not hiring a doctor, but the same principle clearly applies.

Point 1... it's not IMO that you won't use the information... it is that in normal practice and talking to my dad who is a doctor and went through med school apparently this is similar - you will use the info, BUT and a big BUT.... you will have books and you will look up the stuff you memorized the ****e out of because tbh there is no reason to know how to identify a certain type of fly by its wing pattern in veterinary medicine or a egg of a parasite from memory.... you will have a book and when looking at a sample you can reference said book to make your diagnosis... that is standard to practice... there is no critical timeline for stuff like that really... there is not....

I think parasitology and microbiology and a lot of a the topics that cover a ****e ton of info that you need to understand YES, but you do not need to know from memory.... that is where the issue comes into play...

So no I do not think there needs to be a change in curriculum... but I do think there needs to be a change in the way they test on it - at least over in the EU/UK.....

Point 2... I think when it comes to medical or veterinary school where getting very high grades is extremely tough - almost impossible - the stereotype does come into play.... because the people who do get those grades tend to have issues with social interaction.... often people who are extremely book smart or who spend all their time with their noses in the books have no idea how to relate to clients which is not very helpful... I was a straight A student prior to vet school.... I learned fairly quickly that was not possible after I started.... I was really hard on myself at first... beat myself up... but then I had to just realize that passing had to be enough.... cause I am working my ass off day in and day out, I am learning the information, I am trying my best... and I know I am not stupid..... do I slack? hell NO! but sorry once you get into vet school you might realise your A status is not feasible anymore and you have to come to terms with it....

I have worked for 7+ years after undergrad in a "adult" job... never needed to show my GPA... I have worked in the vet business since I was 16 yrs old.... I know how to deal with clients... I understand what the job entails... and my professor says point blank when recommending students he is going to recommend the ones with the lower GPAs who he knows can relate to clients, as the majority of students with the high gpas have never gone anywhere or done anything...

it is a stigma and it is often true....

 

[DVMDream]

I have a few questions on all of the points you guys have been making:
1. If the first two years of vet school are mostly cramming information that you will not use, do you feel that there should be a change in curriculum?
2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have made it seem?

1. You will use the information, some of it, just not the majority of it. It is impossible to remember all of pharmacology or parasitology or virology, etc, etc. Veterinarians have books to reference for a reason... you can find some type of pharmacology book in every vet clinic, because it is impossible to remember everything. I don't think there needs to be a change in curriculum exactly, it is good to have seen the drugs and their names and to maybe be able to go, "yeah I recognize that", but I think there might need to be a change in the thinking that vet students can/should remember everything. There needs to be a change on examining to relate to that recognition that a vet student simply can not recall everything; it is sad when my professor can't remember a mechanism of action for a drug but she expects us to know it.

2. I think it just comes from the idea that people who have good grades most commonly have to spend a greater amount of time reading/studying and this takes away time from learning the more practical or clinical aspect of being a vet. I worked with a vet that was very book smart, bragged about being top of his class, etc. He was impossible to work with especially on a busy day. He could not handle stress at all, he would get antsy/angry and start yelling. If an instrument wasn't working for him, he would throw it. He could not talk to clients without using big words and making them confused. He was very smart and knew exactly what he had been taught, but he could not relate to people/clients. He was also not great about handling the patients, often being too rough with them. It was as if the medicine had kind of gone to his head, he cared a lot about the medicine, figuring out what was wrong and how to treat it that he lost sight of the fact that he was taking care of a dog or cat and a concerned owner and was just caught up in fixing the disease and not really caring for the patient or the owner. Obviously this isn't going to be true across the board, but I think this is what concerns a lot of employers.

 

[tropictuco]

I understand why that stigma is there, but I think that, like with most things in life, it needs to be taken in moderation.

Let's just even take undergrad GPA for example. I also have heard of employers "discriminating" against people with high GPAs because they're worried about social skills. I guess it's just a little frustrating because I have had it drummed into my head since I was a young'in that good grades do nothing more and nothing less than simply give you options. Let's take my brother for example. He had a mathematical major at a school that is well-known for being an excellent program in his major. Just when he got too deep to go back, he realized he hated it. I remember at some point him trying to convince us all that he could just graduate with a 2.0 because he's "for sure not going back to school and employers will never look at his grades". But he got his butt in gear and graduated with a 3.3. Sure enough, he had a series of jobs where nobody ever cared about his GPA, just work experience, people skills, etc. But then when he decided "oh wait j/k I want to get my master's in a different mathematical subject", sure enough that GPA came roaring back, this time to help him get into a highly competitive master's program.

I guess what I'm saying is (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here somewhat) we try to get the best grades we can simply because it tends to give us the best options in life. More likely to get into vet school in the first place, more likely, if we're pursuing residencies, to get the one we prefer. I, like redhead, am interested in a residency and so grades are a high focus for me right now. Does that mean I'm antisocial? No. Does that mean I can't work well in a professional setting? No way. And, even more crucially, does this mean I'm going to have a meltdown if I just can't cut it and get the grades I need for a residency? No! I'll figure something else out. I just want the option to be there, if there's any way it can be.

I think it comes down to the fact that you can't take shortcuts when evaluating people's applications for any major position, student or employee. Just as I think certain GPA cutoffs for vet school are not right because they don't consider the whole applicant, GPA cutoffs the other way (not taking people with high GPAs automatically) for jobs also do applicants and employers a disservice. Any employer who decides an applicant is not suitable for the sole reason of his/her GPA being "too high", IMO, is being short-sighted. Not that high GPA people deserve a higher chance than low GPA people when applying for the position, just it's important to remember that there are many reasons for people to get high GPAs, and not all of them translate poorly into a professional atmosphere.

 

[SV88]

OI have to read more replies but when my practice was interviewing for a new grad vet we saw dozens of candidates. We seriously considered a girl who was 3rd in her class with a stellar GPA (3.89? Or so) and instead we went with a vet that was down to earth with a farm background. Even thou we are small animal GP it was important to us to have a well rounded "chill" associate in our arsenal that wouldn't worry about crazy clients or what was thrown at her. Not to knock the other girl but she was very reserved and quiet and demure and with our clientele we really need someone who can present a strong but comfortable front because most clients are highly educated and rich - they tend to question a lot of things bevausentheybwant to be sure they're doing it right. Our associate has been greatly received and we adore her.

I also want to add our last vet we hired before the baby vet graduated top 5 in her class a few years back and she is absolutely a pleasure. She's so knowledgable but wonderful with the clients and she's my favorite vet I've ever worked with (5 clinics and years behind me)

 

[dyachei]

I understand why that stigma is there, but I think that, like with most things in life, it needs to be taken in moderation.

Let's just even take undergrad GPA for example. I also have heard of employers "discriminating" against people with high GPAs because they're worried about social skills. I guess it's just a little frustrating because I have had it drummed into my head since I was a young'in that good grades do nothing more and nothing less than simply give you options. Let's take my brother for example. He had a mathematical major at a school that is well-known for being an excellent program in his major. Just when he got too deep to go back, he realized he hated it. I remember at some point him trying to convince us all that he could just graduate with a 2.0 because he's "for sure not going back to school and employers will never look at his grades". But he got his butt in gear and graduated with a 3.3. Sure enough, he had a series of jobs where nobody ever cared about his GPA, just work experience, people skills, etc. But then when he decided "oh wait j/k I want to get my master's in a different mathematical subject", sure enough that GPA came roaring back, this time to help him get into a highly competitive master's program.

I guess what I'm saying is (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here somewhat) we try to get the best grades we can simply because it tends to give us the best options in life. More likely to get into vet school in the first place, more likely, if we're pursuing residencies, to get the one we prefer. I, like redhead, am interested in a residency and so grades are a high focus for me right now. Does that mean I'm antisocial? No. Does that mean I can't work well in a professional setting? No way. And, even more crucially, does this mean I'm going to have a meltdown if I just can't cut it and get the grades I need for a residency? No! I'll figure something else out. I just want the option to be there, if there's any way it can be.

I think it comes down to the fact that you can't take shortcuts when evaluating people's applications for any major position, student or employee. Just as I think certain GPA cutoffs for vet school are not right because they don't consider the whole applicant, GPA cutoffs the other way (not taking people with high GPAs automatically) for jobs also do applicants and employers a disservice. Any employer who decides an applicant is not suitable for the sole reason of his/her GPA being "too high", IMO, is being short-sighted. Not that high GPA people deserve a higher chance than low GPA people when applying for the position, just it's important to remember that there are many reasons for people to get high GPAs, and not all of them translate poorly into a professional atmosphere.

The thing is it doesn't matter if it is unfair or not, it happens. No one is saying we agree that all 4.0 students are antisocial or have communication problems. We are saying that there is a stereotype that employers seem to believe. Also, the people that put their GPA on their resumes seem to be the ones that are showing off. Recruiters, employers, and experts in the field recommend not putting your GPA on your CV/resume

 

[StartingoverVet]

I understand why that stigma is there, but I think that, like with most things in life, it needs to be taken in moderation.

Let's just even take undergrad GPA for example. I also have heard of employers "discriminating" against people with high GPAs because they're worried about social skills. I guess it's just a little frustrating because I have had it drummed into my head since I was a young'in that good grades do nothing more and nothing less than simply give you options. Let's take my brother for example. He had a mathematical major at a school that is well-known for being an excellent program in his major. Just when he got too deep to go back, he realized he hated it. I remember at some point him trying to convince us all that he could just graduate with a 2.0 because he's "for sure not going back to school and employers will never look at his grades". But he got his butt in gear and graduated with a 3.3. Sure enough, he had a series of jobs where nobody ever cared about his GPA, just work experience, people skills, etc. But then when he decided "oh wait j/k I want to get my master's in a different mathematical subject", sure enough that GPA came roaring back, this time to help him get into a highly competitive master's program.

I guess what I'm saying is (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here somewhat) we try to get the best grades we can simply because it tends to give us the best options in life. More likely to get into vet school in the first place, more likely, if we're pursuing residencies, to get the one we prefer. I, like redhead, am interested in a residency and so grades are a high focus for me right now. Does that mean I'm antisocial? No. Does that mean I can't work well in a professional setting? No way. And, even more crucially, does this mean I'm going to have a meltdown if I just can't cut it and get the grades I need for a residency? No! I'll figure something else out. I just want the option to be there, if there's any way it can be.

I think it comes down to the fact that you can't take shortcuts when evaluating people's applications for any major position, student or employee. Just as I think certain GPA cutoffs for vet school are not right because they don't consider the whole applicant, GPA cutoffs the other way (not taking people with high GPAs automatically) for jobs also do applicants and employers a disservice. Any employer who decides an applicant is not suitable for the sole reason of his/her GPA being "too high", IMO, is being short-sighted. Not that high GPA people deserve a higher chance than low GPA people when applying for the position, just it's important to remember that there are many reasons for people to get high GPAs, and not all of them translate poorly into a professional atmosphere.

Kind of interesting...because I didn't really think this was the case in undergrad....but then on reflection thought that it will be very industry and even more employer specific. In my industry, we hired a lot of the best and brightest, but also a lot of jus hard working motivated types...it really does depend. To some degree grades are much more an indication of maturity and hard work in undergrad. Post bacc, that is not true.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Also, the people that put their GPA on their resumes seem to be the ones that are showing off. Recruiters, employers, and experts in the field recommend not putting your GPA on your CV/resume

This

 

[tropictuco]

The thing is it doesn't matter if it is unfair or not, it happens. No one is saying we agree that all 4.0 students are antisocial or have communication problems. We are saying that there is a stereotype that employers seem to believe. Also, the people that put their GPA on their resumes seem to be the ones that are showing off. Recruiters, employers, and experts in the field recommend not putting your GPA on your CV/resume

Yeah, I do seem to often dream about the way the world should be before realizing "Oh wait, life's not fair"..

And from what I've heard as well, putting your stellar GPA on your post-professional CV is just rubbing people's faces in it if it's not practiced widely. To me, that would start to send signals that maybe this person doesn't have great professional skills.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! I think, overall, grades are just a touchy subject. I appreciate you all giving us the inside look at vet school. This is the stuff that they don't tell you at the student panel haha.

 

[dyachei]

I've been on a few panels before and I totally would have told people this stuff if asked. Usually, it's not a subject pre-vets really think about.

 

[bunnity]

I have a few questions on all of the points you guys have been making:
1. If the first two years of vet school are mostly cramming information that you will not use, do you feel that there should be a change in curriculum?
2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have made it seem?

I ask the first to see how you guys feel about today's veterinary education. I've talked to a vet who seems pretty unhappy about the direction things are going. I ask the second because it doesn't make sense to me yet. I cannot imagine myself hesitating to interview a potential hire because they have a GPA and might "lack communication skills." Granted, I have never been in that position. I understand that there are absolutely people out there who lack communication skills though.

I definitely agree that grades simply aren't a good indicator of a student's capabilities. I've spoken my mind about how I disagree with most grading systems in general on an old thread. I feel that they simply do not work. My boss has told me that she'd rather hire a vet assistant with a 2.5 than a 4.0 if the former was easier to work with/more passionate/etc. Now, that is not hiring a doctor, but the same principle clearly applies.

#1 Yes, I have a lot of ideas for this: being taught by DVMs from the beginning, cutting out a lot of the first year ultra-detailed basic science, making anatomy more clinically relevant, much more emphasis on technical skills, ensuring useful repetition and consistency within the curriculum... I could talk about this all day, maybe it would be an interesting thread to talk about what works and doesn't work in each of our curriculums.
#2 A lot of people do think this but I don't think it's true. I think the people in our class with the best communication skills are generally those who have had jobs for a few years before vet school. This is nothing that folks without jobs can't catch up on! My class happens to be a very "smart" class and the vast majority of my classmates are kind, helpful, and easy to get along with - not "social" in the sense that they are extroverts and love to party but "social" in the sense that they care a lot about other people and are easy to talk to. I think the only aspect in which it is true is that some people use so many "doctor words" that they are difficult for clients to understand. I don't think that's a "high GPA" thing, I think it's just a product of our environment and perhaps an insecurity of wanting the attendings to think you know what you're talking about.

GPA is going to depend on a LOT of factors: how well you take multiple choice tests, your learning style, your learning speed, your work ethic, knowledge base, what other things/commitments you have in your life, how well you memorize, etc.

How good of a doctor you are depends on a LOT of factors: work ethic, technical skills, communication and ability to get along with people, creativity, empathy/level of caring, level-headedness, knowledge and much more importantly, your understanding of your own knowledge and when to ask for help.

Are there things that fall into both categories? Yes, working hard is a factor that goes into a good GPA and a factor that goes into being a good doctor. But there are a million other factors going into each one as well so it's pretty silly to think that someone with a low GPA doesn't work as hard and it's equally silly and offensive to say that someone with a high GPA has no communication skills. Being a vet student and being a vet is often really physically and emotionally difficult, and can be very lonely, and hard to understand for non vet people. Bringing each other down in EITHER direction "oh, I can't believe I got an 89, oops you got a 63" and "I can't wait to see these high horse know it alls fail in clinics" is so far from what we should be doing to support each other as future colleagues. I want all my classmates to be good doctors if for nothing else so that their clients and patients have good doctors! This isn't a football game (unfortunately) this is a profession where lives are at stake so I think we should appreciate and learn from and help each other, not bring each other down over stupid stuff.

 

[LetItSnow]

2. Why is there a link between poor communication skills and a high GPA? I'm not sure if it was intentional, but reading your posts kind of came across as stereotyping students with good grades as being socially incapable. Is the correlation between a high GPA and poor communication skills really that strong for vet students that employers would come to that conclusion as quickly as you guys have made it seem?

I think it's a selection-process issue, and partly a perception issue.

First off, you can be a 4.0 student and be an awesome communicator with great bedside manner and everything else. No doubt. But in the big generalized picture .... you get two populations of people in vet school: super-smart people who rack up CV items like they're building a shopping list. They may - or may not - have that intangible 'people skill'. Gunners are a subset of this group.

Then you get the people with somewhat less academic skill. They *almost have to have* that intangible people skill stuff, because otherwise they don't get into vet school. Major generalization, but that's how standard deviation curves are built, right? You can definitely be super smart with people skills, and not-so-awesome academically without people skills ... but ... broad brush strokes here.

So, the lower-performing (academic) people will likely have these 'soft skills'. The higher-performing (academic) people might have those skills. It's just a subtle shift in ratios.

Just as I think certain GPA cutoffs for vet school are not right because they don't consider the whole applicant

In the end, your ability to proceed through vet school is determined by whether you pass classes. Vet school isn't about making good vets; it's about making people who pass NAVLE. Good vets make themselves. So I think GPA cut-offs are reasonable; regardless of other skills, every student in vet school needs to have a minimum academic ability. It's not like the GPA cut-offs are that extreme for most schools ...

 

[that redhead]

I agree with LIS - they need to start emphasizing the soft skills in applicants instead of straight numbers. Academic ability is being used as a litmus test for ability to succeed in vet school, which isn't the same thing. You need hard-core stress coping skills, the ability to work well under pressure, interpersonal skills and dedication to the field. Those who have succeeded academically (like 4.0, not 3.5 or whatever) in undergrad may seem at first to fit the bill, but often they have gotten that 4.0 at the expense of spending time with a vet, cultivating non-vet hobbies or staying involved with their peers/friends, which will start to peek through as time goes on and stress wears everyone down. There are those super-star people who do it all and do it all well, but I think it's a lot more far in-between than many people think. The advice that I have received from vets an that I have passed on is to find balance in your life while in school; those who dedicate so much time to studying and getting straight As frequently don't have that.

 

[gumtree]

I agree with LIS - they need to start emphasizing the soft skills in applicants instead of straight numbers. Academic ability is being used as a litmus test for ability to succeed in vet school, which isn't the same thing. You need hard-core stress coping skills, the ability to work well under pressure, interpersonal skills and dedication to the field. Those who have succeeded academically (like 4.0, not 3.5 or whatever) in undergrad may seem at first to fit the bill, but often they have gotten that 4.0 at the expense of spending time with a vet, cultivating non-vet hobbies or staying involved with their peers/friends, which will start to peek through as time goes on and stress wears everyone down. There are those super-star people who do it all and do it all well, but I think it's a lot more far in-between than many people think. The advice that I have received from vets an that I have passed on is to find balance in your life while in school; those who dedicate so much time to studying and getting straight As frequently don't have that.

I just wanted to emphasize the points in bold. The ability to handle stress short-term (a HBC was just brought into the clinic) and long-term (hi, life) is maybe one of the most important skills I am learning, NOT the finer details of physiology, neuroanatomy, etc. I think of vet school as having two ways of challenging or testing us. The first test is the obvious one: are you able to learn the material to regurgitate it on an exam, pass all of your classes, pass the NAVLE, and become a veterinarian? The second challenge is less superficial and less obvious. It tests our ability to deal with stress, find balance, communicate with people, stay motivated, etc etc. I think that a lot of times people focus so much on this first "test" that they forget about the second one. Did that make any sense?

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Then you get the people with somewhat less academic skill. They *almost have to have* that intangible people skill stuff, because otherwise they don't get into vet school.

I never thought of it this way, but that makes perfect sense. You have to wow them with something other than grades at your applicant interview.

I just wanted to emphasize the points in bold. The ability to handle stress short-term (a HBC was just brought into the clinic) and long-term (hi, life) is maybe one of the most important skills I am learning, NOT the finer details of physiology, neuroanatomy, etc. I think of vet school as having two ways of challenging or testing us. The first test is the obvious one: are you able to learn the material to regurgitate it on an exam, pass all of your classes, pass the NAVLE, and become a veterinarian? The second challenge is less superficial and less obvious. It tests our ability to deal with stress, find balance, communicate with people, stay motivated, etc etc. I think that a lot of times people focus so much on this first "test" that they forget about the second one. Did that make any sense?

This definitely makes sense. Does anyone know the attrition rate of their vet school? Or rather, how often someone does throw in the towel? I think a lot of us undergrads are so set on vet school that we burn ourselves out in 4 years. I knew someone who knew someone who went through vet school only to realize she hated it. Graduated with her DVM, but is not practicing to my knowledge. You're so set on one thing for the majority of your life that you forget to look around.

 

[HorsesRLife]

Just got done with first semester and we already had one guy quit that passed because of wanting to spend more time with his family and he had tried to get in 3 times. Some don't realize the time it takes to do well in vet school.

 

[that redhead]

This definitely makes sense. Does anyone know the attrition rate of their vet school? Or rather, how often someone does throw in the towel? I think a lot of us undergrads are so set on vet school that we burn ourselves out in 4 years. I knew someone who knew someone who went through vet school only to realize she hated it. Graduated with her DVM, but is not practicing to my knowledge. You're so set on one thing for the majority of your life that you forget to look around.

We lost one to grades first year and one to health problems. One left early second year because she was having trouble coping with the vet school life style. We gained two classmates from the year above us due to grades. (Class size is ~60 for us, so whatever percentage.) I think more people stick with it even if they don't like it because they've already invested a lot of time, money, energy and emotion into the process.

 

[BlackDog17]

I agree with LIS - they need to start emphasizing the soft skills in applicants instead of straight numbers. Academic ability is being used as a litmus test for ability to succeed in vet school, which isn't the same thing. You need hard-core stress coping skills, the ability to work well under pressure, interpersonal skills and dedication to the field. Those who have succeeded academically (like 4.0, not 3.5 or whatever) in undergrad may seem at first to fit the bill, but often they have gotten that 4.0 at the expense of spending time with a vet, cultivating non-vet hobbies or staying involved with their peers/friends, which will start to peek through as time goes on and stress wears everyone down. There are those super-star people who do it all and do it all well, but I think it's a lot more far in-between than many people think. The advice that I have received from vets an that I have passed on is to find balance in your life while in school; those who dedicate so much time to studying and getting straight As frequently don't have that.

This sums up perfectly the point I think others were trying to make earlier in this thread. The vet school curriculum is extremely demanding, and while it is possible to get A's, they don't come without sacrificing other things.

This is why the whole "you won't be a good vet if you don't care about grades" argument irks so many of us. Most, if not all vet students have made a lot of sacrifices already just to be in vet school. We're away from our families, we're in long distance relationships or had to give up our relationships entirely, we miss out on holidays and family events and nights out with friends. We rack up mountains of debt while watching our non-vet friends get promotions, buy houses, and start families. Most of us have very few things that we still make time for outside of school. So to have someone like gfa240 - who has never been to vet school and has no idea what it is like - come in and announce that anyone who isn't sacrificing those few remaining things to get A's is going to be a bad vet is really offensive.

For me personally, I call my mom, skype my boyfriend occasionally, exercise, watch a little Netflix, and go out with friends once every few weeks, and that's pretty much it. I would much rather get B's and C's and maintain the little bit of life balance that I still have than give all that up for the sake of getting A's. There's a LOT more to life than just being top in the class, and I think on some level employers recognize that. It doesn't mean that your application is headed straight for the trash simply because you have a 4.0, it just means that employers are going to be more wary about you because they're going to assume that you did sacrifice things like clinical experience and a personal life to get those grades, because that's usually what it takes.

 

[ky261682]

We lost one to grades first year and one to health problems. One left early second year because she was having trouble coping with the vet school life style. We gained two classmates from the year above us due to grades. (Class size is ~60 for us, so whatever percentage.) I think more people stick with it even if they don't like it because they've already invested a lot of time, money, energy and emotion into the process.

We haven't lost anyone and I don't think anyone has been on academic probation. Compared to other years at AVC this is unusual; usually 1 or 2 leave for various reasons.

 

[bunnity]

We have lost 10 out of the original 126 over the past 4 years.