My home program's advice

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Syranope2

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I just had a meeting with the residency director at my home program (I'm an MS3). I'm looking at community programs for residency and she gave me two pieces of advice.

1) Don't go to a program with less than 3-4 residents per year.
2) Don't go to a program where the faculty are not paid for their teaching service, stating that they will be more concerned about their own bottom line and less about your education.

Can anybody comment on these? I was kind of looking forward to the homey atmosphere of a smaller program and I liked the idea of faculty who were in for the love, not the money.

Thanks!

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I was kind of looking forward to the homey atmosphere of a smaller program and I liked the idea of faculty who were in for the love, not the money.

Actually, taken as a whole, physicians who choose academic practice (and I use this term as one who gets paid for teaching, not necessarily big-university academic programs) get paid less than those in private practice. People who choose academics are choosing it for "the love." You can look at it this way: faculty who are in private practice but are choosing to work with residents are looking for residents to act like their PAs/NPs, and their bottom line will always be the financials--it has to be, since if they don't bill, they don't get paid. Academics get a salary, so the finances, although very important, may not be the ultimate bottom line. That may be why your advisors recommend looking into programs who pay their faculty.
 
1) Don't go to a program with less than 3-4 residents per year.
>>>i think smaller programs are more likely to have problems with being overworked. although that may not be the case as programs adjust to the 80hr work week rule. smaller programs are also affected by changes, such as loss of resident, vacation, sickness, much more easily.


2) Don't go to a program where the faculty are not paid for their teaching service, stating that they will be more concerned about their own bottom line and less about your education.
>>>most faculty are given some payment for their "education time". the amount varies. the more private a program is, the more money will be a factor. it use to be that the private model and academic model payment was different, but not any more. because of difficulty in recruiting, many university programs have set up a bonus system which is based on your production. in the end, everyone worries about money, because the reimbursements have decreases. there is not enough fat in the system anymore.
 
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Here's one snippet I got: Go to a program with either a city/county hospital or a VA. That way you get to be the operating surgeon rather than the bovie holder. I think that is sound advice.
 
Here's one snippet I got: Go to a program with either a city/county hospital or a VA. That way you get to be the operating surgeon rather than the bovie holder. I think that is sound advice.

You might modify that to be "Don't go to a program where you're a bovie holder instead of an operating surgeon."

From what I've read here, these programs are less common on the east coast, y'all.
 
You might modify that to be "Don't go to a program where you're a bovie holder instead of an operating surgeon."

From what I've read here, these programs are less common on the east coast, y'all.

I think that is right to an extent. East coast places are a little more hierarchical and give less autonomy overall than programs in the midwest, but you trade that autonomy for more time with the attending refining your technique. East coast programs that have a VA/city/county hospital experience give you the opportunity to be the decision maker at some point.
 
I just had a meeting with the residency director at my home program (I'm an MS3). I'm looking at community programs for residency and she gave me two pieces of advice.

1) Don't go to a program with less than 3-4 residents per year.
2) Don't go to a program where the faculty are not paid for their teaching service, stating that they will be more concerned about their own bottom line and less about your education.

Can anybody comment on these? I was kind of looking forward to the homey atmosphere of a smaller program and I liked the idea of faculty who were in for the love, not the money.

Thanks!

In general, your program gave you good advice. "Homey atmosphere" can quickly translate into "surgery consult for every patient" for lines, abdominal pain, etc. and you are break-neck busy while the medicine residents are sleeping all night. I once heard a medicine resident tell a nurse to page surgery to start the IVs on one his patients because he was too tired to come to the floor. (This was at a VA).

When faculty are not paid for teaching, you can often find that they ignore your educational needs while you are slugging away doing their patient care for them. You become a glorified PA/SA.

The above is not true at all community programs but watch out for some. There are great community programs where the program directors will not allow faculty to admit patients to teaching services unless they teach and teach well.

There are also community programs that pride themselves in producing strong, well-trained surgeons in a "laid-back" atmosphere. The program in Wilmington, NC (New Hanover) comes to mind. It's small but the faculty have attempted to make sure that the residents are taught well and not abused.

When it comes to community programs, do your homework and definitely do a "second-look" on a day where you can shadow an intern as shadowing a chief is not a useful. On your second-look day, watch for how the residents interact with attendings and how the general surgery services are run.

If you are going to spend minimum of five years in a place, you need as much information as you can get to make a sound decision.
 
I think that many of the traditional differences between community-hospital and university residencies are rapidly disappearing or becoming irrelevant. In the past, there was a big distinction between the university hospital, with a high volume of complex referral cases, salaried professors, big-time research, etc. and the small, low-volume community program with volunteer private faculty, no research, and bread-and-butter cases. But with the way hospitals are run these days, virtually all programs will be a hybrid of university and private.

A lot of University hospitals have seen their patient bases shrink as managed-care affects referral patterns, and "university" residents may get a large percentage of their cases at rotations on private services at outlying hospitals. And in fact, many university hospitals have been bought out by private hospital systems (i.e. Georgetown by Medstar), so a hospital with “University” in the name may not function like a traditional university hospital at all. Conversely, in some areas large private hospitals dominate the market, and actually do a higher volume of complex tertiary referral cases than the local university (Inova Fairfax in northern Virginia comes to mind). They may be involved in clinical trials, take level I trauma, and do tons of Whipple procedures just like the university.

I trained in general surgery at a program with “university” in the name, but which was really based at three large community hospitals. There was a mix of salaried and private-practice attendings, some of whom were great teachers and some of whom were terrible. But frankly, the ability to teach well wasn’t always directly related to where the money came from. For fellowship, I trained at Baylor College of Medicine, which has the reputation of being a very traditional university program. But here, the residents spent much of their time at Methodist Hospital, which was very much a private institution, with an attending-does-case-while-resident-holds-retractor culture.

As far as I can tell, the traditional academic practice is a thing of the past. The “academic” surgeons are under just as much pressure to increase billing as everyone else. Everyone is hustling for referrals, worried about managed care, and competing with the hospital down the street. The last bastion of the traditional hierarchy may be a county hospital or VA environment where all you have is indigent patients.

Sorry for the long post, but 'University program vs. community program' just seems to me like a false dichotomy in most cases.
 
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