My MD parent told me to go DO

[doctorperez]

Hi everyone


How many had an MD relative recommend Osteopathic medicine instead of allopathic?



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[Nater44]

My great uncle has an M.D. and used to be the assistant surgeon general in the 80's and he told me to go D.O. He accidentally picked a D.O. in his health plan and hasn't been to an M.D. since.

 

[LukeWhite]

My dad (MD from Hopkins, director of the local NICU) pushed DO heavily.

 

[pafbdoc]

My dad's an MD orthopedic surgeon and has a D.O. partner in his practice. He highly encouraged me to go DO b/c the partner is one of the best young docs he's ever seen and uses OMM from time to time, makes a decent amount of cash with it, and the patients LOVE it.... so much so that my dad has lost patients to his partner b/c the guy can prolong the knife with some of the techniques he uses. He knows it usually doesnt cure them, but it makes them feel better, which is most of the battle, especially when you often have elderly patients who dont have much time left anyway.

hence, hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to nycom I go.

 

[Nater44]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of the business side of medicine, but how does your dad's partner make extra cash with OMM?

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by Nater44
Please excuse my lack of knowledge of the business side of medicine, but how does your dad's partner make extra cash with OMM?

Although several health plans, including medicare, do pay for OMM, many patients will pay cash for these services. He probably performs them as an outpatient service and brings in some extra bank on the side. Sounds smart to me.

 

[pafbdoc]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of the business side of medicine, but how does your dad's partner make extra cash with OMM?

Because he's licensed to provide it, hence he can bill for it to insurance companies. My father cannot provide it, at least not "officially" enough for insurance carriers to pay for it. His partner doesnt use it everyday, but at times he'll spend another 10 minutes with the patient and do some techniques which are billable. He uses it alot to free up frozen shoulders, increase drainage, etc. But, of course he still prescribes whatever drug is called for also, it's just the extra hands-on stuff that patients love and the insurance companies pay for apparently.

 

[MacGyver]

this thread is exactly what I was talking about in another thread about DO vs MD.

Now you dont have MDs bashing DOs, you've got DOs bashing MDs somehow trying to prove they are superior.

If your MD friends are unhappy with their practice and wish they would have gone DO, what that really means is that they are too inflexible to adjust their practice and hold rigid ideas and stereotypes about both fields.

MDs can do everything that DOs can do. There are many programs where MDs can get training in OMM if they want it.

DOs do not have a monopoly on "holistic" care or hands on treatment. Any MD who tells you this is talking about his own limitations, not hte limitations of the scope of practice or the profession as a whole.

 

[doctorperez]

Imagine you had to take your car to a mechanic. And say you had two options:

Option A) A technician very well trained to treat mechanical problems only not considering to use a plastic cover on your seats whenever he needed to sit on them.

Or

Option B) A technician very well trained to treat mechanical problems as well as electrical ones. And professionally trained to care for the cleanliness of your car.


You could argue that the mechanic on option A could later on learn to be more considerate for all parts of your car and not just the engine and transmission, etc, however, let us be honest, if both charged the same, would you not agree the mechanic in option B would probably be better at caring for your whole car due to the fact he has been doing just that for a while longer than the dude in option A?

He who has ears, let him hear.


This is why I chose DO over MD and that is why MDs I know applauded my decision. That does not mean MDs are better or worse. Just are trained to practice medicine different than are DOs. If you believe in the DO philosophy and believe your patients would benefit more from the osteopathic training - then osteopathic medicine should be your choice.

 

[Squat n Squeeze]

DO's are inferior. They can't practice in many geographic locations. If I had the choice between only a DO acceptance or choosing another field, I would choose the other field. MD's are better than DO's. Period.

 

[phar]

Originally posted by Squat n Squeeze
DO's are inferior. They can't practice in many geographic locations. If I had the choice between only a DO acceptance or choosing another field, I would choose the other field. MD's are better than DO's. Period.

If i had to choose between sex and sex. I would choose sex.

 

[paramed2premed]

Sex? Yes, please!

My mother is an MD from Yale Med. The first time I mentioned DO, she, like any Boston-biased MD, winced painfully.

Over time, though, she has come to push this option. Perhaps not to the exclusion of MD programs, but on par definitely.

Ok, the fact that UNECOM is near home might be a factor for her!

Her view of physicians is dichotomous; not MDs versus DOs, but rather, either you know your sh1t, versus you don't.

 

[Jalopycat]

I'm not trying to start a big "us vrs. them debate here, but I am curious about something and would like a real answer. I hear alot about how"DO's care for the whole person and not just the symptoms". How do they do that when they take the same core curriculum courses I take as an MD student? Is there something in the clinical years where you learn to "care more" than MD's? My school really emphasizes empathetic patient care from day 1, and yet it's not a DO school, so how is it that people still try to pass off the DO profession as caring more? Yes, I realize that a lot of this is done in the admissions process, but I don't believe that's really an acceptable reason anymore, as most medical schools are really addressing the patient care issues at that level.

I find it a bit presumptuous on anyone's part that I would be judged as less caring as an MD just because of the letters after my name. Are there MD's out there who have horrible bed side manner? You bet! But I'm willing to guess there are also some DO's, too.

Personally, I could care less if someone is a DO or an MD. Hopefully, both schools are teaching their students to become competent AND empathetic doctors.

So again, to repeat my question since you had to read this long babble, when and how do DO students learn to become more compassionate than MD students?

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by Jalopycat

I find it a bit presumptuous on anyone's part that I would be judged as less caring as an MD just because of the letters after my name. Are there MD's out there who have horrible bed side manner? You bet! But I'm willing to guess there are also some DO's, too.

So again, to repeat my question since you had to read this long babble, when and how do DO students learn to become more compassionate than MD students?

I agree.

We don't learn anything more than our MD counterparts (except for OMM).

I guess people are quoting the HISTORY of the profession...based on primary care.

We learn OMM, which at its roots I suppose can be viewed as compassion because it is physical contact, but realistically it is a treatment modality just as anything else.

There are crappy MDs, crappy DOs, and crappy everything else.

What makes DOs better? In my mind....nothing.

What makes DO better for ME? I want to learn OMM.

There ya go.

Good luck to all of my MD counterparts out there. I look forward to working with all of you in the future.

I will give you free OMM if you introduce me to some cute MD honies. (don't tell my girlfriend)

 

[paramed2premed]

I had 3 interviews at allo schools this winter, and all of them not only emphasized the "whole patient" pablum, but also had more formal elements that trained students to look beyond the disease. Certain courses, many of them case-based, required the students to acknowledge the social, economic, spiritual, and philosophical milieu that the patient resides in.

This may be a consequence of the osteopathic philosophy having been too successful, in that it may no longer distinguish it from the allopathic curriculum and philosophy. Does anybody else see this? How should DO schools distinguish theselves from MD, if both now emphasize treatment of the person, and not the disease.

Anybody who spends a few hours at work with both MDs and DOs realizes that compassion is not a quality that can be reliably correlated with any specific gender, race, medical degree, or hairstyle.

Hmm. Tough questions.

 

[chewawa]

How about this: everyone just chill out about this md vs do, and just agree to disagree

 

[oceandocDO]

Gee, it's nice to see another debate of this topic in this forum. This started out to be a pretty benign topic, I thought.

As I've been told I'll argue with a wall if it'll argue back, here's a go at it:

Now you dont have MDs bashing DOs, you've got DOs bashing MDs somehow trying to prove they are superior.

Where was anyone claiming that a D.O. was "superior to an MD"? The above posts were relating personal stories on how they arrived at the decision to become an osteopathic physician, inlcluding encouragement from allopathic physicians. Let's not twist words drastically... these are opinions, leave it at that.

MDs can do everything that DOs can do. There are many programs where MDs can get training in OMM if they want it.

This is in fact wrong, and right. MDs can learn and offer OMM, but can you name 3 MDs who you know offer OMM or are at the least interested in it? You go to the allo board and it's discounted to the level of hocus-pocus, slightly below a chiro. Fine with me. Less competition. Funny that they'll send their patients to a PT though MDs cant bill for OMT or even supervise a student offering OMT to a patient. Simple as that, hence, from a very superficial level, D.O.s can "do" more, at least legally.

As far as the monopoly of "holistic care" we all know it's a marketing tool. The fact is, D.O.s are taught with an underlying philosophy, whereas MDs are not, at least not one that hasnt been articulated to date. If you can articulate the allopathic philosophy to me, please do. If MDs want to come out with a flag to fly, go for it. Medicine is becoming more "holistic" overall, D.O.s just were the first to claim it as their own. Read the NY Times article posted in the osteo form, it sounds like the D.O. philosophy verbatim, but it's from an MD. In order to back up the "holistic banner", D.O.s have offered the 500+ hours of training in OMM which is built on the ideas of reciprocality in structure and function. Even if you never use the techniques in practice, the training alone forces you to consider life in a holistic, almost gaia-like ideology. Combine that with an offered rotating internship that exposes a young doc to a wide cross-section of medicine, and the body, you have a slightly more "holistic" approach to medicine than the current allopathic brand. However, nowhere does the D.O. curricula include more classes on "caring" or "compassion". Anyone who claims that needs to be evaluated.

Anyway, sorry to add fuel to the fire. It's late and I'm punchy from board review. I think the original post was a good idea, and likewise, if there's anyone out there who's parent is a D.O. and wouldnt let their kid go to an osteopathic school, post away. Let's play fair.

 

[jekel]

Originally posted by Squat n Squeeze
DO's are inferior. They can't practice in many geographic locations. If I had the choice between only a DO acceptance or choosing another field, I would choose the other field. MD's are better than DO's. Period.

What!?! What geographic locations would those be? Please enlighten us.

 

[stoic]

AURRRGHHHH!!!! Why can't everyone just freakin' grow up? These flame wars grow oh so tiresome. Do some people actually have nothing better to do than pick fights in an internet forum? Actually, I really do want to know what in the world posses *certain people* to bash DO's in a DO forum. Can there be ANY reason other than trying to start a fight? For the record, I know 4 MD's who have been extremely positive towards my decision to apply DO. I also know 1 who thinks I'm crazy. One of the MD's is my aunt, who's brother is a DO. They are both in FP and she wishes she had OMM to use on her chronic back pain patients.

 

[jekel]

A lot of DO students and future students have the grades and MCATs to get into allopath school (myself included) but had no interest for one reason or another. To each his own. I personally am sick of this argument. Why someone like Squat and Squeeze would come on and just try to get people agitated is beyond me. Let's all try to be the best doctors we can be regardless of whether we pursue MD or DO.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by jekel
A lot of DO students and future students have the grades and MCATs to get into allopath school (myself included) but had no interest for one reason or another. To each his own. I personally am sick of this argument. Why someone like Squat and Squeeze would come on and just try to get people agitated is beyond me. Let's all try to be the best doctors we can be regardless of whether we pursue MD or DO.

I coulda done it.

I liked PCOM too much, though.

Plus I can use my newfound OMM skills to impress women.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by jekel
What!?! What geographic locations would those be? Please enlighten us.

Some provinces in Canada.

England.

But DOs have full practice rights in all US states and territories.

 

[paramed2premed]

Originally posted by atty
Might be relevant to include the *reason* that the MD parent pushed DO. My hunch is that a large number MD parents pushed DO school after realizing their kid didn't have the stats to make MD but still really wanted them to be a "doctor."

Me again. My MD parent knows I got the chops to go where I want, she just wants me to go where I will be most comfortable. She is not too psyched on her alma mater, viewing it as a psychological pressure cooker (in the bad sense). She appreciates the value that DO schools place on attitude, motivation, and experience, and believes I would be very comfortable at one.

She does not, however, feel like I have to be a doctor. How many physician-parents these days push medicine on their kids? Most seem to discourage them!

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO

This is in fact wrong, and right. MDs can learn and offer OMM, but can you name 3 MDs who you know offer OMM or are at the least interested in it? You go to the allo board and it's discounted to the level of hocus-pocus, slightly below a chiro.

Go here for MD who is interested in OMM

http://www.nihadc.com/rind.htm

and I think there is an MD who teaches OMM at OSU see this thread

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57559&highlight=omm

Sorry ocean only found 2 for now, when I find a third one I'll add it to this post.

 

[oceandocDO]

do2md...

Seems to never end. Please do grow up.

What also never seems to end are clowns like you who need to know that they're better than everyone else. Honestly, why does it concern you so much? Personality issue?

I'll fax you my MD acceptance letters, will you quit your yappin then? Or will you claim they're forged, because us lowly D.O. students arent half as smart as our mighty brethren? Please.

 

[oceandocDO]

"The sign on the door of opportunity reads PUSH." - Thomas Edison


I chose to walk through the door I wanted to, and in the process probably allowed people like you to walk through the doors they wanted to as well. I like the view, think I'll keep it, but thanks for the concern

 

[mison]

This is in fact wrong, and right. MDs can learn and offer OMM, but can you name 3 MDs who you know offer OMM or are at the least interested in it? You go to the allo board and it's discounted to the level of hocus-pocus, slightly below a chiro.

I really don't think the OP intended an MD vs. DO flame war. I think the whole debate is a complete waste of time and I never participate in them on SDN. I simply don't give a **** what Joe Blow, MD or Joe Blew, DO thinks about my future degree. The quality of care delivered is the ONLY thing that matters. But to answer the question/challenge posted above: At VCOM they informed us that we will have several MDs learning OMM with us in our classes. I just finished reading a compelling article in "Better Nutrition" about MDs going "holistic". (www.betternutrition.com)

VCOM Class of 2007

 

[stoic]

do2md, you completely twisted my words. I want people to grow up and stop getting in these ******ed flame wars. I know several (4) people who got DO and MD acceptances, some of them went DO (2) instead of MD. If you can get into DO school then you can probably get into MD schools, too.

 

[Nater44]

I see a lot of people fired up about this whole debate. This is my first DO vs MD fiasco, but I'll put in my two cents. I used to teach medical microbiology at an MD school in Texas. One thing I noticed is that many of the students I interacted with were very immature. Many didn't seem to have a whole lot of compassion in them and were very self centered. Of course I'm not saying that all MD students are like this and I'm sure there are DO students that act the same. Note that this has just been my experience. I know osteopathic schools usually accept older students with more life experience and probably a better sense of themselves and their motivations. As an undergrad I went to DO without even knowing what a DO was and he turned out to be the best doctor I've ever had. He offered to see my girlfriend for free when I told him all she had was student health insurance and they kept giving her the wrong antibiotics for strep. The doctor I have now is a DO and has offered to let me shadow him....he asked me! The DO's I've met and the care they've provided led me to osteopathic medicine. The argument about numbers is stupid and usually put forth by people who define themselves by their grade point average. We've all met them before.

 

[phar]

Again!
If i had to choose between sex and sex, i would choose sex.

Can somebody please understand my point?

this thread is ridiculous.

 

[group_theory]

I agree that this thread is getting to be a little tiresome.

However, this debate is needed once in a while. Why?
We have newcomers who are not so sure about osteopathic medicine - what it can and can't do - what it is and what it isn't.

A nice debate will provide newcomers with other viewpoints - it will expose the biased - and maybe debunk these bias or stereotypes.

Osteopathic Medicine isn't quite mainstream yet and the majority of premeds hear about it through friends/fellow premeds/advisors - and there is a lot of disinformation going around.

Perhaps we can hold semiannual chats on SDN where we invite all the premeds (preallopathic and preosteopathic) to come and ask questions - and have osteopathic students and physicians answer and address their concerns. Not only will this encourage people to apply DO, but maybe bring better understanding to our beloved counterparts in the preallopathic forum - who will someday be our co-workers and friends.

 

[jekel]

Originally posted by do2md
Agreed. It seems to me a large part of the immaturity around here stems from people like jekel, JP and paramed2premed who will claim until their dying day that they "coulda got MD." It's like saying, "I chose to close nearly every door that was open." Fact is, even if you have a 4.0/41MCAT you're not guaranteed in to an MD program. (Kind of reminds me of how prisoners always claim they're innocent.)

Why not just admit you couldn't get in? The earlier you face up to it, the better off you'll be. And as soon as you graduate you're going to do what every DO dreams of doing -- landing a decent MD residency. Or at least try. Some will be stuck with a DO position, and continue their perpetual, "I coulda got MD" residency even there.

Seems to never end. Please do grow up.

Well....I never actually looked at going osteopathic as closing any doors. I looked at it as opening doors. You can laugh all you want, but people value different things when looking into a medical education.

 

[jhubiophysics]

GW vs. KCOM

I have chosen KCOM. I liked the school, and its community. My advisor, at Johns Hopkins University and other doctors truly encouraged me to go to KCOM. Non of them mentioned that I would be closing doors by going to a D.O. school.

Now, I work at JH hospital. I deal with D.O.s all the time. I believe if they where less of a degree than M.D.s, I will not see them, surgeons and others, at JH.

In the field, D.O.s and M.D.s work closely together to deliver the best health care they can. Just go where you feel you will excel.

Good Luck!

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Guess there is a new basher in town. DO2MD, is there any truth to your name?

 

[sphingolipid]

Hey kids, semi-frequent lurker, first time poster.

First, let me say, I'm an MD chief IM resident in a mid-major east coast hospital. While I'm obviously not a PD, I've now seen a few new classes of new residents and have sat in on some interviews this past year. To all the premed students out there who bash D.O.s, it's very unbecoming of you. Grow up. Our chief resident here next year will be a D.O. and he's probably one of the best young doctors I've ever worked with. Our program director is an Ivy- trained MD and she's taken D.O.s in each class of residents she's brought in. You know how many times she asked for their MCAT scores? ZERO. Same goes for undergraduate GPAs. She has asked for board scores though, duh, and if you do well, she doesnt care what your degree title says. So have faith, pre-D.O.s, the real world isnt as bad as these premed know-it-alls and hot-to-trot allopath students say it is. Most of the ones that do waste their time on here with that have their own confidence issues to deal with and they wont get past the interview in their residency apps b/c someone will be able to sniff them out. Know your stuff better than the next guy, be humble, caring, and determined and you can go anywhere you want.

anyway, i know residents and docs dont post much on here (although they probably should), but i felt motivated tonight. congrats to the grads. The real fun is about to start!

 

[sidelines]

Thanks for the post "sphingolipid"!

It was very informative to hear it at the professional level and not at the pre-med level.

Again, thanks for the insights!

 

[LukeWhite]

I'll second that thanks. It's great to see physicians taking the time to write on the pre-osteo/allo boards. Wonderful insights; thanks again!

 

[Nater44]

This whole tread should end on Sphigolipid's post.

 

[skypilot]

My mother and sister who are both doctors both said several times.

"Doesn't matter where you went to med school and that includes whether your med school was Osteopathic or Allopathic." (or foreign for that matter)

D.O.s are everywhere and the only way you can tell who they are is by their signature on the chart.

 

[Wo1verine7DO]

Just to add to a positive DO outlook. One of my uncles who worked as a professor in anatomy at Northwestern University School of Med and use to be the Chicago Cubs team doctor a few years back recommended DO as an option more than MD since you have more options for residency and treating a patient. He said that DOs are just as good coming out of school as other MD residents as well.

 

[klinzou]

So what exactly is this OMM thing I keep reading about?