My Prediction: NP's will quickly be more saturated than Pharm D's

[BidingMyTime]

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I mention this, because I keep finding comments from pharmacists saying that they are thinking about going back to school to be a NP (or PA.....but let's not go there.) Or they are telling future pharmacists they should be a NP instead. But just thinking about all the nurses I know who are currently in some on-line NP program (not to mention all the ones who are thinking about one or getting ready to apply to one.) NP's is a sinking ship that will sink far, far faster than the pharmacist ship. NP's don't have to do any internship, and the on-line programs seem to have no limit to how many students they can take--unlike Pharm D which does have a bit of a bottleneck with the year long clinical rotations which pharmacy schools have to fit in for their students.

It amazes me, when I graduated pharmacy school, I had never heard of such a thing as a NP. It wasn't until the late 90's, that the hospital I was at then, started letting them come in. And now they are everywhere, I'd say on average, the average dr has 3 NP's.

And just like the quality of pharmacy students has went down, so has the quality of NP's students. The first NP's I knew, where highly experience, very sharp, and very much worked as a team with their supervising doctor. Now, I see NP's that I'm surprised made it through basic nursing school, with very little nursing experience before they became a NP, and they are working with essentially no supervision (in IL, NP's are required to have a supervising physician, but that is often a paper arrangement.)

I guess pluses are it's a lot cheaper, and NP's, like lawyers can open up their own practice, but still. If job saturation is a concern, I can't imagine going into the NP field.

 

[Digsbe]

I did some rotations with NP students and in the metro area I went to school in they said the NP and PA market was completely saturated. If someone wanted to stay local they had to work about 1.5 hr away in a rural area and hope after time they can transition into the city.

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

I did some rotations with NP students and in the metro area I went to school in they said the NP and PA market was completely saturated. If someone wanted to stay local they had to work about 1.5 hr away in a rural area and hope after time they can transition into the city.

I live in a big, desirable metro area and have many unemployed nurse friends who just finished their schooling in the last 3 years (at the top ones too). They tell me that it’s not about grades, credentials etc. that is the barrier to entry but real work experience, which any fresh graduate does not have.

They now are unfortunately trapped in a catch 22 where hospitals won’t hire them unless they have experience, but they can’t get experience unless someone hires them on, so many of them are just living at home with their parents... granted some of them are very resistant to moving out of the city they live in (you can probably guess where this is) and I’m sure there are nursing roles in BFE that they haven’t applied to, but it is definitely heading in the same direction as pharmacy.

 

[PA_dud3]

NPs seem to be very popular in rural urgent cares/clinics, in my experience.

 

[allantois]

An NP can always go back to being a brick and mortar RN.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

I did some rotations with NP students and in the metro area I went to school in they said the NP and PA market was completely saturated. If someone wanted to stay local they had to work about 1.5 hr away in a rural area and hope after time they can transition into the city.

The PA/NP market has already began saturating. PAs and NPs in Florida and in the metro areas of the east coast have already felt the impacts of saturation in the form of decreased opportunities and decreased reimbursements.

Hell, even @PAtoPharm toIncel was able to return to AA school, so it can be safe to assume that these schools are willing to admit lower-quality candidates.

 

[steveysmith54]

I figured it was bound to happen. I don’t know too much about NP, but my school’s applicant pool for P.A. program way exceeded pharmd. Two years and you’re doing most of the the things that a MD/DO does and earning 100k a year was just like the pharmd story went a 14 years ago. Students caught on, a lot of pharmd prospective students went the P.A. route, just not sustainable.

The dream of pharmacists being plugged to cover shortage of primary care is now officially dead

 

[ldiot]

A NP asked me on Monday if Zosyn had any gram negative coverage

 

[DruggieDoRight]

A NP asked me on Monday if Zosyn had any gram negative coverage

How does I treat Infection?!

 

[PharmtoCS]

Which is why I tell others to study computer science or engineering instead. Most of the healthcare professions are completely saturated, very stressful, and require you to take out a considerable amount of loans.

 

[radio frequency]

A NP asked me on Monday if Zosyn had any gram negative coverage

I’m kind of concerned by the level of antibiotic knowledge I see coming from some of the NPs; it seems many programs must not cover it in the needed depth for good prescribing practices. Obviously this isn’t true for all NPs, but it seems to be a frequent Achilles heel for new NP graduates.

Many of the new NPs especially seem ready for a full-on turf war when I make suggestions for changes to antibiotic regimens. Is this a phenomenon beyond my small practice locale?

I would so much rather get a “dumb” question (truly...I don’t think it’s dumb. Maybe they were stressed and totally forgot) from somebody who wants to learn than some of the snarky responses I’ve had where the decision to proceed with the order as is may truly affect their patient’s outcomes for the worse.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Which is why I tell others to study computer science or engineering instead. Most of the healthcare professions are completely saturated, very stressful, and require you to take out a considerable amount of loans.

Most of the current PharmD students would be lucky to get into a civil engineering program.

They'd never make it as MechE, EE, or CE

 

[BidingMyTime]

I would so much rather get a “dumb” question (truly...I don’t think it’s dumb. Maybe they were stressed and totally forgot) from somebody who wants to learn than some of the snarky responses I’ve had where the decision to proceed with the order as is may truly affect their patient’s outcomes for the worse.

Yeah, at least she asked. Better to field dumb questions, then to have to clean up the mess when NP's have no idea what they are doing and don't know or bother to ask.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

I figured it was bound to happen. I don’t know too much about NP, but my school’s applicant pool for P.A. program way exceeded pharmd. Two years and you’re doing most of the the things that a MD/DO does and earning 100k a year was just like the pharmd story went a 14 years ago. Students caught on, a lot of pharmd prospective students went the P.A. route, just not sustainable.

The dream of pharmacists being plugged to cover shortage of primary care is now officially dead

Having a high applicant pool is only a sign that there is demand. We may (possibly) be at the beginning of a PA/NP saturation, but its going to take years before it becomes nearly as bad as pharmacy. Until then, PA is still one of the hottest healthcare degrees. I've mentioned this in a post before, but the applicant-to-matriculant ratio is >10:1 for PA programs which is significantly higher than for pharmacy programs even at the same university (check OHSU's stats). Furthermore, PA programs can actually pick highly qualified candidates unlike pharmacy.

Also, the idea that pharmacists would be getting provider status and practicing as midlevel providers was dead a long time ago. The MDs/DOs will never allow that, just like how they killed OTC+ (the FDA's Rx to OTC Paradigm Shift), which would have:

1. given pharmacists limited prescribing rights
2. would allow "medications that otherwise would be available only by prescription could be made available OTC with certain "conditions of safe use" such as interventions by a pharmacist or innovative technologies, and manufacturers could submit such an application for review by the agency"

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Most of the current PharmD students would be lucky to get into a civil engineering program.

They'd never make it as MechE, EE, or CE

Its sad when you see a bunch of 2.X GPA students who barely make it through pharmacy school brag about being a "doctor". Shouldn't that be reserved for a profession with standards (like physicians).

 

[W19]

Studies have shown NPs are as good, or even better than physicans 😛...

 

[GypsyHummus]

Would it take about half as long for PAs to become saturated vs how long it took Pharmacists, because it only take two years for PA?

In fact, this story sounds familiar. Healthcare Job, low six figures, schools popping up everywhere. Was it once hard to get into a Pharmacy school (3.4+ GPA) or could you always get in with a 3.0?

 

[disgonbgud]

Most of the current PharmD students would be lucky to get into a civil engineering program.

They'd never make it as MechE, EE, or CE

Its sad when you see a bunch of 2.X GPA students who barely make it through pharmacy school brag about being a "doctor". Shouldn't that be reserved for a profession with standards (like physicians).

Part of me regrets not going into engineering or CS instead of 0+6 Pharm when I had the chance and the admissions, but I'm friends with enough engineers to know that field has just as bad a problem with 2.X GPA grads thinking they're geniuses just because they barely survived a STEM curriculum. Some are living it up in Cali on that Google/Amazon/etc. salary and even stay humble. Others start every conversation with "as an engineer" while earning around HALF our new grad rate and working 80 hours a week at a "startup" that makes crap like bluetooth diapers and wi-fi enabled lotion. Some pharmacists here would rather commit suicide than make that amount, judging by our other threads. 🙄

 

[BidingMyTime]

Also, the idea that pharmacists would be getting provider status and practicing as midlevel providers was dead a long time ago. The MDs/DOs will never allow that, just like how they killed OTC+

That is because pharmacists are nice and asked permission. If we had been like nursing, and just gave ourselves whatever rights we wanted, physicians would not have been able to stop us. Do you think nurses asked physicians for permission to be NP's and prescribe medication? No, their nursing boards just gave them the right, and if the physicians complained, they said they were practicing "nursing" not "medicine", so physicians couldn't tell them what to do.

With PA/NP's, saturation has already hit the big cities, it may not have spread out as much as pharmacists, but that is just a matter of time. Like someone mentioned above, with NP's & PA's only have to do 2 extra years of school (after their bachelor), the saturation will hit even faster than with pharmacy.

And just yesterday, I met a new nurse at the hospital....who told me she is applying to be a NP. There is even a nurse at the hospital in her 50's who is currently in NP school. Maybe it's me, but I can't imagine going back to school in my 50's, I'd just call it a day and work at McDonald's until I turn 65. If nurses closer to retirement then they are to their graduation date are becoming NP's, that screams massive saturation (because it shows how easy and cheap it is to become a NP.)

 

[W19]

Would it take about half as long for PAs to become saturated vs how long it took Pharmacists, because it only take two years for PA?

In fact, this story sounds familiar. Healthcare Job, low six figures, schools popping up everywhere. Was it once hard to get into a Pharmacy school (3.4+ GPA) or could you always get in with a 3.0?

They will find a way to blame physicians when the market become super saturated. It’s already happening in place like south FL where a lot NP are working as floor nurses.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

That is because pharmacists are nice and asked permission. If we had been like nursing, and just gave ourselves whatever rights we wanted, physicians would not have been able to stop us. Do you think nurses asked physicians for permission to be NP's and prescribe medication? No, their nursing boards just gave them the right, and if the physicians complained, they said they were practicing "nursing" not "medicine", so physicians couldn't tell them what to do.
With PA/NP's, saturation has already hit the big cities, it may not have spread out as much as pharmacists, but that is just a matter of time. Like someone mentioned above, with NP's & PA's only have to do 2 extra years of school (after their bachelor), the saturation will hit even faster than with pharmacy.
And just yesterday, I met a new nurse at the hospital....who told me she is applying to be a NP. There is even a nurse at the hospital in her 50's who is currently in NP school. Maybe it's me, but I can't imagine going back to school in my 50's, I'd just call it a day and work at McDonald's until I turn 65. If nurses closer to retirement then they are to their graduation date are becoming NP's, that screams massive saturation (because it shows how easy and cheap it is to become a NP.)

Exactly this.
All of the pharmacy organizations have extremely weak leadership.

Dentists, nurses, they have made the "progress" they have because they have boards that aren't made up of bureaucrats microinspecting literally every I and T for dots and lines, and they just did it.

 

[stinkybritches91]

Its sad when you see a bunch of 2.X GPA students who barely make it through pharmacy school brag about being a "doctor". Shouldn't that be reserved for a profession with standards (like physicians).

Your name is slightly annoying (phake doctor) since not all of us are like that. Having my jimmies rustled, I looked at your profile and see you're a trumper. Makes more sense.

 

[PA_dud3]

Your name is slightly annoying (phake doctor) since not all of us are like that. Having my jimmies rustled, I looked at your profile and see you're a trumper. Makes more sense.

Hey, were not all bad. 🙂

 

[stinkybritches91]

Hey, were not all bad. 🙂

I hope you're keeping your eyes peeled with all this crazy news coming out about Paul Manafort's guilty plea and trump tower! Lots of interesting stuff going on. It's hard to continue to support someone who is surrounded by criminals IMO.

 

[BidingMyTime]

I hope you're keeping your eyes peeled with all this crazy news coming out about Paul Manafort's guilty plea and trump tower! Lots of interesting stuff going on. It's hard to continue to support someone who is surrounded by criminals IMO.

What politician isn't surrounded by criminals?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I hope you're keeping your eyes peeled with all this crazy news coming out about Paul Manafort's guilty plea and trump tower! Lots of interesting stuff going on. It's hard to continue to support someone who is surrounded by criminals IMO.

What an era.

Choose between a criminal orange ***** and someone that mysteriously leaves a trail of bodies everywhere she goes.

 

[Mambo#5]

What politician isn't surrounded by criminals?

Obama wasn’t nor were Clinton or the Bushes. (There are many more) I don’t recall their close associates being locked up. Nor do I recall them bashing the media or constantly lying to the public or supporting Neo-Nazis. I can’t understand how anyone can continue to support this idiot. But as the saying goes.......birds of a feather flock together.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Obama wasn’t nor were Clinton or the Bushes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Obama wasn’t nor were Clinton or the Bushes. (There are many more) I don’t recall their close associates being locked up. Nor do I recall them bashing the media or constantly lying to the public or supporting Neo-Nazis. I can’t understand how anyone can continue to support this idiot. But as the saying goes.......birds of a feather flock together.

I mean, Obama did blow up a US citizen without a trial.

Dubya also ushered in the current authoritarian era.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Make Pharmacy Great Again?

 

[DruggieDoRight]

What an era.

Choose between a criminal orange ***** and someone that mysteriously leaves a trail of bodies everywhere she goes.

STRAYING OUTSIDE OF THE STATUS QUO IS FOR MELVINS

They say there's a subreddit for everyone out there.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Your name is slightly annoying (phake doctor) since not all of us are like that. Having my jimmies rustled, I looked at your profile and see you're a trumper. Makes more sense.

It's amazing that setting my current status as "Living in the United States of Trump!" (as a JOKE) and my current location as "Trump-voting, gun-toting, red state" (as a JOKE) would result in the derailment of so many threads. If I knew this was going to be such a problem, I would've set these things to something less inflammatory.

Also, don't be too quick to judge someone's political views based on facetious statements. It's okay to take our current political climate and generate some parody out of it.

 

[stinkybritches91]

It's amazing that setting my current status as "Living in the United States of Trump!" (as a JOKE) and my current location as "Trump-voting, gun-toting, red state" (as a JOKE) would result in the derailment of so many threads. If I knew this was going to be such a problem, I would've set these things to something less inflammatory.

Also, don't be too quick to judge someone's political views based on facetious statements. It's okay to take our current political climate and generate some parody out of it.

LOL I can't believe you thought you WOULDN'T get things like this with your "joke."

With The Onion headlines about national politics literally reading like actual headlines, I don't think it's clever or humorous to make that your bio...but that's my opinion.

 

[stinkybritches91]

I mean, Obama did blow up a US citizen without a trial.

Dubya also ushered in the current authoritarian era.

If you want to go farther back, let's just start with Reagan and the removal of the fairness doctrine that allowed Fox News and syndicates to push their slow and insidious propaganda. I'll say this once and I'll say it a million more times--f*** Rupert Murdoch 🙂

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

If you want to go farther back, let's just start with Reagan and the removal of the fairness doctrine that allowed Fox News and syndicates to push their slow and insidious propaganda. I'll say this once and I'll say it a million more times--f*** Rupert Murdoch 🙂

Yeah, and don't forget that Reagan laid the foundation for California's racist gun control laws that are the basis for all modern gun control laws

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

STRAYING


ABLOO-BLOOO, SOMEONE MADE FUN OF MY FAVORITE FIGUREHEAD